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Paper on Pope's Visit: "This was the End of the British Empire"
TheSacredPage.com ^ | Friday, September 17, 2010 | Michael Barber commenting on British publication

Posted on 09/21/2010 3:49:00 PM PDT by Salvation

Friday, September 17, 2010

Paper on Pope's Visit: "This was the End of the British Empire"

Whoa! Check out this reaction to the papal visit from one English paper (citing another). This visit is becoming of such historical significance it is hard to keep up with all the firsts.

I am going to embolden some points:
How odd that it should be the Guardian that grasped the magnitude of what happened yesterday. Andrew Brown, religion editor of Comment is Free, and the possessor of an intellect as mighty and muddled as that of Rowan Williams, writes:
This was the end of the British Empire. In all the four centuries from Elizabeth I to Elizabeth II, England has been defined as a Protestant nation. The Catholics were the Other; sometimes violent terrorists and rebels, sometimes merely dirty immigrants. The sense that this was a nation specially blessed by God arose from a deeply anti-Catholic reading of the Bible. Yet it was central to English self-understanding when Queen Elizabeth II was crowned in 1952 [sic], and swore to uphold the Protestant religion by law established.
For all of those 400 or so years it would have been unthinkable that a pope should stand in Westminster Hall and praise Sir Thomas More, who died to defend the pope’s sovereignty against the king’s. Rebellion against the pope was the foundational act of English power. And now the power is gone, and perhaps the rebellion has gone, too.
This was indeed a day of unthinkable events. Many Protestants will have been disturbed to see Pope Benedict XVI in Westminster Hall praising St Thomas More (who incidentally died to defend what he saw as the sovereignty of God). I don’t agree, however, that rebellion against the Pope was the “foundational act of English power”. Brown is a Left-wing agnostic whom one would expect to be suspicious of a national myth; but here we go again – we’re told that England discovered its identity as a result of the Reformation. Actually, English industry and culture flourished under the spiritual patronage of Rome; if the country had remained Catholic, they would have continued to do so. (In Germany, cities that remained Catholic were as prosperous as those that become Protestant.)
Indeed, if you want evidence of the self-confidence of our Catholic national identity, look no further than Westminster Abbey and Westminster Hall. For at least the first 500 years of its existence – we can’t be sure when it was founded – the Abbey was obedient to Benedict’s predecessors. So for the Pope to enter it today was an affirmation of its own “foundational act”. Not for nothing did he point out in his address that the church was dedicated to St Peter. Even Catholics who would never be so crude as to say “the Abbey belongs to us, not to you” sensed that history was being re-balanced in some way. They realised that the Pope had as much right to sit in that sanctuary as the Archbishop of Canterbury (who, to be fair, showed the Holy Father a degree of respect that implied that he, at least, recognises the spiritual primacy of the See of Peter even if he rejects some of its teachings).
Of course I’m not denying that for centuries anti-Catholicism was central to English self-understanding, even if it took nearly a century of harrassment and persecution to suppress the old religion. And there are still pockets of intense hatred of Rome in English society today. The difference is that the only anti-Catholics with influence are secularists who aren’t interested enough in the papal claims even to find out what they are. (I’m thinking of Peter Tatchell’s amazingly ignorant Channel 4 documentary.) They hate religion and they pick on Catholics because they’re the softest target. Protestant anti-Catholics, in contrast, don’t have mates in the media or useful allies in the Church of England. All they can do is watch in horror as the Pope of Rome processes into the church where Protestant monarchs are crowned, declares unambigously that he is the successor of St Peter with responsibility for the unity of Christendom, and then walks out again – to hearty applause.
To be honest, I’m still not quite sure what to make of it all myself. Benedict XVI’s speeches are worth reading several times; they often turn out to be more radical than they first appear. But one thing is for sure. Despite the unassuming courtesy of the Pope’s manner, he didn’t give an inch.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholiclist; england; freformed; popebenedictxvi
Barber comments on publication from England.
1 posted on 09/21/2010 3:49:04 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: Salvation

There’s only one problem. There’s no Ronald Reagan to stand up and say, “Mr. President, tear down this wall!”


