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[KJV Bible Believers Caucus] Only Water Baptism ? Christ's Preeminence ?
bibletruth | 2010 | bibletruth

Posted on 09/27/2010 6:17:08 PM PDT by bibletruth

Only Water Baptism ? Who's Preeminence: Christ's or another ?

Let's start by observing the Scriptures in John


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: baptism; spirit; water
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Only Water Baptism ? Who's Preeminence: Christ's or another ?

Let's start by observing the Scriptures in John, and then move onto Christ's preeminence:

First the context:

John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

Now the baptisms - water... Spirit...

John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with WATER, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth WITH THE HOLY GHOST.

Closing context:

The Apostle John identifies the ONE who will baptise with the Holy Ghost / Spirit:

John 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

Is there now only Water Baptism ?

So, if now, there is no other baptism than a water baptism; then either John is a liar or God is a liar...God Forbid!

Current Baptism into the Body of Christ, the Church, today

Today's Baptism Into Christ

Clearly now it is most probable, based upon Scripture in the Word of God in John, that the baptism which the Apostle Paul mentioned in Romans 6, is the baptism which the Apostle John in John 1 mentioned.

Note, however, that John's words are not his own words, but they are the very Words of God; therefore, we should tread lightly upon them these Words of God.

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were [Spirit] baptized into Jesus Christ were [Spirit] baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by [Spirit] baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Jewish Old Testament Baptism - Including John's Ministry

The Old Testament has many baptisms, some record over six different types of baptisms. The primary baptism of the Jewish Old Testament is baptism by means of water. If some so called "church" today practices primarily water baptism, then that "church" is practicing Jewish baptism, which is exactly what Peter performed on Acts 2:38 on Cornelius the Roman Centurion; whom was baptised in the classic Jewish Old Testament and Gospel means. Which is perfectly correct for that dispensation. But following, then, is Paul's conversion in Acts 9 and then if we continue that practice; is in then the wrong dispensation...today's baptism is by God's Holy Spirit in Romans 6.

Christ Resurrection Qualified Him to be the HEAD of the Church

Christ is the head of the Body of Christ - all true believers. And Christ is the head of the church - all true believers. This is Biblical as seen in Colossians:

Colossians 1:18 And he [Christ] is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Christ's Preeminence

If you deny that Christ is the head of the Body, the Church, which is HIS body; then you have denied HIS preeminence - God Forbid! Never I'm my former sinner's life would I even contemplate to deny HIS preeminence. Or maybe you think that your church has replaced Christ's preeminence; but in so thinking, you have denied the preeminence of Christ as Head over the Church and you have made preeminence out of a building, rather than the glory of Christ's preeminence!

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Christ is the head of the Church, which is the Body of Christ consisting of true Bible believing Christians.

Ephesians 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him [Christ] in all things, which is the head, even Christ.

There are way too many Scriptures to deny that Christ is the head of the Church.

1 posted on 09/27/2010 6:17:11 PM PDT by bibletruth
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To: bibletruth

Had the man on the cross next to Jesus been Baptized?

From what I’ve read, Jesus didn’t care so much for all the legalisms.

And for what it’s worth, I have been baptized.


2 posted on 09/27/2010 6:20:46 PM PDT by boycott (CAL)
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To: boycott
Had the man on the cross next to Jesus been Baptized?

No. Come on, does this one special case where a man who was condemned to death; and prior to the penalty of the cross, and who never heard nor believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, can we now legitimately make a major case for water baptism for this individual. Should all of history stop for a brief moment to let this prisoner down to get water baptized and then continue his penalty on the Roman cross!

Regarding legalism of the Pharisees and Sadducees:

Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Unfortunately, that is where legalism take anyone who continues in practicing legalism, then and now...

Today, we are saved by Grace, not by works of the Law.

3 posted on 09/27/2010 6:41:46 PM PDT by bibletruth
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To: bibletruth

Could you clarify who is qualified to participate in this caucus thread? People who believe the kjv is the ONLY accurate translation? People who participate must stick to kjv quotations? etc.

If I translate directly from Greek, am I barred? How does your designation work?


4 posted on 09/27/2010 6:42:38 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: bibletruth

Baptism is like the reception AFTER the wedding.

