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HEAVEN [& The Resurrection--Quix Book Review & commentary]
Book and the strange space between Quix's ears | 23 Sep 2010 | Randy Alcorn & Quix

Posted on 09/23/2010 10:56:33 PM PDT by Quix

BOOK: HEAVEN by Randy Alcorn

Here's some selected quotes from the first 130 pages:

pp10-11
Jesus said of the devil, 'When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies' (John 8:44). Some of Satan's favorite lies are about Heaven. Revelation 13:6 tells us the satanic beast 'opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven.' Our enemy slanders three things: God's person, God's people, and God's place--namely, Heaven.4

p15
The writers of Scripture present Heaven in many ways, including as a garden, a city, and a kingdom. Because gardens, cities and kingdoms are familiar to us, they afford us a bridge to understanding Heaven. However, many people make the mistake of assuming that these are merely analogies with no actual correspondence to the reality of Heaven (which would make them poor analogies).
[Quixicated added paragraphing & color emphases--no wording changed] Analogies can be pressed too far, but because Scripture makes it clear that Jesus is preparing a place for us, and God's Kingdom will come to EArth, and a physical resurrection awates us, there's no reason to spiritualize or allegorize all earthly descriptions of Heaven.
Indeed, some of them may be simple, factual statements. Too often we've been taught that Heven is a non-physical realm, which cannot have real gardens, cities, kingdoms, buildings, banquets, or bodies. So we fail to take seriously what Scripture tells us about Heaven as a familiar, physical, tangible, place.

p.18
Think of friends or family members who loved Jesus and are with him now. Picture them with you, walking together in this place. All of you have powerful bodies, stronger than those of an Olympic decathlete. You are laughing, playing, talking, and reminiscing. You reach up to a tree to pick an apple or orange. You take a bite. It's so sweet that it's startling. You've never tasted anything so good. Now you see someone coming toward you. It's Jesus, with a big smile on his face. You fall to your knees in worship. He pulls you up and embraces you.
At last, you're with the person you were made for, in the place you were made to be. Everywhere you go there will be new people and places to enjoy, new things to discover. What's that you smell? A feast. A party's ahead. And you're invited. There's exploration and work to be done--and you can't wait to get started.
I have a biblical basis for all of these statements, and many more. . . .

p21
. . . C.S. Lewis observed, 'If you read history, you will find that the Christians who most for the present world were just those who thought most of the next. . . . It is since Christians have largely ceased to think of the otehr world that they have become so ineffective in this. Aim at Heaven and you will get earth 'thrown in': aim at earth and you will get neither."31

p26
C.S. Lewis said, "I have met no people who fully disbelieved in Hell and also had a living and life-giving belief in Heaven."38 The biblical teaching on both destinations stands or falls together.

p27
Teresa of Avila, a sixteenth-century Carmelite nun, had an agonizing vision of hell. She later wrote of the torment she endured:

I was terrified by all this, and, thought it happened nearly six years ago, I still am as I wrote:even as I sit here, fear seems to be depriving my body of its natural warmth. I never recall any time when I have been suffering trials or pains and when everything that we can suffer on earth has seemed to me of the slightest importance by comparison with this . . . It has been of the greatest benefit to me, both in taking from me all fear of the tribulations and disappointments of this life and also in strengthening me to suffer them and to give thanks to the Lord, Who, as I now believe, has delivered me from such terrible and never-ending torments.41

.

If we understand Hell even the slightest bit, none of us would ever say, 'Go to Hell.' It's far too easy to go to Hell. It requires no change of course, no navigational adjustments. We were born with our autopilot set toward Hell. It is nothing to take lightly--Hell is the single greatest tragedy in the universe.

God loves us enough to tell us the truth--there are two eternal destinations, not one, and we must choose the right path if we are to go to Heaven. All roads do not lead to Heaven. Only one does: Jesus Christ. He said, 'No one comes to the Father except through me' John 14:6). . . .

p28
. . . 'You were bought at a price' (1 Corinthians 6:20). The price paid was exhorbitant--the shed blood of God's Son, Jesus Christ.

Consider the wonder of it: God determined that he would rather go to Hell on our behalf than live in Heaven without us. He so much wants us not to go to Hell that he paid a horrible price on the cross so we wouldn't have to.

. . .