2 posted on 09/21/2010 3:52:36 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand
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To: nickcarraway; NYer; ELS; Pyro7480; livius; ArrogantBustard; Catholicguy; RobbyS; markomalley; ...

Indeed, the Pope took the English people by a quiet storm called love.

May God sustain the Pope!


3 posted on 09/21/2010 3:53:43 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

The Pope’s way too late - at best, he’s third in line to take possesion of Great Britain, first behind the Communists and second behind the Muslims.


4 posted on 09/21/2010 3:55:23 PM PDT by Talisker (When you find a turtle on top of a fence post, you can be damn sure it didn't get there on it's own.)
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To: Salvation
Yep. B-16 is a heavyweight. ABC is an ultralight.
5 posted on 09/21/2010 3:55:40 PM PDT by hinckley buzzard
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To: Salvation
“The sense that this was a nation specially blessed by God arose from a deeply anti-Catholic reading of the Bible”

Yeah, how many times is England mentioned in the Bible? I don't care how anti-Catholic you try to read the Bible, it is hard to read into it that an unmentioned Island inhabited at the time by unlettered pagan barbarians is specially blessed by God.

And did English history START with Henry VIII, the wife killer? There were no good Catholic English Kings worthy of mention before that august personage who broke with the Catholic Church over his desire for a male heir and ever younger strumpets in his bed?

6 posted on 09/21/2010 4:03:00 PM PDT by allmendream (Income is EARNED not distributed. So how could it be re-distributed?)
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To: Salvation

The British empire died in 1945, upon the elevation of Clement Atlee and the Labour party to the government.


7 posted on 09/21/2010 4:06:08 PM PDT by GenXteacher (He that hath no stomach for this fight, let him depart!)
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To: Salvation

I can’t help but think about the many English martyrs who prayed that this day would come.


8 posted on 09/21/2010 4:19:32 PM PDT by Slyfox
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To: allmendream

Yeah, I love talking about Henry V, wonderful King. Everyone knows him. Devout Catholic who fought to reclaim France. :)

If only he’d lived and we’d never have heard about the Tudors.


9 posted on 09/21/2010 4:20:48 PM PDT by BenKenobi ("Henceforth I will call nothing else fair unless it be her gift to me")
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To: Slyfox

Absolutely.


10 posted on 09/21/2010 4:24:40 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: BenKenobi
Richard wasn't bad either, as far as a historic person, not so great for England; but then again he wasn't exactly English other than his father - who he hated and drove to his death over the imprisonment of his mother (and other concerns).

But come on, it isn't as if Henry VIII was the greatest of all English Kings, and English history begins and ends with his cleaving off from the Catholic church.

11 posted on 09/21/2010 4:27:57 PM PDT by allmendream (Income is EARNED not distributed. So how could it be re-distributed?)
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To: Talisker

The Church of England refuses to stand against the Muslims. I’m wondering if perhaps some in Britain are sensing that the last man standing against the barbarians is the Pope, and that they wish to be standing behind him. It’s just a sense that I have.


12 posted on 09/21/2010 4:32:47 PM PDT by Excellence ("A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it.")
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To: Salvation

Good riddance


13 posted on 09/21/2010 4:33:37 PM PDT by nkycincinnatikid
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To: GenXteacher

Actually at some point in early 1943 the US Navy overtook the Royal Navy in number of capitol ships. Max Hastings (in Winston’s War as I recall) points to that as the end of the British Empire.


14 posted on 09/21/2010 4:34:47 PM PDT by atomic_dog
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To: Salvation

Yes, pray for the Pope daily, as Our Lady Of Fatima specifically requested!


15 posted on 09/21/2010 4:40:16 PM PDT by J Edgar
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To: atomic_dog
Very interesting.

From Trafalgar to 1943, Britain ruled the waves.

An Arab couldn't believe a man would follow a Queen. He told Laurence that ‘My king has a dozen cannons, how many does your QUEEN have?’. He gave some diplomatic answer, but my answer would be....... “Half.”.