Baptism does not save anybody, but it is a sign of acceptance of salvation.


5 posted on 09/27/2010 6:42:45 PM PDT by BereanBrain
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To: BereanBrain
"Baptism is like the reception AFTER the wedding."

Actually, baptism is when the believer receives their priesthood.

6 posted on 09/27/2010 6:46:45 PM PDT by GourmetDan (Eccl 10:2 - The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left.)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

If you are really interested in what the New Testament says learn Koine Greek and read the original document. Note: When you know what the New Testament says, it doesn’t imply that you will know what it means. The Greek verb Bastimo means I dip.

Read the scriptures in their original languages to understand as best you can.


7 posted on 09/27/2010 6:50:55 PM PDT by Citizen Tom Paine (An old sailor sends)
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To: GourmetDan

For me, every time I take communion, it is a re-baptism of Spirit.


8 posted on 09/27/2010 6:50:57 PM PDT by tired&retired
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To: bibletruth
Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were [Spirit] baptized into Jesus Christ were [Spirit] baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by [Spirit] baptism into death:

In what edition of the KJV are the words in red found?

9 posted on 09/27/2010 6:51:46 PM PDT by Campion
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To: boycott
From what I’ve read, Jesus didn’t care so much for all the legalisms.

My God is not a petty God.

10 posted on 09/27/2010 7:29:46 PM PDT by Prokopton
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To: boycott

I believe I am agreeing with you on most everything.


11 posted on 09/27/2010 7:30:08 PM PDT by boycott (CAL)
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To: bibletruth

It’s a metaphor. You are baptized in Christ but the physical act doesn’t make anything complete.

When being baptized in church, you are at once proclaiming your salvation, baring witness of your acceptance of Jesus Christ as your Savior and the change in spirit’s intent from now on.


12 posted on 09/27/2010 7:35:13 PM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it.)
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To: BereanBrain

I like that metaphor. I am going to use that.

Thanks.


13 posted on 09/27/2010 7:36:27 PM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it.)
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To: tired&retired
Sorry, I cannot help you friend. Re-baptism from a Mass ?

How can a Mass communion re-baptism someone who is a faithful believer: If a Mass communion re-baptizes, then it logically follows that it also crucifies again afresh (again).

As is recorded in Hebrews 6:6 “seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh (via the Mass), and put him to an open shame...

The offering of the body of Jesus Christ was once for all time: Hebrews 10:10

Hebrews 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Today, some priests continue to offer daily offerings:

Hebrews 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

I'm happy to be sanctified once for all by the finished work of Christ on the cross.

Now consider Hebrews in context:

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

14 posted on 09/27/2010 7:36:35 PM PDT by bibletruth
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To: Campion

The New Testament and only when Jesus spoke.


15 posted on 09/27/2010 7:38:17 PM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it.)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

You are not barred. You are welcome. I only wish to communicate the grace of God and salvation by grace apart from works of the Law.


16 posted on 09/27/2010 7:39:02 PM PDT by bibletruth
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To: bibletruth; tired&retired

I think tired&retired meant re-dedicated.


17 posted on 09/27/2010 7:40:14 PM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it.)
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To: Prokopton

From what I’ve read, Jesus didn’t care so much for all the legalisms.


My God is not a petty God.


The scribes and Pharisees tried to impress Jesus with their legalisms and rituals. He wasn’t overly impressed. Jesus was/is “not of this world.”

Jesus knows our hearts.

My post does not mean that I am implying that Bibletruth wrong either.


18 posted on 09/27/2010 7:40:41 PM PDT by boycott (CAL)
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To: Campion; bibletruth

I’m not quite sure of your point Campion, but I think we’re in the same boat. Bibletruth: I think the following verses from Acts pretty well debunk your theory, demonstrating that baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost are two different things.

Philip was preaching the Gospel in Samaria and obviously had the authority to baptize. He did not have the authority to give the Holy Ghost. Hence Philip told those whom he had baptized to go see Peter and John, who were authorized to give the converts the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8:12-20

12. But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14. Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15. Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16. (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17. Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18. And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19. Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20. But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.


