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Apostle Paul made a minister to the Gentiles for the grace of God
2010 | bibletruth

Posted on 09/24/2010 11:20:38 PM PDT by bibletruth

Apostle Paul made a minister to the Gentiles for the grace of God, just as the Apostle Peter was made a minister to the circumcision.


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: circumcision; paul; peter
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The Apostle Paul's writes in regards to grace, for by the Grace and Gift of God; Jesus Christ and the Father made the Apostle Paul a minister to the Gentiles for the grace of God, just as Jesus Christ and the Father made the Apostle Peter a minister to the circumcision [Jews].

Galatians 2:7ff ...when they saw the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter: For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me [Paul] toward the Gentiles: And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars [but were not pillars], perceived the grace that was given unto me [Paul], they gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

You see, if you read Paul's writing, then we learn whom was given the grace of God for the Gentiles, of whom we all are today, that is, we who are not Jewish by birth.

Paul was a minister of the Grace of God to the Gentiles

Peter was a minister of the gospel to the circumcision, i.e., Jewish believers; not Gentiles; except one Gentile in Acts 10, Cornelius.

The Gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John; are entirely to the Jewish people, for God's promise was given to the Jews, not the Gentiles. The Gospels were fulfilled prophecy throughout Scripture in the Old Testament, which was given to the Jews, not to the Gentiles. The Gospels demonstrate Christ fulfilled in prophecy for thousands of years and thousands of prophecy; and Christ fulfilled all of them in the 4 books of the Gospels for Israel. Not one of those prophecies was fulfilled for the Gentiles, except the realization of the benefit of the Cross of Jesus, and His rising from the dead and ascending to the Father.

Matthew 10:6 [Jesus said:] But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:24 But he [Jesus] answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost [the house of Israel].

John 10:3 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice [Christ spoke first of the Jews in their hearing, they would assume that Christ spoke of them, not us 2,000 years later]

1 posted on 09/24/2010 11:20:40 PM PDT by bibletruth
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To: bibletruth

Self made is impossible.


2 posted on 09/24/2010 11:22:17 PM PDT by allmost
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To: allmost
what do you specifically mean by "self made"...

just a simple question for clarification...thanks.

3 posted on 09/24/2010 11:38:59 PM PDT by bibletruth
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To: bibletruth

It’s been my experience that some consider themselves ‘self made’. Arguably the height of arrogance.


4 posted on 09/24/2010 11:46:05 PM PDT by allmost
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To: bibletruth
The “House of Israel” is a very controversial Biblical truth that must be investigated before what you are saying can be accepted.

There were TWO houses created after King Solomon's death, the House of Israel and the House of Judah.
Two separate Kingdoms, two separate peoples, two separate destinies. This is all in any encyclopedia.

In 721 B.C. the House of Israel was invaded, conquered and carried away by Assyria as the judgment of Yahweh fell on this people. The House of Judah was left in tact. The House of Israel was scattered throughout all the nations, becoming Gentiles as the prophet Hosea said would happen.

Taking this HISTORICAL FACT you must now factor this in with the premise you are presenting.

5 posted on 09/25/2010 12:00:14 AM PDT by ladyL
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To: bibletruth

In the apologetics community, there is lots of discussion as to whether St. Paul’s views originated from a botched circumscision. Many sources support this view. And that he resented being unable to have sex.

Whether St. Paul ever had self-arousal or not, is beside the point.

This in no way diminishes his vision of Christ Jesus and his and our faith.


6 posted on 09/25/2010 12:13:21 AM PDT by saltus (God's Will be done)
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To: saltus

“Many sources”? Really. You’d think by now I’d have heard at least one of them. Care to name any?


7 posted on 09/25/2010 12:31:14 AM PDT by Ackackadack
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To: ladyL; bibletruth
The House of Israel was scattered throughout all the nations, becoming Gentiles as the prophet Hosea said would happen.

What?! That's nonsense. Scattered Jews did not become Gentiles.