Jesus asks a haunting question in Mark 8:36-37: 'What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?'

p31
Some of you will read in the newspaper that I am dead. Don't believe it for a moment. I will be more alive than ever before. --D.L.Moody

. . . Guards were posted at the city gates to keep out criminals and enemies by checking their names against the list. This is the context for Revelation 21:27: 'Nothing impure will ever enter [the city], nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.'

p42
WILL WE LIVE IN HEAVEN FOREVER?

The answer to the question, Will we live in Heaven forever? depends on what we mean by Heaven. Will we be with the Lord forever? Absolutely. Willw e always be with him in exactly the same place that Heaven is now? No. In the present Heaven, we'll be in Christ's presence, and we'll be joyful, but we'll be looking forward to our bodily resurrection and permanent relocation to the New Earth.

It bears repeateing because it is so commonly misunderstood: When we die, believers in Christ will not go to the Heaven where we'll live forever. Instead, we'll go to an intermediate Heaven. In that Heaven--where those who died covered by Christ's blood are now--we'll await the time of Christ's return to the earth, our bodily resurrection, the final judgment, and the creation of the new heavens and New Earth. If we fail to grasp this truth, we will fail to understand the biblical doctrine of Heaven.

p45
. . . I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God....and I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, 'Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his poeple, and God himself will be with them and be their God' (Revelation 21:1-3). Heaven, God's dwelling place, will one day be on the New Earth.

. . .

That God would come down to the New Earth to live with us fits perfectly with his original plan. God could have taken Adam and Even up to Heaven to visit with him in his world. Insead, he came down to walk with them in their world (Genesis 3:8). Jesus says of anyone who would be his disciple, 'My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him' (John 14:23).That is the picture of God's ultimate plan--not to take us up to live in a realm made for him, but to come down and live with us in the realm he made for us.

p46
. . .The Incarnation is about God inhabiting space and time as a human being--the new heavens and New Earth are about God making space and time his eternal home. As Jesus is God incarnate, so the New Earth will be Heaven incarnate.

p.47
Every reference in Revelation to human beings talking and worshiping in Heaven prior to the resurrection of the dead demonstrates that our spiritual beings are conscious, not sleeping, after death.

P48
The Bible teaches that sometimes humans are allowed to see into Heaven. When Stephen was being stoned because of his faith in Christ, he gazed into Heaven: “Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. ‘Look,’ he said, ‘I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God’ (Acts 7:55-56). Scripture tells us not that Stephen dreamed this, but that he actually saw it.

Wayne Grudem points out that Stephen ‘did not see mere symbols of a state of existence. It was rather that his eyes were opened to see a spiritual dimension of reality which God has hidden from us in this present age, a dimension which none the less really does exist in our space/time universe, and within which Jesus now lives in his physical resurrected body, waiting even now for a time when he will return to earth.’ 49 I agree with Grudem that the present Heaven is a space/time universe. He may be right that it’s part of our own universe, or it may be in a different universe. It could be a universe next door that’s normally hidden but sometimes opened. In either case, it seems likely that God didn’t merely create a vision for Stephen in order to make Heaven appear physical. Rather, he allowed Stephen to see an intermediate Heaven that was (and is) physical.

P49
The prophet Elisha asked God to give his servant, Gehazi, a glimpse of the invisible realm. He prayed, ‘O Lord, open his eyes so he may see.’ Then the Lord opened the servant’s eyes, and he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha’ (2 Kings 6:17). . . .

P53
In Milton’s story, the angel Raphael asks Adam,

What if Earth
Be but the shadow of Heav’n, and things therein
Each to other like, more than on Earth is thought?50

.

Many commentators dismiss the possibility that any of these passages in Revelation should be taken literally . . . But the book of Hebrews isn’t apocalyptic, it’s epistolatry. It says that earthly priests ‘serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven’ (Hebrews 8:5). Moses was told, in building the earthly tabernacle, ‘See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain’ (Hebrews 8:5). If that which was built after the pattern was physical, might it suggest the original was also physical?

P59
. . . our future bodily resurrection, which Paul emphatically establishes in 1 Corinthians 15:12-32. In fact, it would only be on the basis of the certainty of a future resurrection that temporary bodies might be given. . .

. . .