19 posted on 09/27/2010 7:41:40 PM PDT by Dexter Morgan (Everyone hides who they are.)
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To: BereanBrain
Baptism does not save anybody, but it is a sign of acceptance of salvation.

Baptism is a "sign of the parousia of the spirit in judgment". Chew on that for a while. :-)

20 posted on 09/27/2010 7:43:40 PM PDT by Lee N. Field ("Take, drink. Remember and believe that the blood of Jesus was shed for a complete remission ...")
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To: Campion
The red letters are found in many Bibles. However, since Jesus Christ is called the Word.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

This is a clear reference to Jesus Christ, before His in the flesh ministry, that He was always before God the Father together with His Spirit.

So then, what are the so called sayings of Jesus? If every word proceeds from the Word of God (Jesus) then every Scripture is the Words of Jesus Christ. Some before His earthly ministry, some during His in the flesh ministry, and all those Words from Acts through Revelation.

In my Bible, I would logically color "red" ALL words from Genesis to Revelation as the Word of God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

21 posted on 09/27/2010 7:46:14 PM PDT by bibletruth
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To: bibletruth

Ok... A point of clarification. “Every time I pray it is a re-baptism of Spirit. Too bad most folks can’t see the swirling white light that indicates the presence of the Holy Spirit.

I say this based upon experience, not scripture.


22 posted on 09/27/2010 7:50:05 PM PDT by tired&retired
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To: Campion

Actually, I looked at the post again, and I understand your point perfectly. I agree.


23 posted on 09/27/2010 7:52:18 PM PDT by Dexter Morgan (Everyone hides who they are.)
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To: Dexter Morgan
Dexter - what you have here in Acts is a perfect example of Jewish baptism by the 12 apostles (not Paul).

Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ - this is exactly what Philip was commissioned to perform via the believing Jews in Jerusalem (Peter, James, Matthew, John, etc); and from Christ in the closing chapters of the Gospels. Philip was commissioned as any faithful Jewish believer in Jesus to preach the things concerning the kingdom of God, and in the name of Jesus Christ; this is the Gospels were he and the Jerusalem saints were to do: i.e., preach the kingdom of God in the name of Jesus Christ. And to baptize as per Jewish baptism. Remember, Jesus was a Jew! So when Jesus referred to baptism, He only meant Jewish baptism as prescribed in the Old Testament: water.

These are all truths that cannot be denied.

But, when God and the glorified Jesus Christ raised up the apostle Paul in Acts 9; Paul neither went into Jerusalem to confer with Peter, James:

Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

Paul did not receive his commission from Peter (Cephas), James, Matthew, John, or any of the 12 apostles; he received his grace gospel directly from the glorified Christ Jesus; and was taught by God via Christ Jesus for some 14 years [Galatians 2:1] before Paul went to Jerusalem to visit Peter and James. See also 2 Cor 12:2

We further see in Galatians that Peter and those Jewish believers in Jesus were to continue to preach the kingdom of God to the circumcision (Jews).

Galatians 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)

Now at this point, Paul's ministry was the gospel of grace and without water baptism; although he did baptism some, but Paul explicitly said:

1 Cor 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

This is where Spirit baptism come into the picture via Paul's grace gospel to the Gentiles. Praise God for HIS grace message via the Apostle Paul for the uncircumcision which was committed unto Paul for my sake.

24 posted on 09/27/2010 8:19:05 PM PDT by bibletruth
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To: boycott

**Had the man on the cross next to Jesus been Baptized?**

Jesus was still alive, and the Law still observed: “For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator LIVETH.” Hebrews 9:17

**From what I’ve read, Jesus didn’t care so much for all the legalisms.**

He didn’t care for MAN made, self righteous laws added to the laws of God. After healing a leper, Jesus commanded: “See thou say nothing to any man: but go thy way, shew thyelf to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing those things which Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.” Mark 1:44

**And for what it’s worth, I have been baptized.**

OK, was it the scriptural, New Testament way, as found in Acts 2:38?

The page that says ‘New Testament’ in your Bible is placed in the location where the Hebrew text ends, and the Greek begins. Notice that Jesus only met with those closest to him before ascending to heaven, and in his last meeting with them told them to tarry in Jerusalem for the promise of the Father (the Holy Ghost). Some days later came the outpouring of the Holy Ghost (the ‘new and living way’).
So, ‘New Testament’ really takes full effect beginning with the book of Acts.


