Posted on 10/06/2010 7:11:52 AM PDT by DouglasKC
Traditional beliefs about heaven and hell are based on an under-lying teaching—that everyone has an immortal soul that must go somewhere when physical life ends.
This belief isn't unique to traditional Christianity. "All religions affirm that there is an aspect of the human person that lives on after the physical life has ended" (World Scripture: A Comparative Anthology of Sacred Texts, Andrew Wilson, editor, 1995, p. 225). In other words, in general, all religions believe in some kind of immortal essence, a spirit that lives on separately after the physical body dies. Most professing Christians call this the immortal soul.
Failure to understand this subject correctly is a fundamental reason for the prevalent beliefs regarding heaven and hell. If an immortal quality exists in a human being, it must depart from the body when the body dies. The typical views of heaven and hell have as their foundation the belief in the immortal soul that leaves the body at death.
What does the Bible say about the existence of an immortal soul? Does this belief have a foundation in Scripture?
Many are surprised to learn that the words "immortal" and "soul" appear together nowhere in the Bible. "Theologians frankly admit that the expression 'immortal soul' is not in the Bible but confidently state that Scripture assumes the immortality of every soul" (Edward Fudge, The Fire That Consumes, 1994, p. 22, emphasis added throughout).
Considering how confidently theologians hold to this doctrine, it's quite surprising that such an important assumption is not spelled out in the Bible. If it isn't found in the Bible, where did the idea originate?
The New Bible Dictionary offers this background on the nonbiblical nature of the immortal-soul doctrine: "The Greeks thought of the body as a hindrance to true life and they looked for the time when the soul would be free from its shackles. They conceived of life after death in terms of the immortality of the soul" (1996, p. 1010, "Resurrection").
According to this idea, the body goes to the grave at death and the soul continues to exist as a separate, conscious entity.
Belief in a separate soul and body was popular in ancient Greece and was taught by one of its most famous philosophers: "The immortality of the soul was a principal doctrine of the Greek philosopher, Plato ...In Plato's thinking, the soul ...was self-moving and indivisible ...It existed before the body which it inhabited, and which it would survive" (Fudge, p. 32).
When and how did the concept of the immortality of the soul enter the world of Christianity? The Old Testament does not teach it. The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia explains: "We are influenced always more or less by the Greek, Platonic idea that the body dies, yet the soul is immortal. Such an idea is utterly contrary to the Israelite consciousness and is nowhere found in the Old Testament" (1960, Vol. 2, p. 812, "Death").
The first-century Church did not hold to this belief either: "The doctrine is increasingly regarded as a post-apostolic innovation, not only unnecessary but positively harmful to proper biblical interpretation and understanding" (Fudge, p. 24).
If such an idea was not taught in the Church during the time of the apostles, how did it come to assume such an important place in Christian doctrine?
Several authorities recognize that the teachings of Plato and other Greek philosophers have profoundly influenced Christianity. History and religious studies professor Jeffrey Russell states, "The unbiblical idea of immortality did not die but even flourished, because theologians ...admired Greek philosophy [and] found support there for the notion of the immortal soul" (A History of Heaven, 1997, p. 79).
The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, in its article on death, states that "the 'departure' of the nephesh [soul] must be viewed as a figure of speech, for it does not continue to exist independently of the body, but dies with it...No biblical text authorizes the statement that the 'soul' is separated from the body at the moment of death" (1962, Vol. 1, p. 802, "Death").
Should we then accept a teaching that is not found in the Bible? Many people take it for granted that their beliefs are based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ and God's Word. Yet Jesus said in a prayer to His Father, "Your word is truth" (John 17:17). Does God give men the liberty to draw from the world's philosophers and incorporate their beliefs into biblical teaching as though they were fact?
God inspired the apostle Peter to write, "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit" (2 Peter 1:20-21). We must look to the words of Christ, the prophets and the apostles in the Holy Scriptures if we are to understand the truth about the doctrine of the immortality of the soul or any other religious teaching.