If Christ’s body in the present Heaven has physical properties, it stands to reason that others in Heaven might have physical forms as well, even if only temporary ones. It also makes sense that other aspects of the present Heaven would have physical properties—so that, for example, when Christ is seen standing at the right hand of God (Acts 7:56), he is actually standing on something. Otherwise we would have to conclude that the resurrected (and thus, embodied) Christ has been floating for two thousand years in a realm without material substance. (He could, of course, but does he?) If we know there is physical substance in Heaven (namely, Christ’s body), can we not also assume that other references to physical objects in Heaven, including physical forms and clothing, are literal rather than figurative?

P79
Scripture speaks of a New Jerusalem made of precious stones. Some of the jewels listed in Revelation 21:19-21 are among the hardest substances known. They indicate the material solidity of the New Earth.

The problem is not that the Bible doesn’t tell us much about Heaven. It’s that we don’t pay attention to what it tells us.

P80
Jesus told the disciples, ‘I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am’ (John 14:3), He uses ordinary, earthly, spatial terms to describe Heaven. The word where refers to a place, a location. Likewise, the phrase come back and take you indicates movement and a physical destination.

If heaven isn’t a place, would Jesus have said it was? If we reduce Heaven to something less than or other than a place, we strip Christ’s words of their meaning.

p81
Will the Eden we long for return? Will it be occupied by familiar, tangible, physical features and fully embodied people? The Bible clearly answers yes.

P87
Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. (Isaiah 65:17)
.
‘As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,’ declares the Lord, ‘so will your name and descendants endure.’ (Isaiah 66:22)

.

P105
Through Christ’s redemptive work, he ‘disarmed the powers and authorities’ and ‘made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them’ (Colossians 2:15). . . .

Note that it says Christ came not to destroy the world he created, but to destroy the works of the devil, which were to twist and pervert and ruin what God had made. Redemption will forever destroy the devil’s work by removing its hold on creation, and reversing its consequences. It is Satan’s desire to destroy the world. God’s intent is not to destroy the world but to deliver it from destruction. His plan is to redeem this fallen world, which he designed for greatness.

Redeemed mankind will reign with Christ over the earth. . . .

P112
Of Americans who believe in a resurrection of the dead, two-thirds believe they will not have bodies after the resurrection.84 But this is self-contradictory. A non-physical resurrection is like a sunless sunrise. There is no such thing. Resurrection means that we will have bodies. If we didn’t have bodies, we wouldn’t be resurrected!

. . . R.A. Torrey writes, ‘We will not be disembodied spirits in the world to come, but redeemed spirits in redeemed bodies, in a redeemed universe.’ 85 If we don’t get it right on the resurrection of the body, we’ll get nothing else right. It’s therefore critical that we not merely affirm the resurrection of the dead as a point of doctrine but that we understand the meaning of the resurrection we affirm.

P113
Death is an abnormal condition because it tears apart what God created and joined together. God intended for our bodies to last as long as our souls. Those who believe in Platonism or in preexistent spirits see a disembodied soul as natural and even desierable. The Bible sees it as unnatural and undesirable. We are unified beings. That’s why the bodily resurrection of the dead is so vital. And that’s why Job rejoiced that in his flesh he would see God (job 19:26).

Any views of the afterlife that settle for less than a bodily resurrection—including Christoplatonism, reincarnation, and transmigration of the soul—are explicitly unchristian. The early church waged major doctrinal wars against Gnosticism and Manichaeism, dualistic worldviews that associated God with the spiritual realm of light and Satan with the physical world of darkness. These heresies contradicted the biblical account that says God was pleased with the entire physical realm, all of which he created and called ‘very good’ (Genesis 1:31) The truth of Christ’s resurrection repudiated the philosophies of Gnosticism and Manichaeism. Nevertheless, two thousand years later, these persistent heresies have managed to take hostage our modern theology of Heaven.

P114
Wishful thinking is not the reason why, deep in our hearts, we desire a resurrected life on a resurrected Earth instead of a disembodied existence in a spiritual realm. Rather, it is precisely because God intends for us to be raised to a new life on the New Earth that we desire it. It is God who created us to desire what we are made for. It is God who ‘set eternity in the hearts of men’ (Ecclesiastes 3:11). It is God who designed us to live on Earth and to desire the earthly life. And it is our bodily resurrection that will allow us to return to an earthly life—this time freed from sin and the Curse.

That’s God’s idea, not ours. Our desires simply correspond to God’s intentions, because he implanted his intentions into us in the form of our desires.

