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Hindu Kundalini infestation of Pentecostalism and their war on the Queen of Heaven?
Various | Various

Posted on 10/11/2010 2:57:22 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM

The Pentecostal movement is severely divided on the so-called "Toronto Blessing." See the following YouTube videos:

SHOCKING DOCUMENTARY 1- False spirits invade the church - KUNDALINI WARNING - Andrew Strom -Part 1

SHOCKING DOCUMENTARY 2- False spirits invade the church - KUNDALINI WARNING - Andrew Strom -Part 2

Pastor David Wilkerson On Weird Manifestations

See also these files:

THE STRIKING SIMILARITIES BETWEEN THE "TORONTO BLESSING" AND THE SERPENT POWER OF KUNDALINI

Comparison Between the Kundalini Practice and the so-called Toronto Blessing

Not long after the wholesale Kundalini infestation of the Pentecostal movement, some leaders of the Pentecostal movement began a wholesale assault on the "Queen of Heaven":

When the River Burst Against It

By Mark Connell

In a northern city in Argentina, four Catholic men fell to the ground in a most unusual way. Here is an account of the event by Protestant author C. Peter Wagner:

"In the city of Santiago del Estero, a local priest decided to oppose the [Evangelistic] crusade by invading the area with a religious procession. When they arrived, the four strong men carrying the statue of the priest's favorite virgin all fell to the ground under the power of the Spirit and the statue shattered into a thousand pieces. Two of the men spent the night in the hospital and the other two in [Evangelist Carlos] Annacondia's deliverance tent! This is warfare prayer in action."

Wagner, church growth expert and leading teacher of "spiritual warfare prayer," is gleefully describing here the fruit of specific prayer initiated by Protestants in what he unashamedly calls a "laboratory for relating strategic-level spiritual warfare prayer to evangelism." Strategic-level warfare prayer, according to Wagner, is prayer that seeks to defeat the "territorial spirits" ruling an area. (Another name for these demons would be 'strongmen'; hence the description of the four statue bearers as "strong men" has additional significance here. These men were part of a demonic procession. This point will become clearer as the facts are presented.) The laboratory Wagner prefers to test out this prayer technique in is the country of Argentina, and he is obviously delighted with the outcome. 'Revival' has hit Argentina says Wagner, and at last the Gospel is being preached to the people there. The gospel is in, idolatrous processions are out.

Wagner relates that before the Falkland war of 1982, "Argentines had been widely known as being indifferent or resistant to the gospel." Another writer relates how, because of the war," It was the sorrow and suffering of our nation that prepared hearts for the gospel." After the war the people sensed that "The church had failed them, Peronism had failed them. They were ready to try something different." And so they did.

Along with increased levels of Spiritism, Mormonism and other cults, Wagner says great evangelical growth occurred in Argentina. He suggests this evangelical growth was the result of both warfare prayer and the ministry of Carlos Annocondia, a wealthy businessman turned evangelist. It was outside one of Annocondia's revival services that the Spirit overcame the men in the procession and the statue was smashed.

While this single episode may be amusing to a Protestant with an aversion to Marian piety, it should cause Catholics to take notice. Evidently the lesson Wagner would have us learn here is that, at least in Argentina, the Holy Spirit does not approve of Marian processions. In fact, He disapproves so strongly that He sent two of the men in this procession to the hospital. Although Argentina was over 90% Catholic in 1974, C. Peter Wagner doesn't flinch when he writes that there was "little effective evangelization" in the Argentinean city of Adrogue before 1974.

There are currently people worldwide using Wagner's techniques to pray directly against some of the most ancient pietistic practices of both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. As hard as this may be to believe in this age of ecumenism, there is a war being waged in South America and the tools of this battle are spreading worldwide.

Prayer campaigns with names such as "Operation Queen's Domain" have been launched worldwide. C. Peter Wagner has written that:

"we consider the Queen of Heaven as a chief principality commissioned by Satan to keep unbelievers in spiritual darkness, and we have identified ancient Ephesus as one of her principal power centres where she formerly manifested in the person of Diana. We called it the "palace" because the temple of Diana (Artemis) in Ephesus syncretised, among other things, ancient Cybele worship, the Moon Goddess (Sin), and allegiance to Mammon(the temple was the first historical prototype of what we know today as the World Bank). Not surprisingly, Ephesus was also the site chosen by the church of that day for the Council of Ephesus in 431 AD which officially declared that Mary is the "mother of God." [Emphasis added]

Wagner has recently been installed as the "Presiding Apostle" and will help guide a worldwide convocation of restored Apostles who seek to re-establish God's Government on this earth. God's Government (Five fold ministry including true Apostles and Prophets) is not properly in place at this time, claims Wagner, hindering true revival.

Elsewhere, Protestant pastors in San Nicholas, Argentina, under the leadership of Prophetic Intercessor Cindy Jacobs, have declared war on the Queen of Heaven. Mrs. Jacobs did this upon receiving direct instructions from God.

Around the world, spiritual 'maps' are being drawn up detailing the 'spiritual strongholds' in cities. 'Prayer-walkers' are going through many cities, perhaps circling your Churches, Cathedrals and Marian sites, 'pulling down' the demonic influences of a what they see as a Gospel-less and corrupt Catholicism.

Like a river, this movement has flowed from South America and threatens to weaken any house whose foundation is not sure. In the Northern Hemisphere, the 'fruit' of this offensive bears names like the Toronto Blessing, the Brownsville Revival or, simply, The River.

Men and women who deny the Real Presence in the Eucharist and have no intention of submitting to St. Peter's successor lead these ongoing Christian services which claim supernatural visitations from God complete with manifestations such as: barking like dogs, roaring like lions, howling, uncontrollable laughter, orgasms, women laying on the floor with legs spread giving birth to 'ministries', shaking, being glued to the floor, deep bowing, literally vomitting up demons, gold dust falling from the ceiling, angel feathers falling from the sky, gold teeth and fillings, prophetic utterances, visitations by angelic beings, mist, fog, spiritual drunkenenss. The list could go on infinitely, because there simply is no limit on what will be accepted at these meetings. Everything is permissible in the River except the use of reason.

Almost beyond belief, Catholic Charismatic leaders are willing to share the stage with these same River leaders and are willing to promote an event with these people as the 'most significant assembly of Christians' in this Jubilee year. Leaders such as Father Michael Scanlan, Ralph Martin, Bishop Sam Jacobs, Father Tom Forrest and many others will encourage Catholics to sit under the ministry of men and women who regularly pray against the truths which Saints have died to protect. Charity demands that one assume these Charismatic leaders do not understand what C. Peter Wagner, Cindy Jacobs and the other River leaders believe and teach. Perhaps, then, a look might be beneficial for all?

Part Two of "A River Burst Against It" coming soon.

©Copyright Mark Connell 2000

Here's more on C. Peter Wagner's Operation Queen's Domain:

Operation Queen's Domain

WORLDWIDE PRAYER MOVEMENT FOCUSES INTERCESSION ON 40/70 WINDOW

Editorial note: the worldwide prayer movement will focus it's prayer strategy for the next five years on the 40/70 Window, the area between 40 and 70 degrees north of the Equator, from the western tip of Ireland to the eastern tip of Siberia. In this contribution Peter Wagner explains the background of this new prayer initiative named "Operation Queens Domain".

WORLDWIDE PRAYER MOVEMENT FOCUSES INTERCESSION ON 40/70 WINDOW

Our October 1 "Celebration Ephesus" was a magnificent event from every conceivable perspective. The Holy Spirit visited us with an anointing of compassion and generosity and we were able to leave over $75,000 US for the Turkish Protestant Earthquake Relief Committee. Undoubtedly you have seen many detailed reports of the happening.

One of the most frequent questions I was asked during the event was, "What are you going to do after this?" I honestly had no answer. Celebration Ephesus was a one-of-a-kind occasion. Once the euphoria wore off however, God's revelation for the next step began to come. I am now calling prayer leaders and intercessors worldwide to move from Operation Queen's Palace to Operation Queen's Domain over the next 5 years, 2000-2004.

What we might call the "Queen's Domain" is an imaginary geographical area between 40 and 70 degrees north of the Equator, the "40/70 Window." It runs from the western tip of Ireland to the eastern tip of Siberia. It covers twelve time zones from Greenwich Mean Time to the International Date Line. On one side, the waves of the Atlantic Ocean roll up through the Bay of Biscay and on the other side the waves of the Pacific Ocean roll up through the Bering Sea.

In the 40/70 Window we find Europe, Eurasia, the Northern Mediterranean, Russia, Armenia, the Balkans, Turkey and the Turkic Belt, the "stans" of the former USSR, the ancient Silk Road running from Greece to China, Mongolia, the Xinjiang Province of China, North Korea, the Hokkaido Island of Japan just to name a few of the incredibly important geographical regions.

A whole cluster of considerations have helped us to understand, at least at this preliminary stage, why God might choose to focus our attention on the 40/70 Window. Our knowledge of the 10/40 Window increased exponentially during the 1990s, and I expect the same thing will happen with the 40/70 Window over the next few years.

One advantage that we have now, over what we had 10 years ago, is that the World Prayer Centre is well equipped with the technical infrastructure to serve as an unprecedented communications hub for researchers, intercessors, and prayer leaders. The Observatory unit at the WPC, is compiling an enormous spiritual mapping data base, and throughout Operation Queen's Domain they will be able to provide the strategic ongoing and up-to-date information that we need for informed intercession much more rapidly than in the past. Our prayers will therefore be directed toward much sharper targets than ever before.

Operation Queen's Palace concluded in Turkey, the recognised spawning grounds for worldwide goddess worship. We called it "Queen's" Palace because we consider the Queen of Heaven as a chief principality commissioned by Satan to keep unbelievers in spiritual darkness, and we have identified ancient Ephesus as one of her principal power centres where she formerly manifested in the person of Diana. We called it the "palace" because the temple of Diana (Artemis) in Ephesus syncretised, among other things, ancient Cybele worship, the Moon Goddess (Sin), and allegiance to Mammon(the temple was the first historical prototype of what we know today as the World Bank). Not surprisingly, Ephesus was also the site chosen by the church of that day for the Council of Ephesus in 431 AD which officially declared that Mary is the "mother of God." [Empasis added] Turkey and Ephesus area included in both the 10/40 Window and the 40/70 Window, so we are looking at Turkey as our principal hinge nation. An incredible love for Turkey among believers worldwide was ignited by Celebration Ephesus.

The Queen of Heaven has deeply penetrated and corrupted much of the traditional Christianity of the 40/70 Window. Hard-core idolatry has become a major problem in many churches throughout much of the 40/70 Window and it constitutes an enormous barrier to lost people being saved. Latin America was in a similar situation up through the 1950s, but the spiritual climate there has changed radically.

The 40/70 Window is the greatest area of dormant Christianity in today's world. Revival reports have recently been emerging from many different areas, but notably few of them are coming out of the 40/70 Window. The 40/70 Window contains more unsaved Christians than any other part of the world.

The 40/70 window is the heart of non-Arab Turkic Islam, which draws considerable spiritual power from the Moon Goddess, one of the manifestations of the Queen of Heaven. In a recent AD2000 report, Luis Bush has drawn our attention to the "Turkic Belt," also called the "35/45 Window," with nations clustered along the ancient Silk Road from Greece to China. Signs of spiritual breakthrough in the Turkic Belt, which we include in the 40/70 Window, point toward a kairos moment, demanding fervent and concentrated prayer. For example, in 1990 there were only around 1600 believers in the Turkic Belt, but by 1999 the number was over 43,000!

Several International leaders have been divinely drawn to the 40/70 Window. A few months ago I asked Roger Mitchell of U.K. to undertake coordination of all of Europe instead of simply coordinating Northern Europe as before. Roger has been one of the most dedicated and proactive of all the regional coordinators. Harold Caballeros, the equally effective coordinator in Spanish-Speaking Latin America, has resigned that position in order to focus his energies on Spain, a key nation of the 40/70 Window. Cindy Jacobs has also prioritized Spain on her ministry agenda for the next ten years. Gerda Leithgob has been led to concentrate on Poland. Ana Mendez and Marty Cassady have an unusual burden for Italy and Greece. Alice Smith has joined them in the focus on Italy. Cindy Jacobs has recently received words about ministry in Russia, including an assignment for Russian Jews. Martha Lucia of Christian International has received prophetic instructions to target the 40/70 Window.

