Posted on 09/17/2010 6:26:32 AM PDT by Quix
[Quixicated emphases]
Thanks for the ping!
http://www.scripturesongs.net/misc/EscapeFromChristendom.pdf
It is worth the time. I strongly encourage our Rroman Catholic Bros and Sisters but really all Believers to read it.
It is similar to Pilgrim's Progress but with plenty of a modern flare in parts.
I think it is particularly accurate and sobering about RELIGION of every flavor.
Thanks for the recommendation and link!
Quix, you are my great FRiend, thanks for this ... the Strom person could be seen as divisive for some of his stands, and exactly who’s “in” and who’s “out” with this vision is not real clear to me; however, it’s a compelling illustration that brings to mind the parable of the ten handmaidens, five of whom had enough oil to keep their flames lit till the Bridegroom arrived.
The scary part is that no matter which camp we believers pitch our tent in, we think WE are the handmaidens with plenty of oil and that the other camps are the ones who will be caught snoozing and running out of oil.
May God help all of us to find our way.
Thanks for your insights.
sounds like someone needs to take his Haldol, to stop the paranoid hallucinations.
Sorry, but this is merely a way for folks to justify the "religion of me": I know more than the church that is full of sinners, so I'll go out and be my own pure church".
Institutions are part of being human. Get rid of them, and you have chaos. How many thousands or indeed millions of people get medical care, get educated, or hear the word of God because the institution of the church helped them? Get rid of the institution, and every man become his own Pope.
Sounds like the assumption is that
HOLY SPIRIT IS
INCAPABLE
OF LEADING INDIVIDUALS OR GROUPS.
THE WELSH, ASBURY AND OTHER REVIVALS DEMONSTRATED OTHERWISE FOR INITIAL WEEKS TO MONTHS. AND WHEN HUMAN STRUCTURE AND ORGANIZATION WERE IMPOSED ON TOP OF HOLY SPIRIT, THE REVIVALS WITHERED ON THE VINE. HOLY SPIRIT WILL THOROUGLY LEAD, OR DEATH WILL CREEP BACK IN.
YES, God is into DECENTLY AND IN ORDER.
HOWEVER,
THAT
DOES NOT REQUIRE heavy handed, presumptuous, hastey man-handling of situations and groups by vain-glorious power-mongering or even merely folks intent on steadying the Ark of The Covenant on the ox cart.
I observed this phenomena over the last year in my local congregation.
One service, our very dedicated worship leader became suddenly very vulnerably and starkly candid about refusing to go through the motions any more; refusing to try and musically wind emotions up; refusing to give in to CHURCHIANITY--that he just wanted to WORSHIP GOD IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH OR STOP TRYING.
ALMOST IMMEDIATELY HOLY SPIRIT FLOODED IN WITH A VERY GREAT DEMONSTRABLE PRESENCE. Folks rushed to the front in repentance, contrition, candor, earnestly seeking God. Many were healed and delivered on the spot.
Services were thusly ran for a month and much of the 2nd month or so. Holy Spirit always showed up faithfully and people continued to be touched miraculously.
Sermons were abandoned and God was totally in charge of every service. Offerings were not taken. Baskets were placed in the back and I made a plastic lucite box for offerings and placed it on the table in back.
Then folks . . . got nervous that the offerings might be too little.
During Holly Spirit's leading, individuals would share on occasion and Scripture would be taught--but more spontaneously and in very TRUE-TO-LIFE-EXAMPLE kinds of ways.
Yet there became a nervousness about THE WORD not being SUFFICIENTLY TAUGHT.
Soon, services became more routine, structured, organized again. HOLY SPIRIT! HAD TO FOLLOW MAN'S SCRIPT, OR STAND ASIDE--YET AGAIN! Even though lots of lip service was given to HOLY SPIRIT BEING IN CHARGE. Fewer were healed. Fewer were delivered. Fewer were set free. STANDARD ROUTINE RELIGION AND STRUCTURE were IN CHARGE, YET AGAIN.