P115
Continuity is evident in passages that discuss resurrection, including 1 Corinthians 15:53: ‘For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.’ It is (the perishable and mortal) which puts on that (the imperishable and immortal). Likewise, it is we, the very same people who wlak this earth, who will walk the New Earth. ‘And so we will be with the Lord forever’ (1 Thessalonians 4:17, emphasis added).

.

I’ll place my commentary in the comments section below.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Charismatic Christian; Ministry/Outreach; Theology
KEYWORDS: heaven; newearth; newheaven; resurrection
The article about the Pope's evident here:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2595216/posts?page=57#57

Is quite dismaying, to me.

However, I believe that all systems of man apart from Holy Spirit eventually get right back around to the heretical notions from hell that have been around for many centuries longer even than the Vatican.

I believe that article outlining the dismaying perspective proffered by the Pope on essentially trashing the Biblical truth of a bodily resurrection is just another sign that the Vatican and even this--in many ways--admirable Pope--have already signed on to the theology of hell and the New World Order scripted and designed in hell.

However, I'd prefer to spring-board from that important disucssion on that thread to a Proddy, evangelical discussion of THE NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH as well as THE BODILY RESURRECTION OF BELIEVERS as outlined by Alcorn's book excerpted above.

I found Alcorn's presentation so far--130 pages into a total of 533 pages--to be extremely Biblical and well researched as well as extremely well thought-out.

And, I believe it is a very timely book.

The looming traumas are going to be extremely tangible and nitty gritty regardless of whether Believers experience merely the birth pangs of such or a bigger chunk of such. We NEED the perspective of a very tangible Heaven and New Earth to capture our imaginations, our spirits, our minds and thereby infect us with more of Holy Spirit's hope--our HOPE IN GOD and the RESURRECTION LIFE WITH HIM THAT CHRIST'S RESURRECTION AND BLOOD PROVIDE FOR US.

Anything less is simply inadequate as well as UnBiblical.

Alcorn lays a meticulous foundation for a tangible Heaven and a tangible bodily Resurrection as well as a multiverse restored to perfection without the plague of disintegration, destruction, death or even running down like an unwound clock.

He, rightly, imho, notes that the sin polluted ALL CREATION--which groans expectantly for the manifestation of the sons of God--evidently to help set things to right as we rule and reign with Christ--not over harps and clouds but over tangible real worlds and real peoples in real bodies--Alcorn rightly and Biblicaly notes that God will be setting all creation to rights and finally again freed from sin and sin's consequences.

I believe he does this masterfully and with almost a mind-numbing thoroughness. Though, thankfully, it really is an easy read. I just find it better in bite-sized chunks which allow prayerful pondering between the chunks.

I rarely find anything to quibble with. And, he is clear about asserting which sentences are his own opinions vs which are clearly demonstrated in exceedingly plausible if not necessary Biblical interpretations.

I believe the book and the accompanying small group DVD are well worth the time and investment in energy. It should make a powerful and hope filled group experience as well as an individual read.

I very strongly recommend it.

1 posted on 09/23/2010 10:56:37 PM PDT by Quix
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To: Alamo-Girl; Amityschild; AngieGal; AnimalLover; Ann de IL; aposiopetic; aragorn; auggy; ...

PING TO END TIMES AND CONSULANT’S GROUPS.

I believe the above bits from HEAVEN—as well as the whole book and small group DVD included—by Randy Alcorn can be a significant encouragement in these darkening times.


2 posted on 09/23/2010 10:59:01 PM PDT by Quix (PAPAL AGENT DESIGNEE: Resident Filth of non-Roman Catholics; RC AGENT DESIGNATED: "INSANE")
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To: Quix
Read this last year. Awesome book.
3 posted on 09/23/2010 11:05:51 PM PDT by Othniel (Meddlng in human affairs for over 1/20th of a millennium.......)
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To: Othniel

Thanks much for your kind reply.

I AGREE. It is one of the more awesome books I’ve read in more than a decade.

What did you find particularly moving, enriching, edifying in it?


4 posted on 09/23/2010 11:11:48 PM PDT by Quix (PAPAL AGENT DESIGNEE: Resident Filth of non-Roman Catholics; RC AGENT DESIGNATED: "INSANE")
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To: Quix

Do you think it odd that the Pope says the Nicene Creed during every Mass and the Apostle’s Creed at the start of every Rosary?