25 posted on 09/27/2010 8:20:59 PM PDT by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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To: boycott
Had the man on the cross next to Jesus been Baptized?

Perhaps he had been baptized. Perhaps John Baptist had baptized him, and perhaps he had stood in the water with John and confessed the sin and offense against the law for which he was later condemned and crucified.

Or, perhaps the man had not actually committed any offense other than one of a political nature against the Roman Empire. I say this with full realization that the Scripture does label him a "malefactor." We do not know the nature of the offense, or against whom, that put him on a cross.

What we do know is that he recognized the King-ship of Christ and that Christ would come in a Kingdom. He had prior knowledge of what Messiahship meant, and just Who was the Messiah.

We know that the man was not baptized in water between his dying confession of Christ and his bodily death. The Bible does not tell us whether he had ever been baptized in water.

26 posted on 09/27/2010 8:24:58 PM PDT by John Leland 1789 (Grateful)
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To: Zuriel

Very good and informative.

Does that mean a person is going to hell if they haven’t been baptized?

Jesus also said that those that believed in him would have everlasting life.

I am obviously not a theologian so I am not disagreeing. I am only asking an opinion.


27 posted on 09/27/2010 8:31:00 PM PDT by boycott (CAL)
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To: GourmetDan
Actually, baptism is when the believer receives their priesthood.

You would have to do some sufficient accurate cross-referencing between water baptism and priesthood in the post-resurrection dispensation to make this point.

28 posted on 09/27/2010 8:31:10 PM PDT by John Leland 1789 (Grateful)
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To: Citizen Tom Paine
" . . . the original document."

Do you HAVE the original document?

Would you please scan any portion of it and allow us to have a look?

29 posted on 09/27/2010 8:36:00 PM PDT by John Leland 1789 (Grateful)
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To: Zuriel
Correct - ‘New Testament’ really takes full effect beginning with the book of Acts.

Any practice before the book of Acts is in reality, Jewish kingdom saints operating correctly on the kingdom commission prescribed by Jesus Christ during His earthly ministry and immediately after His Resurrection. This ALL pertains to Jewish kingdom commission to only the lost sheep of Israel, and a few Gentile converts, most true. But if someone continues to practice law observance and kingdom preaching - before the book of Acts - then this practice is now part of the former dispensation, not today's dispensation of the grace of God

Eph 2:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth; even in him.

But after Acts 9: a new gospel of grace 'commission' was given to the Apostle Paul to preach to both Jew and Gentile; and to break down the middle wall of partition between Jew and Gentile.

Eph 2:14 For he is our peach, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us

30 posted on 09/27/2010 8:38:04 PM PDT by bibletruth
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To: bibletruth

It appears that you have made this a cuacus to no avail.


31 posted on 09/27/2010 8:40:16 PM PDT by John Leland 1789 (Grateful)
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To: John Leland 1789

Luke 23:34 - Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.


Jesus even asked for the forgiveness of those that crucified him. Thankfully, we have a forgiving Lord.


32 posted on 09/27/2010 8:40:20 PM PDT by boycott (CAL)
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To: boycott
"Jesus even asked for the forgiveness of those that crucified him. Thankfully, we have a forgiving Lord." In perfect agreement with these statements.
33 posted on 09/27/2010 8:43:47 PM PDT by John Leland 1789 (Grateful)
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To: Citizen Tom Paine
Quote: read the original document

I have studied manuscript evidence and know for sure that the so called newer Greek manuscripts to not exist in their book format from from Matthew to Revelation. Rather, they are a piecing together of hundreds of fragments of what I believe is corrupt manuscripts from some men who even denied the Deity of Christ! God Forbid that I would trust men who denied the Deity of Christ and would piece together corrupt manuscripts and say that these are more accurate...

So I too ask you to show me the original documents...

But be sure to show me Matthew to Revelation.

34 posted on 09/27/2010 8:48:56 PM PDT by bibletruth
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To: John Leland 1789

Precise ping...


35 posted on 09/27/2010 8:51:42 PM PDT by bibletruth
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To: bibletruth

KJV only?