8 posted on 09/25/2010 2:21:57 AM PDT by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: bibletruth

I would suggest that anyone who approaches Christ with humility any less than this woman’s is going to be seriously dismayed.

- - - - - - - -

The Faith of the Canaanite Woman

21Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession.”

23Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

24He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

25The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

26He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to their dogs.”

27“Yes, Lord,” she said, “but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table.”

28Then Jesus answered, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.


9 posted on 09/25/2010 2:30:35 AM PDT by TruthBeforeAll (The only question required at any political debate "from where do rights originate?".)
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To: Ackackadack
“Many sources”? Really. You’d think by now I’d have heard at least one of them.

Really! I'd expect a theory (if we can so dignify it) like that to make the front page of the NYT and be the lead story on the alphabets -- it's just the kind of thing they lap up!

10 posted on 09/25/2010 3:31:19 AM PDT by maryz
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To: bibletruth

I am encouraged by your knowledge in the scriptures rightly divided. You will be flamed by many who have participated in satans policy of evil, patients and longsuffering will open the eyes of a few. Attacks will come from those who play in the MUD=(Mixed Up Doctrine) as already demonstrated by many of the comments thus far.

Paul said: 2 Timothy 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Grace and Peace


11 posted on 09/25/2010 6:07:26 AM PDT by PoloSec (Note to Princess B H Obama: May PISS be Upon Mohammads Head...You Pervert)
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To: saltus

Not having seen any of this discussion about any supposed “botched” circumcision— I am inclined to believe it a lie
from the pits of Hell-seeming wholly incompatible with the
Road to Damascus report in Scripture.Especially if one is speaking of circumcision of Saul of Tarsus.Who would ,I presume have been circumcised according to Hebrew tradition
long before he sat at the feet of Gamaliel?


12 posted on 09/25/2010 6:09:12 AM PDT by StonyBurk (ring)
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To: kosta50

Ah but they could -as a people be absorbed by the Gentile
communities —much as many other peoples in the history of the world have been i.e. the Hiksos of Egyptian history .The
comment though poorly put-remains factually true.


13 posted on 09/25/2010 6:12:59 AM PDT by StonyBurk (ring)
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To: ladyL
"becoming Gentiles as the prophet Hosea said would happen."

Could you please give the reference in Hosea regarding becoming Gentiles? Please give the translation that you are using. That would help.

14 posted on 09/25/2010 6:24:51 AM PDT by Pure Country (“I’ve noticed that every person that is for abortion has already been born.” -Ronald Reagan)
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To: ladyL
Quote [fro LadyL] Scattered Jews did not become Gentile

That is absolutely false doctrine - NO documentation on earth can prove that Jews, who are by birth and genealogy, somehow "became" Gentiles simply by being scattered because of their rejection of Christ.

God scattered the Jews, God did not suddenly make them Gentiles by this act. I've never hears such ignorance before.

Show me the Bible Scripture that says the Jews became Gentiles simply by being scattered?

15 posted on 09/25/2010 6:34:53 AM PDT by bibletruth
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To: saltus
Quote: In the apologetics community, there is lots of discussion as to whether St. Paul’s views originated from a botched circumscision. Many sources support this view.

The only sources that I can think of which hold this view are the scholars viewpoint - which is often false doctrine since they often deny Christ and His inspiration of the Bible.

I will always hold GOD's Word far above any scholar's viewpoint; no matter how cleaver it is written.

16 posted on 09/25/2010 6:39:34 AM PDT by bibletruth
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To: StonyBurk
Ah but they could -as a people be absorbed by the Gentile communities —much as many other peoples in the history of the world have been i.e. the Hiksos of Egyptian history .The comment though poorly put-remains factually true

Jews were not absorbed anywhere in the world even when they adopted foreign language and culture. During the Babylonian captivity, they forgot Hebrew and adopted Aramaic, and the Jews scattered in Egypt (Alexandria) and the Middle East became Greek-speaking, the way American Jews speak English, without losing their identity. Spanish Jews who converted to Catholicism in order to avoid deportation, remained practicing Catholics in public and Jews in private. Three centuries later their offspring left Spain for Holland where they became overt Jews once again.

