Frowning takes 68 muscles.
Smiling takes 6.
Pulling this trigger takes 2.
I'm lazy.
Posted on 10/14/2010 6:07:34 AM PDT by Colofornian
Human communication with the dead, or necromancy, is never encouraged in the Bible and is always condemned (1 Samuel 15:23, 28:6ff). Such a practice was punishable by death (1 Samuel 28:9) in theocratic Israel. Despite these grave warnings, many temple Mormons look forward with great anticipation to possibly being visited by spirits of the dead. In fact, there are a number of recorded sightings of alleged dead spirits who have visited Mormons in LDS temples.
Prior to the dedication of the San Diego temple in 1993, local Mormon families were given a packet entitled Family Temple Preparation Material. Included in this written material were about seven pages devoted to "true stories" of temple patrons who were visited by the dead.
Fourth Mormon Prophet Wilford Woodruff told followers in 1887, "The dead will be after you, they will seek after you as they have after us in St. George (Journal of Discourses 19:229). Woodruff is referring to the St. George temple in southern Utah. He also stated, “I will here say that two weeks before I left St. George, the spirits of the dead gathered around me, wanting to know why we did not redeem them. Said they, "You have had the use of the Endowment House for a number of years, and yet nothing has ever been done for us. We laid the foundation of the government you now enjoy, and we never apostatized from it, but we remained true to it and were faithful to God. These were the signers of the Declaration of Independence, and they waited on me for two days and two nights” (The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, p.160).
In his book entitled Temple Manifestations, Mormon writer Joseph Heinerman lists several accounts of dead spirits visiting patrons in LDS temples. Such encounters are never condoned by the Bible and as such, should be shunned rather than encouraged.
I guess they were expecting a re-haunting from the previous '90s:
1890s(April-->May, 1893): The Haunting of the Salt Lake City Temple opening
Official Mormon church sources claim that when they opened their temple in the Spring of 1893, "Some Latter-day Saints saw...past Presidents of the Church and other ceceased Church leaders." (Our Heritage: A Brief History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1996, p. 102)
I live in Utah, and have heard about this type of stuff happening quite a bit in the LDS Temple...very creepy.
My thought is, these people are not seeing their dead relatives, but demons or some other such thing. The Bible seems to imply that the dead cannot reach us. Remember the Rich Man and Lazerus (sp)? The Rich Man wanted to go and reach his brothers to warn them about Hell, but was told that a “great casim (sp)” was fixed and he could not cross it to warn his brothers.
What makes the LDS Temple particularly creepy are all of the occultic sysmbols adorning the stone work and other parts of the exterior. They have inverted pentagrams, Saturn Stomes, Moon Stones, an All seeing eye, and on one wall, the Ursus Major “The Big Dipper” constellation. Yet not one symbol that’s associated with The Lord Jesus can be found: Cross, Fish, Lamb etc.
Joseph Smith was brilliant in making it so later “revelations” overruled Scripture, so any contradictions could be waved away. It’s also funny that the current LDS doesn’t even follow Joseph Smith’s words.
I only know of one person who has seen a passed relative. I haven’t but I do believe it is possible. You may believe differently. Have a lovely day.
I also understand that they starve children, rape the rain-forest, build glass ceilings, burn churches in the south, blow holes in the ozone, want sick people to die quickly, and are racists.
Well....that's what I heard.
To my knowledge, no other religion is quite as obsessed with the dead as mormonism. Millions of hours are spent in searching records for names of dead to be submitted to temple workers, who spend millions of hours doing proxy baptism and arcane masonic rituals on "behalf of the dead" with the belief that the dead will "choose" to accept these rites and the firm conviction that the dead are in a position to actually MAKE such choices.
While Catholics are known for "praying" for the souls of the dead, there is no requirement for proxy work by the living in an attempt to convert the souls of the dead.