“Half of a cannon?”

“No, of all the cannons that there are in the entire World, My Queen has half of them.”

That would be a reasonable assessment at the time, of the cannons worth having at least.

16 posted on 09/21/2010 4:40:18 PM PDT by allmendream (Income is EARNED not distributed. So how could it be re-distributed?)
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To: Talisker

I don’t know. Rome needs to start smacking down the phony liberal American Catholic Church for a start. The phony Notre Dame/Kennedy Catholics who voted for the Islamist and partial birth abortion.

However, the English people may have seen a flickering light. The majority of Brits want to emigrate because co-Islamsists B-LIAR and Browne sent the country down a path of hell. Rowan Williams chimed in with his surrender to sharia. A large silent majority of Brits do not want to go silently.

Hopefully Pope Benedict will awaken these Brits. Something happened during his visit.

To their credit, they have not elected an Islamist to rule them like TV watching idiots in another country brainwashed by TV.


17 posted on 09/21/2010 4:57:21 PM PDT by Frantzie (Imam Ob*m* & Democrats support the VICTORY MOSQUE & TV supports Imam)
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To: Talisker

Exactly, what UK Anglicans are discarding, others are not.

I do find the writer is more than overwrought as simply common sense would say there is a battle of Ideas not Might of the State as no one wishes to go back to the old way of a nice war every 50 yrs or so just to see who is who.


18 posted on 09/21/2010 5:18:57 PM PDT by padre35 (You shall not ignore the laws of God, the Market, the Jungle, and Reciprocity Rm10.10)
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To: Salvation

What has this guy been smoking? The British Empire ended decades ago!


19 posted on 09/21/2010 5:23:46 PM PDT by sailor4321
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To: sailor4321

Or was the author talking more about the Church of England and using the phrase 00 the British Empire?

Should it read

Paper on Pope’s Visit: “This was the End of the Church of England”??


20 posted on 09/21/2010 5:34:17 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: atomic_dog

Keegan and others make the point that the British empire probably died at the Somme in 1916. I’ve read other sources that indicate their intervention in Suez in 1956 might be, and there is a good argument the Falklands War might have been its last gasp. It took Rome nearly 300 years to fall after Commodus’ assassination...Perhaps there is even a case for the end coming starting with a certain failure in 1776.... Hastings’ point is equally valid- historians will be debating the point where the British empire was finished for many years yet.

When thinking about this I am reminded of an episode of Monty Python- they first flashed a screen that said “By 470 the Roman empire lay in ruins...” A few skits later another one came up. “By 1970 the British Empire lay in ruins...”


21 posted on 09/21/2010 5:36:02 PM PDT by GenXteacher (He that hath no stomach for this fight, let him depart!)
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To: Salvation
This was indeed a day of unthinkable events. Many Protestants will have been disturbed to see Pope Benedict XVI in Westminster Hall praising St Thomas More (who incidentally died to defend what he saw as the sovereignty of God)

I couldn't help but marvel at the beautiful mosaic of the Last Supper at Westminster Abbey during Princess Di's funeral (think that's where it was and she was married at St. Pauls?). I marveled then that it was once a Catholic church stolen from them.

But I see strengths and weaknesses on both sides of the great Protestant vs. Catholic divide. Neither side is blameless, and God allowed it where if it hadn't been for free will, He would not have had to. Let it go at that.

22 posted on 09/21/2010 7:30:02 PM PDT by Aliska
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To: GenXteacher

And yet, let us not forget that the British Empire, under Queen Victoria, brought Christianity, even if flawed, to many corners of the world.

And the Anglican Africans are offering a shelter to the AAmerican Episcopalians, who have been so put upon by the far left hierarchy.

This is a tapestry of which we can only see a few threads. God’s plan is unfolding, and we have been privileged to see a portion, when Pope Benedict walked into Westminster.


23 posted on 09/21/2010 7:35:14 PM PDT by Miss Marple
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To: allmendream
Yeah, how many times is England mentioned in the Bible?

About as many times as the Vatican, lol.