There is no evidence anywhere that the Jews of the Kingdom of Israel "became" Gentiles anywhere in the world. It would make it neatly fit in with the Hebrews 8, and Jeremiah's prophesy, but that's just not factually true. The New Covenant was promised to the Jews and not to the Gentiles.

17 posted on 09/25/2010 8:00:32 AM PDT by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: kosta50
They weren't Jews they were Israelites. Jews only came from the tribe of Judah, there were eleven other tribes. Paul was not a Jew, he was a Benjaminite. Caleb was an Ephraimite. Abraham wasn't a Jew, Isaac wasn't a Jew, Jacob wasn't a Jew, Moses wasn't a Jew he was a Levite.
18 posted on 09/25/2010 8:37:22 AM PDT by ladyL
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To: kosta50

“The New Covenant was promised to the Jews and not to the Gentiles.”

Yes, this is true, but let’s also remember that the promise was given in Revelations which were given specifically to the Jews. There are references even in the Old Testament, however, that promise salvation to the Gentiles as well, in connection with the promised New Covenant. Here’s one succinct example:

Isaiah 42:6
“I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles”


19 posted on 09/25/2010 8:50:29 AM PDT by Boogieman
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To: ladyL

“Jew” is informal usage. “Son of Jacob” or “Son of Israel” is the legal term. Mordechai (in the Book of Esther) is described as a “Jewish man” even though he was of the tribe of Benjamin.


20 posted on 09/25/2010 9:11:22 AM PDT by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: bibletruth

I did not say Jews became Gentiles. I said the ten northern tribes of Israel were conquered and scattered, loosing their identity. Read the Book of Hosea, 1Kings 11,
2 Kings 17 and Ezk. 37.


21 posted on 09/25/2010 9:23:33 AM PDT by ladyL
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To: ladyL

A quote from you...”The House of Israel was scattered throughout all the nations, becoming Gentiles as the prophet Hosea said would happen.”


22 posted on 09/25/2010 11:08:52 AM PDT by Pure Country (“I’ve noticed that every person that is for abortion has already been born.” -Ronald Reagan)
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To: Pure Country

Yes, the House of Israel are not Jews. 1Kings 11, after Solomon died Reohboam his son, split the Kingdom in TWO. The House of Israel were the ten northern tribes and the House of Judah was Judah and Benjamin. Later God divorced the House of Israel but stayed in covenant with the House of Judah from which the Messiah would come. Jesus/Yahshua was a Jew from the tribe of Judah.

The Ten northern tribes were not JEWS!!!!! They were Hebrews, they were Israelites but they were not JEWS.
The ten northern tribes were later scattered into all the nations and became Gentiles. 2 Chronicles 5:26 Hosea 1-10.


23 posted on 09/25/2010 4:31:14 PM PDT by ladyL
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To: Boogieman

(Jer 31:31 KJV) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

(Jer 31:32 KJV) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

(Jer 31:33 KJV) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

TWO SEPARATE HOUSES TWO SEPARATE PEOPLES TWO SEPARATE DESTINIES


24 posted on 09/25/2010 4:37:38 PM PDT by ladyL
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To: Pure Country

Remember the House of Israel and the House of Judah are two epareate kingdoms.

(Hosea 1:3 KJV) So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim; which conceived, and bare him a son.

(Hosea 1:4 KJV) And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel.

(Hosea 1:5 KJV) And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel.

(Hosea 1:6 KJV) And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.

(Hosea 1:7 KJV) But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.

(Hosea 1:8 KJV) Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.

(Hosea 1:9 KJV) Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.

(Hosea 1:10 KJV) Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.