Boyd K. Packer, “The Redemption of the Dead,” Ensign, Nov. 1975, 97
"On October 3, 1918, President Joseph F. Smith was pondering on the scriptures, including this one from Peter: “For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” (1 Pet. 4:6.)
There was opened to him a marvelous vision. In it he saw the concourses of the righteous. And he saw Christ ministering among them. Then he saw those who had not had the opportunity, and those who had not been valiant. And he saw the work for their redemption. And I quote his record of this vision:
“I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them; but behold, from among the righteous he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men. And thus was the gospel preached to the dead.” (“Vision of the Redemption of the Dead,” The Utah Genealogical and Historical Magazine, Jan. 1919, p. 3.) http://books.google.com/books?id=u78UAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA5&ots=3gm4eYOMw4&dq=Vision+of+the+Redemption+of+the+Dead+1919&output=html
We have been authorized to perform baptisms vicariously so that when they hear the gospel preached and desire to accept it, that essential ordinance will have been performed. They need not ask for any exemption from that essential ordinance. Indeed, the Lord Himself was not exempted from it."
FR thread on "The Redemption of the Dead"
I think the entire article is well worth reading for a disturbing description by a mormon leader of the baptism for the dead
The author misstates the meaning of necromancy. Here is how Merriam-Webster defines the term:
necromancy n 1 : the art or practice of conjuring up the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future 2 : MAGIC, SORCERYMormons do not practice necromancy. We do not "summon up" the dead for any purpose.
I have read a number of accounts about dead persons (usually relatives) appearing and communicating to living Latter-day Saints. Such appearances are extraordinary; they occur only as God permits them. I know of no case in which the living person conjured up the dead person.
Such encounters are never condoned by the Bible and as such, should be shunned rather than encouraged.
Tell that to Jesus, who spoke with two dead prophets, Moses and Elias, on the Mount of Transfiguration:
28 ¶ And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.
33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said. (Luke 9:28-33)
Not only did Jesus talk to two dead men, but they spoke of the future!
If the spirits of the dead came to Jesus, and He spoke with them, it cannot be wrong.
“The Bible seems to imply that the dead cannot reach us.”
Well, that certainly seems true, except when it isn’t (See Luke 9:28-36).
In Luke 9:32 Peter and other disciples saw two deceased, Moses and Elijah, standing with Jesus: “But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.”
Necromancers actively seek contact with spirits of the deceased, whereas Mormons going to the temple (or anywhere else) are not instructed to ever summon the spirits of the deceased. There’s a difference between actively trying to summon a spirit versus being passively aware of a spirit or angel that is appearing to you in a dream or vision.
It took me so long to reply I didn’t see your reply first! That was exactly what I was talking about!
How could there possibly be any evidence showing that someone did or did not, communicate with dead people?
Is it the attempt or the looking forward to communicating, that people are really being condemned for?
[ I do Genealogy and the LDS website has a lot of information on it. I began to notice that a lot of my family tree was listed there. I’m talking even my father who died 8 years ago. All of this information was submitted by a person no one in the family knows. Seriously, someone told me that the Mormons keep excellent genealogy records because they believe we are all LDS and related and that they can “rebaptise” all of us after death, which they have done to those in the genealogy registry. Is this true? The Catholic half of my family and the baptist/congregational/Methodist other side would not be happy if in the after life the found out they were rebaptised as Mormons! Trust me, my father might even get thrown out of heaven by his reaction! I have nothing against Mormons but don’t like this practice if true. ]
One good thing about this is after civilisation falls they will have records of such things.....
Understood, but my point was, why are so many “dead people” seen in the LDS Temple?
When one factors in the amount of occultic symbols on the outside of the Temple, and NOT ONE symbol associated with the Lord Jesus, is it surprsing at the number of reported “dead people” who are seen roaming the LDS Temple?
I don’t think so.
“The Catholic half of my family and the baptist/congregational/Methodist other side would not be happy if in the after life the found out they were rebaptised as Mormons!”