Nicene Creed - “We look for the resurrection of the dead...”
Apostles Creed - “ I believe in the...resurrection of the body”

Or is it just so easy to buy lies?


5 posted on 09/23/2010 11:23:05 PM PDT by AnneM62
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To: AnneM62; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; GiovannaNicoletta; Godzilla; ...

Lies?

Quotes from the Pope’s own words are lies?

Fascinating.

However, Proddys are used to the Vatican claiming to be on all sides of an issue

so that,

at all costs . . .

in all contexts . . .

for a list of trumped up rationalizations and excuses . . .

THE INSTITUTION OF MAN’S THEOLOGY

AND MAN’S !!!!TRADITIONS!!!!

IS PROTECTED.

His praise of globalism encyclical also was hugely self-contradictory.

Why should we expect anything he says to be less self-contradictory.

It’s not the Proddys believing lies from the Vatican . . .


6 posted on 09/23/2010 11:27:13 PM PDT by Quix (PAPAL AGENT DESIGNEE: Resident Filth of non-Roman Catholics; RC AGENT DESIGNATED: "INSANE")
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To: Quix
The way Alcorn went through every aspect of Heaven, why the new heaven is such an ignored biggie, and all the answers to questions people have had about it. Very inspiring. Sent me looking in the Word at the verses he cited.
7 posted on 09/23/2010 11:28:57 PM PDT by Othniel (Meddlng in human affairs for over 1/20th of a millennium.......)
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To: Othniel

I greatly appreciate the degree it’s all founded IN THE WORD.

And that he notes quite clearly when he’s expressing personal opinion or personal speculation.

I agree. Very inspiring.

And I need to get to bed! LOL.


8 posted on 09/23/2010 11:39:16 PM PDT by Quix (PAPAL AGENT DESIGNEE: Resident Filth of non-Roman Catholics; RC AGENT DESIGNATED: "INSANE")
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To: Quix
Quotes from the Pope’s own words are lies?

Whoosh...

9 posted on 09/24/2010 12:52:32 AM PDT by AnneM62
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To: Quix

MY G_d, is THE most AWESOME G_d!


10 posted on 09/24/2010 1:20:28 AM PDT by rawcatslyentist (Jeremiah 50:31 Behold, I am against you, O you most proud, said the Lord God of hosts.)
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To: Quix
Mr. Alcorn seems deeply confused on certain matters and offers little to support his assertion. Example:

“WILL WE LIVE IN HEAVEN FOREVER?

The answer to the question, Will we live in Heaven forever? depends on what we mean by Heaven. Will we be with the Lord forever? Absolutely. Willw e always be with him in exactly the same place that Heaven is now? No. In the present Heaven, we'll be in Christ's presence, and we'll be joyful, but we'll be looking forward to our bodily resurrection and permanent relocation to the New Earth.

It bears repeateing because it is so commonly misunderstood: When we die, believers in Christ will not go to the Heaven where we'll live forever. Instead, we'll go to an intermediate Heaven. In that Heaven—where those who died covered by Christ's blood are now—we'll await the time of Christ's return to the earth, our bodily resurrection, the final judgment, and the creation of the new heavens and New Earth. If we fail to grasp this truth, we will fail to understand the biblical doctrine of Heaven.”

What he's describing is just the limbo of Catholic imagination but on an elevator.

11 posted on 09/24/2010 2:20:13 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Quix

Great stuff. Sounds like an awesome book. Thanks for the post.


12 posted on 09/24/2010 2:26:24 AM PDT by RightOnline
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To: Quix

> the book and the accompanying small group DVD

I just looked up the book on Amazon, but there was no mention of an accompanying DVD. Did you buy that separately?


13 posted on 09/24/2010 3:22:20 AM PDT by Westbrook (Having children does not divide your love, it multiplies it.)
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To: Quix

Good morning Quix, thanks for this review. It is always interesting to read your threads. I’ll give this book a look see.


14 posted on 09/24/2010 4:10:55 AM PDT by RoadGumby (For God so loved the world)
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To: Quix
The writers of Scripture present Heaven in many ways, including as a garden, a city, and a kingdom.

He gets it wrong right at page 15. Although he's right about the physicality of the Resurrection for everybody & that Heaven is a tangible location.