Let's dig further to see exactly what the Bible tells us about the soul.
The Hebrew word most often translated into English as "soul" in the Bible is nephesh. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible succinctly defines this word as meaning "a breathing creature." When used in the Bible, nephesh does not mean a spirit entity or the spirit within a person. Rather, itusually means a physical, living, breathing creature. Occasionally it conveys a related meaning such as breath, life or person.
Surprising to many, this term nephesh is used torefer not just to human beings, but also to animals. For example, notice the account of the creation of sea life: "And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good" (Genesis 1:21, King James Version). The Hebrew word translated "creature" in this verse is nephesh. In the biblical account, these particular "souls," creatures of the sea, were made before the first human beings were formed and given life.
The term is also applied to birds (verse 30) and land animals, including cattle and "creeping" creatures such as reptiles and insects (verse 24). It follows, then, if we make an argument for man possessing an immortal soul, animals must also have an immortal soul, since the same Hebrew word is used of man and animal alike. Yet no biblical scholars would seriously make such claims for animals. The truth is, the term soul refers to any living creature, whether man or beast—not to some separate, living essence temporarily inhabiting the body.
In the Old Testament, man is referred to as a "soul" (Hebrew nephesh) more than 130 times. The first place we find nephesh in reference to mankind is in the second chapter of Genesis: "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" (verse 7, KJV).
The word translated "soul" in this verse is again the Hebrew word nephesh. Other translations of the Bible state that man became a living "being" or "person." This verse does not say that Adam had an immortal soul; rather it says that God breathed into Adam the "breath of life," and Adam became a living soul. At the end of his days, when the breath of life left Adam, he died and returned to dust.
The Old Testament plainly teaches that the soul dies. God told Adam and Eve, two "living souls," that they would "surely die" if they disobeyed Him (Genesis 2:17). God also told Adam that He had taken him from the dust of the earth and he would return to dust (Genesis 3:19).
Among the plainer statements in the Bible about what happens to the soul at death are Ezekiel 18:4 and 18:20. Both passages clearly state that "the soul who sins shall die." Again, the word for "soul" here is nephesh. In fact, this same word was even used of corpses—dead bodies (see Leviticus 22:4; Numbers 5:2; 6:11; 9:6-10).
Not only do all these scriptures show that the soul indeed can and does die, but the soul is identified as a physical being—not a separate spirit entity with existence independent of its physical host.
The Scriptures tell us that the dead have no consciousness: "For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing" (Ecclesiastes 9:5). They are not conscious in some other state or place (see "Jesus Christ and Biblical Writers Compare Death to Sleep").
The New Testament contains several statements confirming that the wicked who refuse to repent will die—permanently. In Matthew 7:13-14, in exhorting His disciples to choose the way that leads to life, Jesus states that the end of those who do not choose life is destruction. He contrasts that path with the way of righteousness, telling us, "Narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."
Jesus, moreover, made it quite clear that utter destruction includes both "soul and body" (Matthew 10:28), the Greek word for "soul" (psyche or psuche) referring to physical, conscious existence (see "Do Some Bible Verses Teach We Have an Immortal Soul?" begining on page 8).
The apostle Paul also stated that the wicked will die. In Romans 6:20-21 he talks about those who were slaves of sin and says that for them "the end of those things is death." So those who are slaves of sin, who habitually commit sin, can perish completely. Yet many attempt to redefine death here and in other scriptural passages to mean merely separation from God.
Romans 6:23 is one of the best-known verses of the Bible. It plainly states, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Again, people will argue that death here means an eternal life of separation from God. Note, however, that death here is directly contrasted with eternal life. How, then, can death involve eternal existence through an immortal soul?