Switzerland, considered by many the centre of world finance, is in the 40/70 Window, and many are discerning a close relationship between the Queen of Heaven and the spirit of Mammon.

The 40/70 Window hosts Brussels, Belgium, the headquarters of the United Nations where the promotion of the worship of Gaia or Mother Earth has become widely known. Some feel that she, another disguise of the Queen of Heaven, should become the recognised deity of the human race.

The 40/70 Window is a site of many of God's fresh starts: the Garden of Eden, Mt. Ararat, Ur of the Chaldees, Antioch, Wittenberg, Aldersgate, and others. We believe that another fresh start is on the horizon for the 40/70 Window.

Without knowing how important it would soon become in Operation Queen's Domain, over 200 highly-trained intercessors moved into the 40/70 Window at the time of what some occult practitioners called the "culminating spectacle of the heavens," namely the solar eclipse of August 11, 1999. Seventeen prayer journey teams moved out from the World Prayer Centre, while an equal number joined them from U.K. They were strategically located in England, Ireland, Spain, Portugal, France, Italy, Bosnia, Belgium, Germany, Switzerland, Poland, Hungary, Romania, Greece, and Turkey, as well as in Iraq and Israel of the 10/40 Window. This high-level prayer initiative has set in place a very sound spiritual infrastructure for Operation Queen's Domain.

It must be kept in mind that as we concentrate our prayer initiatives on the 40/70 Window, the nations and regions of the world which trace their cultural roots to peoples of the 40/70 Window will be directly affected. This means that nations like U.S.A, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Latin America, the Philippines, and other places will benefit immensely from Operation Queen's Domain.

Our prayers for the lost people in the 10/40 Window over the past decade have been incredibly productive. At the beginning of the decade the four most significant anti-Christian blocks were Communism, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Islam. Communism is no longer that significant, Buddhism is on the run, Hinduism is badly battered, and Islam has deep cracks that were not there previously. A large percentage of the unreached people groups now have church planting teams on site. We must continue to pray for and to evangelise the 10/40 Window, but it is now time to shift the primary target for strategic-level warfare to the 40/70 Window.

Much of the 40/70 Window is exactly where Latin America was fifty years ago. Now we are seeing revival fires burning in much of Latin America, and the Queen of Heaven is loosening her grip. We believe that in a much shorter time than that her grip on the 40/70 window will also be broken, and revival fires will be burning brightly from Ireland to Siberia.[Emphasis added.]

C. Peter Wagner International Director World Prayer Centre

Source: Global Harvest Ministries

And here's more on their coordinated attack on "the stronghold of the Queen of Heaven":

Breakthrough in Argentina

From, "The Voice of God" by Cindy Jacobs

Italics in original. This document provided for educational purposes.

A couple of months ago while I was writing this book, I was asked by Harvest Evangelism to go to the city of San Nicholas, Argentina. Harvest Evangelism is headed by Ed Silvoso, one of the foremost authorities on the subject of reaching entire cities for God. His book That None Should Perish is a classic on prayer evangelism. He tells in his book how as a 13-year-old boy, he would ride his bicycle to the western shore of the Parana River, and for a precious hour he would meet with the Lord and pray for his skeptical city of 100,000 souls. But it seemed as though no one was interested in becoming a Christian

Some 35 years later, Ed's heart still longed for a breakthrough in his home city. The pastors in the city had been in disunity, and strife had been rampant. San Nicholas was a tough place to try to pastor a church.

In the fall of 1994, as I was reading Ed's book, the Lord spoke to me, "Cindy, I want you to go to San Nicholas. I'm going to answer the prayers Ed prayed when he was a 13-year-old boy. In addition, my people are crying out to me and San Nicholas is a very special city." [Emphasis added]

As I traveled to the city with Dan and Elaine Jue, missionaries with Harvest Evangelism, they shared with me how San Nicholas was known as "the graveyard of evangelists." That was certainty a faith-building bit of information! But upon our arrival, I discovered some good news. The intercessors and some of the pastors had been on a 40-day Daniel fast (i.e., vegetables and water), and it was to end the second day of the meetings. (I was only there for a two-day seminar, co-teaching with Ed Delph.)

We met for the first session at the Harvest Evangelism campground outside the city. It was so packed that people were standing outside looking into the windows! I felt led to share about the redemptive purpose God had in mind for the city of San Nicholas. By redemptive purpose, I mean the reason God created the city; and His plans and destiny in the Kingdom for it.

The name Nicholas comes from the Greek word nikao and means overcomer or victor. The word nikao is used in two significant places in Scripture related to prophetic warfare. First in Luke 11:22, Jesus Himself talked about overcoming the strongman. The second reference is found in Revelation 2 and 3 and is addressed to the churches in the cities concerning their need to overcome. A particularly powerful promise was given in Revelation 2:26 to the church in Thyatira, "And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations" (italics added).

I believe it is no mistake that the name Nicholas was given to this city in Argentina. From the looks of things, however, the city was not experiencing the victory God meant for it. Why was this? The pastors were working as hard as they could and loved the Lord.

As the local leaders studied the city, one major thing was apparent. A stronghold of the Queen of Heaven was present in the city. This demonic spirit that counterfeits as Mary had appeared there and told the locals she wanted a grand cathedral built. People came from all over the world to worship her there. Many of the walls of the city were painted with pictures of her, declaring it to be her city.

As I read the Scripture from Jeremiah 7:16-19 to the meeting, about how the worship of the Queen of Heaven brings God's wrath upon a city, it was very quiet. I was thinking how similar their situation was to the city of Rosario, which I wrote about in the chapter dealing with strongholds in the book Breaking Strongholds in Your City. Rosario had also been given to the Queen of Heaven. Explaining that the Queen of Heaven was not the Virgin Mary and that Mary would be very unhappy to be given the title of a demonic power brought great understanding to the local leaders.[Empasis added]

That night the church, held in a theater, was packed. The pastors came prepared by the Holy Spirit. This is how I led the meeting:

I taught on God's purpose for the city.

We looked at the stronghold of the Queen of Heaven. It seems wherever we have found this kind of idolatrous worship, the city's economy has dropped dramatically. This had happened in San Nicholas. It used to have a big factory that brought large amounts of revenue. After the appearance of the Queen, poverty hit the city; the factory closed down and many were out of work. This directly correlates to Deuteronomy 28 that lists the curses that come from idolatry. [Emphasis added]

It is irresponsible to take people into spiritual battle without—as much as possible—making sure the "holes in their armor" are closed. Such "holes" are openings where Satan has legal right to hit them because of sin issues such as unforgiveness, relational problems between churches and so on. We had taken care of these issues earlier in the day by taking time for repentance. During this time, the pastors had knelt down and wept because of their strife and division. I'll never forget one pastor who prayed, "Perhaps this is why the fire has gone out in my heart, It is because I have spoken against my brothers."

Another area we covered was personal generational sin. Repentance was needed for those who had participated in the worship of idols or their ancestors. We had to shut the door to anything Satan would try to do to "backlash" against them after we prayed. This was a major spiritual battle and I had the fear of the Lord upon my life as I led them into war.[Emphasis added]

That day, the leaders repented of various kinds of generational sin: sins of witchcraft, consulting occultic healers, reading the astrological forecasts, participation in secret societies such as freemasonry, the worship of the Queen of Heaven and other idols. I then prayed that God would break the curses of poverty, insanity, infirmity and others that come with such worship. (Again refer to Deut. 28.)

The last step was to ask the pastors to come forward to repent for the sin of the worship of the Queen of Heaven in their city. Many came to the platform. I did not pray because it was not my place of authority to do so. [Emphasis added.] Those who live in the city are responsible for the sin. Also, the pastors and spiritual leaders are the "spiritual gatekeepers" for their city and they have great power in the Spirit to deal with the city's strongholds. The pastors knelt as did everyone else in the church. This kind of humility is important because it is part of the 2 Chronicles 7:14 pattern. A holy hush filled the room. Many began to weep as the pastors chose who would pray and represent them.

After the leaders of San Nicholas repented for idolatry and the worship of the Queen of Heaven, they stood to their feet and with loud voices of victory, entered into their redemptive destiny as overcomers! They proclaimed before the host of heaven, the demons in hell and those assembled that Jesus was Lord over San Nicholas. They pronounced that it was God's city and that it did not belong to the Queen of Heaven. To use Neil Anderson's terminology, they renounced the hold of the Queen of Heaven and announced the Lordship of Jesus Christ over the city! [Emphasis added] They took away the keys and legal right the prince of darkness had used to lock up their city spiritually. Chills ran down my back that night as these repentant people stood up in the power and authority given them through the King of kings.

As I looked around the church, my spirit discerned myriads of angels with bright swords warring over the city. Hosts and hosts of mighty warring angels fought back the dark angels surrounding the strongman until at last he left in defeat.[Empasis added]

At the end of the service, the Holy Spirit gave me a prophetic word that a businessman attending the meeting was going to start putting signs all over the city stating, "San Nicholas, where Jesus is Lord!" I exhorted the people to paint the outer walls of their homes with this declaration, thus welcoming the King into their city. Later, a young leader came to me and said he felt he was the one who would lead the campaign to fill the city with signs declaring the lordship of Christ. Already, I could tell the anointing of the overcomer was filling his heart.

After the service, some of the leaders asked me, "Cindy, how will we know that the power of this demonic strongman is broken?"

I answered, "People will not worship her here anymore. She will leave." [Emphasis added]

Exactly one week later; on November 25, 1994, the headline of the San Nicholas newspaper read, "The Virgin has moved to Tucum'an." Tucum'an is about 600 miles away from San Nicholas. Evidently, it was said she appeared in the freezer of a poor peasant. One of the Harvest missionaries, Dan Jue, put it this way in his report:

The demon behind the virgin found things so hot in San Nicholas that it literally went into a deep freeze. The spiritual significance is that the demonic stronghold in San Nicholas has been battered down! The grip of the forces of darkness has been broken! This is really a new day for this area! Gloria a Dios! The city is in the process of being transformed from the city of Maria (Queen of Heaven) to the city of Jesus Christ. [Emphasis added] You may find it strange that a Baptist should wax so mystically over what has occurred in the past few weeks in San Nicholas. But I have no other explanation except that God has done something supernatural in this area. Hallelujah to the King of kings!

That same month, the pastors of San Nicholas got together. Usually, only about three pastors would come and conduct a sort of business meeting. This time it was different. Twenty-one pastors came and they prayed for each other and blessed the work of God in each other's churches. Pastors who had been bitter enemies were hugging and praying for reconciliation.

Remember Luke 11:22? The stronger (the Church of Jesus Christ) overcame the strongman, took from him all the armor in which he trusted, and divided his spoils! The city of San Nicholas is fulfilling its destiny and becoming a city of God.

Reference: The Voice of God by Cindy Jacobs

For more on this subject, see Operation Queen's Palace and OVERCOMING THE QUEEN OF HEAVEN.

Finally, one must also consider the tendency of some Pentecostalists to discount Marian apparitions as UFO encounters. See the Wikipedia entry, The Fatima UFO Hypothesis

Scripture is very clear about the demonic attack on the Queen of Heaven in the End Times:

Revelation 12 (New International Version)

Revelation 12

The Woman and the Dragon
 1A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. 4His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. 5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

 7And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

 10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
   "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God,
      and the authority of his Christ.
   For the accuser of our brothers,
      who accuses them before our God day and night,
      has been hurled down.
 11They overcame him
      by the blood of the Lamb
      and by the word of their testimony;
   they did not love their lives so much
      as to shrink from death.
 12Therefore rejoice, you heavens
      and you who dwell in them!
   But woe to the earth and the sea,
      because the devil has gone down to you!
   He is filled with fury,
      because he knows that his time is short."

