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Tiffany Gee Lewis: Pint-sized Pharisees How to avoid raising self-righteous children
Mormon Times ^ | Sept. 28, 2010 | Tiffany Gee Lewis

Posted on 10/08/2010 3:51:38 PM PDT by Colofornian

We stepped outside on Sunday for our ritual family walk.

I immediately heard shouts from my kids.

"Mom, the neighbor kids are riding their bikes on Sunday!"

We have had this conversation a thousand times: Our family has rules that don't apply to other families. They go to different churches. All churches are good.

We are in that stage with our children where we try and do the delicate balance of teaching them correct principles without turning them into Pharisees for the rest of the neighborhood.

I'm sure you've all had that experience where you go out to a restaurant, your child stands up in the booth and yells across the room, "That man over there is smoking!" And you whisper between clenched teeth, "That's OK. They don't know better. We don't judge others. Sit down, please."

We're not big soda drinkers, so every time our kids see an aluminum can emblazoned with the Coca-Cola symbol, they go into hysterics. The same goes for coffee makers. My oldest son was crushed when he discovered that his beloved kindergarten teacher drank a cup of coffee every morning.

It's a tricky thing, this teaching business. I feel strongly that our children need to learn right from wrong. If we don't teach it to them, they'll learn to judge by the world's standards, which at the moment are pretty low.

So we teach them about honoring the Sabbath, keeping the Word of Wisdom, sharing their toys, being baptized and growing up with very specific commandments.

We couch it all by trying to explain that these are our beliefs and our family rules. They only apply to us. But children see things in black and white.

So they trudge into the house, as my son did on a recent afternoon, looking very dejected.

"Mom," Jackson said, "Jimmy doesn't want to join our church. He only reads the Bible, even though it's incorrect. And he said he believes in one hundred different gods. I don't know if we can ever be friends again."

I put my arm around his shoulder.

"Jimmy is Catholic," I told him. "Catholics are wonderful. He believes in one God. He was probably referring to Catholic saints. And your friendship with Jimmy is not over. You can be friends with all people." Jackson shrugged and looked relieved.

"OK, well I'm going out to play."

These are important conversations. It shows that my kids are actually trying to ponder and fit their own belief system in a world filled with various ideologies. I believe it's an important step in religious development.

And sometimes kids simply have to learn the hard way.

When I was 9 we visited family in Washington State. A group of us cousins gathered around my cousin Darcy for some sobering news.

"Grandma and Grandpa smoke!" she told us.

This was an absolute shock. Didn't they know about the Word of Wisdom, not to mention lung cancer?

We decided Grandma and Grandpa needed to be informed. We ran inside and drew "No Smoking" signs on paper plates.

Then we gathered outside in a circle around Grandma and Grandpa's trailer and chanted "PEOPLE THAT SMOKE— ARE PEOPLE THAT'LL CHOKE!"

We bellowed and marched, determined to educate our grandparents and bring them back to the fold.

My grandparents didn't say a word to us. They were so offended they simply packed their bags and drove back to Florida.

That day I learned a whopping lesson in tolerance and love. My grandparents were outstanding people. They were fully aware of the Word of Wisdom and lung cancer. It was not my place to judge them. More than a decade later, they were present at my marriage in the Portland Oregon Temple. They remained faithful to the gospel until the end of their lives.

How to explain these shades of gray to my children?

At the recent General Relief Society Broadcast, President Monson gave a remarkable talk on judging others.

It was a reminder to me that I teach my children right and wrong, but they learn to apply love and tolerance by watching my day-to-day actions. The application doesn't always happen in an instant. Sometimes it takes years for our children to really grasp these principles.

In the meantime, I will continue to gently remind my children that it is not their job to call the neighborhood kids to repentance. You can ride bikes on Sunday and still go to heaven. You can drink coffee and still be a fantastic kindergarten teacher.

You can smoke and learn to forgive an obstinate granddaughter brandishing a paper-plate sign, and love her enough to be present at her wedding.

The learning continues for all of us. You're never too old to stop judging.


TOPICS: Moral Issues; Other Christian; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: lds; legalism; mormon; pharisees
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From the article: "Mom," Jackson said, "Jimmy doesn't want to join our church. He only reads the Bible, even though it's incorrect."

Say what? This Mormon parent is teaching her Mormon children that the Bible is "incorrect" and if that's the "only" scripture he reads, he is somehow deficient & thereby suspect???

Wo-oh!

Obviously, pointing out lifestyle distinctions to children whose family embrace different religions than neighborhood kids isn't distinctive to Mormons. Indeed it happens across the board -- like the Sabbath day example the author gave.