AND THE DEADILINESS OF RELIGION HAD WON OUT, YET AGAIN.
NO THANKS.
The WHOLE ISRAEL WILDERNESS EXPERIENCE WAS ABOUT GOD LEADING. Initially, God wanted to meet with every individual with a question more or less 'face to face' at the TENT OF MEETING. Israelites were terrified to do so and INSISTED THAT MOSES STAND IN FOR THEM. God relented.
Structure, RELIGION and buffers between God and man became the standard and norm.
The CLOUD by day and FIRE by night did lead them in a measure--they didn't move without the cloud or fire moving. However, there was nothing like a face to face meeting between individuals and God. And individuals lost out accordingly.
On the whole, it was Moses and the hierarchy that touched individual lives more than God seemed to or did. That's a huge loss. We experience God's direct touch so little in our normal lives that we think structure and hierarchy are absolutely necessary and that THAT'S the norm from Heaven.
And the Disciples did establish folks to wait on tables etc.
THEN the waiting on tables AND ETC. BECAME THE RELIGION; THE FOCUS; THE MINISTRY; THE REASON FOR THE ORGANIZATION; THE FOCUS; THE BIG DEAL.
WRONG.
GOD IS THE BIG DEAL--FIRST, FOREMOST, ALWAYS, IN ALL WAYS.
OR DEATH CREEPS BACK IN . . . AND NOT ALWAYS ON LITTLE CAT FEET.
YES! It is incredibly tricky and difficult to insist, insure that HOLY SPIRIT *IS* IN CHARGE 24/7. I've never observed God to let humans off the hook because His standards and expectations were difficult to meet.
He has provided Christ's Blood and Holy Spirit to assist. What's the problem?
The problem(s) are REBELLION; IDOLATRY (RC & PRODDY BOTH); !!!!CONTROL!!!! SPIRIT; PRIDE; FEAR; SELFISHNESS; INSISTANCE ON DOING THINGS *OUR*/*MY* way.
HOLY SPIRIT WILL LARGELY, OVERWHELMINGLY 'LEAVE THE BUILDING' IN EVERY CASE THOSE ELEMENTS ARE PLACED ABOVE HIS MOMENT-BY-MOMENT LEADING AND HIS PRIORITIES.
HAVE WE FORGOTTEN . . . "AND A LITTLE CHILD SHALL LEAD THEM . . . "
But one MUST UNDERSTAND...
The church IS NOT an institution or organization. Its not a denomination.
The CHURCH is INDIVIDUAL believers altogether.
Christ did not come to earth to die and glorify a religious institution. Christ died for people, for individuals. That the God of the universe could have an intimate and very personal relationship with each and every person.
It is people that God has that relationship with, together they are the church.
Us believers on this forum, it doesn't matter whether we claim to be Presbyterian, Assembly of God, Baptist, (but not Catholics, anyone but Catholics), Methodist, Pentecostal or Lutheran...
WE are the church.
I was kidding
GREAT POINTS.
WELL MADE—though I’m glad you clarified the RC joke—I was pretty sure it was a joke. LOL.
Amen, Amen, Amen a thousand times AMEN!
It is people that God has that relationship with, together they are the church.
Amen
I want to throw something out to my Pentecostal brothers and sisters in Christ. In reading Scripture it seems to me that God has stopped communicating to us through Prophets with the end of the Apostolic Era and the closing of the Canon. The answers are written down for us in Scripture.
When people come before Pentecostals claiming visions how is this any different than the people who claim to see Mary floating in the air.
THINGS MUST LINE UP WITH SCRIPTURE
I COR 12-14 SPEAKS OF VETTING ALL ‘EXTRA’ BIBLICAL INPUTS, WORDS, MESSAGES, DREAMS, VISIONS, PROPHECIES.
It’s not flawless.
However, over time, Holy Spirit insures that those with ears to hear and eyes to see get a distilled sense of what God is saying currently.