15 posted on 09/24/2010 4:20:58 AM PDT by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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To: Quix

bookmark for later


16 posted on 09/24/2010 5:08:34 AM PDT by fightinJAG (Step away from the toilet. Let the housing market flush.)
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To: rawcatslyentist

AMEN! TO THE MAX.


17 posted on 09/24/2010 5:15:21 AM PDT by Quix (PAPAL AGENT DESIGNEE: Resident Filth of non-Roman Catholics; RC AGENT DESIGNATED: "INSANE")
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To: count-your-change

Not so.

That is NOT what he is describing by a long shot.

Have you read the book?


18 posted on 09/24/2010 5:16:37 AM PDT by Quix (PAPAL AGENT DESIGNEE: Resident Filth of non-Roman Catholics; RC AGENT DESIGNATED: "INSANE")
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To: RightOnline

INDEED. A truly wonderful book in the classic tradition of truly wonderful book.

Had it been a few centuries earlier, it would have had beautiful illuminations.

It’s that level of wonderful book.

Yet it is far from stuffy.


19 posted on 09/24/2010 5:17:44 AM PDT by Quix (PAPAL AGENT DESIGNEE: Resident Filth of non-Roman Catholics; RC AGENT DESIGNATED: "INSANE")
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To: Westbrook

No. The DVD is affixed to the inside of the back—forgetting the technical term—back cover/end page.

I bought it from FAMILY CHRISTIAN BOOKSTORE.


20 posted on 09/24/2010 5:19:16 AM PDT by Quix (PAPAL AGENT DESIGNEE: Resident Filth of non-Roman Catholics; RC AGENT DESIGNATED: "INSANE")
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To: RoadGumby

Thanks for your kind words.

I think you’ll find it well worth your time.


21 posted on 09/24/2010 5:19:51 AM PDT by Quix (PAPAL AGENT DESIGNEE: Resident Filth of non-Roman Catholics; RC AGENT DESIGNATED: "INSANE")
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To: 1010RD

The writers of Scripture present Heaven in many ways, including as a garden, a city, and a kingdom.


IS a correct sentence.

I have no idea why you’d say it’s wrong.


22 posted on 09/24/2010 5:44:24 AM PDT by Quix (PAPAL AGENT DESIGNEE: Resident Filth of non-Roman Catholics; RC AGENT DESIGNATED: "INSANE")
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To: fightinJAG

Thx for stopping by.


23 posted on 09/24/2010 5:44:48 AM PDT by Quix (PAPAL AGENT DESIGNEE: Resident Filth of non-Roman Catholics; RC AGENT DESIGNATED: "INSANE")
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To: Quix
No, I haven't read “the book” and have no intention of doing so. There does not appear to be anything there that is either enlightening or useful in terms of understanding the Scriptures.

And yes, he describes this “intermediate heaven” like a holding pen, limbo. The faithful die, are taken to this heaven to awaite a bodily resurrection to “the New Earth”, which is I assume is a replacement for the old earth. Up on the elevator and then back down.

Thank you for the excerpts, I can save the price of the book.

24 posted on 09/24/2010 7:31:56 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Quix
p31 Some of you will read in the newspaper that I am dead. Don't believe it for a moment. I will be more alive than ever before. --D.L.Moody

LOVE IT!

FWIW, he was not a pastor. He was an elder in the church. He started the Sunday School program by driving a horse drawn wagon through the slums of Chicago picking up children so they could go to church and hear The Gospel. The church grew so much that they had to build a bigger church!

25 posted on 09/24/2010 7:35:09 AM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: Quix

Which scriptures is he referring to describing Heaven?

Does he also cover Hell?


26 posted on 09/24/2010 7:49:29 AM PDT by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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To: Quix

Thanks for the ping!


27 posted on 09/24/2010 8:38:27 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: count-your-change

Fascinating that such a perspective could be mangled out of my excerpts.

No wonder Scripture proves such a problem for plain undrestanding for so many RC’s.


28 posted on 09/24/2010 9:00:57 AM PDT by Quix (PAPAL AGENT DESIGNEE: Resident Filth of non-Roman Catholics; RC AGENT DESIGNATED: "INSANE")
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To: wmfights

PRAISE GOD.