Still...as the Headline (Pint-sized Pharisees — How to avoid raising self-righteous children) reveals...I think the author has zoned in on a prominent problem within the Mormon culture (note the words "Pharisees" and "self-righteous").

How so? Because of all religions, few if any are more legalistic than the Mormon faith.

From the article: Our family has rules that don't apply to other families...We couch it all by trying to explain that these are our beliefs and our family rules. They only apply to us. But children see things in black and white.

"Family" rules? Or Mormon-god rules? And if they are Mormon god-rules, and if this Mormon god is the literal father of all the "spirit" children who came down from Kolob as aliens to inhabits bodies on this earth (Mormon theology), then why does this author-mom twice say these rules "apply only to us"??? Wouldn't this also be the general will for all of his children?

This is what even a "tolerant" version of legalism does.

1 posted on 10/08/2010 3:51:42 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: All
From the article: We are in that stage with our children where we try and do the delicate balance of teaching them correct principles without turning them into Pharisees for the rest of the neighborhood.

What are some of the indicators that Mormonism is more legalistic than other religions?

If you look at Lds.org like I did -- every single entry they have for carrying out their various add-on "Laws" -- guess what two add-on "laws" get the most mentions by Lds, Inc?

It's near a tie:
(1) The Law of Tithing
(2) The Law of Chastity

That's interesting, too...'cause you would think that based upon what Joseph Smith said, the Law of Baptizing dead people would be #1. But it's not stressed more than the above (& doesn't rank above many other Mormon "laws").

Joseph Smith: “The GREATEST RESPONSIBILITY IN THIS WORLD that God has placed upon us is to seek after our dead.” (Joseph Smith, Jr., Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 356)

Mormons are you obeying this? Are you doing three-year missions to the dead to outdo your two- year missions to the living?

If I gambled, I could probably wage a million $ that not a single Mormon could name EVERY law mentioned by Lds general authorities on Lds.org. [What a crying shame, 'cause even Joseph Smith said: “We cannot keep all the commandments without first knowing them, and we cannot expect to know all, or more than we now know unless we comply with or keep those we have already received.”(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 256.)

And Mormons are shooting for the highest degree by way of perfect obedience??????

For the Christian, do we follow a "law" of tithing?

No. Giving is an inside-out thing, done from the heart, encouraged by God as part of being godly. Mormons? They make it an outside-in, imposed upon from without -- or you're out (of the temple, that is). No chance for special "callings" in the church; don't get to see your son or daughter married in the temple. No "forever family." No living with Heavenly Father forever. You could pay 9.99% of your income, and still be disqualified from all the above...because you broke their man-made "law."

BTW...the Mormon "law of chastity" does the same thing as the Mormon "law of tithing": It attempts to impose a man-made law from the outside-in. Now am I saying singles should not be chaste and marrieds should not remain faithful to their spouse? Not at all; of course we exercise self-control. But Jesus said no matter whether you engage in physical adultery, God looks at the heart...and if you lust, you have already broken any boundary of heart purity/chasteness.

Mormons (and many Christian church members, too) consistently want to measure things by external appearances. God already knows our hearts perfectly. We can't change His omniscience and omnipresence. That's why Jesus complimented the Pharisees on their outward righteousness and condemned them on their inward tombstone-like lives.

Too many Mormons and even members of Christian churches compare out their outward religious lives to the rest of the world, and think they are way out front of the race to heaven.

But God doesn't judge us that way.
It's pass or fail. (James says if we stumble at only one part of the Law, we have broken ALL of it -- James 2:10).
It's inside and outside.
It's internal and external.

All: Stay away from such religious legalism as mentioned above; and, if you're already entrapped in it, run away. Jesus condemned it for a very good reason!

2 posted on 10/08/2010 3:54:30 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: All
What other legalistic indicators exist about Mormonism? Well, here are the "A, B, C's of Mormon legalism":

A According to Mormon writings, what makes you "worthy?" Your perfection (3 Nephi 12:48; see also Mt. 5:48)

[Whereas, in contrast, a good definition of a "Christian" is someone already perfect in the Father's eyes thru Jesus sacrificial death (Heb. 10:14) -- where His perfect righteousness is substituted for our imperfect righteousness. (1 Cor. 1:30). Heb. 10:14 ...because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.]

B Just to be sure, I looked up "worthiness" (a key Lds concept emphasized in Mormon teachings to its adherents) in the 1977 "Topical Guide to the Scriptures of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" published by church-owned Deseret Publishers.

I found verses like Doctrine & Covenants 59:4: "And they shall also be crowned with blessings from above, yea, and with commandments not a few, and with revelations in their time--they that are faithful and diligent before me."