The Mormon teaching on this is that Free Will (referred to by Mormons as Agency) overides everything else. Any baptism is without any effect whatsoever unless it is accepted by the one in whose behalf the vicarious baptism is performed. As strange as the practice may seem, it is actually biblical and is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:29: “Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?” St. Paul was trying to make a point here that the dead shall be raised (resurrection), and he refers to the practice of baptism in behalf of the dead to support his argument that people will be resurrected. Paul, a true scholar in doctrinal issues, is possibly the least likely of all the disciples to ever use a false practice to argue in support of something so dear to him, namely the resurrection of the dead through the power of Christ.
“is it surprsing at the number of reported “dead people” who are seen roaming the LDS Temple”
Wow, you make it sound like a real frightfest. I haven’t been to the temple in several years, and I do not currently have a temple recommend. But I can tell you that I never saw a spirit when I did go there, and no else that I know ever has either (or at least they didn’t tell me if they did). This leads me to believe that angelic or spiritual appearances, although they have been noted, are quite uncommon.
Nah...
We get WET for dead people!
--MormonDude(Praise the Restored® Gospel!)
Anahiem
San DeigoI've 'heard' that there are 'ghosts' near that FIRST picture; too!
Well; other than them Reformed Egyptians...
Oh my!! Are those satanic steeples?!! Was Walt a satan worshipper?
|
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>>I only know of one person who has seen a passed relative. I haven’t but I do believe it is possible.<<
In the Bible we find that communicating with the dead is an abomination. Deuteronomy 18 would be one place.
Here's the deal. A number of Mormon published books have emphasized manifestations of the supposed dead, without having any qualifications as to whether that spirit was actually the one belonging to thad dead person, or was a demonic spirit masquerading as a deceased relative.
I mean, come on Logo. Who has special "training" in this kind of discernment? And the New Testament says to "test the spirits." In the many Mormon accounts I've seen, did anybody "test these spirits" to rule out demonic activity. I haven't seen those precautions taken.
I'm speaking of:
* Mormon John Heinerman's book, Temple Manifestations.
* Mormon author Duane Crowther's book, Life Everlasting. (Bookcraft) Both have a lot of these manifestations all presented in a "positive" way.
I'm also speaking of the dozens of accounts re: Wilford Woodruff and the St. George temple. This account makes it into the Lds curricula wholly unqualified. Same with D&C 138 where dead relatives appear to Joseph F. Smith. This has even become Mormon "scripture" 50 years after it happened.
These accounts even make it into the syllabus of BYU courses...like Religious Education C261, Introduction to LDS Family History (Genealogy), where they speak of manifestations of supposed dead spirits.
While indeed most of these accounts don't initially involve Mormons initiating contact with these "spirits..." The reality seems to be that...
(1) By Mormon leaders sanctioning the dead appearing to their members as something "spiritual," they encourage such contact even if the examples they use are ones where the Mormons are on the receiving side.
(2) It's possible that Mormons, although not initiating contact the first time, perhaps have done so on ensuing occasions.
In Crowther's book, Life Everlasting (see footnote 41 of that book), he quotes Mitt Romney ancestor Parley P. Pratt as saying: "...we frequently hold communication with our departed father, mother, brother, sister, son or daughter; or with the former husband or wife of our bosom..."
When you look at Crowther's book, Life Everlasting, Crowther says on pp. 249-250 that these are "good spirits" who "return to earth and converse with Mormons." How does Crowther know that's the case across the board?
Crowther goes on to claim "seven reasons" for why these "spirits" communicate with Mormons:
1. give counsel
2. give comfort
3. obtain or give information
4. serve as guardian angels
5. prepare others for death
6. summon mortals into the spirit world
7. escort the dying through the veil of death
Source: Crowther, Life Everlasting, Bookcraft, 1988, pp. 249-250
According to John Ankerberg and John Weldon, "Such teaching is in complete harmony with the teachings of mediums and spiritists everywhere. Indeed, on these points it is impossible to distinguish Mormon practice from general spiritism." (The Facts on the Mormon Church by John Ankerberg, John Weldon,& Dillon Burroughs 1991/2009 Harvest House, p. 73)
Well golly since your translation says so I’ll alert all the other denominations.