Not those who read the original Greek?


36 posted on 09/27/2010 8:58:00 PM PDT by LadyDoc (liberals only love politically correct poor people)
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To: bibletruth
Does no one have any comments or Biblical proof to refute the Headship of Christ and the Preeminence of Christ in His Headship over the Body of Christ, the Church, which is HIS body of all true grace believers.

Christ Resurrection Qualified Him to be the HEAD of the Church

Christ is the head of the Body of Christ - all true believers. And Christ is the head of the church - all true believers. This is Biblical as seen in Colossians:

Colossians 1:18 And he [Christ] is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Christ's Preeminence

If you deny that Christ is the head of the Body, the Church, which is HIS body; then you have denied HIS preeminence - God Forbid! Never I'm my former sinner's life would I even contemplate to deny HIS preeminence. Or maybe you think that your church has replaced Christ's preeminence; but in so thinking, you have denied the preeminence of Christ as Head over the Church and you have made preeminence out of a building, rather than the glory of Christ's preeminence!

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Christ is the head of the Church, which is the Body of Christ consisting of true Bible believing Christians.

These truths are evident in Scripture. Ephesians 4:15 may [we] grow up into him [Christ] in all things, which is the head, even Christ.

37 posted on 09/27/2010 9:00:24 PM PDT by bibletruth
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To: BereanBrain

**Baptism does not save anybody, but it is a sign of acceptance of salvation.**

Really? Jesus commanded water baptism: “Verily, verily, I ay unto thee, Except a MAN be born of water (no comma) and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of flesh is flesh; and that which is born of Spirit is spirit.” John 3:5,6 Notice that the Lord did NOT say: “that which is born of water is flesh”.

Those that think that the ‘water’ means natural birth are insulting the intellingence of the Lord and Nicodemas. Jesus certainly didn’t have to explain that someone has to be naturally born first, that’s obvious. If you haven’t been naturally born, you don’t exist. (If someone still believes that the ‘water’ means natural birth, I certainly don’t think I could drink that ‘solution’.)

Jesus commanded his disciples to baptise in Matt. 28:19, Mark 16:16, and alluded to it by commanding them in Luke 24:47 “that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his NAME among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem”. So, starting in Jerusalem, the disciples followed his orders, beginning with Peter in Acts 2:38, who commanded: “Repent, and be baptized EVERY ONE of you in the NAME of Jesus Christ for the REMISSION of SINS, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

There are several accounts in Acts of converts being baptized. The apostles were very strict about it.


38 posted on 09/27/2010 9:00:29 PM PDT by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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To: LadyDoc
So I too ask you to show me the original documents...

But be sure to show me original documents from Matthew to Revelation.

I am not impressed by scholars who read the original Greek manuscripts. I have many scholar commentaries (numbering over 50) and I have often found that their respect of God's Word is unchristian, sometimes even to the point to deny the Deity of Christ. Why should I be impressed with someone who says that they read the original Greek documents?

39 posted on 09/27/2010 9:06:14 PM PDT by bibletruth
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To: bibletruth

**Clearly now it is most probable, based upon Scripture in the Word of God in John, that the baptism which the Apostle Paul mentioned in Romans 6, is the baptism which the Apostle John in John 1 mentioned.**

Zzzztt!! Wrong. In Acts 19 we read that Paul met ‘certain disciples’ in Ephesus, asked them if they had “received the Holy Ghost since ye believed”. He found they had been baptized “unto John’s baptism. He then baptized them in the NAME of the Lord Jesus. Then he laid his hands on them and they received the Holy Ghost and prophesied.


40 posted on 09/27/2010 9:09:00 PM PDT by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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To: Citizen Tom Paine

If dipping, in your opinion, is not completely immersed, then ask a sheep farmer if a partial immersion is going to treat his critters.

“Buried with him”. Jesus was not partially in the tomb.