"Commandments not a few"? -- sounds like a long checklist of legalistic religiosity to me.

C I then looked at the 1979 "Topical Guide" in the Lds version of its KJV -- and turned to the "worthiness" entry there: It tells me right up top its related to the concept of "qualifying for" & then proceeds to verses like D&C 31:5: "Therefore, thrust in your sickle with all your soul, and your sins are forgiven you, and you shall be laden with sheaves upon your back, for the laborer is worthy of his hire. Wherefore, your family shall live."

Ah. There it is: The Mormon "strategy." Don't "trust" for your salvation, "thrust in your sickle" as a laborer laborin' after salvation.

So it sounds like the Mormon god wants plenty of soul labor -- paid labor -- spiritual hirelings -- earned labor for salvation.
No free gifts here.
No grace here (at least not until you've done ALL you can do...emotionally, physically, relationally, spiritually).
Otherwise, just follow the rules, ma'am.

D Indeed, the LDS are the "rules oriented" ones: The purity and perfection we seek is unattainable without this subjection of unworthy, ungodlike urges and the corresponding encouragement of their opposites. We certainly cannot expect the rules to be easier for us than for the Son of God... (Lds "prophet" Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 28)

E Just look @ all the "rule extensions" Lds have imposed upon their followers in order to make it to the highest degree of afterlife:
(1) You HAVE to be obedient to all the commandments & ordinances of the Mormon god
(2) You HAVE to tithe -- what Lds reference as the "Law of consecration"
(3) You HAVE to obey the "Word of Wisdom" -- not drink coffee, etc.
(4) You HAVE to get married -- sorry, no never-married single people allowed
(5) You HAVE to have as many children as possible
(6) You HAVE to perform temple work for the dead
(7) You HAVE to perform endowments essential for this highest degree of salvation
(8) You HAVE to be a member of the right church (Lds)
(9) You HAVE to receive & perform the rites and ordinances established by that church
(10) You HAVE to have Joseph Smith's consent to enter into your highest afterlife

That is 19th-20th-21st century legalism!

3 posted on 10/08/2010 3:57:29 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: All
From the article: We have had this conversation a thousand times: Our family has rules that don't apply to other families. They go to different churches. All churches are good.

ALL churches, carte blanche, are "good"??? Anton Levey's "church of Satan" -- that one, too?

The underlying assumption we all make is that most people of any religious stripe (well, excepting some re: Islam) is that they are "good."

Jesus did not share this presumption: "'Why do you call me good?' Jesus answered. 'No one is good--except God alone.'" (Mark 10:18). [Jesus wasn't saying He wasn't good; but He was addressing the presumption behind the comment]

Jesus levels the playing field before the cross by undercutting any spiritual pride that presumes we don't Him as our great physician ("It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick...For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."--Mt 9:12) Jesus is for the person who understands the cancerous diagnosis of sin.

We're all spiritually unhealthy and depraved [depraved doesn't mean being as bad as we can be; it's just no part of our being is untouched by sin]. Yet that doesn't pre-empt people from accomplishing good works.

Some folks do good works and give the credit for those works to God the Holy Spirit working through them; some folks do outwardly good works and assume the credit for themselves, stealing God's glory. Theft of God's glory thereby defeats any act otherwise qualifying itself as "good."

4 posted on 10/08/2010 3:59:11 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

My wife asked our Mormon friend what they do if there are discrepencies between the Book of Mormon and the Bible. After much to-do, the answer was adherence to the Book of Mormon.

On the other hand, how many Christians actually adhere to the Bible when there are differences between what God says and what we actually want to do?


5 posted on 10/08/2010 4:00:42 PM PDT by 1forall (America - my home, my land, my country.)
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To: Colofornian

Mormon kids are not allowed to ride bikes on Sundays? Would that be playing rather than working? Why is that bad?


6 posted on 10/08/2010 4:03:25 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: All
From the article: We have had this conversation a thousand times: Our family has rules that don't apply to other families. They go to different churches. All churches are good.

My other response upon seeing the Mormon Times outright label other churches as being "good" is..."Gee...when have Mormon mom-journalists like this one pulled rank on all the Lds "prophets" and "apostles" and other general authorities and contradict them in such an outright manner? What do I mean? (Well pay attention below to what they've said about the Christian church through the years!)

Who are the Christians, and what is Christianity, per Mormonism? An 'Interview' Across the Generations with the mouthpieces of the Mormon god, the Lds 'prophets' and 'apostles':

Q. Who is the Christian Jesus?

A. Lds "apostle" Bruce McConkie: ...virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269).

Q: Who is the Christian God?