29 posted on 09/24/2010 9:01:36 AM PDT by Quix (PAPAL AGENT DESIGNEE: Resident Filth of non-Roman Catholics; RC AGENT DESIGNATED: "INSANE")
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To: 1010RD

I don’t know that he listed Scriptures for every such comment. I’d have to check. My own awareness would say there are several, at least.

Yes, he gets into hell. There was an excerpt that mentioned that.

Did you even read the original post?


30 posted on 09/24/2010 9:02:45 AM PDT by Quix (PAPAL AGENT DESIGNEE: Resident Filth of non-Roman Catholics; RC AGENT DESIGNATED: "INSANE")
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To: Quix
Wonderful!!

Thanks, Quix!

31 posted on 09/24/2010 9:47:26 AM PDT by jackv (The darkness hates the light!)
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To: Quix; count-your-change
No wonder Scripture proves such a problem for plain undrestanding for so many RC’s.

Well this should be interesting.

32 posted on 09/24/2010 10:01:43 AM PDT by Legatus (Keep calm and carry on)
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To: Quix
I quoted the excerpts that said just that. Sorry if you confuse Alcorn’s commentary with understanding but if it's anything more than some sort of ‘free association’ it certainly wasn't obvious there.

“No wonder Scripture proves such a problem for plain undrestanding for so many RC’s.”

I'm not really concerned with he's an “RC” or not.

33 posted on 09/24/2010 10:03:24 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: jackv

Thanks for your kind reply.


34 posted on 09/24/2010 10:04:10 AM PDT by Quix (PAPAL AGENT DESIGNEE: Resident Filth of non-Roman Catholics; RC AGENT DESIGNATED: "INSANE")
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To: 1010RD; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; GiovannaNicoletta; ..

RANDY ALCORN IN HEAVEN:

The writers of Scripture present Heaven in many ways, including as a garden, a city, and a kingdom.


101ORD:
He gets it wrong right at page 15.


SCRIPTURE:

Revelation 21:2
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Matthew 5:3
Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

And Biblical descriptions of the River of Life, the trees etc. describe a garden like setting.


Thanks for being WRONG, yet again, 101ORD;


35 posted on 09/24/2010 10:13:56 AM PDT by Quix (PAPAL AGENT DESIGNEE: Resident Filth of non-Roman Catholics; RC AGENT DESIGNATED: "INSANE")
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To: Legatus
From the Congregator:

“And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books [there is] no end; and much study [is] a weariness of the flesh.” (Eccl. 12:12)

One must be selective to be sure.

36 posted on 09/24/2010 10:21:23 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Quix

Thanks for posting this Quiz.


37 posted on 09/24/2010 3:14:58 PM PDT by Screaming_Gerbil (Life is God's gift to you. The way you live your life is your gift to God. Make it a fantastic one.)
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To: Screaming_Gerbil

THX THX.

YOU ARE WELCOME.


38 posted on 09/24/2010 3:29:04 PM PDT by Quix (PAPAL AGENT DESIGNEE: Resident Filth of non-Roman Catholics; RC AGENT DESIGNATED: "INSANE")
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To: Quix
To be WRONG, yet again I'd have to have been wrong before, but I amn't! (I just made up that word)

Are you indicating that: Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband is the scripture he's referring to?

You do note that the holy city, new Jerusalem is coming down from God and out of heaven, correct?

Those are two prepositional phrases and being away from God and away from heaven would mean that the new Jerusalem isn't Heaven. Though it might be a very good place to live and I hope to see you there. ;-]

I did read the entire post, but didn't see any references. Does he provide citations for the Scriptures he's built his thesis out of?

I think this is a great thread and a discussion of what the Bible says about Heaven as well as Hell will be a very interesting one.

39 posted on 09/24/2010 5:48:44 PM PDT by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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To: 1010RD

YES, He provides lots of Scripture refs, generally.

I’m aware of the New Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven.

And, I suppose one could quibble about his preciseness.

However, I still think it’s a reasonable sentence to assert that Scripture describes Heaven as a city, a kingdom and a garden.

He has evidently read every book on Heaven he could track down—including all the visitation books—which he is fairly dismissive of in terms of his approach. It’s not that he insists they are all nonsense—but that most of them are and that his approach is to write strictly from what he can support from the perspective of Scripture.


40 posted on 09/24/2010 6:09:54 PM PDT by Quix (PAPAL AGENT DESIGNEE: Resident Filth of non-Roman Catholics; RC AGENT DESIGNATED: "INSANE")
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To: 1010RD

YES, He provides lots of Scripture refs, generally.