41 posted on 09/27/2010 9:15:32 PM PDT by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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To: Campion

LOL


42 posted on 09/27/2010 9:16:26 PM PDT by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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To: bibletruth

**But after Acts 9: a new gospel of grace ‘commission’ was given to the Apostle Paul to preach to both Jew and Gentile; and to break down the middle wall of partition between Jew and Gentile.**

Peter, who was given the ‘keys’, had to be present for the three main groups of people to receive the Holy Ghost. He opened the ‘doors’ to the Jews in Acts 2, to the Samaritans in Acts 8, and to the Gentiles in Acts 10. Paul hadn’t preached to any Gentiles until sometime later. While Peter still struggled with some of the Law, he did believe the Gentiles were included, after seeing them receive the Holy Ghost as he testified to the brethern in Acts 11.


43 posted on 09/27/2010 9:27:01 PM PDT by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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To: boycott

**Does that mean a person is going to hell if they haven’t been baptized?**

If I were to sit back and try to figure out who has heard and obeyed the whole gospel, I would be inserting myself into a place (judging) that is not mine. You or I are not to judge the souls of men (and women). He is telling us how to believe on him. For example, He called Able and Cain to serve him, but Cain tried the easy way (the disobedient way), when he no doubt knew from his father Adam what a proper sacrifice was. Noah, Abraham, etc. were given a call that physically had to be acted upon.

The Lord’s terms of being faithful changed at times, and he still expects a physical response (even going to hear a preacher for the first time is a physical act).

Ours is not to wonder why, ours is but to do or die! ;)


44 posted on 09/27/2010 9:42:10 PM PDT by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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To: Zuriel

Peter...given the “keys”...oh God help them see that the glorified Christ Jesus after Acts 9 and 14 years later, utilized Paul, not Peter, who was commissioned by Almighty God to preach the Word of God in the Grace of God to the Gentiles, kings, Jews, and nations for this past 2000 years in this dispensation of grace, not of works of the law which no man could perform in order to be made righteous. The keys Peter had were for, at most, the preaching of the gospel message of the kingdom of God, not the dispensation of fulness of the times, in which the middle wall partitian was broken down for us, Jew and Gentile, together, one new creature In Christ. Peter correctly preached the great commission, starting with Israel, and later began to preach to Gentiles. But Peter was never commissioned by the glorified Christ Jesus to preach the mystery of the grace of God: that was Paul. That is biblical and doctrinally correct.


45 posted on 09/27/2010 9:55:50 PM PDT by bibletruth
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To: Zuriel

Ours is not to wonder why, ours is but to do or die! ;)


Agree.

Thanks for the reply. It is good and useful information.


46 posted on 09/27/2010 10:03:53 PM PDT by boycott (CAL)
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To: bibletruth

As I pointed out, Paul rebaptized believers in Ephesus, in the NAME of Jesus, and then they received the Holy Ghost. The Word is not clear as to whether these ‘certain disciples’ were Jew or Gentile, just that they were baptized unto John’s baptism.

The epistles were written to souls that had already been born again. Note the phrases ‘called to be saints’ or ‘to the saints’ in the first chapters in many of those letters.
The epistles are to be read in that context.

WAAAY past my bedtime! I’ll be back tomorrow if need be.

Lord bless


47 posted on 09/27/2010 10:11:30 PM PDT by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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To: Zuriel
Yes, I am not denying that Paul did indeed baptize some as you pointed out. Those are all good points you made. But...

But the Biblical direction that I was primarily trying to make is that sometime later, after A.D. 56, Paul began preaching:

1 Cor 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Now in and around A.D. 56 (approx.) Paul begin preaching that Christ did not send him to baptize, but to preach the gospel - of grace, in this dispensation of God's grace.

So it is evident from Scripture that Paul, after A.D. 56, did not spend his time baptizing people after they come to a saving knowledge of Christ. For Paul knew by then that water baptism was not a baptism of salvation. Then the remaining years of Paul's ministry, Paul did not baptize [1 Cor 1:17].

Peter, contrariwise, would never, never, think of preventing water baptism for someone saved. Peter would never do such a thing: why: because this was Peter's kingdom commission by Jesus Christ during His earthly ministry, and instructions after He rose from the dead.