A. Lds "prophet" Brigham Young: The "Christian God is the Mormon's Devil..." (Journal of Discourses, Volume 5, page 331). “…the God whom the ‘Christians’ worship is a being of their own creation…” (Apostle Charles W. Penrose, Journal of Discourses 23:243).

Q. Who inspires Christians?

A. Joseph Smith: "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).

Q. Where did Christianity in its form between 100 & 200 AD through the 19th century originate?

A. Lds "prophet" John Taylor, who was with Joseph Smith when Smith died: Christianity was "hatched in hell" (Journal of Discourses, Volume 6, page 176) and "a perfect pack of nonsense...the Devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century..." (Journal of Discourses, Volume 6, page 167).

Q. Who is classified as part of the "church of the devil" according to the Book of Mormon?

A Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10: “Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the Church of the Lamb of God [i.e.. the Mormon Church] and the other is the church of the devil [for example: the Christian Church]; wherefore whosoever belongeth not to the church of the lamb of God belongeth to that great church; which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.”

A. BYU professor Kent B. Jackson: "Since whoever does not belong to 'the church of the Lamb of God' belongs to 'the church of the devil,' as Nephi announced then all systems of worship outside of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would be classified as 'the church of the devil' by Nephi's definition (Kent B. Jackson, "Watch and Remember" etc. from publication By Study and Also by Faith: Essays in Honor of Hugh W. Nibley on the Occasion of His Eightieth Birthday, 3/27/90, vol. 1, p. 87, citing 1 Nephi 14:9-10 from the Book of Mormon)

Q. What is the church of the devil in our day?

A. Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie: "What is the church of the devil in our day, and where is the seat of her power?.... It is all of the systems, both Christian and non-Christian, that perverted the pure and perfect gospel....It is communism; it is Islam; it is Buddhism; it is modern Christianity in all its parts. It is Germany under Hitler, Russia under Stalin, and Italy under Mussolini." (The Millennial Messiah, pp. 54-55.)

Q: Do LDS considers themselves one legitimate church among many?

A. Lds "prophet" Joseph Smith: "This [the LDS] Church...is the ONLY only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth" (Doctrine and Covenants 1:30). Lds "prophet" Ezra Taft Benson, who served in the Eisenhower administration: "This is not just another Church. This is not just one of a family of Christian churches. This is the Church and kingdom of God, the ONLY true Church upon the face of the earth..." (Teachings of LDS prophet Ezra Taft Benson, p.164-165). The Lds church "is the ONLY true church upon the face of the earth..." (D&C 1:30)

Q. What then, are the rest of the churches? Apostates?

A. Lds general authority B.H. Roberts: "Nothing less than a complete apostasy from the Christian religion would warrant the establishment of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Introduction to the History of the Church 1:XL). Lds "apostle" Bruce McConkie: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "“The Christian world, I discovered, was like the captain and crew of a vessel on the ocean without a compass, and tossed to and fro whithersoever the wind listed to blow them. When the light came to me, I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness.” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 5:73).

Q. While we all know not every member of a Christian church is a true Christian, what difference is there between Christians in Christian churches and Mormons who reference themselves as 'Christians?'

A. Brigham Young: "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).

Q. Go ahead and let it out. How do you really feel about Christians?

A. Lds "apostle" Orson Pratt: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).

Q. Can we at least commend some of the teachings of the Christian church as "truth" and "light" to the world?

A. Lds "prophet" Brigham Young: "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199) "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171);

Q. "Do you believe the Bible?"

A. Lds "prophet" Joseph Smith: "'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'.(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).

Q. 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons?"

A. Lds "prophet" Joseph Smith: 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).

Q. When the so-called Great Apostasy hit the early Christian church, would you say the Christian church was still better off then -- or 17 centuries later?

A. Lds "apostle" Orson Pratt: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses, vol.18, p.44)

Q. Lds "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith...would you like to add anything to this question?

A. Lds "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith (10th LDS President) -- "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation that was not, in the year 1820, so obscured by false tradition and ceremonies, borrowed from paganism, as to make it unrecognizable; or else it was entirely denied ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that ALL the `Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation 3:282).

Q. What else did you claim in that vision, Joseph?

A. Lds "prophet" Joseph Smith: " for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith-History v. 12).

Q. Is that all?

A. Lds "prophet" Joseph Smith: I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong) and which I should join. 19 I was answered that I must join NONE of them,
or they were ALL wrong;
and the Personage who addressed me said that ALL their creeds were an abomination in his sight;
that those professors were ALL corrupt;
that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof." (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith History -- vv. 18-19)

7 posted on 10/08/2010 4:06:33 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

As a little Protestant I blew a gasket in public because the mall Santa had an unlit pipe in his mouth for the photos.