This verse plainly tells us two crucial truths. First, the punishment of the wicked is death, utter cessation of life, not a life of eternal suffering in another place (see also Philippians 3:18-19; 2 Thessalonians 1:9). Second, we do not already have eternal life through a supposed immortal soul. Eternal life is something God must give us through our Savior, Jesus the Messiah. In 1 Timothy 6:16 Paul also tells us that God alone has immortality.
Paul makes a similar statement in Galatians 6:8: "The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life" (NIV). This tells us what happens to unrepentant sinners. Eventually they will reap destruction, referring to wasting away and perishing, but those who repent and obey God will ultimately receive eternal life.
So is man an immortal soul? No. Does he have an immortal soul? No. The Bible declares plainly that man is temporary, of the dust of the earth. There is no immortal quality about man at all—unless and until he receives it from God through a resurrection, which means being brought back to life in a body, raised from the dead as Jesus was.
The Bible clearly states that man puts on immortality at the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:50-54), not at the end of his physical life. Until that time man has no more permanence than animals.
Nor does man have some spiritual soul with conscious awareness independent of the physical body. This has been proven time and time again when individuals have gone into comas for weeks, months and sometimes years at a time, only to emerge from that comatose state with no memory or recollection of the passage of time.
If one had a soul that existed independently of the human body, wouldn't that soul have some memory of remaining aware during the months or years the body was unconscious? That would be powerful and logical proof of the existence of an independent soul within the human body—yet no one has ever reported any such thing, in spite of thousands of such occurrences.
This fact likewise supports what the Bible teaches—that consciousness ceases at death. Only through a resurrection to life will consciousness return.
Such an assertion is clearly contradicted by Rev. 6:9-10 Which tells us of the conscious souls in Heaven crying out to God to avenge their martyrdom.
I guess they could be interpreted that way. But seems to me that the New Testament clearly teaches that those who are not in Christ go to their punishment when they die - and that punishment is not merely ceasing to exist.
> Matthew 10:28
Beat me to it.
Absolutely correct.
Jesus is my Final Authority!
Exactly. God can destroy our souls...they're not immortal. This verse is talking about how God has promised a resurrection to life, a life with consciousness, to believers. Conversely, their is also a ressurection to death:
Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
Joh 5:29 and come forth— those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
Also: Rev 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
The lake of fire is "hell" or gehenna referred to in the verse you quoted.
Man can only kill us...and then we have a resurrection. But God can destroy us utterly, body and soul, in the lake of fire.
pinging myself to read and study later.
Seems to me that this is a whole lot of speculation and naval gazing by the author and not a whole lot of scholarship.
Baloney.
Explain why Jesus Himself told about “a certain man” who was suffering in Hell in Luke chapter 16. “A certain man” is thought by many scholars to mean an actual person. So Jesus was not merely talking about allegory. He was relating a true story - about a MAN IN HELL who was suffering.
Notice that most of this bogus article’s statements that there is no soul don’t use scripture to back them up.
Satan would love nothing more than to get people to think there was no punishment except going to sleep.
Mar 9:42 ¶ And whosoever shall offend one of [these] little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Mar 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
I personally think when you die you basically fall asleep and reawaken at the 2nd coming so that for you it feels like you were transported instantly through time. I do not believe that good people that have died are in Heaven waiting on us, they are asleep also and we will all see each other again at the resurrection, which will seem like it happens instantly from a dead persons perspective. Of course I could be wrong, and I know that for many people it makes them feel better knowing that their dead loved ones are looking down on them from heaven, but I am content to know that I will see them again at the 2nd coming.
“immortal” and “eternal” are totally different things.
seems to me there is a BIG difference between destroy and annihilate.
For example the destruction of Rome took many years. So the destruction of the soul and body in Hell may take an *eternity*. Nowhere does it say the act of destroying is *immediate*.
To completely destroy is to annihilate.
I would hate for someone to assume annihilation of the soul, and find out otherwise that he awakens to an eternal process.....
But how can a process be internal? Ever had calculus? Limit theory?