Water baptism for today's grace believer has been replaced with Spirit baptism as we see in Romans 6:3-5. The book of Romans was written after Corinthians; therefore, when Paul wrote in 1 Cor 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. He wrote this before he wrote Romans. Therefore, by the time Paul reaches Romans 6, Paul knows that he was not sent to baptize, therefore, Romans 6 is not water baptism; it is Spirit baptism by the Holy Spirit at the precise moment a person believes with faith in the resurrected Jesus Christ. Water baptism, today, does not save. Holy Spirit baptism, is the sign of salvation today:

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation:in whom also after that ye believed, YE WERE SEALED with THAT HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE, Which is the EARNEST or our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

People who fail to see this, fail to give up their presuppositions; or the church doctrines which they learned which did not follow precisely what God was doing with the Apostle Paul.

Peter and Paul were on equal ground. Peter did not supersede Paul, neither back then 2000 years ago, nor even today, 2000 years later. God greatly used Peter. God greatly used Paul; but today's usage was separate from Peter and not UNDER Peter's authority today, but under Christ's authority today and forever. Christ's authority is as the head of the Body of Christ - all true believers. And Christ is the head of the church - all true believers. This is Biblical as seen in Colossians:

Colossians 1:18 And he [Christ] is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Paul did not learn his doctrines from Peter. Paul learned his doctrines from the glorified Christ Jesus for 14 years. Peter had a different training: which was the lessons he learned from the earthly "kingdom of God" ministry of Jesus Christ, before his resurrection. And yes, Peter did learn some new doctrines after Christ's resurrection. Peter did fulfill his ministry to Jesus; and did it accurately. Peter did not write a majority of the letters in the New Testament. Paul wrote Romans through Philemon: 13 in total. Letters in which Peter acknowledged.

In 2 Peter 3:15, Peter even acknowledged Paul:

Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

When churches follow Peter as everything in all doctrine and instruction in the law, protocol, baptism, kingdom living way of life for today; Peter even then warns them: they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

48 posted on 09/27/2010 11:34:48 PM PDT by bibletruth
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To: John Leland 1789
"You would have to do some sufficient accurate cross-referencing between water baptism and priesthood in the post-resurrection dispensation to make this point."

Ah yes, dispensationalism. Assume that 'a priori' and then require evidence consistent with that assumed paradigm.

Did you ever think that assuming the paradigm was the problem in the first place?

I'll guess that you haven't.

49 posted on 09/28/2010 5:55:23 AM PDT by GourmetDan (Eccl 10:2 - The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left.)
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To: Dexter Morgan
Philip was preaching the Gospel in Samaria and obviously had the authority to baptize. He did not have the authority to give the Holy Ghost.

Here is where knowledge of the Greek language is critical for doctrinal formation. Your believe that Peter and John had some kind of apostolic authority to give the Holy Spirit is off base. Often times in Greek (especially questions) statements are made in such a way that answers or refinement is implied. This is such a case.

The statement "For as yet he was fallen upon none of them ..." is constructed in the Greek in such a way as to imply that additional idea that "BUT HE SHOULD HAVE." The HS had not as of yet fallen (but He should have) ...

Very similar to Pauls "Shall we continue to sin that grace may abound?" The implied answer is "No" and the Greek construct confirms this.

The Holy Spirit had not fallen on the people of Samaria when they believed ... but He should have. The critical question here is "why?" I believe you will find the answer if you continue in Acts ... The apostles themselves needed to witness the same falling of the HS on the Samarians so they would be convinced their conversion was real. This is in keeping with the gospel speading out from Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, whole world. You can see the conclusion of the entire episode when Peter went back to the other apostles in Jerusalem and told them "the spirit fell on them like us in the beginning" Acts 11.15 ...

The other factor that explains the delay in the baptism of the HS to the Samarians is historical ... the Samarians were despised by Jews ... recall the disciples were dismayed that Jesus was talking to the Samarian woman at the well. This episode was was essential to the growth of the early church.

Hence Philip told those whom he had baptized to go see Peter and John, who were authorized to give the converts the Holy Ghost.

The text does not say that at all, you are reading your belief into it ... it says the apostles HEARD that Samaria had received the Word, and they sent John and Peter to check it out for themselves.

It is apparent to me that the conversion of the Samarians was a unique event in Acts like no other ... and that was for a specific purpose ... to confirm to the apostles that Samarians (and Gentiles) were to be included in the body of Christ.

50 posted on 09/28/2010 7:34:34 AM PDT by dartuser
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