My children have to follow rules that other kids in the neighborhood don’t have to follow. Rules about how they address grownups and their friends, how they are expected to behave in public and in private. My wife and I spend a lot of time drilling “these are our rules and you have to follow them, don’t worry about everyone else they have their own rules” into their heads. The corollary is “our rules don’t make you a better person so climb down off that horse missy”

Of course we’re Catholics so there ya go.


8 posted on 10/08/2010 4:07:53 PM PDT by Legatus (Keep calm and carry on)
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To: vladimir998

Why do your kids smell like borscht?


9 posted on 10/08/2010 4:08:01 PM PDT by mac_truck ( Aide toi et dieu t aidera)
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To: vladimir998; Colofornian

Somebody will be coming soon to call us “Pharisees”!


10 posted on 10/08/2010 4:08:01 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (ObaMugabe is turning this country into another Zimbabwe as fast as he can with MEDIA'S help.)
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To: Colofornian
"Mom," Jackson said, "Jimmy doesn't want to join our church. He only reads the Bible, even though it's incorrect. And he said he believes in one hundred different gods. I don't know if we can ever be friends again."

Related threads:
How to make friends with non-Mormons [aka "How to make friends with a gentile"]
'Jack Mormon' once meant something else
A majority of Americans have no idea what Mormons believe
Mormons: We're misunderstood
What Child Is This? The LDS Christmas Story

11 posted on 10/08/2010 4:09:46 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("Posting news feeds, making eyes bleed, he's hated on seven continents")
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To: 1forall

“Christians actually adhere to the Bible when there are differences between what God says and what we actually want to do?”

The answer is either none of us or all of us. :)


12 posted on 10/08/2010 4:11:43 PM PDT by BenKenobi ("Henceforth I will call nothing else fair unless it be her gift to me")
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To: vladimir998

Funny, I grew up in a working-class Irish Catholic community. Almost everything the Mormons dislike we practised like crazy: smoking, drinking, overeating, soda, everything except maybe weird sex. The Irish don’t like weird sex. Actually, they don’t like sex at all if it really comes down to it - at least Irish-American Catholics in Queens, New York, not Cork, the gay capital of the world.

But we had so much fun with the smoking and drinking.


13 posted on 10/08/2010 4:12:49 PM PDT by miss marmelstein
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To: Alex Murphy

Thanks for the links, Alex.


14 posted on 10/08/2010 4:13:40 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (ObaMugabe is turning this country into another Zimbabwe as fast as he can with MEDIA'S help.)
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To: Colofornian

Jeez Louise, I thought it was quite a reasonable article about teaching kids to value their faith while respecting others and not being obnoxious little know-it-alls. You seem to find it very alarming, however. Well, to each their own.


15 posted on 10/08/2010 4:19:09 PM PDT by FelixFelicis
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To: Colofornian

Okay, my impression is that spankings are a universal language.


16 posted on 10/08/2010 4:23:09 PM PDT by RichInOC (No! BAD Rich! (What'd I say?)...Richard Frank DeCamp, 11/13/34-9/15/10, R.I.P.)
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To: mac_truck

They don’t. They smell more like pierogies.


17 posted on 10/08/2010 4:28:07 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: miss marmelstein

If they didn’t like sex, there wouldn’t be any Irish Catholics.


18 posted on 10/08/2010 4:29:31 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: FelixFelicis
about teaching kids to value their faith while respecting others and not being obnoxious little know-it-alls

That's what I figured it was about. "Yes, it's wrong for a lady to be living with one man here while she's married to a different guy in Greenboror ... but we don't have to mention it."

19 posted on 10/08/2010 4:31:01 PM PDT by Tax-chick (If the train leaves Hartford on May Day, how many turkeys will have snowballs in the Bahamas?)
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To: vladimir998

“If they didn’t like sex, there wouldn’t be any Irish Catholics.”

given the substantial number of Irish Catholics running around, I’d say that constitutes evidence to the contrary of what the prior poster said.


20 posted on 10/08/2010 4:37:17 PM PDT by Mr Inviso (ACORN=Arrogant Condescending Obama Ruining Nation)
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To: Colofornian

I believe I “hear” a proud mama trying to disguise her pride in false concern for her children’s “righteousness.”
Uhmmm that’s how religious people have to brag


21 posted on 10/08/2010 5:04:56 PM PDT by ladyL
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To: Colofornian

Drinking coffee...