Yes, it's true. They re-baptize non-Mormons by what they call "proxy" -- somebody else vicariously receiving the Mormon baptism in the hidden Mormon temple religious ceremonies.
The occultic theme is prominently connected re: the Mormon temple and its baptizing dead people. A follow-up Lds "prophet" -- Joseph F. Smith -- claimed over 90 years ago years ago this month to see the hosts of the dead, both small and great...an innumerable company of the spirits of the just (D&C 138:11-12) -- and these spirits were just waiting for Mormon missionaries to come their way to be redeemed via such re-baptizing...
JF Smith said that the Mormon jesus had prepared "the faithful spirits of the prophets who had testified of him in the flesh; That they might carry the message of redemption unto all the dead, unto whom he could not go personally, because of their rebellion and transgression, that they through the ministration of his servants might also hear his words. (D&C 138:37-38)
These demonic manifestations seem to love October...when JF Smith received them and treated them as ghostly spirits...
And then almost 50 years later, the Mormon church decided Smith's manifestations was on the same level as "scripture" -- so they added it to their "scripture" book.
Do you have another translation that says otherwise. . . . didn't think so.
>> If the spirits of the dead came to Jesus, and He spoke with them, it cannot be wrong.<<
First off, Elijah never died.
Second, Moses died prior to Jesus death and resurrection. Everything changed after the resurrection. Jesus being truly God had powers and privileges that those of us who are only human do not.
Jesus also went down to Sheol after His death on the cross. Would you suggest that is also something available to us mere humans?
Mormons are incorrect. They have usurped this verse and taken it out of context. So, let’s examine 1 Cor. 15 briefly so we can see what Paul is talking about when he mentions baptism for the dead.
In verses 1-19, the fact of Christ’s resurrection is detailed by Paul. Beginning in verse 20 and going through verse 23, Paul speaks about the order of the resurrection. Christ was the first one raised - in a glorified body - and next will be those who are His at His return. Verses 24 - 29 then mention Christ’s reign and the abolition of death. This is when this controversial verse occurs: “Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?”
Just north of Corinth was a city named Eleusis. This was the location of a pagan religion where baptism in the sea was practiced to guarantee a good afterlife. This religion was mentioned by Homer in Hymn to Demeter 478-79.1 The Corinthians were known to be heavily influenced by other customs. After all, they were in a large economic area where a great many different people frequented. It is probable that the Corinthians were being influenced by the religious practices found at Eleusis where baptism for the dead was practiced.
Paul used this example from the pagans in 1 Cor. 15:29, when he said, “...if the dead are not raised, then why are they baptized for the dead?” Paul did not say we.2
This is significant because the Christian church was not practicing baptism for the dead, but the pagans were.
In post #8 you gave a Webster definition of Necromancy. That's a limited definition that doesn't cover all the usages of the word.
For one thing it places the emphasis on telling or divining the future. But the Greek word from which "mancy" comes is manteia, which also means "prophesy." And prophesy is both foretelling the future AND forthtelling the present. (See p. 132 of Brewer's online book: re: Biblemancy entry on p. 132): Manteia Greek word for Mancy
And you'll see at this Web site how "mancy" is used for both divination and prophesy: Types of 'Mancy'
The other aspect of Webster's definition is that it always puts the ball in the summoner's court -- that they conjure up a spirit. You'll see in Isaiah 8:19 that another word for "seek" (King James word) is "consult": 19 When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?
After consultants have taken the initiation to introduce themselves, sometimes those who use them take the initiative. And even then, let's say we could say with certainty that such spirit consultants assumed the initiative 100% of the time, so what?
