The Arminian/Wesleyan Dogma of Infant Damnation vs. the Calvinist Doctrine of Infant Salvation

Arminian inconsistencies and errors ^ | 1856 | Rev. Henry Brown

[ShadowAce]

What would be heretical would be the suggestion that any Unregenerate Man would ever freely choose to Follow God while yet in their Spiritually-Dead condition;

..and yet Jesus taught the opposite of that.

[ShadowAce]

So—if David had the choice, don’t our hypothetical parents who murder their children also have that choice?

[UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide]

The Holy Ghost reveals Christ, irrespective of hearing the Word, many times in the Bible, even in the womb in the case of John the Baptist:

Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

"The bottom line is that some infants are saved and some are not"

What's your Scripture for this contention?

Why are you asking me? You gave very good examples yourself of infants saved (Ps.22:9-10) and damned (Ps.58:3). Inductive reasoning follows.

[Christian_Capitalist]

..and yet Jesus taught the opposite of that.

Nope, He didn't. He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

[ShadowAce]

"This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

Yup. Titus also says that grace which brings salvation has appeared to all men.

The Father has enabled all men to come to Him. It's now our free will to make that choice. It's His omniscience that knows what that choice will be.

[Christian_Capitalist]

Why are you asking me? You gave very good examples yourself of infants saved (Ps.22:9-10) and damned (Ps.58:3). Inductive reasoning follows.

Psalm 58 simply afforms that all men are conceived in a state of wickedness. It does not say that all men remain there. Some are Saved.

This "Some" may include all those whom God permits to die in infancy -- at least, the greatest Calvinist theologians have preached that God has Elected to Save all those whom He has permitted to die in infancy, whereas the greatest Arminian/Free-Will theologians have preached that God has ordained to Damn To Hell ALL Infants who die unbaptized.

[ShadowAce]

Nope, He didn't.

I meant to respond to this one also. Sorry.

Yes, He did. "This is my son, who was dead, and is now alive. And the son made his own decision to go to the Father. The Father didn't send anyone after him.

[UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide]

I was going to say the same thing. Predestination is subject to infinite regression.

[Christian_Capitalist]

Yup. Titus also says that grace which brings salvation has appeared to all men. The Father has enabled all men to come to Him. It's now our free will to make that choice. It's His omniscience that knows what that choice will be.

"Appearance" does not equal Regeneration. Titus merely declares that Grace has appeared to all men, not that it has been quickened into all men. In fact, the New Testament specifically states that God does not quicken or regenerate all men, but only His Elect whom He has Chosen based upon no will of their own. The Reprobate have seen the coming of Christ and His grace, its appearance; but, being yet Unregenerate, they always freely choose to Reject Christ, just as the Scriptures declare.

Since "Appearance" in no way equals or even implies Regeneration, you therefore have no case whatsoever. Game, Set, Match, and thanks for playing.

[ShadowAce]

Game, Set, Match, and thanks for playing.

Ahh, OK. I thought we were actually have a theological discussion, and not a game of "gotcha."

OK. I don't play games.

[UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide]

Psalm 58 says no such thing.
You may try to reach that conclusion from other scripture but 58 says “the wicked”.
If all were wicked, then what would be the point of specifying “the wicked”?

[Christian_Capitalist]

Yes, He did. "This is my son, who was dead, and is now alive. And the son made his own decision to go to the Father. The Father didn't send anyone after him.

Just 'cause you assume the inward ministrations of the Holy Spirit had nothing to do with the son's return to his father, does not men that He didn't.

Sorry, you can't just assume away the Holy Spirit to assume your own conclusion. Yet again, you're claiming that Fallen Men will freely choose to perform God-Pleasing choices while still yet Unregenerate, and of course Romans 8:7-8 clearly defines such Humanistic-Free-Will teaching as Satanic.

And, of course: we see the inherent Satanism of Free-Will Arminianism in such execrable Blasphemies as the Free-Will Doctrine of Universal Infant Damnation for infants who die unbaptized. Just one more Satanic belief in a whole Satanic belief-system.

[Christian_Capitalist]

Psalm 58 says no such thing. You may try to reach that conclusion from other scripture but 58 says “the wicked”. If all were wicked, then what would be the point of specifying “the wicked”?

We all start life in a state of wickedness.

Those to whom God unilaterally and monergistically applies Christ's atonement, do not remain wicked in His sight.

[Christian_Capitalist]

Ahh, OK. I thought we were actually have a theological discussion, and not a game of "gotcha." OK. I don't play games.

Buh-Bye!!!

[Christian_Capitalist]

So—if David had the choice, don’t our hypothetical parents who murder their children also have that choice?

Sure, and murdering their child would be Sin.

They can't do it without God Willing to permit it to happen (he could have them struck by lightning instead, if He so Willed), but it's still Sin if they do.

This is really basic, grade-school-level theology. It's disappointing to think that the Satanic doctrines of Arminianism have so infected Protestantism, as to have so eroded the level of even basic theological understanding in the Protestant Church.

[UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide]

We all start life in a state of wickedness.

I buy that. But we all start life as a zygote. By the time of birth and infancy, we are already 9 months old. Numerous examples are cited of God making use of that time (Samson, David, John the Baptist etc.)

[Christian_Capitalist]

I buy that. But we all start life as a zygote. By the time of birth and infancy, we are already 9 months old. Numerous examples are cited of God making use of that time (Samson, David, John the Baptist etc.) I buy that. But we all start life as a zygote. By the time of birth and infancy, we are already 9 months old. Numerous examples are cited of God making use of that time (Samson, David, John the Baptist etc.)

Yes, I agree. I don't know if we agree 100%, but in regard to God operating gracefully upon the souls of infant children still yet unborn, I think that all your examples are well-chosen.

[UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide]

We agree only if we can say both original propositions are wrong.

[Christian_Capitalist]

We agree only if we can say both original propositions are wrong.

Mmm. Well, I disagree with that; I continue to hold with John Calvin's exposition of Scripture on the matter.

But, like I said -- on the particular matter of God operating gracefully upon the souls of infant children still yet unborn, I do think that your examples are well-chosen. So I'll just agree with you on that much.

[Christian_Capitalist]

Interesting how none of FR's Arminians are willing to show up and defend the Free-Willers' god-pope John Wesley and his dogma of Universal Infant Damnation for unbaptized infants.

Funny, that.