So I destroy 1/2 in the first day, 1/2 the remaining the second day, etc, etc. I will never run out of 1/2s......(or for that matter, dividing by any number)
Stephen said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” (Acts 7:59)
Jesus “...put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison...” (1 Peter 3:18-19)
etc.
There are several passages that suggest that spiritual communion with God through Jesus is not broken by physical death. The concepts of soul and spirit are not easily distinguished. The platonic concept is not biblical, however. It is an immortal body we hope for.
There is a difference between suffering in hell during the interval between the time of death and the final judgment. Annihilationists read the scriptures to indicate that while Satan and his already other immortal minions will suffer eternal punishment, those who are not saved in Christ will be destroyed utterly. Look at the metaphors for what happens to the unsaved after the final judgment -- burned up as chaff, cast into the outer darkness, burned off as impurities, etc. These are metaphors for destruction.
The Lazarus and the rich man example you give is taking place during the time of punishment for the unsaved, not after the final judgment.
I haven't made up my mind on annihilationism yet, but this article makes the distinction, as well as the distinctly greek and gnostic roots of the mind/body/soul separation, very clear.
Here is another excellent resource with scriptural confirmation of these beliefs.
http://www.jacksequeira.org/bstudy17.htm
Here is another excellent resource with scriptural confirmation of these beliefs.
http://www.jacksequeira.org/bstudy17.htm
To be absent fron the body is to be present with the Lord (for believers).
As they say:
I am not a human being having a spiritual experience. I am a spiritual being having a human experience.
Here is the verse in question:
Rev 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
Rev 6:11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
First it's important to remember that this is referring to a future time, the opening of the fifth seal. Most think that this corresponds to the beginning of the tribulation period. So even IF this is referring to immortal souls (the question) it may just be referring to a future time when souls are awaiting resurrection.
But considering the preponderance of scriptural evidence that shows that souls die then the explanation for this is that this is symbolic. Compare:
Gen 4:9 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Where is Abel your brother?" He said, "I do not know. Am I my brother's keeper?"
Gen 4:10 And He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood cries out to Me from the ground.
Based on this scripture I don't think anyone would draw the conclusion that blood is immortal. So too we should strive to look at all the relevant scripture when drawing conclusions.
The problem with believing that the parable of Lazarus and the rich man is a description of a literal hell is that you then have to accept every element of it as literal.
1. The parable never mentions God or heaven.
2. The parable never mentions that the rich man was a sinner deserving of hell.
3. Abraham has the power to send people between "heaven" and "hell" if this is taken literally.
It's a parable about how Israel and the Jews had all the great promises of God, the riches of being God's chosen...and how they took advantage of it and fed scraps to those not of Israel, the gentiles. It's a prediction that the gentiles would one day be exalted while the Jews would be brought low.
Notice that most of this bogus article’s statements that there is no soul don’t use scripture to back them up.
I disagree.
Satan would love nothing more than to get people to think there was no punishment except going to sleep.
He would. But that's not what the article is asserting.
A couple of things about this verse.
1. The word translated "punishment" is the greek "kolasis" (transliterated). It means a penal correction, a judgment. It's only used twice in the NT..this being one of them. The eternal punishment for sinners IS death, according to scripture:
(Rom 6:23) For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
2. There is a an "everlasting" component referred to earlier:
Mat 25:39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' Mat 25:40 And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'
Mat 25:44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'
Mat 25:45 Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
So the FIRE is everlasting. And the everlasting fire was prepared FOR the devil and his angels. That's because they are spirit, not flesh and blood. Evil men will burn up because they don't have eternal life.
Or the rich man in Hell, who saw Lazarus in Heaven and begged God for a drop of water, or the chance to tell his brothers that they, too, will be in Hell for all eternity unless they repent.
Ed
Scripture confirms this. After telling of the faith of giants just as Abraham and Moses the author of Hebrews says:
Heb 11:39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,
Heb 11:40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.