 13When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach. 15Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Clearly, there is a demonic attack against the Queen of Heaven. One must discern whether the recent manifestations of this attack within the Pentecostal movement are attributable to a Hindu Kundalini spirit unleashed at the Toronto Blessing which has subsequently infested much of the worldwide Pentecostal leadership and rank-and-file members.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian
KEYWORDS: freformed
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1 posted on 10/11/2010 2:57:25 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: surroundedbyblue; sneakers; Colleen Hammond; annalex; dsc; mockingbyrd; BlackElk; ELS; ...
Recently a family member started attending a Pentecostal school founded by Pastor Randy Clark near Harrisburg to become a Pentecostal preacher. I was asked by another family member if I knew anything about this school.

I had not heard of Randy Clark before, but I had heard of the Toronto Blessing from Catholic periodicals years ago. When I found out that Randy Clark began the Toronto Blessing movement in 1994, I started digging further.

I didn't like what I found. I've tried to summarize it here in this thread.

I think it all comes together in helping understand the strident animosity of some Pentecostals to Catholicism and certain Catholic and Marian devotions.

2 posted on 10/11/2010 3:03:56 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

To our brothers and sisters in the Charismatic Renewal within the Catholic Church, this site is a call to consider ...

Consider what you profess to believe, and what the implications of that belief may mean. We hold the position that the Catholic Church is unique - a position that Vatican II reaffirmed. At the heart of the uniqueness of the Catholic Church is its Apostolic nature - an Apostolic nature that can be traced back through the imposition of hands upon the heads of Bishops through the entire Church age.

What, then, should a Catholic think of a Pentecostal group that claims to have been given a new 'Apostolic' authority to establish a new 'government' for the Church? Would you or should you worship with these new 'Apostles'? Would you or should you attend their meetings, buy their books or receive their 'blessing'? What if these same groups have launched a prayer campaign against the Queen of Heaven? Would you still let the leaders lay hands on you? If you participated in Celebrate Jesus 2000 in St. Louis, that is exactly what happened?

Consider your relationships within the movements in the Church - have you become entangled in a community or group that has damaged your capacity to exercise your free will? Has the initial euphoria of being initiated into a group or movement given way to the realization that your life is not in your control anymore, but in the control of the group's leadership? There are several testimonies here that should give you hope.

Consider the great Gift that you have received in Jesus Christ and how this Gift is given freely in the Catholic Church. If you are a nominal Catholic or are away from the Church, consider coming home. Come home to our Lord in the Eucharist. Consider it.

Those who manage this site are not anti-Charismatic. We do believe that God moves in mysterious ways. However, we also believe that those ways will only lead one deeper into union with His Church, never away from it.

Those who manage this site are not anti-Protestant. In fact, several of us are ex-Protestants, with friends and family still worshipping in the Protestant confessions. While our Protestant brothers and sisters might find something to argue with us about on this site, its purpose is not to cause that argument, nor to enter into it here. We have included links to several excellent Catholic apologetics sites that routinely debate these issues with charity and clarity. For our part, we have wrestled with the many issues that may offend you, have considered and prayed over them and have become convinced of the historic nature of the Church and her doctrines. This site picks up where those convictions have led us. We do NOT believe in a false ecumenism that holds that everything and anything goes. Unlike many in the "River" movement, we DO believe that doctrine is important. Having said that, we do not question your love for Jesus nor the sincerity of your quest to give Him all of your life. Please allow us the same courtesy and do not relegate us to hell out of an ill-founded prejudice. You, too, should consider coming home.

Lastly, we have used many sources and articles readily available on the Web or in print on this site. We do this in the interest of research and education. We do not profit monetarily from such use in any way. If you are the author of one of these sources and wish your material to be removed from this site, simply contact us and the item(s) will be removed at once.

Christ's Peace!

Catholic Reason.com

3 posted on 10/11/2010 3:09:26 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
TORONTO BLESSING (a little treatise)
a.k.a. The Anointing, Revival, Father's Blessing
Colin B. Donovan, STL
I. CHARISMATIC GRACES (In General)

a. All authentic charisms are at the service of the Body of Christ, the Church (1 Cor 12, 14). As gifts of the Holy Spirit, they are supernatural graces beyond the power of human striving and human nature (e.g. miracle working), though some may build upon the natural talents of the recipient (e.g. teaching). St. Paul contrasts these charismata with "the greater gifts" of Faith, Hope and Charity (1 Cor. 13) which he says have lasting value. These "theological virtues" unite the person's mind and will to God. As a consequence, the Church teaches that Faith, Hope and Charity are necessary for salvation but the charismata are not. St. Paul's experience at Corinth demonstrated rather early in the Church how susceptible these charisms are to exaggeration. In another context, he would even warn the Corinthians that the devil can appear as an angel of light (1 Cor 11:14). Similarly, both St. Peter and St. John (1 Pet 5:8-9; 1 John 4:1) warn us of this danger.

b. St. Thomas Aquinas in his Summa Theologiae [ST II-II q177] tells us that the Holy Spirit does not accomplish the charisms directly but through the mediation of angels. Since they are within the power of the angelic nature, they are also capable of demonic imitation. It is difficult to explain the "charismatic power of speech" of a Hitler, for instance, on purely natural grounds. It is for these reasons that most spiritual writers, especially the mystical doctor St. John of the Cross, warn us not to seek such extraordinary phenomenon. The Magisterium, likewise, had this to say at the Second Vatican Council.

Whether these charisms be very remarkable or more simple and widely diffused, they are to be received with thanksgiving and consolation since they are fitting and useful for the needs of the Church. Extraordinary gifts are not to be rashly desired (my emphasis) nor is it from them that the fruits of apostolic labors are to be presumptuously expected. Those who have charge over the Church should judge the genuineness and proper use of these gifts, through their office, not indeed to extinguish the Spirit but to test all things and hold fast to what is good (cf. 1 Thes. 5:12, 19- 21). [Lumen Gentium 12]

Unfortunately, the appearance in the Church of a "sola scriptura" (Scripture alone) mentality has robbed many Catholics of the Holy Spirit's wisdom embodied in the Church's Sacred Tradition. We need to recover our faith in Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium if this trend is to be reversed.

 

II. DISCERNMENT (In General)

a. The Apostle John encourages us to test the spirits (1 John 4) and over the years the Church has developed criteria to determine whether the fruits are good or bad (Mt. 7:15-20). St. John teaches that if anyone denies Jesus Christ has come in the flesh (1 John 4:3) it is proof that the person does not have the Spirit of God. We can call this the doctrinal test of the fruit. The Spirit of God would never lead one away from the truth about Christ. Since the Church is an extension of the mystery of the Incarnation, the Spirit of God would never lead one away from the Catholic Church or Her teachings. Similarly, the Spirit of God would never lead one away from the practice of the faith (morally, devotionally, sacramentally). Christ has left us the means of salvation and His Spirit would never deprive us of them. This could be called the practical test of the fruit. "Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven" (Mt. 7:21-23). Positively said, the Holy Spirit's activity (including among non-Catholics) must necessarily tend toward Catholic truth and unity (doctrine and practice), no matter how remote that unity might appear.

b. On the other hand, a spirit which acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh is of God (1 John 4:2). Such doctrinal correctness is a motive of credibility in the authenticity of a charism or event. Yet, a person may simply be operating by the human spirit fortified by Faith and may not be manifesting an extraordinary gift. To determine whether a given phenomenon exceeds human nature calls for a discernment beyond simple orthodoxy. When a bishop declares an event to be "worthy of belief" or "not worthy of belief" he does so based upon both scientific (can it be explained?) and theological (is it from God?) criteria. If he faithfully and prudently performs this discernment, there is little likelihood that he would err. Although such a decision is not infallible, the prudent Catholic will give it great weight, and in any case faithfully obey any regulations he may enact.

c. Since only the Magisterium has the charism of infallibility, a local bishop isn't able to positively affirm that a given phenomenon is from God. It belongs to the Pope, or the bishops acting collegially (Lumen Gentium 25), to make such a determination. The Popes do this quite frequently when they affirm the miraculous character of a cure offered in support of a Cause for Canonization. When they grant an official status to an apparition such as Lourdes (by canonizing the seer and granting a Feast Day for the apparition itself), we can be certain that it is from God. Only a few mystical phenomenon ever achieve this degree of certainty.

d. There is yet another dimension of the discernment which needs to be considered. Since charisms are given to build up the Church, there is no necessary connection with personal sanctity. Saints, sinners and even unbelievers have manifested these gifts. The pagan prophet Balaam was given the Divine spirit of prophecy in order to authenticate Israel as the People of God (Num. 22). Thus the moral state of the recipient (good or bad) does not by itself indicate a true or false charism. When actually under the constraint of the Spirit of God, however, the true charismatic could not say or do anything contrary to that Spirit. No one could claim, for instance, that the Spirit of God led him to get drunk or do anything sinful, although he might at other times do such things. This is why the mystical phenomena that takes place during the life of a person is considered equivocal evidence of holiness and may even complicate a Cause for Canonization.

e. Individuals can also do much to discern the spirit. As noted earlier, it is easier to dismiss a phenomenon as certainly NOT from God than it is to determine its exact origin. For the laity especially, this is generally enough. Knowing which of the other two possibilities (human or demonic) would be secondary to knowing it was NOT from God. This has been true at apparitions such as Necedah, Wis. and Bayside, NY., where many Catholics knew something was wrong well before the local bishops judged them as unworthy of belief. Even without the episcopal grace and the help of a commission of experts, we can apply our sense of the faith, the general theology of the Church and the history of authentic mysticism to such phenomena. We need only prayerfully ask "is a particular event a credible example of the action of the Spirit of God - a Spirit incapable of any lie or sin and which can only lead people (even non-Catholics) to a deeper Catholic faith and unity?" Pending the action of the local bishop or a decision of the Holy See, this should do much to protect us from the roaring lion (1 Peter 5:8).

 

III. TORONTO BLESSING (In Particular)

a. The signs and wonders associated with the Toronto Blessing, as reported in God's Manifest Presence, a Toronto Airport Vineyard publication (the church from which the phenomenon is spreading) are: shaking, jerking, loss of bodily strength, heavy breathing, eyes fluttering, lips trembling, oil on the body, changes in skin color, weeping, laughing, drunkenness, staggering, travailing, dancing, falling, visions, hearing audibly into the spirit realm, inspired utterances -prophecy, tongues, interpretation - angelic visitations and manifestations, jumping, violent rolling, screaming, wind, heat, electricity, coldness, nausea as discernment of evil, smelling or tasting good or evil presences, tingling, pain in the body as discernment of illnesses, feeling heavy weight or lightness, trances -altered physical state while seeing into the spirit world, inability to speak normally, disruption of natural realm - electrical circuits blown.

b. The teachings of the leaders of this movement, who accuse Catholicism of stifling the Spirit and praise Luther and the Reformation for freeing it, includes:

There is going to be a move of the Spirit of God that is going to include powerful signs and wonders, such as the early days of the Church in Jerusalem. There is also going to be leaders raised up in the Body of Christ that are going to move in an authority that will be trans-denominational. They will be pastors of pastors, and will be recognized as spokesmen and leaders for the government of God in the Body of Christ across all denominational lines. [Marc Dupont, as reported in Catch the Fire by Guy Chevreau]

c. Based on the principles of discernment enunciated earlier, it seems exceedingly unlikely that the Toronto Blessing is from God. Those who receive it exhibit both heterodoxy (false teaching) and bizarre behavior incompatible with the Holy Spirit. Some phenomena, such as uncontrollable laughter, could be the result of the human spirit and does not necessarily forebode demonic activity. The reports of bestial grunting and groaning, and rolling around on the floor, however, is worrisome, since the same reactions accompany authentic cases of possession, both in Scripture and in Church experience. They are not, however, unequivocally extraordinary since they are within our power. Of a more certain extraordinary character is the phenomenon called "holy glue." (A person becomes extremely heavy and others are unable to move them). This is a recognized mystical phenomenon called "extreme immobility" and is the opposite of levitation. It is clearly beyond us; however, it is within the power of an angel. Levitation is better known among the saints and is usually explained as the result of the ecstatic striving of the soul toward God. In the case of immobility, it has been reported in connection with reports of supernatural protection from some external evil - such as a physical assault, attack on one's virtue etc. It would be interesting to know the meaning in the cases associated with the Toronto Blessing. Does it manifest a "going down," as opposed to the "going up" of levitation? Or is God protecting some souls from the immodest behavior which seems associated with the Toronto Blessing? Or does it have a positive meaning that supports the authenticity of the Blessing? In any case, the entire mystical tradition teaches us that we must never seek such phenomenon since through them the devil misleads many souls. Yet, this is exactly what people are doing in great numbers, including many Catholic laity and clergy.

d. Another point has to do with the bizarre behavior in general. In the Summa [II-II, q168] St. Thomas explains that modesty (which most people falsely associate only with sexual matters) has to do with becoming behavior in general. This includes such things as dress, mannerisms, laughter, play - anything which could ennoble or debase the dignity of the person. Quoting St. Ambrose and St. Augustine, Aquinas says: "the habit of mind is seen in the gesture of the body, and the body's movement is an index of the soul....from these things the man that lies hidden in our hearts is esteemed to be either frivolous, or boastful, or impure, or on the other hand sedate, steady, pure, and free from blemish." [Ambrose, De Officiis]

"In all your movements, let nothing be done to offend the eye of another, but only that which is becoming to the holiness of your state." [Augustine, Rule]

Continuing, he adds, "And in so far as outward movements are signs of our inward dispositions, their moderation belongs to the virtue of truthfulness, whereby a man, by word and deed, shows himself to be such as he is inwardly."