24 posted on 09/21/2010 7:37:45 PM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: Salvation

I was under the impression that it effectively died decades ago, too! :))


25 posted on 09/21/2010 8:49:41 PM PDT by sailor4321
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To: RegulatorCountry
LOL! True enough.

I always found it amusing that East and West broke over saying the Mass in Latin or Greek.

Gee, let me thing...as a theological matter, if there is going to be a language to speak to Jesus in, should it be in the language that much of the New testament was written in, or should it be the language of those who nailed Jesus to the cross?

Maybe I shouldn't think too hard.

26 posted on 09/21/2010 8:52:01 PM PDT by allmendream (Income is EARNED not distributed. So how could it be re-distributed?)
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To: Lorica

bookmark


27 posted on 09/21/2010 8:57:04 PM PDT by Lorica
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To: Salvation

Paper on Pope’s Visit: “This was the End of the British Empire”
_________________________________________

No you are nearly 100 years behind the times...

The British Empire started out Catholic...

“the End of the British Empire” was due to religion but not Catholicism...

It was when General Allenby and the British Army and government “cursed” the Jews in the Middle East during WWI ...

From that time on England lost one country after another...

And the sun set on the British Empire...

God promised Abraham “I when bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you..

God’s promise to Abraham has never been rescinded...


28 posted on 09/21/2010 9:01:58 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: atomic_dog; GenXteacher; allmendream
I think that the British Royal Navy first realized that the Empire based on the strength of the Royal Navy was now 'kaput'. Something was amiss when the newly formed British Pacific Fleet arrived in theatre circa December 1944 to join its allied US Navy Fleets. This newly joined British Fleet was destined to become Task Force 57 under US Navy command. See this previous post for more detail.

Hope this helps,


dvwjr

29 posted on 09/21/2010 10:06:56 PM PDT by dvwjr
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To: All
Continue to Pray for Pope Benedict [Ecumenical]
30 posted on 09/21/2010 10:26:27 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Frantzie

With the conservatives surging in America waiting to win major elections on November 2, we could very well be seeing PBO’s Waterloo on that day.


31 posted on 09/22/2010 3:55:10 AM PDT by Biggirl (GO UCONN FOOTBALL!!!!!!!!!!! :)=^..^=)
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To: allmendream

it’s called English Israelism — the idea that the Aryanic English are actually descendents of the lost tribes of Israel. I know — it’s ludicrous and historically and genetically wrong, but there were many who believed it and many who do, you see this in some Baptist groups too.


32 posted on 09/22/2010 4:11:35 AM PDT by Cronos (This Church is holy, the one Church, the true Church, the Catholic Church-St.Augustine)
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To: BenKenobi

Yes, the Battle of Agincourt — if Henry V HAD won, then France would not have had the Revolution as Henry V had a far more democratic (ok, less autocratic) rule than the Bourbons. Plus, if he had won, this woudl have prevented the French-Ottoman alliance and could have potentially changed the face of history globally.


33 posted on 09/22/2010 4:13:16 AM PDT by Cronos (This Church is holy, the one Church, the true Church, the Catholic Church-St.Augustine)
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To: allmendream
Gee, let me thing...as a theological matter, if there is going to be a language to speak to Jesus in, should it be in the language that much of the New testament was written in, or should it be the language of those who nailed Jesus to the cross?

Probably would have been neither -- instead Aramaic and Hebrew.

The dispute was not OVER language but rather because of language (among other things) -- by the 8th century, most Easterners could not understand Latin and the writings of the Byzantines show that they were not much interested in the barbarian west. Also, in the West, the number who spoke any Greek dwindled massively among the clergy -- and the commoners would have no clue ("it's all greek to me!"_)
34 posted on 09/22/2010 4:17:29 AM PDT by Cronos (This Church is holy, the one Church, the true Church, the Catholic Church-St.Augustine)
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To: Cronos
Yes, according to some peculiar sects of Christians, not too keen on actual evidence, history, genetics, linguistics, etc; think just about EVERYBODY is a Jew, except, of course, the Jews.