The promise which they didn't receive, and which we haven't received, is eternal life. We who have believed will be made perfect at the same time, at the return of Christ:
1Th 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
Those who are alive won't be made perfect BEFORE those who sleep in Christ:
1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Taken as a literal represention of heaven and hell than that parable doesn't mention God or heaven. And it's Abraham who has the power.
Excellent resource...thank you.
Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
I'll grant you that Annilation is "an everlasting punishment" but when I read Mark, I'm not so sure Annilation is what is contemplated here. Although for the sake of the damned, I would much rather see them annilated than burned for eternity.
On the otherhand, time for us seems linear, yet one can infer from scripture that God seems to exist in all points in time simultaneously, thus he knows the future. This difference in perspective on time, may come into effect here. It might also come into effect from the vantage view of the damned.
Paul said to be absent the body was to be in the presence of the Lord. I believe that those who have "fallen asleep" from our perspective are already with the Lord.
Thats why it says "those who are alive will not precede those who sleep". Because it's the other way around, those who sleep have already preceded us.
I think 4:16 out of context is easily misread into the Christ descends into the clouds, dead rise first, then living rise. When actually, it's the dead rise first, Christ descends with the dead into the clouds, and the living rise to meet them.
The reason I believe that in conjunction with Pauls comment about being present with the Lord is 1Th 4:14:
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
I am not going to argue with you, but it does seem you are trying hard to find something that may not be there.
I know it is hard to abandon traditional truths, but what I have told many a friend, if the Bible seems to contradict, then it is your view that is contradicting and we need to figure out what the Bible is saying. Often, we over complicate things to fit the teachings of whatever Church we were raised in or like. Traditions often do not fit well with the Bible. Do we elevate traditions to the same level as scripture, or do we give up our beloved traditions in favor of Biblical scripture?
The various theologies (liberation, gay, black, black liberation, etc.) freely and forcefully change and distort and complicate scripture to fit their views. Is that what we want to do?
That verse in Mark is taken from the book of Isaiah: Isa 66:24 And they shall go out and see the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against Me; for their worm shall not die, nor shall their fire be put out; and they shall be an object of disgust to all flesh.
So first it's referring clearly to "dead bodies" and not any kind of eternal life.
The book of Malachi says abou the wicked:
Mal 4:1 "For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up," Says the LORD of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch.
So he clearly says the wicked are going to be burned up, stubble.
To reconcile these verses many believe that the "worm" being referred to are maggots, which don't die but turn into flies.
When Christ talked about hell fire, he most often was using it as a reference to Gehenna. From the article:
What is the "hell" spoken of in this verse? The Greek word used here is gehenna, which comes from the combination of two Hebrew words, gai and hinnom, meaning "Valley of Hinnom." The term originally referred to a valley on the south side of Jerusalem in which pagan deities were worshipped.
Because of its reputation as an abominable place, it later became a garbage dump where refuse was burned. Gehenna became synonymous with "a place of burning"—a site used to dispose of useless things.
So too is the fate of the wicked.
I'll grant you that Annilation is "an everlasting punishment" but when I read Mark, I'm not so sure Annilation is what is contemplated here. Although for the sake of the damned, I would much rather see them annilated than burned for eternity.
And that's what I believe scripture teaches that a merciful and loving God does.
This is not what the scriptures teaches. Our Lord stated to the Pharisees :
Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, [and] all the nations that forget God.
You make the claim that ”The eternal punishment for sinners IS death, according to scripture”
as if death and hell were separate. Again, you’re assuming death = annihilation. But the scriptures state otherwise. Isaiah equates death and hell as the same thing:
It is a practice in OT writing to say the exact same thing in a different way to emphasize a point. In this case, “We have made a covenant with death” and “with hell are we in agreement” is the same thing to the author. So agreement = covenant and death = hell. And, of course, David compared heaven to hell:
We mistakenly think we have a “choice” to decide whether we are going to go to heaven or hell. But I think there is ample evidence to support the fact that all people are destined for hell and God rescues us from our fate. This is why David says with great gratitude:
God the Father, like He did with Christ, rescues us and delivers us from hell (death). The devil and demons are cast INTO hell. A very distinct but important difference. In a very real sense we, believers and non-believers, represent a mirror image of angels and demons.