As St. Paul notes, "God is not the God of disorder but of peace" (1 Cor. 14:33). The god of disorder is, of course, the devil.

Similarly, one of the modern experts in mystical theology, Fr. Jordan Aumann, OP, in his book Spiritual Theology, places gravity and discretion among the signs of the Spirit of God. Both of these marks seem greatly lacking in the behavior of those under the influence of the spirit of the Vineyard.

Gravity. The Holy Spirit is never the cause of things that are useless, futile, frivolous or impertinent. When He moves the soul it is always for something serious and beneficial.

Discretion. The Holy Spirit makes the soul discreet, prudent and thoughtful in all its actions. There is nothing of precipitation, lightness, exaggeration, or impetuosity; all is well-balanced, edifying, serious, and full of calmness and peace.

e. Finally, if the Toronto Blessing is ordered to the building up of a trans-denominational church authority, as some of its leaders suggest, then it is incompatible with Catholic truth and unity. It already has begun to demonstrate this property by the divisions being created in parishes and the Church at large. Aside from the dangers associated with a false charism, the participation of Catholics in a movement with such a goal would certainly be a grave sin.

 

© Colin B. Donovan, STL 9/25/95
rev. 3/31/99 (The Year of the Father)



History of this Anointing:
(from the movement's literature and other public sources)


Reinhard Bonnke – The "grandfather" of the Revival Movement. A missionary in Kenya, in 1988 he publically prophesied that people would experience Jesus in two days and many miracles would occur. According to the Kenyan Times, two days later on June 11th, 1988, a white robed man suddenly appeared among the crowd at a Christian healing and prayer service in a village near Nairobi. Christians and Moslems alike recognized him as Jesus and many miracles  were reported. On the web site of Benjamin Creme, the new age prophet, we are told this was Lord Matraiya, "Christ returned, the fifth Buddha, the Messiah, the Kalki Avatar, the World Teacher" who will usher in the New Age (
www.shareintl.org/job). Bonnke's disciples have tried to disassociate him from this prophesy. However, it has hardly dampened the enthusiasm of Pentecostals for Bonnke's anointing.

Rodney Howard-Browne – South African minister who received the spirit from Reinhard Bonnke and then passed it on to American pastor Randy Clark.

Randy Clark – a minister who received the anointing from Rodney Howard-Browne and passed it to the Toronto Airport Vineyard Church when invited there by John Arnott on Jan. 20th, 1994.

John Arnott – The founder of Spread The Fire Inc, co-founder of the International Revival Network and Senior Pastor of Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship (TACF), the North American center of the Blessing Movement.

Marc Dupont – One of the TACF assistant pastors and a prophet of the Toronto Blessing movement. His have been some of the most explicit statements of the goals of the revival, as far as a new church are concerned.

Eleanor Mumford – Received the anointing at Toronto and brought it to Holy Trinity Anglican, Brampton, England. It has become another principal center of propagation.

Steve Hill – American minister who went to a revival at Brampton and was anointed. He, in turn, brought it to the Brownsville Assembly of God in Pensacola, FL, in 1995. Brownsville has become another major center.

John Kilpatrick – pastor of the Brownsville Assembly of God, Pensacola, FL, where they claim 2.5 million people have attended Revival services.


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4 posted on 10/11/2010 3:10:42 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

Good work!


5 posted on 10/11/2010 3:12:06 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

"Never apologize for the

Blessed Virgin Mary!"

~~Mother Angelica

 

Mother Angelica and Marcus Grodi with Rosalind Moss and Kristine Franklin


6 posted on 10/11/2010 3:12:33 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Well, after stumbling across all this data, a lot of the recent history on Catholic threads certainly started to make more sense.


7 posted on 10/11/2010 3:14:00 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

And the Bible tells us:

“Beware of false prophets.”

The thing is some poeple do not want to know that the person they are listening to, following, whatever — is in fact — a false prophet!


8 posted on 10/11/2010 3:21:46 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
"Indeed." After watching the first three videos, I cannot understand how anyone with a sense of Christian discernment cannot see that.
9 posted on 10/11/2010 3:23:16 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

Thanks for getting this information all together in one place. We Catholics probably need to stop squabbling and start praying... a LOT.

Of course I’d really like to hear the Catholic side of the procession story.


10 posted on 10/11/2010 3:52:31 PM PDT by Legatus (Keep calm and carry on)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
Well, after stumbling across all this data, a lot of the recent history on Catholic threads certainly started to make more sense.

True. No wonder nothing gets through, these people are infested with the demonic.

11 posted on 10/11/2010 4:05:50 PM PDT by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

“Not long after the wholesale Kundalini infestation of the Pentecostal movement, some leaders of the Pentecostal movement began a wholesale assault on the “Queen of Heaven””

Of course, she grinds the serpent beneath her heel.


12 posted on 10/11/2010 4:14:50 PM PDT by OpusatFR
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To: Judith Anne
No wonder nothing gets through, these people are infested with the demonic.

If this thing spreads like a virus, consider the implication for how widespread it must be in the overall global Pentecostal movement.

From Second Protestant Reformation By Sylvia MacEachern:

Wildfire Transmission

One source offers a conservative estimate that within nine months 90,000 people had attended the Toronto Airport Vineyard. Of those, 30,000 attended for the first time, and "over 4,000 pastors, spouses and leaders from across North America, Britain, Chile, Argentina, Switzerland, France, Germany, Scandinavia, South Africa, Nigeria, Japan, New Zealand and Australia have come to receive the outpouring."’ Virtually every Christian denomination has been represented in those numbers — including, we now know, Roman Catholic.

The October 1994 Catch the Fire Conference held in Toronto drew twenty five hundred participants from twenty countries. It was aimed specifically at pastors and leaders (included in that "multitude" were Fathers Roger Vandenakker and Dennis Hayes of Ottawa.)

Since Holy Laughter is said to be contagious or infectious, those who are "blessed" — especially pastors and leaders who are singled out for special Vineyard leaders’ sessions — typically return to infect their home congregations. Hence, one can only guesstimate the thousands upon thousands of poor souls worldwide who have, by now, been exposed to and infected with the Toronto Blessing. And, since each "blessed" person is capable of infecting another, it just goes and on and on and on like a plague.

Furthermore, if one is to believe the bizarre scenarios recounted by British author/editor and "Holy Laughter" proponent Dave Roberts, even the most unwitting and unlikely candidates become infected.

In order to put the following scenarios in their proper context, it must be understood that many of those who are "blessed" have a peculiar habit of breaking out into gales of uncontrollable laughter — often at the most inopportune times. Such was the scenario when, according to Roberts, a woman driving her car was listening to Rodney Howard-Browne on the radio. (Howard-Browne is the South African evangelist who is credited with triggering this epidemic.) The said woman was overcome by laughter and, it seems, her ability to navigate her vehicle deteriorated. The next sequence is quite straightforward: the woman’s driving was a little erratic; a policeman spotted her; the policeman was convinced she was drunk. Then the story takes a strange twist, which, if factual, proves the potency of the "blessing." When the policeman touched the woman as he tried to remove her from the car, "he began to laugh and was unable to do anything for several minutes." Once he had regained his composure and Howard-Browne had reached his appeal stage on the radio, the policeman, a "backslider Pentecostal," began to weep and the woman "led him back to the Lord." 2

The second account is similar. In this instance a woman was asked to take a breathalyzer test and, we are simply told: "as she blew into the bag, the policeman fell to the ground laughing."

No doubt it was incidents such as these, which prompted the following headline in The Daily Telegraph (London, England, 20 Nov. 1994): "The Blessed shall not drive cars.

Now for some interesting background on the Vineyard.

Since the Toronto Blessing is endorsed by, promoted by, and spreading through the world via the chain of Vineyard Fellowship churches, it is relevant and most revealing to take a look at the Vineyard, and, in particular, its affiliation with a group charged with "charismatic heresy."

What is now referred to as "the Vineyard" has its origins in 1977 when one John Wimber, a former evangelical Quaker and former manager of the Righteous Brothers, founded the Vineyard Christian Fellowship of Anaheim (California).4

As the Vineyard grew, so did question regarding its doctrine. By 1985, when the chain had swelled to 120 churches, the Christian Research Institute (CR1) studied the organization and issued a statement regarding their findings. Although the CR1 examines such groups from a purely Protestant and mainly evangelical perspective, their findings are noteworthy.

The CR1 found various positive things to say regarding the Vineyard (i.e., sound doctrine in most areas and basically operating in keeping with those things which would qualify it as a "sound Christian church". However, the CRI also found negatives.  Some of the problems which CRI identified then, are pertinent in light of the direction the Vineyard would take in future years.  Those are: an overemphasis on the "role of experience," a willingness to "assume that whatever transpires in their midst is of God", a lack of any written statement of faith; and an avoidance of setting strong doctrinal standards.

Then, in May 1990, John Wimber made an extremely controversial move. He allowed a group known as the Kansas City Fellowship (KCF, often referred to as the Kansas City Prophets) to join the Vineyard and come under his leadership.

KCF, founded in 1982 by one Mike Bickle (now a vocal and oft’ quoted proponent of "the Blessing"), was a controversial group even in charismatic/Pentecostal circles. The Kansas City Prophets were renown for giving wild "end-time" prophecies and for promoting the emergence of a "new breed" of end-time prophets. There were also stories circulating about KCF pastors experiencing angelic visitations, visiting Heaven and Hell, seeing auras around people, and receiving revelations from God. So outrageous were KCF teachings and prophecies to evangelical ears, that, shortly before the Vineyard/KCF merger, one charismatic leader charged KCF with "charismatic heresy." The group was also charged with teaching the "heresy" of another highly controversial group, the Latter Rain. 6

The Latter Rain, a "revival" movement originating within the Assemblies of God in North Battleford, Saskatchewan (1948-52), taught a doctrine called — interestingly — The Manifest Sons of God. This doctrine teaches that God will restore the offices of apostles and prophets; He will restore ‘the church’ to its intended position of power; many people will leave their denominational churches; under the authority of apostolic churches, believers will start to be perfected and mature into the full stature of Christ; at this time these "sons of God" will be fully manifested on earth; these sons will be equal to Jesus Christ — immortal, sinless, perfected sons who have partaken of the divine nature. ~ A most pertinent component of Latter Rain teachings is its prophecies that a "Second Pentecost" was to begin in Canada in 40 years (1989-1992!). The Assemblies of God officially rejected the Latter Rain teachings in 1949 as heresy.