Riding a bycycle on Sunday...

Oh woe is us...

The world is going to Hell fast and in a hand basket...

What to do ??? What to do ???


22 posted on 10/08/2010 5:13:45 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: vladimir998
If they didn’t like sex, there wouldn’t be any Irish Catholics.

She didn't say they didn't do it - only that they didn't like it. Maybe this is the sound of an Irish orgasm: "Ooooh - thank God that's over with!"
23 posted on 10/08/2010 5:20:28 PM PDT by fr_freak
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To: Colofornian
Ignorance. Pharisees are not the equivalent to "self-righteous." The popular language is a myth. Paul was a Pharisee (present tense) until the day he died.

And Sunday is the "Sabbath"? Where in Scripture does it say that. The weekly Sabbath has always been on the seventh day. Please, put down the book of mormon and read the Bible some.
24 posted on 10/08/2010 5:24:47 PM PDT by Tzfat
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To: Legatus; miss marmelstein; Alex Murphy
Of course we’re Catholics so there ya go. [Legatus]
Funny, I grew up in a working-class Irish Catholic community. [Miss Marmelstein]

Well, what do you think of this exchange this Mormon journalist mom had with her son about Catholics?

From the article: "Mom," Jackson said, "Jimmy doesn't want to join our church. He only reads the Bible, even though it's incorrect. And he said he believes in one hundred different gods. I don't know if we can ever be friends again." I put my arm around his shoulder. "Jimmy is Catholic," I told him. "Catholics are wonderful. He believes in one God. He was probably referring to Catholic saints. And your friendship with Jimmy is not over. You can be friends with all people." Jackson shrugged and looked relieved.

What do you think of Jimmy's ironic comment about Catholics having "one hundred different gods" [what his mom clarified to be "saints"] when Mormons themselves have...
...the Mormon father-god (1)
...his wife, the mom-god (2)
...his first son, the savior-who became a god (3)
...the Holy Ghost, who's a god despite not having a body (4)
...the Mormon grand-god -- the one who organized the father-god (5)
...the "council of gods" or what Joseph Smith also referenced as the "heads of the gods" (6 through ?)
...and then all of the Mormons who supposedly became gods (millions more???)

Now there's a Mormon kid who's yet to have his seminary lessons...lessons, BTW, that even most Mormon adults haven't bothered to digest.

So, for any of you Mormons who've missed those lessons, here ya go:

“The doctrine of a plurality of Gods is prominent in the Bible. The heads of the Gods appointed our God for us…you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves…the same as all Gods have done before you…” Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 370-372, 346

"Brethren, 225,000 of you are here tonight. I suppose that 225,000 of you may become gods" Lds "prophet" Spencer Kimball (from a speech published in The Ensign, November 1975, 1980).

25 posted on 10/08/2010 6:15:27 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Tzfat
The weekly Sabbath has always been on the seventh day.

Well, even this needs delineation with the way we mark a day in modern times.

The Jewish "Sabbath" day actually began on our Fridays...sundown...and went til sundown on Saturdays.

So even those who are legalistic about what day the Sabbath appears on -- if they're wanting to be consistent with the OT Jewish Sabbath -- should ensure they are celebrating/recognizing it from sundown to sundown...which would "free up" Saturday nights and consecrate Friday nights.

26 posted on 10/08/2010 6:19:34 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian
Well, what do you think of this exchange this Mormon journalist mom had with her son about Catholics?

I've tried to pin Mormon's down on this one and I have yet to get one to actually admit to it. I think their theology demands it but from our point of view, not necessarily theirs. I will happily trumpet anything I think Catholics actually believe, I can't understand why Mormons wouldn't be the same about what they believe.

For instance, if someone asks me if I pray to Mary I'll answer "absolutely" and not bother with distinctions some Catholics make about praying "through" her or what have you. I'm not here to make my beliefs more palatable to non-Catholics. I tell her I think she's wonderful and I ask her for help, just like I do with my own mother... and my wife for that matter (good grief that was almost suicide). If Mormons believe what we all suspect they believe why won't they just come out and say it so we can move on from there?

I'm beginning to suspect that this plurality of gods, and their god-the-father being an elevated man, etc, etc. stuff might be a whole lot of smoke screen along the lines of "Catholics believe in salvation by works". I've spent so much time having people misrepresent what I believe that I'm beginning to have a bit of sympathy for Mormons.

On the other hand they might just be crazy, I don't know.

27 posted on 10/08/2010 6:51:55 PM PDT by Legatus (Keep calm and carry on)
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To: FelixFelicis

The article left me with the same impression - that kids need to learn to tolerate the beliefs of others. OTOH the intolerance shown by some FReepers towards LDS reminds me of antisemitism. “Live and let live.”