25 posted on 09/25/2010 4:46:17 PM PDT by ladyL
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To: PoloSec

>>4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:<<

and I bet you, you think from Friday to Sunday is three days and three nights :)


26 posted on 09/25/2010 4:49:10 PM PDT by ladyL
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To: jjotto
There was a Civil War which went on for approx. 200 years between Israel and Judah after the Kingdom split. During that time the Benjaminites and Judahites were painted with the big brush JEWS. Later anyone who dwelt in Judah were known as Jews whether they were from Asher, Dan or any of the other tribes. The majority of the tribes were carried off by Assyria and 700 yrs. later Jesus taught on the lost people of the House of Israel.

I am going to grant all those who are confused that this information goes against everything we have been taught in traditional Christianity BUT if you are a seeker of Truth, come back to the Bible...leave man's doctrines behind and let the Lord show you what He is showing hundreds of thousands Believers today.

27 posted on 09/25/2010 4:58:26 PM PDT by ladyL
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To: allmendream

You might be interested in this thread as an example of a variation on British Israel-type beliefs.


28 posted on 09/25/2010 5:13:22 PM PDT by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: ladyL
They weren't Jews they were Israelites. Jews only came from the tribe of Judah, there were eleven other tribes. Paul was not a Jew, he was a Benjaminite. Caleb was an Ephraimite. Abraham wasn't a Jew, Isaac wasn't a Jew, Jacob wasn't a Jew, Moses wasn't a Jew he was a Levite

That is correct, however, the people who lived in those two kingdoms encompassed the people commonly known today as the Jews (of all tribal ancestry, and none of the those living in the House of Israel became "Gentiles".

29 posted on 09/25/2010 10:45:21 PM PDT by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: Boogieman
The Hebrew word gowy is translated by the KJV no less than 374 times as nation/tribe, 11 times as people and 30 times as the non-Jews in the Old Testament, but that is KJV's Christian and doctrinal bias. The Jewish translation of the Tanakh in isa 42:6 says "nations" (tribes), not Gentiles. Even most Christian Bibles use "nations" rather than "Gentiles."

First God is saying he referring to his servant (Israel), saying he called on him in his (God's) righteousness, or better yet justice, and will guide Israel by the hand, at the same time guarding his people, and will institute his covenant through Israel, which (convenient) will be the light to the (Israelite) tribes or nations.

To suggest otherwise,i.e. Gentiles, is of course the concoction made up by the Christian authors later on. However, God made his covenant only with the Jewish people and not others (because others worshiped other gods).

Jesus himself admits he came only for the lost sheep of Israel and allows his disciples to only go to the lost sheep of Israel (i.e. non-Gentile, non-Samaritan).

30 posted on 09/25/2010 11:15:30 PM PDT by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: kosta50

Thank You. I stand corrected.I am reminded of a man I know who grew up believing he was Roman Catholic-but found out recently that his ancestors -while in Spain had converted to the Roman faith-and carried that to America where his grand parents and parents and ? I am not privy as to research he has done but short answer is he has since converted to Judaism
after a brief encounter of conversion from the Catholic of his birth to be ordained as an Assembly of God minister where he was led by a fellow Assembly of God minister to consider the
fact that our Christian Bible was originally written in Hebrew-and the difference in translation of the terms led him to Judaism.


31 posted on 09/26/2010 4:40:59 AM PDT by StonyBurk (ring)
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To: StonyBurk
after a brief encounter of conversion from the Catholic of his birth to be ordained as an Assembly of God minister where he was led by a fellow Assembly of God minister to consider the fact that our Christian Bible was originally written in Hebrew-and the difference in translation of the terms led him to Judaism

Lest anyone think I have an agenda, I am not Jewish, by ancestry or otherwise. That said, it is really an eye-opener to read what the Jews have to say about their own Bible, and compare it to what the Christians say the Jewish Bible says! To put it in terms most will be able to relate to: it's like someone who has never lived in America telling Americans what America is like!