John Wimber concurred that there were problems with KCF theology, and to that end put out a belated 15-point statement listing the errors he found. This occurred one month after the KCFlVineyard merger had transpired! Despite the statement, many were skeptical and feared that KCF theology would infiltrate and damage the Vineyard fellowship. Skeptics held variously that Wimber had: already been affected by KCF; been urged by Bickle back in 1988 to consider changing the Vineyard’s emphasis to than of a prophetic ministry; already introduced the new prophetic style ministry to the Vineyard in a 1989 edition of his periodical Equipping the Saints; affirmed, like KCF, that the "new breed" of prophets need not be accurate when prophesying; already featured many KCF "prophets" at a massive February 1990 Vineyard conference (9,000 with 4,000 turned away).


13 posted on 10/11/2010 4:27:52 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
Not surprisingly, Ephesus was also the site chosen by the church of that day for the Council of Ephesus in 431 AD which officially declared that Mary is the "mother of God."

Though it was Elizabeth, wife of a Jewish priest, who first said this.
14 posted on 10/11/2010 4:37:12 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
More:

"GIGGLING FOR GOD": A NEW SPIRIT OF HYSTERIA IS SPREADING IN CHURCH By Paul Likoudis
The Emperor Has No Clothes: The Chicken Little Syndrome and Spirituality - Part 1 By Lawrence A. Pile
The Emperor Has No Clothes: The Chicken Little Syndrome and Spirituality - Part 2 By Lawrence A. Pile
Alpha and the 'New Evangelization' by Paul Likoudis
The New Apostles By Mark Connell

15 posted on 10/11/2010 4:38:16 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
Yeah, the C Peter Wagner bunch are the Apostates of God's promised Delusion in Thessalonians and Isaiah..

I will send strong delusion... on those who do not tremble at my word.

Cindy Jacobs is one of the worst false prophets of the End Time. She prophesies out of Jezebel. All that fake spiritual warfare stuff is witchcraft and NEVER taught by Jesus. Look up her false prophecy on the I 35 highway that dissects the USA sometime (what an idiot she is, and God says that shame will come on all idolators). And yes, I am charismatic. I'd love to take on these liars of hell one on one sometime, they are deluding the church and it is a demonic spirit.

16 posted on 10/11/2010 4:40:56 PM PDT by Sontagged ( Faith without works is dead. This also means incessant prayer without attendant works is dead.)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

The Toronto Blessing

by Dr Nick Needham

Editorial Note from Original Publication in The Shepherd: We have taken the extraordinary step of featuring an article by a writer who is not Orthodox. Dr Nick Needham describes himself as a conservative Evangelical, by which he explains that be is a "traditional Reformation-style Protestant whose beliefs are rooted in Scripture and the ecumenical creeds." He also adds that he is a friend of St Edward Brotherhood. Although understandably there are therefore certain emphases in his writings which are not our own, we felt that his essay on the Toronto Blessing should be published in The Shepherd. Already we have had occasion to deal with TB pastorally, and its influence is spreading apace. Inroads are being made peripherally into Orthodox congregations. Dr Needham's expose of this deception is masterful, and is the result of much detailed study of the origins, progress and underlying erroneous doctrines of the phenomenon. Its warning is timely.

PART ONE

1. What is the Toronto Blessing?

The Toronto Blessing (or TB, as it is now often called) is a worldwide spiritual movement within Pentecostal and charismatic churches. It is named after the Toronto Airport Vineyard Church in Toronto, Canada, where the movement first hit the headlines in January 1994. Its advocates claim that the Blessing is a "sovereign move of God", a new and glorious work of the Holy Spirit. Many of them call it a "revival." However, others, conscious that scarcely any unbelievers are being converted through this movement, do not call it a revival, but a "renewal" of the Church. Many of them add that this renewal of the Church is being done by God as a prelude to a revival. Others claim that this is more than a mere renewal of the Church; it is God bringing to birth a new super-Church for the end times—a view which fits in with the doctrine known as "Latter-Rain Restorationism," which has been around in Pentecostal and charismatic circles for some time. The claim is also made by many advocates of the TB that those who resist this great move of God will, if they persevere in their resistance, be guilty of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and various dreadful things will happen to them. What exactly will happen is often left rather vague; the language used is that opposers will be "swept aside," "crushed," that sort of thing. On his video, The Coming Revival, Rodney Howard-Browne warns that opposers will be struck dumb and blind.

What then is this great blessing that God is allegedly pouring out on His Church at this time? According to its advocates, it is a fresh outpouring of the Holy Spirit which can be compared with the day of Pentecost. This outpouring happens when a leader, who has already received the blessing himself, then passes it on to others, usually in a meeting of a church or in a larger gathering of believers from various churches. These leaders, especially the more well-known ones, are often referred to as "anointed men," and the blessing itself is also often called the "anointing," or a "fresh anointing." Sometimes the anointed leader will simply call down the blessing on the entire gathering; more usually, people will be asked to walk to the front, where the leader and his team will lay hands on them, and transmit the blessing to them physically. A few of the leaders have stranger and more dramatic methods of passing on the blessing, e.g. blowing on people, hurling the blessing at people by dramatic hand gestures, or even transmitting the blessing into a tea-towel and then throwing the tea-towel at someone.

TB advocates claim that the blessing or anointing has two main effects on believers: (i) It brings them a fresh and overwhelming sense of God's love, which leads to wonderful joy; (ii) It lifts people up to new heights of spiritual life, so that they begin to walk much closer to God, praying more, reading the Bible more, evangelising more, etc.

If we look at what actually happens when people receive the blessing the immediate observable effects—we see the following:

(i) Almost without exception, people fall over onto their backs, sometimes gently, sometimes as if struck by a bolt of electricity. Those who fall sometimes black out. This phenomenon has of course been around for a long time in Pentecostal and charismatic circles, and is referred to as being "slain in the Spirit."

(ii) Often those affected are seized by a spirit of uncontrollable laughter. This laughter can last literally for days. On The Coming Revival video, Rodney Howard-Browne reports a man who (to use his language) got drunk on the Holy Spirit and laughed uncontrollably for 3 days. This particular phenomenon is referred to as "holy laughter," and it has been so widespread in the TB that it has sometimes been called "the laughing revival."

(iii) Often, but by no means always, when the blessing is imparted in a meeting, some will respond by making noises and bodily movements like various animals. In the early days of the TB, the most common of these animal manifestations was "roaring like a lion." However, this is in fact only one of many animal manifestations which have been observed. I myself have witnessed people gibbering like monkeys, barking like dogs, howling like wolves, and screeching like cats. Here is a description by a person who is in favour of the TB:

That room sounded like it was a cross between a jungle and a farmyard. There were many lions roaring, there were bulls bellowing, there were donkeys, there was a cockerel near me, there were sort of bird songs ... Everything you could possibly imagine, every animal you could conceivably imagine you could hear. [1]

There are other physical phenomena, such as holy drunkenness (staggering about as though drunk), dancing in the Spirit (tap-dancing, ballet dancing), running on the spot, and bouncing up and down like a grasshopper. However, these three—falling over, hysterical laughter and animal manifestations—these are the main physical manifestations of the blessing or anointing.

As for the inner spiritual or emotional experience, there is no reason to doubt that many people do feel an overwhelming sense of being loved, and tremendous feelings of joy and euphoria. The only question is how these emotional experiences should be interpreted, a question we will return to later.

2. What are the origins of the Toronto Blessing?

The TB originated within something called the Faith Movement in the U.S.A. The Faith Movement is better known in this country as the "health, wealth and prosperity gospel," because of its teaching that Christ has delivered believers from the curse of poverty and sickness. These are seen as evil powers from which Christ has liberated us by His work of atonement, so that all true believers ought to be living in a state of perfect health and material prosperity. However, this is only one aspect of what the Father Movement teaches. In a moment we'll look at a wider and fuller picture of the doctrines. First, though, let's introduce ourselves to the leading Faith Movement teachers (see chart in calendar insert).

These men have book, audiotape, video and satellite ministries that literally span the world. Their influence within the Pentecostal and charismatic movements is large and growing. I was recently in the bookshop of the Kensington Temple in London, one of London's most prominent Pentecostal churches, and the bookshop was selling hundreds of books and tapes by people like Kenneth Hagin, Benny Hinn, Rodney Howard-Browne, Morris Cerullo, Paul Yonggi Cho, Marilyn Hickey and others. The Faith Movement is also very widespread in Third World countries, e.g. Nigeria, where I spent 5 months last year. Morris Cerullo is very popular with Nigerians.

As I've indicated on the chart, almost all the spiritual phenomena and experiences which are now called the TB were in fact already taking place under the ministries of men like Benny Hinn, Rodney Howard-Browne and Kenneth Copeland years before the Toronto Airport Vineyard Church took these things on board. I've especially singled out these three men, because it was Rodney Howard-Browne who transmitted the blessing or anointing to the Toronto Airport Vineyard, and Howard-Browne has been closely linked with the ministries of Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland.

Now, before we look at how the blessing made its way from the Faith Movement to Toronto, let's get a clearer picture of what the Faith Movement actually believes and teaches—what its doctrines are. In his book Christianity in Crisis, Hank Hanegraaf sums up Faith Movement theology by using the mnemonic FLAWS. This stands for Faith in faith, Little gods, Atonement atrocities, Wealth and want, Sickness and suffering. We can summarise these teachings thus:

[The blasphemous ideas set forth in the five paragraphs which follow, it must be realized, are those of the Faith Movement teachers, people who nonetheless call themselves Christians, and whose doctrines are at the root of the TB—warning from The Shepherd editor]

Faith in faith: "Faith" is an independent spiritual force, a basic law of the universe. God Himself is a "faith God:" He created the universe by His faith. This involved God in visualising the universe in His imagination, and then speaking it into existence with "faith-filled words"—saying "Let it be" and believing that it would be. Man also can use the same power and create his own reality. This involves visualising what you want, and then speaking it into existence with faith in your creative words ("Positive confession"—sometimes called "Name it and claim it"). This force of faith is such a basic law of life that people of any religious belief can use it and get results. Christians must simply learn how to do what others (e.g. in the the New Age movement) are already doing.

Little gods: Adam in paradise was God's equal; he was "God manifested in the flesh," the god of planet earth. Man has no independent nature of his own; all he can do is share either in God's nature or Satan's. By giving in to Satan, Adam lost his godhead to the devil who thus became (quite rightly and legally) "the god of this world." And by his sin, Adam experienced a diabolical rebirth, acquiring Satan's nature. But through Christ, man regains his lost godhead and becomes as much an incarnation of God as Jesus Christ was. The believer is another Christ. Incidentally, many "Faith" teachers, eg. Rodney Howard-Browne, say that Christ abandoned His true deity when He became man. On earth, He merely partook of God's nature in the same sense that innocent Adam did, as a perfect man. Jesus was not God in the flesh, but a Spirit-filled "prophet under the Abrahamic covenant."

Atonement atrocities: Most Faith Movement teachers deny that Christ's death on the cross saves sinners. What really happened on the cross was that Jesus actually became sinful: He took on Himself the spiritual nature of Satan, thus being transformed from a divine to a demonic being—the same thing that had happened to Adam in Eden. This doctrine of the cross is often referred to in shorthand as "JDS"—"Jesus died spiritually." The real atonement took place after Jesus died. For the demonised spirit of Jesus literally went into hell itself, where He was tortured by demons for three days and three nights. Then Jesus was spiritually reborn in hell, recovering His lost divinity and defeating Satan. The same rebirth is granted to the believer, who is thus liberated from his satanic nature and becomes a god.