Review post #27 again, and then ask yourself, what would it matter if these consultants were the 100% initiators? The bottom line would be the same: You've got Mormons consulting the dead for information, for comfort, for counsel, for guidance, etc. -- even if we agreed that these consultants were the iniators. We have hundreds of Mormon incidents where they have consulted the dead -- even if don't use terms like "summon" or "conjure" to describe the dynamics of what occurred.
Responsive consultations -- demons acting as ghosts -- is not exactly any behavior any church trying to associate with the name of Jesus Christ should be actively promoting, which the Mormon church is doing.
True. And Jesus spoke to Moses before the resurrection.
It would be absurd to accuse Jesus of practicing necromancy when He spoke with Moses. Yet the article at the beginning of this thread treats necromancy as communication with the dead and hints that Mormons practice necromancy. As I pointed out in Post 8, neither is correct.
Jesus also went down to Sheol after His death on the cross. Would you suggest that is also something available to us mere humans?
Since Sheol means "the grave" or "realm of the dead" (and is so translated in the NIV), I would say that every human who dies will go down to Sheol. (That includes almost all of us.) Thankfully, because of Jesus Christ, all will come out of the grave again.
Well, it’s in large font with many colors and long Scripture passages, so it MUST be true! ;)
Funny, I heard the same about Buddhists. ;)
Joseph Smith was brilliant in making it so later “revelations” overruled Scripture, so any contradictions could be waved away. It’s also funny that the current LDS doesn’t even follow Joseph Smith’s words.
___________________________________________________________
Exactly correct!
Just try quoting the “King Follet Discourse” or the “Journal of Discourses” to an LDS member, and they really get uncomfortable.
I remember Gordon Hinckley refuted the idea that LDS believe they will become gods. He said: “I’m not sure that we believe that...”
Just wow!
>>I would say that every human who dies will go down to Sheol.<<
You are right to a point. Sheol had several layers and the words translated had separate meanings. There was the physical grave which the early Israelites misinterpreted as the only place. The other words which were translated Sheol and Hades meant a place or realm for the spirit prior to Jesus resurrection. The spirits of faithful Israelites were in a “holding place” which have become known as Sheol, Hades, or purgatory. That place was abolished upon Jesus resurrection.
I do!!
< Shake their hand and feel for BONES!!!
http://nowscape.com/mormon/handshake.htm
So; are you alerted?
Be alert; for world needs MORE lerts!
They ARE?
Who knew!
LOL Had to get your attention some how!
Gee, Logo...don't mormons believe their Jesus MAY just kinda, sorta be a wee bit "speshul"? Like, maybe he had a few powers that set Him above the reg'lar run of the mill mormon elder?
Mormon leaders from Joseph Smith on down have claimed to be visited by various "dead people", the Founding Fathers coming to mind. Is that the concept then....what's good for Jesus cannot be wrong for just any old mortal man?
On further thought, the way Joseph Smith has been idolized would certainly lead to that perception.
"Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah..."
ALL: Actually, that's Joseph Smith's advice. Is that you can "test" the nature of a spirit by the handshake ... oh, and by the color of his hair!!!
Smith claimed (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 214-215) to be able to "distinguish" between a "good" angel and a "bad" with this "spiritually offered" discernment: "By the color of his hair; that is one of the signs that he can be known by..."
(It's a "good thing" to know that a demon can't deceive a Mormon thru dying his hair or something like that)
And then, as Elsie said, the handshake.
Lds author Duane Crowther said: "These are the spirits for whom the handshake test of Doctrine and Covenants, section 129, applies." (Life Everlasting, Bookcraft, 1988, p. 247)
And what does this Mormon "scripture" say about shaking hands to discern spirits?
D&C 129:1-9:
1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—...
3 Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory.
4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you.
5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.
6 If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear—
7 Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive; but he will still deliver his message.
8 If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him.
9 These are three grand keys whereby you may know whether any administration is from God.
Bottom-line, Smith had ZERO discernment on how to tell the difference between a demon masquerading as a ghost (Moroni), and a true angel.