32 posted on 09/26/2010 8:32:56 AM PDT by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: kosta50

Jews are suckers for every type of spiritual hokum that comes along except Pauline Christianity (and Islam). This is precisely because they have a chance to see “what the Jews have to say about their own Bible, and compare it to what the Christians say the Jewish Bible says!” At this point Christianity becomes uninteresting and Jews move on to other kinds of hokum that at least don’t misrepresent the Jewish scriptures.


33 posted on 09/26/2010 9:26:43 AM PDT by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: ladyL

First of all, the first verse you cite refers to both the house of Israel, and the house of Judah, but only refers to ONE covenant. So, later when it talks about the covenant with the house of Israel, this is the same covenant made with the house of Judah.

Not to mention that, although there were two nations that came out of Israel, they all came from Israel (Jacob). So, the “house of Israel” can refer to only the tribes of the nation of Israel, or to all twelve tribes which descendended from the man called Israel.


34 posted on 09/26/2010 9:50:35 AM PDT by Boogieman
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To: kosta50

You are correct that “goy/goyim” can be translated in different ways. However, even if translated as “nations” it does not mean that this refers to the tribes of Israel. Didn’t God use the same word when he prophecied the Messiah would judge the nations (Psalm 110:6)? Clearly that refers to nations which are His enemies, and not to the tribes of Israel.

The word needs to be read in context, and it seems clear from other prophecies, that although the Covenant was promised to Israel, that God would cause all nations to worship him. This is stated clearly in Jeremiah 3:17-18 :

“17 At that time they will call Jerusalem The Throne of the LORD, and all nations will gather in Jerusalem to honor the name of the LORD. No longer will they follow the stubbornness of their evil hearts. 18 In those days the house of Judah will join the house of Israel, and together they will come from a northern land to the land I gave your forefathers as an inheritance.”

So, in the future time when God regathers his people, he will also cause Jerusalem to be revered by all people, and all nations will gather there to worship God. Salvation is given first to God’s chosen, but not exclusively to God’s chosen. They are the firstfruits, but the firstfruits come only before a larger harvest.


35 posted on 09/26/2010 10:30:48 AM PDT by Boogieman
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To: kosta50

Never said what I thought you were. But I did/do appreciate it when someone comes along who can remind me when I say somehtin’stupid.And give credible reason I ought believe them.


36 posted on 09/26/2010 11:10:11 AM PDT by StonyBurk (ring)
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To: jjotto
Jews are suckers for every type of spiritual hokum that comes along except Pauline Christianity (and Islam)

It's not just Pauline Christianity, it's the Gospels as well (and there is even a misleading suggestion that the Gospels were written for the Jews!). The Jews read what the Christians wrote and their hair stands up. It's like Christians reading Mormon theology—bogus! Just as no Christian would say things Mormons preach, neither would a Jew (including Jesus) say what the Christians said about Judaism.

Islam, of course is no different than the LDS cult, twice removed from anything even remotely Jewish.

37 posted on 09/26/2010 11:55:04 AM PDT by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: kosta50

There is a well-known rabbi who has a standing joke that relates how God invented Mormonism so Christians would know how it feels to be Jewish.


38 posted on 09/26/2010 12:20:39 PM PDT by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: Boogieman
However, even if translated as “nations” it does not mean that this refers to the tribes of Israel. Didn’t God use the same word when he prophecied the Messiah would judge the nations (Psalm 110:6)?

Uh, Psalm 110, is misunderstood or twisted, whichever way you wish to look at it, form the very beginning (110:1), but that's another thread! As for the use of goyim in this example, the KJV translates it as heathen, which is in the spirit of how the word is used in the oldest books of the Old Testament, namely those who did not worship God of Israel, including Israelites (see Gen 12:2 where Israel is referred to as a great nation or goy gado); the temrs itself had a number of meanings nut it was not made to mean exclusively non-Jews until Christians, especially Paul, made it to mean that.

The Messiah (the anointed one) in Judaism is a mortal human king, favored by God, who shall gather all the lost sheep of Israel and bring them back. The very end of the verse in Jeremiah speaks of the inheritance promised to the forefathers..." which clearly applies only to the Jews. Since the tribes were scattered, the same Jewish tribes/nations (remember we even refer to American Indian tribes as nations, i.e. the Apache nation, the Sioux nation, etc.) will be brought back "from the northern land" (House of Israel).