Wealth and want: Poverty is part of the curse of the law from which Christ has delivered believers. Christ Himself, when he was on earth, was a millionaire; he had so much money that He had to appoint Judas as His finance manager, and the reason why no-one noticed that Judas was stealing was because there was just so much money in the money-bag. Many Faith teachers require their followers to give them money with the promise that God will repay them tenfold. Such giving is called "sowing a seed of faith,"

Sickness and suffering: These too are demonic powers from which Christ has delivered believers. We must then claim our healing by faith, speak our health into existence by positive confession. Because man is essentially a spirit who merely lives in a body, sickness and healing are essentially spiritual and not bodily realities. So if physical symptoms of illness persist after we have claimed our healing, that is Just what our bodily senses tell us; we must deny this sense-knowledge by the higher spirit-knowledge of faith, which knows that healing has truly occurred in the spiritual realm.

You will gather from all this that the Faith Movement's belief in health, wealth and prosperity is only one of its many false doctrines. Far more serious are its heretical teachings about God, Christ and salvation.

Now the question we need to ask ourselves about all this, the $64,000 question, is this: If these Faith Movement leaders teach deadly heresy and destructive error, how can it be the Holy Spirit that is at work in their meetings and ministries? Remember that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth:

When the Helper comes, Whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of Truth Who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. (St. John 15:26).

He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it unto you (St. John 16:14).

But these Faith teachers do not teach the truth about Christ, and they do not glorify the Christ of the Scriptures, but a christ of their imaginations: a christ who was not almighty God in the flesh, a christ who was a millionaire, a christ who became demonised on the cross and atoned for sin "spiritually" in hell rather than by His blood, a christ who was only the incarnation of God in the sense that (according to them) every believer is an incarnation of God. It is no wonder that Bible-believing scholars and theologians like Hank Hanegraaf, Dan McConnell and others have concluded that the Faith Movement gospel is a "different gospel" (2 Corinthians 11:3-4). So what we are faced with in the Faith Movement is another gospel, another Jesus and another Spirit. The true Holy Spirit of God would never honour, sanction, or give credence to the ministries of people who teach poisonous error. Whatever spiritual power is at work through men like Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland and Rodney Howard-Browne, one must conclude that it is not the Spirit of Truth.

3. How did the Toronto Blessing arrive in Toronto?

Now let's see how the spiritual manifestations and phenomena, the so called anointing, that Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland and Rodney Howard-Browne were transmitting to thousands of people in the Faith Movement let's see how these things mad their way to Toronto. The key figures here are Rodney Howard-Browne himself, and a man called Randy Clark. Clark is the pastor of the Vineyard Church in St Louis, Missouri. In case you aren't familiar with this term "Vineyard Church," a Vineyard Church is a fellowship that belongs to a network of churches which look to John Wimber as their founder. Wimber is a leading American charismatic who became well-known in the 1980's for his emphasis on miraculous healing and on signs and wonders as a necessary part of effective evangelism. Randy Clark, then, is the pastor of one of these Wimber Vineyard churches in St Louis, Missouri.

An account of how Randy Clark received the blessing or anointing of the Spirit from Rodney Howard-Browne is found in the paper What in the World is Happening to us? This was written by Bill Jackson of the Vineyard movement to try and show that the TB is a good Biblical thing. Here is Bill Jackson's account of how the TB began:

Randy Clark is the founding pastor of the Vineyard Christian fellowship in St Louis, Missouri. After years of seeing little fruit and power in his ministry he became desperately hungry for God. Hearing of unusual manifestations of God's presence through the ministry of South African evangelist Rodney Howard-Browne, Randy attended one of Rodney's meetings in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Randy was powerfully touched and, in going home, began to see a similar outbreak of the Spirit among his people. [2]

That was in August 1993. So the "anointing" and the spiritual phenomena linked with it, which had been going on for some time under Rodney Howard-Browne, Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland, were now transmitted to Randy Clark. The anointing spilled out from the Faith Movement into the Vineyard Movement.

(One interesting point that Bill Jackson doesn't make clear in his account is where exactly Randy Clark went to the Rodney Howard-Browne meeting. Jackson simply says it was in Tulsa, Oklahoma. What he doesn't say is that Tulsa, Oklahoma, is the headquarters of Kenneth Hagin's branch of the Faith Movement, the Rhema Bible Church. Once we take that into account, it underlines the deep bond between Rodney Howard-Browne, the Faith Movement and the TB.)

Having received the blessing himself, Randy Clark then passed it on to the Toronto Airport Vineyard, at the invitation of its pastor, John Arnott, in January 1994. The meetings that Clark held in Toronto lasted 90 days, and were so powerful that the movement took off within the Vineyard network of churches, and acquired the nickname "the Toronto Blessing." The TB was given huge publicity, and charismatics from all over the world (many of them unaware of the Faith Movement and its teachings) began flocking to Toronto to "see what God was doing," to catch the blessing and take it back to their own churches. The TB, swiftly became a global phenomenon, striking roots in Britain, Europe, the Middle East, Africa, India, everywhere.

Now the important thing to remember at this point is the origins of the TB. It began in the Faith Movement. It began in a context of destructive and poisonous error. But now here are men like Randy Clark and John Arnott, who do not accept any of the heresies of the Faith Movement, happily and enthusiastically embracing the spiritual power that is at work in the Faith Movement. The false spirit that operates in the Faith Movement, zapping people, making them fall over and laugh and so on, all amid the most dreadful twisting and distorting of Scripture—that same false spirit has now been welcomed, accepted and endorsed by many of the Vineyard churches of John Wimber, and from them it has gone out into the charismatic and Pentecostal churches on a worldwide basis. They say it is God refreshing and renewing His Church. A more honest verdict would be that it is one of the worst delusions ever to afflict the professing Church of Jesus Christ. [N.B. Here, as elsewhere, the author is of course not using the term "Church" in the sense that it is understood by Orthodox Christians, but as understood from a Protestant perspectiveed.]

PART TWO

We have looked at the origins of the TB, the claims that are being made for it, and the experiences that people have when they receive it. We have seen good reason to believe that it is not the Holy Spirit Who is at work in this movement, because the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth, whereas the TB was born in Christ-denying heresy in the so-called Faith Movement. Now we are going to try and see what is really happening to people when they experience the TB.

1. TB experiences in other religions

The first thing we need to think about is the fact that the experience people have when they receive the blessing or the anointing from men like Rodney Howard-Browne—these experiences are not distinctively Christian in nature. By that, I mean that it is perfectly possible to have exactly the same emotional and physical experiences outside of Christianity, in other religions or other faiths. Let us take the emotional experience of feeling overwhelmingly loved. Rodney Howard-Browne lays hands on you and zaps you with this tremendous feeling of love. Is that a distinctively Christian experience? Well, before we decide, let's first of all listen to a testimony of someone who had this wonderful experience:

He extended his arms, and I suddenly saw Benjamin Creme's face disappear, and in the frame of what had been his face was a completely different face which didn't look anything like him. It was a face that was a sort of golden-bronze sort of colour, with very large dark eyes that were very luminous, and very high cheek bones, and a longish face. And He also had a beard, this extraordinary Being Who was looking at me. I actually saw Him for the full twenty minutes that this blessing lasted, so I had a very good chance to have a very good look at it, at this face. And when His eyes came directly into my line of vision, I felt these tremendous waves of energy radiating from this Being, and striking me in the heart. And I was really moved, to the very depths of my being, because what I actually experienced was a tremendously powerful and very pure love. It was something entirely remarkable, to experience a love like that. [3]

That testimony by Patricia Pinchon could fairly easily have come from a TB meeting. She has a vision of a Jesus-like face: not uncommon in those who receive the TB. She is overwhelmed by a feeling of "a tremendously powerful and very pure love" which moves her to the very depths of her being. Again, very common in the TB. It changes her life, makes her into a committed disciple of Benjamin Creme, the "anointed man" who transmitted this blessing to her. And the blessing is transmitted by Benjamin Creme in a physical way he extends his arms and calls down a blessing. So it all has an uncanny similarity to the TB. But of course, as you will have surmised, it wasn't a TB meeting at all. It was a New Age meeting. Benjamin Creme is a leading figure in the New Age movement in Britain. He claims to be in constant telepathic communication with a spirit-guide whom he calls "the Master," and he (Benjamin Creme) says his mission is to prepare people for the coming of the New Age Christ. He has a supernatural healing ministry and runs a New Age magazine called Share International. So Benjamin Creme, the New Age guru, is quite capable of transmitting this experience to people, whereby these beautiful feelings of love are channeled into their souls, accompanied perhaps by visions of a Jesus-like face. So I go back to my original statement: There is nothing distinctively Christian about the TB. It is perfectly possible to have exactly the same experiences outside of Christianity, in other religions or other faiths.

Just to emphasise the close connection between the TB and these other non-Christian religious experiences, Benjamin Creme was recently asked what he thought of the TB. His response was that he thought the TB was a good thing; it is, according to him, the method being used by his spiritual Masters to soften up Christian Fundamentalists to accept the New Age Christ when He appears.

Let's also think about the physical experiences that occur in the TB. Take the experience of being "slain in the Spirit," where people fall over after being touched, usually on the forehead, by an anointed leader like Rodney Howard-Browne. We have to say again that there is nothing distinctively Christian about this experience. It happens in other religions and other forms of spirituality. Listen to the following testimony about an Indian man by the name of Kumar Swami, a Christian working with Operation Mobilisation in India:

His father was some kind of witch-doctor in a village. One day a few years ago Kumar's elder brother announced that he had received 'the power.' To prove his point he stretched out his hand and touched, first his mother, and then Kumar — both of them fell to the ground as though stunned. Immediately his brother received the veneration of all the villagers and set off to demonstrate his power in other places. [4]

So an Indian witch-doctor can slay people in the Spirit by touching them. The question is, which spirit? The other physical phenomena, such as hysterical laughter and animal manifestations, are also found in other religions. The great Hindu guru, Swami Baba Muktananda (died 1982), transmitted these experiences to his followers by touching them on the forehead:

Manifestations included uncontrollable laughing, roaring, barking, hissing, crying, shaking, etc. Some devotees became mute or unconscious. Many felt themselves being infused with feelings of great joy and peace and love. [5]

Muktananda was simply channelling into his disciples experiences he himself had undergone. "Roaring like a lion" was one of his favourites:

My identification with a lion had become stronger still. I roared so much that the cows nearby broke their ropes and ran helter-skelter, dogs barked madly, and people rushed to my hut. Sometimes I would zigzag along on the ground like a snake, sometimes hop like a frog, sometimes roar like a tiger. My mind was held spellbound watching the extraordinary inner moods-of the Goddess Chiti. [6]

The same kind of experiences are well-documented in the activity of other influential 20th century Eastern gurus like Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh and Yan Xin, and among various pagan and mystical cults such as "Subud."

It is naive and foolish to think, just because a person claims to be a Christian and can channel these strange experiences to people, that it must therefore be the Holy Spirit at work. As we have seen, there are plenty of examples of this power at work in non-Christian religions. But nowhere in the Bible did the OT prophets or the NT Apostles go around touching people on the forehead and making them fall over, laugh hysterically or behave like animals. People in the Bible did sometimes have spiritual experiences which caused them to fall over, but never as the result of someone touching them on the forehead. It wasn't a power or force transmitted from one person to another; it was a response of humble worship to God as He revealed His glory That is totally different to what is going on in the TB, where the power that makes someone fall over is physically transmitted from one man to another, often without any accompanying religious feelings at all. And in the Bible, when people fell over, they always fell forwards on their faces in worship, not backwards in mindless shock or ecstasy as in the TB and these other pagan equivalents of the TB.