Hell isn’t annihilation. Rather hell is just as real as heaven. Christ went there for three days, believers are rescued from hell while the wicked will go there upon death, and the devil and demons will someday be cast into hell. Annihilation is simply a wrong-headed method of Christians trying to sooth their conscience about how God could toss people into hell’s eternal torment. They simply don’t understand the brilliant splendor and radiance of God’s holiness. Quite frankly, the purity of God is difficult to grasp but it’s no excuse for trying to explain away the obvious.
John Wesley and Martin Luther don't qualify as Biblical scholars in this author's estimation, apparently.
1. You are using the term "hell" interchangebly where the hebrew and greek doesn't neccesarily match. For example, you quoted Jesus in Matthew 23:33. He used the term "gehenna" a reference to the lake of fire where non-believers will be burned up.
You also quoted Acts 2:31:
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
The word translated "hell" here is "hades" and it means basically the grave. His soul was NOT left in the grave. He was resurrected as the verse shows.
You make the claim that ”The eternal punishment for sinners IS death, according to scripture” as if death and hell were separate. Again, you’re assuming death = annihilation. But the scriptures state otherwise.
Death and hell ARE separate. The "hell" that is the fire and brimstone is gehenna. Sinners meet their ultimate fate, their death, at gehenna, or in hell, at the resurrection of the unjust.
Isa 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: It is a practice in OT writing to say the exact same thing in a different way to emphasize a point. In this case, “We have made a covenant with death” and “with hell are we in agreement” is the same thing to the author
I would disagree with your analysis here. The words translated "death" and "hell" are two different words. The first, death, is the hebrew maveth, and in scriptural usage it means the end of life. The second is "sheol" and it more properly denotes the grave, or the resting place of the dead. So while closely linked, they're not the same.
Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou [art] there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou [art there]. Contrary to the majority of understanding, God the Father is just as much in hell as He is in heaven. Otherwise God would not be everywhere. Hell in scripture is just as real as heaven is. What is different is that Christ is NOT in hell. God (the Father) would not allow it.
I think that most would recognize that this is poetic language describing that God is with us whether we go up to the sky or whether we go below the earth. It's not a theological statement about heaven and hell, as the verse in context makes clear:
Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Psa 139:9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
Psa 139:10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
Psa 139:11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
Psa 139:12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
To sum up, "hell" (gehenna) is the lake of fire mentioned in Revelation 19 and 20. It's also referred to countless other times in both the OT and the NT. It's also known as the 2nd death:
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
This second death is called the second death because they are resurrected to a physical life and then cast into the lake of fire to die a second, and final, death.
John Wesley and Martin Luther believed that animals have immortal souls??
I did some research on Luther and found this quote by him:
"It is probable, in my opinion, that, with very few exceptions indeed, the dead sleep in utter insensibility till the day of judgment . . . On what authority can it be said that the souls of the dead may not sleep . . . in the same way that the living pass in profound slumber the interval between their downlying at night and their uprising in the morning?" (Letter to Nicholas Amsdorf, Jan. 13, 1522, quoted in Jules Michelet, The Life of Luther, translated by William Hazlitt, 1862, p. 133)
So apparently Luther wasn't convinced of the immortal soul personally.
- Martin Luther
I'm not saying he did or didn't, but though I can find that quote attributed to Luther ad nauseum (especially on pet websites) I can't find where he might have said that. Do you know of the specific work?
Luther discusses the restoration of all things, including beloved Clownie of the little golden tail, at that time recently deceased and belonging to one of his children.
According to my concordinance, it states:
γέεννα geenna gheh'-en-nah - Of Hebrew origin ([H1516] and [H2011]); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - hell.