28 posted on 10/08/2010 6:54:27 PM PDT by Milhous (Confusion to our enemies.)
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To: Colofornian

I like to “double dip” by honoring both Sabbath and Sunday. Some weekends I attend multiple services at different houses of worship. My Holy Spirit gets “topped off”, which seems to scare the devil out of me. LOL.


29 posted on 10/08/2010 7:08:05 PM PDT by Milhous (Confusion to our enemies.)
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To: Milhous

>>OTOH the intolerance shown by some FReepers towards LDS reminds me of antisemitism.<<

I agree, but to say so usually elicits a litany of Bizarre Things Mormons Believe - which I guess is supposed to shock me and instill a sense of outrage that Mormons dare to exist. The crazy part is that these are overwhelmingly peaceful, law-abiding people who make no trouble for anybody. With all the heinous, destructive people in the world, you choose to take on MORMONS? There really is something wrong with this picture.


30 posted on 10/08/2010 7:30:17 PM PDT by FelixFelicis
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To: miss marmelstein
The Irish don’t like weird sex. Actually, they don’t like sex at all if it really comes down to it -

What is Irish foreplay?

Brace yourself, Bridget!

31 posted on 10/08/2010 10:10:21 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: FelixFelicis

Not dangerous if you don’t value your soul.


32 posted on 10/08/2010 11:06:11 PM PDT by dragonblustar ("... and if you disagree with me, then you sir, are worse than Hitler!" - Greg Gutfeld)
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To: FelixFelicis

Not dangerous if you don’t value your soul.


33 posted on 10/08/2010 11:06:14 PM PDT by dragonblustar ("... and if you disagree with me, then you sir, are worse than Hitler!" - Greg Gutfeld)
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To: FelixFelicis
I agree, but to say so usually elicits a litany of Bizarre Things Mormons Believe - which I guess is supposed to shock me and instill a sense of outrage that Mormons dare to exist.

I think we learn something about people from who their enemies are. The vocal opponents of Mormonism have done more to convince me that my own suspicions about Mormons are probably unfounded than anything an actual Mormon ever said.

That being said I still think they mistranslated "Jesus" into "Cheeses" somewhere along the line, whereas their enemies seem to have translated "love" into "spastic insanity with a side of malice"... which one would think would be a difficult mistake to accomplish.

34 posted on 10/08/2010 11:11:29 PM PDT by Legatus (Keep calm and carry on)
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To: FelixFelicis; Legatus
The crazy part is that these are overwhelmingly peaceful, law-abiding people who make no trouble for anybody. With all the heinous, destructive people in the world, you choose to take on MORMONS? There really is something wrong with this picture.

Of course, you elaborate a worldview which apparently assumes the only kind of destruction is physical or tied to physical death.

A Mormon FReeper once said: Only a fool fights in a burning house.

(to which I responded): only a fool thinks the "brush fire" here on earth is the three-alarm, city-wide meltdown that hell represents.

You see, Felix, we Christians take our cultural cue from a certain "Lord" named Jesus Christ, right?

And Jesus indicated we have more to fear than simply "heinous, destructive" people on earth:

"I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him." (Luke 12:4-5)

So does Jesus say, "fear the heinous destructive" people? (No)
Instead, does He say to exercise fear of the One who has authority to cast somebody into hell? (Yes)
So, indeed, our "fear" is on behalf of those who are placing their eternal spiritual lives at risk.

As the apostle Paul was leaving the church of Ephesus, he warned them with this high-priority alert:

"I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears." (Acts 20:29-31)

Paul's cultural priority? (Defend against the false disciples who will proselytize the flock and draw away men unto themselves!)

Tell me something, Felix: If you did something tearfully night and day for three years, do you think it's rather important?

I mean, here was the man who contributed a good chunk to the New Testament and he seemed to be rather focused -- on a daily intensity level -- to the reality that spiritual destruction actually exists! (Wow! What a novel concept for "overtolerant" Americans!)

So. I guess, I'll take Paul's and Jesus' already-revealed priorities to others' patchwork guesswork.

35 posted on 10/08/2010 11:34:16 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: boatbums

I never heard that one! Funny! As always, I seem to have run into a lot of humorless folks at FR who took my original post SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO seriously. Thanks for lightening it up.


36 posted on 10/09/2010 12:51:04 AM PDT by miss marmelstein
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To: fr_freak

Some folks took my original post WAY too seriously - although I’m loving the Irish sex jokes posted, including yours. If they read my post correctly, they’d know I was talking about the working-class Irish-American Catholics of NYC of my childhood, not the good folks of the Emerald Isle...