I have a Jewish friend who I was explaining to that when David Koresh read the Bible and it said “Jew” he read “Honkey” and where it said “Zion” he read “Waco Texas”. He laughed his head off! He had never heard such a ludicrous thing!

35 posted on 09/22/2010 6:18:31 AM PDT by allmendream (Income is EARNED not distributed. So how could it be re-distributed?)
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To: Cronos

I don´t get ya´... If?


36 posted on 09/22/2010 8:06:16 AM PDT by onedoug
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To: allmendream

Check out

British-Israel, Fact or Fiction?
http://www.orange-street-church.org/text/british-israel%20fact%20or%20fiction.htm


37 posted on 09/22/2010 8:22:36 AM PDT by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: jjotto
What a raving loon!

As I said before, some people don't seem to care about little things like evidence, history, genealogy, linguistics, etc.

No, they would rather invent an improbable history and think that when the Bible says “Jew” they mean “British” and when the Bible says “Zion” they mean “Staffordshire” or some such.

What delusional clap trap!

38 posted on 09/22/2010 8:28:09 AM PDT by allmendream (Income is EARNED not distributed. So how could it be re-distributed?)
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To: allmendream
... or should it be the language of those who nailed Jesus to the cross?

There is a very good chance that the guys who hammered the nails were speaking Greek. It was the more popular language in that corner of the Roman Empire at that time especially among the professional soldiers.

39 posted on 09/22/2010 8:36:17 AM PDT by Ditto (Nov 2, 2010 -- Time to Clean House.)
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To: Cronos

He did win at Agincourt. That’s the funny thing. All it took was a bout with Dysentery and dying before the sick French king. He was 35 and it was a matter of 2 months.


40 posted on 09/22/2010 9:48:39 AM PDT by BenKenobi ("Henceforth I will call nothing else fair unless it be her gift to me")
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To: allmendream
...when the Bible says “Zion” they mean “Staffordshire” or some such...

And did those feet in ancient time
Walk upon England's mountains green
And was the holy lamb of God
On England's pleasant pastures seen

And did the countenance divine
Shine forth upon our clouded hills
And was Jerusalem builded here
Among those dark Satanic mills

- popular British hymn with lyrics by William Blake

41 posted on 09/22/2010 9:57:45 AM PDT by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: allmendream
David Koresh read the Bible and it said “Jew” he read “Honkey” and where it said “Zion” he read “Waco Texas

Whoa and Seventh Day Adventist folks followed this nutjob?
42 posted on 09/23/2010 12:06:29 AM PDT by Cronos (This Church is holy, the one Church, the true Church, the Catholic Church-St.Augustine)
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To: onedoug

Sorry, just playing my speculative “what-if” history games! like What if Sargon of Akkad had created a lasting dynasty? Or what if the Persians had conquered Greece? Or What if Trajan had conquered Sassanid Persia and Khorastan and Arabia Felix — would Islam have been stamped out at it’s inception?


43 posted on 09/23/2010 12:08:15 AM PDT by Cronos (This Church is holy, the one Church, the true Church, the Catholic Church-St.Augustine)
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To: jjotto

Firstly — there are no such gravestones in Crimea. Secondly, the English are Saxons and Angles and Jutes — part of the Germanic branch of Aryans, not related to the Semites. The lost tribes either came back or melted into the populations of IRaq and IRan (where the Assyrian Empire was).


44 posted on 09/23/2010 12:15:02 AM PDT by Cronos (This Church is holy, the one Church, the true Church, the Catholic Church-St.Augustine)
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To: Salvation

I think the British Empire has been dead for quite some time.


45 posted on 09/23/2010 12:17:01 AM PDT by Enchante ("The great enemy of clear language is insincerity." -- George Orwell --)
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To: Cronos
I think you are a long way gone from mainstream Seventh Day Adventist when, to lead the congregation, you have to change your name from Vernon Howell to “David Koresh”, to take the place of the LAST “David Koresh”, who changed his name to replace the one before......
46 posted on 09/23/2010 6:34:28 AM PDT by allmendream (Income is EARNED not distributed. So how could it be re-distributed?)
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