2. The distinctive features of true Christian experience

Now at this point, let us ask ourselves what is the difference between the kind of experiences we have been thinking about, and a genuine Christian experience? Let's think particularly about great and overwhelming experiences of God's love. Christians can and do have such experiences. It would be wrong and tragic for us to react against the TB by becoming suspicious or hostile towards all experiences of God's love. What we need to do is see the difference between the false TB experience of God's love, and the genuine Christian experience. So let us try to distinguish between the two. Look at Romans 5:5: "The love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit Who was given to us." What is the difference between this and the TB? We can pinpoint two important differences:

(i) A true Christian experience of God's love is not transmitted physically by touch, or by a man "calling down" the Holy Spirit on people. Human beings, however godly they may be, have no power to unleash the Holy Spirit into the souls of other believers. The Spirit is not some sort of force at man's disposal, to be thrown at people or blown onto people. There is nothing in Scripture to support such an idea. Yet this is how people like Benny Hinn and Rodney Howard-Browne behave, as if the Holy Spirit were some kind of liquid they can dispense to people by physical means, like alcohol. Indeed the Holy Spirit is often compared to alcohol in the TB. "The bar is open," TB leaders proclaim. "Come and take a deep drink of the Holy Spirit." And when people do come and drink and then exhibit the various bizarre forms of physical response, they are often said to be "drunk on the new wine." Rodney Howard-Browne has brought this approach to dispensing the Holy Spirit to its most extreme form; one often hears him commanding the Lord Jesus Christ to zap people with the Holy Spirit. "Go get 'em, Jesus," you hear him saying. "Go get all those stuffed religious faces and make 'em laugh. Fill 'em up, Jesus!" It seems quite clear that Rodney Howard-Browne thinks that he has Christ and the Holy Spirit at his disposal.

By contrast with all this, Scripture does not teach any idea, or give any example, of people being able to (as it were) transplant the Holy Spirit by physical means into the soul of a Christian. The nearest we get to anything even remotely resembling this notion is that on two occasions in Acts, the Apostles laid hands on people that they might receive the Holy Spirit. These two occasions are found in Acts 8, where Peter and John lay hands on the Samaritan believers, and Acts 19, where Paul lays hands on the Ephesian disciples of John the Baptist. But in both these cases, these were people who had not yet received the Holy Spirit at all; neither the Samaritans, nor the Ephesian followers of John, had in any sense been made partakers of the gift of the Holy Spirit, until the Apostles laid hands on them. This was the very first giving of the Spirit to these people to indwell them as believers in Christ. So It is a totally different situation from the TB, because in the TB the people to whom Rodney Howard-Browne and others allegedly transmit the Holy Spirit are already professing Christians—indeed, they are charismatic and Pentecostal Christians, who would claim to have already received the Holy Spirit in a special fashion anyway. Yet apparently Rodney Howard-Browne is able to give the Holy Spirit to them all over again by tapping them on the forehead. [Editor's notethe Scriptural passages cited here by our author refer to the Mystery of Chrismation, see The Shepherd (Volume XV, Number 11, August 1995, pages 11-13 Saint Nicolas Varzhansky's "The Whole Armour of Truth " chapter 9, Concerning Chrismation). What he writes in no way contradicts such an Orthodox inference, although of course, writing as a Protestant and primarily to Protestants, he does not begin to address, and perhaps does not admit, the Church's sacramental theology.]

So even on the two occasions where Scripture does show us the Holy Spirit being imparted by the laying on of hands (which is not the same as tapping someone on the forehead), it is very different to the TB, because in Scripture it refers to the first ever reception of the Holy Spirit into the life of believers to indwell them, rather then some subsequent so-called blessing. And of course, in Scripture, it was the Apostles alone through whom God worked in this way. See Acts 8:18-19. The Apostles were unique; no-one today can claim the status and power they exercised. (In Acts 8, if Rodney Howard-Browne rather than Philip had been evangelising the Samaritans, he would not have waited for the Apostles to come from Jerusalem to lay hands o n the new converts. He would have It zapped" the Samaritans himself) [Editor's note: again our author's interpretation is not an Orthodox one, because he does not admit the Church's teaching on the Priesthood, and the grace granted to the successors of the Apostles to impart grace to the faithful throughout subsequent ages and unto the end of time. This is made even clearer in a long footnote which he appended here regarding Ananias and the baptism of the holy Apostle Paul, which we have omitted because it confounds his error, rather than elucidating the situation. The reason why St. Philip, one of the first seven deacons, did not minister the Mystery of Chrismation to the Samaritans was that, at that time, he was not a Bishop. However, Dr Needham’s essential point here is a true one. The TB leaders usurp powers that they do not have; they do not employ the Scriptural and traditional rites, and treat the "Holy Spirit" as if "He" were some personal commodity of their ownan idea which no minister within the Church would entertain and one which blasphemes the Sovereign Spirit, Who is our True God.]

To sum up: there is no Scriptural evidence that anyone can impart the Holy Spirit by physical methods into the soul of a believer who is already indwelt by the Spirit. Benny Hinn, Rodney Howard-Browne and their imitators have embraced an unScriptural practice which has degraded the Holy Spirit from being the sovereign and almighty God into a mere electrical force or power that they can automatically channel into people.

(ii) Remember we are looking at the difference between TB and a true Christian experience of God's love. The first difference is that in true Christian experience, the Holy Spirit is not channeled into our souls like some spiritual force by physical means such as touch. The second difference is that a true Christian experience of God's love comes by means of the truth. The Holy Spirit works in and through and by means of the truth. Let's go back to Romans 5:5, and also read the next three verses. Notice how after Paul says that God's love is poured into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, he immediately goes on to say that God's love has been demonstrated or made known to us by the death of Christ. God commends His love to us in this, that while we were sinners Christ died for us. So when the Holy Spirit fills our hearts with this wonderful sense of God's love, it is not some instant zap experience that bypasses the mind. What the Holy Spirit does is to bring home to our minds this great truth, that Christ died for us; He takes that truth and impresses it upon our minds, giving us a clear and vivid spiritual understanding of it; and by that means He fills us with a wonderful sense and feeling of how much God loves us. Our experience of God's love is a response to the revealed truth of God's love. The Spirit of God works through the Word of God; true spiritual emotions and experiences arise out of God's Word, as our minds are opened up by the Holy Spirit to see and grasp and understand the Word.

Let's consider some verses that show the centrality and importance of the mind, the truth and the Word of God in imparting life, blessing and sanctification to the believer:

The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul; the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes (Ps. 19:7-9).

It is the Spirit Who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words I speak to you, they are spirit and they are life (St. John 6:63).

You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free (St. John 8:32).

Sanctify them by the truth; Your Word is truth (St. John 17:17).

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the Word of God which lives and abides for ever (1 Peter 1:22-3).

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of truth... The anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him (1 John 2:20-21 & 27).

These verses show that the Holy Spirit does not bypass the truth or short-circuit our understandings when he works in us, sanctifies us, awakens holy emotions, or brings us into fellowship with God. The Spirit works through the truth, through the Word, teaches us, enlightens our minds with true understanding, and in that way kindles and awakens genuine spiritual feelings and experiences.

Jonathan Edwards [a renowned American Protestant theologian, 1703-58note supplied by the author] makes this point with great force in his Treatise Concerning Religious Affections:

Holy affections are not heat without light; but everymore arise from some information of the understanding, some spiritual instruction that the mind receives, some light of actual knowledge. The child of God is graciously affected, because he sees and understands something more of divine things than he did before, more of God or Christ, and of the glorious things exhibited in the gospel. He has a clearer and better view than he had before, when he was not affected; either he receives some new understanding of divine things, or has his former knowledge renewed after his view was decayed. [Edwards then quotes 1 John 4:7, Philippians 1:9, Romans 10:2, Colossians 3:10, Psalm 43:3-4, and St. John 6:45 to prove his point] Knowledge is the key that first opens the hard heart, enlarges the affections, and opens the way for men into the kingdom of heaven; Luke 11:52, "Ye have taken away the key of knowledge." Now there are many affections which do not arise from any light of understanding; which is a sure evidence that these affections are not spiritual, let them be ever so high. [7]

What Edwards warns against here is what we see going on in the TB. Here, the Holy Spirit supposedly works without truth as His instrument. He directly zaps people into a state of joy or peace or feeling loved. But there is no truth involved; there is no enlightenment of the mind to understand truth. Truth is bypassed in favour of this instant zap experience. So the emotions and experiences that arise are not a response to truth, but a mindless explosion of feeling that has no basis in truth, or in a mind being enlightened to understand the truth. This is not the way that the Holy Spirit works; this mindless spirituality is not Biblical. The mark of true Biblical spirituality is that it flows out of the truth and is based on a proper understanding of truth. Our Christian feelings and experiences come to us in response to the truth, as that truth is found in God's Word, and as the Holy Spirit applies it to us with sanctifying power. That is why preaching and teaching are so important in the life of the Church. And that is why preaching and teaching have so little place in the TB. Truth to them is not important. The all-important thing is the instant zap experience. That is why it does not bother most of them that the TB originated in the dreadful heresies of the Faith Movement. That doesn't matter, because truth is not what is important to them; what matters is the feelings, the joy, the mindless experience. This is directly opposed to genuine Christian spirituality.

These facts sap the credibility of all the claims we hear of Christians being spiritually renewed by the TB to a deeper holiness. The kind of experiences we have been examining could not renew anyone to true holiness. They might (for a time) make someone more aggressive and confident in whatever beliefs he already held, whether Christian or not. And therefore it might lead to more religious activity—more praying, more Bible studying, more evangelising. But these things are not convincing proof of authentic growth in holiness. Where is the increased reverence for God? The chaotic clowning of the TB is calculated to destroy, not promote, reverence. Where is the submission to Scripture? Studying the Bible is not the same as submitting to it. Jehovah's Witnesses study it. But where has any TB advocate shown a willingness to submit his experiences to Scripture? I would also have to add, from personal encounters and conversations, that the claims to spiritual renewal made by the TB seem grossly hyped-up to the point of fantasy, if not deception. None of my friends who have been zapped display the slightest noticeable increase in holiness. And I have heard too many stories of people's moral and spiritual experience actually suffering sharp reverses after receiving the TB. The only fruit of the TB in a friend of mine in Kent was that she started to hear inner voices telling her to kill herself. (She has now renounced the TB and joined a non-TB church.) So let us not be taken in by these overblown TB claims to spiritual renewal. Like claims to instantaneous and perfect miraculous healing, few if any of them will stand up to careful Scriptural scrutiny.

At this point it is worth saying that many defend TB experiences, even the most bizarre and degrading ones, by appealing to the words of the Lord Jesus Christ in Luke 11:11-13:

Which of you fathers, if a son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks an egg, will he give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him.

The argument is that TB experiences must come from God, because He would not allow His children to receive false experiences when they ask Him for the Holy Spirit. But this argument really cuts no ice. What exactly are people desiring or asking for or expecting in a TB meeting? The answer is, a certain experience. In their own minds they have identified the Holy Spirit with certain types of experience, usually involving physical manifestations, So when an anointed leader "calls down the Holy Spirit," what he means is that he wants certain experiences and manifestations now to take place in the meeting. This is what people are "asking God for." The very asking, in other words, takes it for granted that the various emotional and physical experiences of the TB are the Holy Spirit at work. But we have seen many reasons to think otherwise. This kind of "asking the Father for the Spirit" is therefore a religious delusion from the very outset. It is therefore not very surprising those who open themselves up to the Spirit," on that false understanding that he will manifest His power through a certain experience, then undergo that false experience. Why did god not protect His child from the counterfeit experience? Because the child was already deceived. Well, we ourselves have the personal responsibility to test the spirits (1 John 4:1). If we do not carry out that responsibility by searching the Scriptures carefully and submissively, and testing everything against what Scripture clearly teaches, we cannot blame God if we then fall into deception and bogus experiences. That would be like blaming God for not protecting us against electrocution if we fooled about trying to fix a generator, without carefully studying the technical manual. Editor's note: essentially Orthodox teachers would reiterate what our author says in this paragraph, however, they would say that he does not go far enough and would doubtless insist on a more careful testing of the spirits, not only in the light of "what Scripture clearly teaches," (which, as we can see from the example of the misuse of the Lord's words from Luke 11:11-13, can also he "clearly" misinterpreted too), but by also applying scriptural teaching in the light of Holy Tradition and, if at all possible, by taking advice from a spiritual director.]