37 posted on 10/09/2010 1:00:46 AM PDT by miss marmelstein
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To: Colofornian
We have had this conversation a thousand times: Our family has rules that don't apply to other families. They go to different churches. All churches are good.

Does their BISHOP know of this ATTITUDE?

38 posted on 10/09/2010 4:28:27 AM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Colofornian
I feel strongly that our children need to learn right from wrong.

I feel strongly that our children need to learn to be CONTROLLED by the Church, and NOT learn of the FREEDOM that there is in Christ.

39 posted on 10/09/2010 4:30:22 AM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Colofornian
If we don't teach it to them, they'll learn to judge by the world's standards, which at the moment are pretty low.

They've GOT to be carefully taught!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lNqqvAv2SA

40 posted on 10/09/2010 4:37:44 AM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Colofornian
If we don't teach it to them, they'll learn to judge by the world's standards, which at the moment are pretty low.

They've GOT to be carefully taught!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lNqqvAv2SA

41 posted on 10/09/2010 4:38:11 AM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Colofornian
 
This Mormon parent is teaching her Mormon children that the Bible is "incorrect" and if that's the "only" scripture he reads, he is somehow deficient & thereby suspect???
 
 
The 'little boy' is learning quite well!
 
From a VAGUE statement, found in the Mormon CREED; he gets the LDS Church teaching the same as EVE got the teaching from Satan:
 
Did GOD 'really' say...?         Genesis 3:1
 


 
 
The Articles of Faith
of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
 
 

  1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
  2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
  3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
  4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
  5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
  6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
  7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
  8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
  9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
  10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
  11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
  12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
  13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith


42 posted on 10/09/2010 4:43:49 AM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Colofornian
At the recent General Relief Society Broadcast, President Monson gave a remarkable talk on judging others.
 
But why waste time LISTENING to it; if it is NOT as authoritative as 'scripture'?
 
(Oh; I SEE why!)
 



In conclusion let us summarize this grand key, these “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”, for our salvation depends on them.


1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
3. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.
5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
6. The prophet does not have to say “Thus Saith the Lord,” to give us scripture.
7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
8. The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.
9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.
10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.
11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.
14. The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.

I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true. If we want to know how well we stand with the Lord then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain—how close do our lives harmonize with the Lord’s anointed—the living Prophet—President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency.

Ezra Taft Benson

(Address given Tuesday, February 26, 1980 at Brigham Young University)


43 posted on 10/09/2010 4:47:21 AM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Colofornian
Maam; go back to baking muffins and fixing green Jello©!

Your whole RELIGION is FOUNDED on JUDGING OTHERS!

44 posted on 10/09/2010 4:48:35 AM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: 1forall
On the other hand, how many Christians actually adhere to the Bible when there are differences between what God says and what we actually want to do?

Who cares, as the thread is about SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Salt Lake City MORMONs do NOT follow what their GOD told them to do in D&C 132.

If anyone IS found in their midst that ACTUALLY follows D&C 132:58-66, they are EXCOMMUNICATED from the 'church'!


(I love the smell of hypocrisy in the morning!)

45 posted on 10/09/2010 4:53:03 AM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: vladimir998

Ah...pierogies....smothered in butter and onions....I think I feel like making some pierogies today.

Thanks, Vlad!


46 posted on 10/09/2010 4:54:53 AM PDT by VermiciousKnid (Sic narro nos totus!)
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To: greyfoxx39
Somebody will be coming soon to call us “Pharisees”!

Why?

Hateful bigots is accurate enough!

--MormonDude(Have YOU heard the Good News® about the Restored Gospel©?)

47 posted on 10/09/2010 4:55:16 AM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Tzfat
Please, put down the book of mormon and read the Bible some.

Perhaps that wasn't translated correctly in tghe Bible.

One can NEVER be TOO careful; especially in Religious Matters!

48 posted on 10/09/2010 4:57:49 AM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Milhous
The article left me with the same impression - that kids need to learn to tolerate the beliefs of others.

Bull!

If they REALLY believed and taught this to their kids; the source of obedient 'missionaries' would dry up and there would NOT be an ARMY; 52,000 strong, that would 'volunteer' to give up so many hours, going door to door, telling folks that MORMONs do NOT 'tolerate' the beliefs of others!

49 posted on 10/09/2010 5:02:23 AM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: FelixFelicis
With all the heinous, destructive people in the world, you choose to take on MORMONS?

Uh... because it is a heresy?

50 posted on 10/09/2010 5:03:33 AM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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