So, in the future time when God regathers his people, he will also cause Jerusalem to be revered by all people, and all nations will gather there to worship God. Salvation is given first to God’s chosen, but not exclusively to God’s chosen. They are the firstfruits, but the firstfruits come only before a larger harvest.

That is what the Christians believe but that was never what the Jews believed or taught. The Old Testament says that the God of Israel shall be known to all the people of the world through the might of the Jewish meshiyah (messiah) who will defeat Israel's enemies and reunite the Jewish people.

Te God of Israel has made a covenant with the non-Jewish people after the Flood. Thee are bound by the Noahide Laws but they have no other obligation in the World to Come. The Jews, on the other hand, as the priestly nation shall continue to worship and serve the God of Israel. A little investigation into the Jewish beliefs will show you that every Jewish male is a priest unto himself and obligated to observe the mitzvot along with prayers for himself and the family. The Gentiles have no such obligation.

39 posted on 09/26/2010 12:21:54 PM PDT by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: jjotto
There is a well-known rabbi who has a standing joke that relates how God invented Mormonism so Christians would know how it feels to be Jewish

It is a joke, but he couldn't be more spot on! Let them taste their own medicine! It is the exact equivalent: contorted interpretation, new theology and new "scripture."

The OT addresses the Gentiles through Noah. The non-Jewish people are simply to live their lives according to the Noahide Laws. That's where their involvement with the God of Israel ends. They have no other role or obligation as far as he is concerned.

40 posted on 09/26/2010 12:27:00 PM PDT by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: Boogieman

I agree with your understanding on everything other than the New Covenant. Actually it was the Old Covenant RENEWED. Same Ten Commandments, same Covenant, only renewed. Look up New in Strongs...renewed in the Greek.


41 posted on 09/26/2010 2:28:00 PM PDT by ladyL
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To: kosta50

Well, most of these arguments are just based on what the Jewish understanding of the Old Testament is vs. the Christian understanding. It’s pretty hard to make any headway in arguments like this, the Jews think that Christians have misinterpreted Scripture, and the Christians think that Jews don’t correctly understand some parts of their own Scriptures, since they do not accept the revelations which hold the key.

I’m satisfied that the Christian understanding is correct, and I think someday Jews and Christians who are faithful will be in agreement. However, that’s something that will probably take a miracle from God to fully realize!


42 posted on 09/26/2010 6:20:20 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Boogieman
It’s pretty hard to make any headway in arguments like this, the Jews think that Christians have misinterpreted Scripture, and the Christians think that Jews don’t correctly understand some parts of their own Scriptures, since they do not accept the revelations which hold the key

No argument there. However I find the Jewish point of view much more credible and logical than Christian. After all, Christianity is an amalgam of Judaism and Hellenism/Platonism (with a tinge of Zoroastrian spice) and that's a pretty immiscible combination.

43 posted on 09/26/2010 7:09:16 PM PDT by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: ladyL; Boogieman
Actually it was the Old Covenant RENEWED. Same Ten Commandments, same Covenant, only renewed

That's correct. The Covenant is with the Jewish people and Jewish people only, and cannot be abrogated or annulled, replaced, or "made obsolete," as the Christian book of Hebrews (Ch. 8) suggests. The Covenant God made with Israel is an everlasting covenant; the Torah is to be observed forever, and therefore cannot be "fulfilled."

God also made an everlasting Covenant with the Gentiles after the Flood. Therefore a "new covenant" proposed by Christians is in conflict with God's everlasting covenant made to Noah. The Gentiles have been given the Noahide laws and that's where their obligation and dealings with the God of Israel ends.

44 posted on 09/26/2010 7:22:11 PM PDT by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: kosta50

“After all, Christianity is an amalgam of Judaism and Hellenism/Platonism (with a tinge of Zoroastrian spice) and that’s a pretty immiscible combination.”