3. Hypnotic forces

We've seen, then, that in the TB we are dealing with a non-Christian form of spirituality which leads people into feelings and experiences which they could equally well have had in the New Age movement, or indeed in Hinduism, Zen Buddhism, Transcendental Meditation, or a dozen other varieties of Eastern mysticism. Now let's ask ourselves what it is that causes these mindless experiences of joy, peace and love, and the physical manifestations that go along with them, the falling over, the hysterical laughter, etc. The first thing that can undoubtedly cause many of these experiences is the power of hypnotism hypnotic influence. In the magazine, The Briefing, Tony Payne lists the following experiences undergone by people who receive the TB:

Tony Payne then comments: "all of these phenomena are also well documented as being the common results of hypnosis. Subjects undergoing mass hypnosis regularly exhibit precisely these manifestations, sometimes by autosuggestion and sometimes spontaneously." [8] So here we have what seems to be one possible source of many of these experiences—hypnotic power and influence. It has been known for centuries that hypnotism can generate these experiences. Hypnotism is sometimes called Mesmerism, after Franz Mesmer, an Austrian doctor and faith-healer who flourished in France in the 1780's. He was in many ways the founder of modern Western hypnotism. Here is a description of one of Mesmer's meetings:

Mesmer marched about majestically in a pale lilac robe, passing his hands over the patients' bodies and touching them with a long iron wand. The results varied. Some patients felt nothing at all, some felt as if insects were crawling over them, others were seized with hysterical laughter, convulsions or fits of hiccups. Some went into raving delirium, which was called 'The Crisis' and was considered extremely healthful. [9]

A royal commission was appointed to investigate Mesmer's activities; the commission was composed of members of the Royal Society of Medicine and the Faculty of Medicine of the Academy of Sciences. In their report, the commission concluded that "man can act upon man at any time, and almost at will, by striking his imagination; that the simplest gestures and signs can have the most powerful effects; and that the actions of man upon the imagination may be reduced to an art, and conducted with method, upon subjects who have faith." [10]

The most effective of the "anointed men" like Benny Hinn and Rodney Howard-Browne are arguably nothing more than Christianised hypnotists, who have reduced their Mesmeric practices to an art, and conduct it with method, upon subjects who have faith. As a result, their simplest gestures and signs can have the most powerful effects, and they can act on others almost at will by striking their imaginations. We can see this hypnotic element at work through the various "warm-up" techniques used by Benny Hinn, Rodney Howard-Browne and others in their meetings, to soften people into the right emotional frame of mind: lots of repetitive chorus singing, emotionally seductive music, getting people to hold their hands up in the air for a long time or to stare into each other's eyes, all geared to breaking down people's inhibitions and rational self-control. Then there is the all-important psychological climate of expectancy; people expect something to happen—they expect the Spirit to work, they expect to fall over and so on when Benny or Rodney touch them. So we can account for much that goes on simply through the psychological forces of hypnotism and mesmerism.

4. Physical power points

Another source of these experiences is found in Eastern religions and New Age spirituality, and that is the concept that there are various points in the human body where a mysterious energy is concentrated. This energy can be unleashed by those who know how to, simply by touching the power points of the body. I was in a New Age bookshop in London recently where they were selling a beautiful coloured diagram of the human body showing the power points. The main one is the middle of the forehead, known in Eastern religion as "the third eye." A Hindu master or guru will often transmit a Hindu spiritual blessing to his disciples by touching them on the third eye, with the result that the disciple will fall over. Interestingly, this is often where TB gurus touch their disciples, with the same result. Other power points are the top of the head, the top of the chest, the belly and the base of the spine. Again it is interesting that when Rodney Howard-Browne can't get someone to fall over by touching their forehead, he will sometimes touch their belly and the base of their spine at the same time. It looks as if he is hugging them, but in reality he is touching these two power points. Leigh Belcham tells how this touching of power points happened to him in Toronto:

[H]ands were placed on my forehead, and then my abdomen and chest were massaged while the one praying repeated "More, more!" and "Drink, drink!" [11]

The question, of course, is, what is really happening here? Does the human body really have these power points which some people can tap into to activate by some sort of natural ability? Or is this ultimately a supernatural demonic power? Whichever way we take it, there is certainly no basis in Scripture for the idea that true spiritual blessing can be received by tapping into cosmic power points on the human body. This may be good eastern mysticism and New Age spirituality, but it is not Biblical Christianity.

5. Demonic influences

Finally, let us look at some aspects of the TB which it is difficult to explain in terms of hypnotic power. I want us to consider two testimonies by people who received the TB. The first is a man called Mick Brown. He went to Toronto and attended a meeting led by John Arnott, pastor of the Toronto Airport Vineyard. Here is Mick Brown's testimony:

A body came falling towards me. I rested it on the ground and moved on. I found myself beside John Arnott, who was moving through the crowd, blessing people, who fell like ninepins. I didn't even see his hand coming as it arched through the air and touched me gently—hardly at all—on the forehead. "And bless this one, Lord...." I could feel a palpable shock running through me, then I was falling backwards, as if my legs had been kicked away from underneath me. I hit the floor—I swear this is the truth—laughing like a drain. [12]

The interesting thing about that testimony is that Mick Brown is not a Christian. He is an unconverted Daily Telegraph journalist who went to Toronto to write a report on the TB for the Daily Telegraph magazine, from which the above quotation is taken. Yet when John Arnott touches him, Mick Brown experiences exactly the same phenomena as all the professing believers. He is slain in the Spirit and laughs hysterically. Later he told a Christian newspaper that his experience had made no difference to his unbelief in Christianity. He was and still is an unbeliever. So we have the same physical and emotional experience, the same TB, but the person undergoing it is not a Christian. This prompts us to ask two questions. First, how can this be the Holy Spirit at work? Does He bestow the same emotional and physical experience on believer and unbeliever alike—slaying in the Spirit, uncontrollable laughter, a state of euphoria? If these things had no spiritual meaning or significance in the life of the non-Christian Mick Brown, how can precisely the same things have any authentic spiritual meaning or significance in the lives of professing Christians? Clearly we are dealing with an experience which is not truly spiritual in nature, but can be happily shared by believers and unbelievers alike.

Second question: What is the power that John Arnott has to induce this experience in a non-Christian who has absolutely no belief that the TB is a work of God, since he does not even believe in God? It is difficult to believe that this can be hypnotism working on a suggestible mind. Mick Brown had not participated in any of the warm-up techniques of the worship, and had no expectation that anything would happen to him. Yet John Arnott touches him, quite by accident, and down he goes. This seems to point us in the direction of John Arnott and others like him actually possessing a real supernatural power. And if it is not the power of the Holy Spirit, it must be the power of an evil spirit.

The second testimony I want to consider is that of Glenda Waddell, a member of staff at Holy Trinity Brompton, the Anglican church in London which acts as the British headquarters of the TB. Here is Ms Waddell's testimony of how she first received the TB:

[T]o my absolute horror I just knew beyond any shadow of doubt my hands were doing strange things and I was going to roar. I said, "Oh Lord, IT do anything but please, please, don't make me roar. Only the men roar and the women don't roar." But it came and I did roar quite loudly and I made a lot of awful noise and I was crawling around the floor doing terrible things and half of me was thinking, "This cannot be me." But another part of me knew that it was. [13]

The disturbing thing about Ms Waddell's testimony is that it presents us with a picture of the Holy Spirit supposedly at work which makes it painfully clear that it was not the Holy Spirit at work. By her own account, Ms Waddell was invaded and possessed by a power which reduced her to bestial behaviour, crawling around and roaring. Half of her did not even recognize herself in what was happening. There was no use of the mind involved in Ms Waddell's experience whatsoever. She was simply taken over, physically and spiritually, by a controlling force. That is not how the Holy Spirit works in a believer's life. He does not sanctify us by possessing us like a demon and forcing us to do weird, sub-human things. He works through the Word of God, bringing truth to bear upon our minds, enlightening our understanding and persuading us to obey. But in Ms Waddell's case, the thing she calls the Holy Spirit came at her like a predatory beast, seized her, possessed her, and forced her to roar and crawl about like a lion. Surely anyone with any spiritual discernment must see that this dark force was not the Holy Spirit. So what was it? Hypnotic influence? Possibly; but to me it sounds more like some real objective spiritual power that temporarily took over this unfortunate lady. Her experience is a chilling reminder of Swami Baba Muktananda's "roaring like a lion" under the influence of the demongoddess Chiti (see above—The Shepherd, volume XVI, number 4, January 1996, page 6). I do not believe that true Christians can be actually possessed by demons; but if demons can deceive us into thinking that they are the Holy Spirit, and on that basis can get us to open up to their influence, we can be seized upon and influenced by demonic power, at least temporarily. It is quite possible that this is going on alongside the hypnotic forces that are at work in the TB. [Here again Dr Needham 's beliefs about possession are somewhat at variance with Orthodox spiritual experience, but his main thesis is sound. Contrast for instance, the experience of Ms. Waddell cited above, with the dialogue of the Mother of God with the Archangel Gabriel at the Annunciation, which is recorded in St Luke's Gospel, and wherein the Virgin tests the experience and willingly gives her consent, "Behold the handmaiden of the Lord, be it unto me according to thy word" (Luke 1:38)—Ed.]

6. Summary and conclusion

I would suggest that we can account for the TB by a combination of hypnotic power and influence, and supernatural demonic power. To keep ourselves safe against such deceptive movement, we need a true understanding of how the Holy Spirit works in the believer; and Scripture leads us to the conclusion that He works through the Word of God, through the truth, and that the first point of contact that the Spirit uses in us is our minds, our understandings. We must therefore reject all so-called spiritual experiences that by-pass or short-circuit the mind, or are not produced by the spiritual application of truth to the mind and heart. We must make sure that we have a spirituality that gives a prominent place to our minds, to understanding the truth, and we must make sure that Scripture is central in our relationship with God, and also in our worship of God, through the preaching and teaching of God's word. Isaiah [Esaias] 8:20: "To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this Word, it is because there is no light in them."

Endnotes

1. HTB in Focus, October 9th, 1994, p. 12.

2. What in the World is Happening to Us, p. 1.

3. Radio 4 documentary The Second Coming, 9/4/92

4. Banner of Truth, May 1995, p. 19

5. Testimony of former Muktananda disciple Joy Smith, in Focus magazine 12, winter 1994/5.

6. Quoted by Tal Brooke, Riders of the Cosmic Circuit, p. 45.

7. Works of Edwards, Banner of Truth edition, vol. 1, pp. 281-2; emphasis added.

8. The Briefing 152, pp 5-6.

9. Richard Cavendish, The Magical Arts, p.180.

10. R.B.Ince, Three Famous Occultists, pp 107-8.

11. Toronto: The Baby or the Bathwater? p. 8.

12. Daily Telegraph magazine, 3rd December, 1994.

13. HTB in Focus, October 9th, 1994, p.12.

This originally appeared in The Shepherd in three parts from December 1995 (Vol. XVI, No. 3) to February 1996 (Vol XVI, No. 5). For a more thorough critique of Pentecostalism and the Charismatic Movement from an Orthodox perspective see: Gerald T. Sheppard, "The Nicean Creed, Filioque, and Pentecostal Movements in the United States," Greek Orthodox Theological Review, vol. 31, No. 3-4 (1986), pp. 401-416, along with "The Holy Spirit Consultation: A Summary Statement," on pp. 417-427; John Warren Morris, "The Charismatic Movement: An Orthodox Evaluation," Greek Orthodox Theological Review, Vol. 28, No. 2 (1983), pp. 103-134. See also (Rose), Fr. Seraphim, Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future (St. Herman of Alaska Brotherhood, 1996), pp. 115-168.

17 posted on 10/11/2010 4:41:44 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

I know of a nearby Vineyard Church. Are all the Vineyard Churches part of this movement?


18 posted on 10/11/2010 4:49:00 PM PDT by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
FLAWS.

Talk about people who have lost contact with the Head, which is Christ.
19 posted on 10/11/2010 4:49:03 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

they mix up Kali and Mary.

Satan always mimics and twists what is good.

The Pentecostals need a spirit of discernment...which is alas lacking in many churches.


20 posted on 10/11/2010 5:01:18 PM PDT by LadyDoc (liberals only love politically correct poor people)
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