Scripture does not say whether a 3 year old Honda is better to buy than a 2 year old Ford. Nor which job is the best to take. Nor which specific lovely gal is the best or only spouse to marry.
CHRIST DIED FOR RELATIONSHIP—DIALOGUE WITH INDIVIDUALS BETWEEN GOD AND EACH INDIVIDUAL.
HE SAID
HIS SHEEP
WOULD
HEAR HIS VOICE.
He didn’t lie.
Men always fall into the trap of wanting to lead instead of follow!!
And the games begin again.
God help us!!
sheesh...turn off the capital letters.
Not only shouting with capital letters, but red ones and large print.
INDEED.
I don’t recall hiring you as my
—style editor;
—posting editor;
—font editor;
—color editor;
—writing editor;
or any other kind of editor.
If you wish to read my commentary on such things, you may refer to my home page.
If you wish to read my posts, you will likely have to take them as they are . . .
they are . . .
after all . . .
my posts
and not yours.
But Apostles and Prophets are true offices of the Church (unlike the lion's share of offices claimed to be legitimate today)... Are you suggesting that these offices are now defunct?
Looking at it in the reverse of your proposal, when the Father has grown angry with the religious order in the past (OT), the first thing to go were their true prophets - IOW, it can be said that a lack of current prophecy/prophets is indicative of a religious body that has gone astray... "Running to their prophets with itching ears," rather than to God's own prophets (emphasis upon their prophets...)
[...] The answers are written down for us in Scripture.
Really? Do tell then: What do the seven thunders say in John's Revelation? That one has been bugging me to no end.
Look at the nature of those who watch the Prophecy - Were it not for the prophets in Dispensationalism, the "teachers" of Replacement theology would be leading the whole church blindly to their doom, without the barest inkling that even such an event as the re-establishment of Israel was even significant.
Look at those returning to The Way, who see in fact that Israel and the Old Covenant are still in effect, and coming to the fore. There is a huge swath of Protestantism/Evangelicalism that is turning away from creeds and denominational claptrap to seek a greater understanding within the Oracles of God. That, FRiend, can be no coincidence. Revelation is coming fast and heavy now, and has been there all along, but unseen because of Replacement Theology.
No, there is a great need for prophets. There may be nothing more written down (canon), But it takes a prophet's eye to reveal what IS written down already, even as it comes to pass, right before our eyes... Because the Prophecy cannot be seen without knowing... Knowledge obtained by way of the Holy Spirit.
When people come before Pentecostals claiming visions how is this any different than the people who claim to see Mary floating in the air.
The Prophecy is one, single, organic thing. That which is revealed MUST stand upon the foundations laid by prophets gone before:
Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
(e-Sword: KJV)
True Prophecy... ALL of it... is the testimony of Jesus. It has been the Christ whispering in the ears of the prophets all the way along!
Imagine it as an ancient wall, covered in many places by the dust of time - The great prophets revealed a good chunk of the writing on the wall - sweeping out the cracks and crevices, showing a great expanse. Then the Apostles of Christ came, with power-washer, and blew off a tremendous new expanse - We can see a whole bunch more now than those who came before. But ALL is not complete. "ALL" has not yet been accomplished.
Anyone scraping off a bit more MUST know that it MUST tie into the areas around the bit that they are revealing, because the nature of the wall, and the writing, is that it is one cohesive thing.
Without becoming offensive, an apparition of Mary is simply not in the deal, and the revelations supplied do not fit. That is not to say that our Roman FRiends are the only ones supplied false visions, or that all of their visions are false - The same takes place everywhere - even among the Pentecostals.
What must guide us is the parts of "the wall" that we already see, that are known to be fact. If the new revelation does not fit, does not integrate with the rest of the known true prophets, it simply cannot be true.
Wow. That about says it, huh? Thanks for the link.
Very well put.
THX THX.
Bu Xie,
De Nada,
You’re Welcome.
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