Death and hell ARE separate.
If you are defining "hell" as "shehloe" (defined as grave or hell) then they are not separate. If you are defining "hell" as gehenna, then there is an everlasting punishment. All men go to shehloe. Not all men go to gehenna.
Sinners meet their ultimate fate, their death, at gehenna
If that is the case, as it is, then this is not annihilation according to the definition of gehenna. Rather it is everlasting punishment.
Isa 28:15 Because ye have said,...I would disagree with your analysis here. The words translated "death" and "hell" are two different words.
They of course are two different words. The author is saying the same thing in two different ways. In this case death is used as the following:
מות mâveth - maw'-veth, From H4191; death (natural or violent); concretely the dead, their place or state (hades); figuratively pestilence, ruin: - (be) dead ([-ly]), death, die (-d).
The word used here for "hell" is the word "shehloe". Based upon the definitions, there is little difference.
To sum up, "hell" (gehenna) is the lake of fire mentioned in Revelation 19 and 20. It's also referred to countless other times in both the OT and the NT.
I would agree. But gehenna by definition means everlasting punishment. It does not refer to be burned up and *POOF* you're gone.
Above and beyond the lesser Creatures, Luther here discussed the Biblically-founded notion of "soul sleep." I find it controversial myself, but have to admit there are legitimate reasons to believe as he and many others did and still do, that the dead know nothing until being resurrected.
The "soul" is in the blood, it's the physical experiences, the memories, the sum total of a person while in this world, and it passes with physical death, according to certain Biblical passages. This point of view, views us as tripartite beings, an echo of the Trinity, a vessel of God created in His image, as body, soul and spirit. Upon death, the body returns to the dust from whence it came, the soul "sleeps" until Judgment Day and the spirit returns to Him, from whence it came.
There is ample source material for this on the internet available, so I don't feel the need to spend a great deal of time laying it out, since I don't fully accept it myself, but there it is.
It's not quite correct to say that Luther didn't believe in the immortality of souls as a result.
Thanks for the reference...I'll check it out.
Available for free download at http://www.archive.org if you’re so inclined.
Yes and no. It's everlasting punishment for Satan and his demons because they are NOT physical creatures. I'm not certain that it's real "fire" or the spiritual equivalent, but it's clear that they are held there.
Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Satan and (presumably) his angels are sent to this fire in Revelation 20:10.
So the concordance is right in that respect. But the fate of humans should also be based on biblical evidence. For example:
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
It's perish, or eternal life. The primary meaning of the word translated perish is to destroy fully.
The fate of the wicked is consistent throughout scripture:
Mal 4:1 "For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up," Says the LORD of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch.
To me that's about a clear as statement as can be. The wicked are fully destroyed. Burned up. Stubble.
Mal 4:3 You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this," Says the LORD of hosts
And again. The wicked will be burned up. Totally consumed.
Mat 13:49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, Mat 13:50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
Again they're cast into the fire. Jesus, as God, certainly was the inspiration for Malachi's words. They WERE Jesus's words. He knows the fate of the wicked.
Job 36:5 "Behold, God is mighty, but despises no one; He is mighty in strength of understanding.
Job 36:6 He does not preserve the life of the wicked, But gives justice to the oppressed.
Job 36:7 He does not withdraw His eyes from the righteous; But they are on the throne with kings, For He has seated them forever, And they are exalted.
Those who believe God tortures people forever would have to disagree with Job words under the inspiration of God. They would have to say he DOES preserve the life of the wicked.
Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish; And the enemies of the LORD, Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish. Into smoke they shall vanish away.
Again into smoke the vanish.
I could go on and on. There is an overwhelming number of scriptures that affirm this.
The doctrine that the soul is immortal is not scriptural. It's traditional.
Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (gehenna)
The word translated "destroy" is the same word translated "perish" in John 3:16.
Men are fully destroyed in gehenna, hell. Satan and his demons are not.
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