I’d have to disagree with that statement. Christianity isn’t an amalgam of anything. Paul used arguments designed to appeal to Gentiles, who wouldn’t have understood arguments based on Jewish Scriptures, but the ideas he taught didn’t come from the Greeks, he merely put the ideas in language they could relate to.

As for the Zoroastrian angle, this is a pretty recent ploy by secularists to try to invalidate Christianity, but there’s really no evidence to support it. Zorastrianism itself is a religion that borrowed concepts freely from other religions, so any superficial similarities to Christianity could have been transferred in the opposite direction. However, even granting that the similarities existed prior to Christianity, doesn’t prove a common origin, anymore than some superficial similarities between Judaism and some Egyptian or Babylonian religous ideas means Judaism is an amalgam of those religions.


45 posted on 09/26/2010 7:40:47 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Boogieman
Christianity isn’t an amalgam of anything. Paul used arguments designed to appeal to Gentiles, who wouldn’t have understood arguments based on Jewish Scriptures, but the ideas he taught didn’t come from the Greeks, he merely put the ideas in language they could relate to

There is a lot more to Christianity than Paul, although for most Protestants he is pretty much it. That's pretty lofty for a man Thomas Jefferson described as the "first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus" and a man who describes himself as "all things to all men."

Paul was not so much a Hellenizer as he was an antinomianist. The only thing Paul did as far as Greek paganism was concerned was to let them off the hook as regards circumcision (which the Greeks thought was silly), and dietary laws. He knew very well the Greeks would never buy into this resurrected Jesus story he was preaching if that included Jewish dietary laws, and Jewish mitzvot in general, including the circumcision.

But the Hellenization of the Jewish sect of Jesus followers comes with John at the end of the first century, when Judaism clearly rejected any and all Christian books and teachings and called Christians apostates and usurpers (minims). Until John there is not a trace of a Platonic Jesus as a Hellenic god; but therefater Palotnism rules.

As for the Zoroastrian angle, this is a pretty recent ploy by secularists to try to invalidate Christianity, but there’s really no evidence to support it.

Uh, I knew the secularist ploy card was going to come up sooner or later. Zoroastrianism actually influenced post-Babylonian Judaism (at least the apocalyptic types, such as Essenes, or Jesus himself), who believed in "resident evil" (otherwise unknown to Judaism until then), the rebellious devil, and what not. The Jewish Christians thus carried Zoroastrian beliefs to the Gentile converts and Gentile Christians merely inherited them from their Jewish counterparts.

Zoroastrian dualism creeping into Judaism has been known for a long, long time and is not a recent "secularist ploy" to discredit Christianity. Christianity can do that all by itself without anyone's help.

46 posted on 09/26/2010 8:13:58 PM PDT by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: kosta50

Well, if you’re going to subscribe to the school that analyzes Scripture simply as literary works of men, you’re going be able to draw all sorts of fantastic conclusions. I can’t put any stock in those analyses myself.


47 posted on 09/26/2010 9:44:07 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Boogieman
Well, if you’re going to subscribe to the school that analyzes Scripture simply as literary works of men, you’re going be able to draw all sorts of fantastic conclusions.

People who subscribe to analyzing scriptures as divinely inspired draw all sorts of fantastic conclusions as well.

I can’t put any stock in those analyses myself

Why, because you have monopoly on truth?

48 posted on 09/26/2010 9:50:27 PM PDT by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: kosta50

“Why, because you have monopoly on truth?”

No, but in my opinion they’re based on a false premise, and that premise undermines the rest of their conclusions.


49 posted on 09/26/2010 10:39:02 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: kosta50

I believe I understand where you are coming from but perhaps not completely. It appears you are Jewish but also might be part of the Noachide sect?

(Jer 31:31 KJV) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah...

What must be distinguished here are the TWO different houses and the TWO different peoples.


50 posted on 09/27/2010 12:22:28 AM PDT by ladyL
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