I’m aware of the New Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven.

And, I suppose one could quibble about his preciseness.

However, I still think it’s a reasonable sentence to assert that Scripture describes Heaven as a city, a kingdom and a garden.

Paul spoke of going to the 7th Heaven, IIRC . . .

We could even say that Scripture mentions Heaven as the metaphor of ‘the bossom of Abraham.’

Yes, I suppose ‘strictly’ speaking, one could construe the “streets of gold” as applying in Scripture to the New Jerusalem. However, I think there’s some Biblical inference allowing them to be applicable for at least a part of Heaven in more general terms.

Certainly every credible visitation book I’ve read has commented on the transparent streets of gold being one of their early sights to see.

He has evidently read every book on Heaven he could track down—including all the visitation books—which he is fairly dismissive of in terms of his approach. It’s not that he insists they are all nonsense—but that most of them are and that his approach is to write strictly from what he can support from the perspective of Scripture.

Thanks for your comment about the thread.


41 posted on 09/24/2010 6:22:29 PM PDT by Quix (PAPAL AGENT DESIGNEE: Resident Filth of non-Roman Catholics; RC AGENT DESIGNATED: "INSANE")
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To: Quix

Quix, what would be yout definition of peace? Do you have peace?


42 posted on 09/24/2010 8:42:19 PM PDT by AnneM62
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To: AnneM62

Comfort and serenity in The Lord.

Yes, the vast majority of the time.


43 posted on 09/24/2010 9:28:16 PM PDT by Quix (PAPAL AGENT DESIGNEE: Resident Filth of non-Roman Catholics; RC AGENT DESIGNATED: "INSANE")
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To: Quix; narses

That he did his best, researched thoroughly and did it over some time span to write his book and is getting it wrong makes the book worthless.

It distracts and obscures instead of focusing and clarifying. There are many myths about Heaven and Hell, but the Bible is fairly clear about it and Catholic doctrine isn’t too far off.

Narses, I pinged you to get a Catholic’s opinion of this post and to possibly explain the Catholic perspective on the afterlife. For instance, is there a Limbo or Purgatory?


44 posted on 09/25/2010 2:25:16 AM PDT by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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To: 1010RD

I wouldn’t claim it’s flawless holy writ.

I don’t see that he got much wrong.

It’s still odd to me that you do.


45 posted on 09/25/2010 6:18:47 AM PDT by Quix (PAPAL AGENT DESIGNEE: Resident Filth of non-Roman Catholics; RC AGENT DESIGNATED: "INSANE")
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To: Quix
I find the assertion that we will have physical bodies to be inconsistent with I cor 15: it is sown a "psychikon" body, it is raised a spiritual body.

Consequently AND in light of the scoffing one hears when one suggests that, however mysteriously, Jesus meant it when He said "This is my body," I find the argument that heaven is a "place" at best unclear.

What I find distressing is that I am invited to a thread which cannot get beyond the first post without attacking the Pope.

"What if they gave a war and nobody came?" I am not doing apologetics or debates during the 40 Days For Life. Include me out.

46 posted on 09/25/2010 11:28:56 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Quix
It would be a lot less distressing to your side if they took the trouble to find out what we mean by it.

Hint: Does God 'remember' something that never happened, behold something that is not?

Your side has intentionally cut itself away from the conversation, and then comes blundering in demanding that everybody change the vocabulary, almost change the subject, to suit those who left the room 450 years ago, and now come back to criticize something because they don't even know what it is, what is being said.

47 posted on 09/25/2010 1:29:09 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg

Then I will just thank you for your reply.


48 posted on 09/25/2010 3:08:44 PM PDT by Quix (PAPAL AGENT DESIGNEE: Resident Filth of non-Roman Catholics; RC AGENT DESIGNATED: "INSANE")
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To: Mad Dawg

That’s not quite my perspective . . . as shocking as that may be to read.


49 posted on 09/25/2010 3:09:40 PM PDT by Quix (PAPAL AGENT DESIGNEE: Resident Filth of non-Roman Catholics; RC AGENT DESIGNATED: "INSANE")
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To: Quix

http://www.faithcomesbyhearing.com/


50 posted on 09/28/2010 5:35:02 PM PDT by Joya
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