Fact is that Mormons have openly welcomed communication from the spirits and the supposed dead. And they think because they have been given a "priesthood," that they cannot be deceived.
John Weldon and John Ankerberg, in their book, The Facts on the Mormon Church by Harvest House, 1991/2009, pp. 69-70, noted:
A sermon delivered by Elder Parley Pratt in 1853 (five years after the celebrated spiritist movement began in America) indicates early Mormon acceptance of Joseph Smith as a 'divine' medium. Jesus Christ was given the role of a spiritistic mediator, and spiritism was to be practiced in the Mormon temple. Pratt gloried in Joseph Smith's role in receiving the Book of Mormon from a spirit:
Ankerberg and Weldon quoted Parley P. Pratt, the great-great grandfather of Mitt Romney: Who communicated with our great modern Prophet, and revealed through him as a medium, the ancient history of the hemisphere, and the records of the ancient dead? Moroni, who had lived 1400 years before...Who instructed him in the mysteries of the kingdom?...Angels and spirits from the eternal worlds...conversations and correspondence with...spirits, shall be had only in the sanctuary of His holy temple on the earth...One of the leading or fundamental truths of Mormon philosophy [is] that the living may hear from the dead.
Pratt said it was "such an important blessing as to hear from the dead. And how shall we discriminate between those who seek to Him, and those who seek the same by unlawful means." (JoD, 2:45-46, April 6, 1853) [Note: unlawful means...Pratt id'd mediums...] "...the Lord has appointed a Holy Priesthood on the earth...and has committed to this Priesthood the keys of holy and divine revelation, and of correspondence, or communication between angels, spirits, and men..." (Parley P. Pratt, Journal of Discourses 2:45-46, April 6, 1853)
There ya go, Logo. Pratt called Smith a "medium." He said it's a fundamental "truth of Mormonism" that the living hear from the dead, and how it's an "important blessing" to hear from the dead. Pratt said these manifestations from the dead were to be in hauntings at the Mormon temples.
Was this teaching peculiar among Lds "apostles" only to Pratt? Not at all. Consider Lds "apostle" Charles W. Penrose, 1888:
"Knowledge that is needful concerning the spiritual sphere will come through an appointed channel and in the appointed place. The temple where the ordinances can be administered for the dead, is the place to hear from the dead. The Priesthood in the flesh, when it is necessary, will receive communications from the priesthood behind the veil." Lds apostle Charles W. Penrose, Mormon Doctrine, 1888, published through the Juvenile Instructor's office, SLC, pp. 40-41
There ya go. Pratt talked about Smith as a "medium"; and Penrose said channeling from the dead would take place at the appointed place (temple).
Where were you when I was single, again? LOL.
BTW, I always get a high score on the surviving the zombie apocalypse quizzes.
Ohh...just who among us will be exempt from "going down to Sheol"? This, perhaps?
To have one's calling and election made sure is to be sealed up unto eternal life; it is to have the unconditional guarantee of exaltation in the highest heaven of the celestial world; it is to receive the assurance of godhood; it is, in effect, to have the day of judgment advanced, so that an inheritance of all the glory and honor of the Father's kingdom is assured prior to the day when the faithful actually enter into the divine presence to sit with Christ in his throne, even as he is "set down" with his "Father in his throne." (Rev 3:21.)
Of course Jesus has all power.
However, I did not refer to His power, but rather to His conduct. Jesus lived a perfect life; He is our exemplar. If we are to go where He is, we must take up our cross daily, and follow Him.
So, if Jesus thought it was acceptable to converse with righteous men who have passed on, I think it is probably permissible for us to do so.
I do not seek such conversations; I have never had one. But if God were to send me a messenger, I would pay heed to what he had to say to me.
CynicalBear mentioned one: Elijah was taken directly into heaven. (See 2 Kings 2:11). I believe a few others have been taken up without tasting death; the rest of us will die.
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