Posted on 10/19/2010 6:05:21 PM PDT by Gamecock
1000 siverlings: “It seems to me that the act of baptising an infant who cannot believe, but the parents are believing for him, is more superstitious than letting him or her make a conscious decision to identify with Christ and become a disciple....
Adult baptism is a gift to a believer, an astounding gift, just like communion. You do it fully conscious and not with the belief that it is anything other than an act of obedience.”
I think your concern (or misunderstanding) regarding infant baptism arises because of your views on baptism. If you consider baptism an “act of obediance”, then it would follow that this makes no sense for infants. If you consider baptism as a “seal” of God’s promise and covenental gift (as I do), then it makes much more sense. I encourage your view of baptism as a gift and as such, don’t see how a gift becomes an act of obediance?
Otherwise, I think we align quite nicely on what baptism means to the beleiver...
Amen
Not much to add. I think all the reasons have been offered. The most important reason being it is not in Scripture. If Scripture is our rule of faith and there are no examples of infant baptism in it we shouldn't be doing it. Conversely, if the only examples of baptism in Scripture are believers baptism then we should be doing that.
So why then do some Protestants believe that righteousness is imputed rather than infused? That is the whole argument here, is it not?
Faith is NOT obedience/works
Well, no, it is not but you cannot separate the two. The salvific faith of Abraham, our focus now, was salvific to him because it was accompanied by certain works. Circumcision was not among these works, but crossing the desert, readiness to sacrifice Isaac, readiness to father a child in an old age were. Hebrews 11 explains that. If you want to understand what works of faith are, read Hebrews 11 and read the Sermon on the Mount.
None of you usual prooftexts for faith alone say anything different. Faith and works are inseparable; see for example, Eph. 2:2-10 of which you cite only a small fragment.
Hebrews 11 continues that very thing that I just explained: that faith of the Old Testament righteous was faith combined with their works of faith.
Romans 3, Romans 9, Galatians 2 and 3 do not speak of good works of Matthew 25 and Eph. 2:10 but of works of the law. These, like circumcision, are not salvific. Luther got his fallacy of faith alone because he misunderstood Romans and Galatians as denying the salvific role of every kind of work. The fact is, evident to anyone who reads these two letters not for prooftexts but for what they actually say, -- rather than condemning works of any kind, they point out that the elaborate system of Hebrew law, of which circumcision was a cornerstone, is not an obstacle for non-Jews who wish to attain salvation, because even the Jewish patriarchs attained righteousness through their works of faith. both letters, like any other Pauline letter end in exhortations for good works, "faith that worketh by charity" (Gal. 5:6).
Romans 4 says that works done for a reward does not count toward salvation. That, too, is Catholic teaching. Works done for a temporal reward -- for example, for pay or for social recognition -- are not salvific works. Neither are these works mentioned in Matthew 25 or Matthew 5-7, where works that save are listed.
Romans 11, Eph 2, 2 Timothy 1 contrast grace and works, not faith and works. That, too is Catholic teaching, that we are saved by grace alone but not by faith alone.
Titus 2 and 3 explain that we aught "excel in good works" and hardly can be a prooftext for faith alone, no matter how you carve it around. Same goes for James 2.
The idea of sole fide is a theological fantasy that contradicts the scripture.
Well and succinctly stated.
I suppose I don't understand how that all fits together. :) When I think of obedience here I mean as in "Do this in remembrance of me". The changed Christian WANTS to obey because to obey is to love:
This does not at all mean that partaking of the ordinances/sacraments is perfunctory since of course there is a spiritual component in loving God. IOW, partaking of the ordinances/sacraments is being obedient just as worship itself is being obedient. Both are commanded.
They must have been Clinton/Carter "Baptists". :) No SBC Baptist and certainly no Reformed Baptist would ever think such a thing.
And along those lines:
Therefore, as a Baptist, I (we) would see Baptism as a sign of THIS seal.
Hey, I got a shorter version too.
| Faith is what you do. |
So why then do some Protestants believe that righteousness is imputed rather than infused? That is the whole argument here, is it not?
Judiciously, we have been ransomed/purchased by Christ and his blood, presented perfect before the Father (imputation) because of His work. We have been bought with a price, we are not our own.
Col 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled(past tense) in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,
We have also been born again, given a heart of flesh from stone, given the Holy Spirit as a deposit and guarantee, adopted and transformed into Children of God from children of wrath, we are babes in Christ that will grow (santification). We are saved thru Faith, then we do good works. Saving Faith will always have good works; Cart/Horse.
Faith is NOT obedience/works. Faith drives works. Did you not understand the definition of faith from Heb 11? Heb 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2For by it the people of old received their commendation. 3By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.
It is thru Faith and the evidence(to us) is the good works. I has always been thru Faith.
Matt 9:And behold, some people brought to him a paralytic, lying on a bed. And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven."
Matt 9:22 Jesus turned, and seeing her he said, "Take heart, daughter; your faith has made you well."
Mark 10:52 And Jesus said to him, "Go your way; your faith has made you well." And immediately he recovered his sight and followed him on the way.
Mark 1:15"The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."
Mark 16:16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Mark 16:17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
Luke 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said, "Man, your sins are forgiven you."
Luke 7:49Then those who were at table with him began to say among themselves, "Who is this, who even forgives sins?" 50And he said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
Luke 8:11 The seed is the word of God. 12The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.
John 1:12But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
John 3:18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
John 3:36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
John 5:25Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 6:29 Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."
John 6:47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
John 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins."
John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"
John 12:46 I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness.
John 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Acts 3:16 And his name—by faith in his name—has made this man strong whom you see and know, and the faith that is through Jesus has given the man this perfect health in the presence of you all.
Acts 15:9and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.
Acts 20:21 testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.
The Scriptures are clear. By Adam's Sin imputed to us, we have been ruined, The perfect Man/God, Jesus lives a perfect, righteous life and pays, by imputation for our sin. Thru faith we recieve(imputation) HIS PERFECT RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Was His sacrifice NOT perfect? Are we not bought with His blood? If our feeble attempts at making ourselves pleasing to God with His help were possible, CHRIST DIED IN VAIN.
Christ did not die to make create a treasury of merit mixed with the so called merit of the saints, to be dolled out thru a priesthood to assist those in trying to make themselves righteous.
Gal 3:2Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish?(E) Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6just as Abraham "believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"? 7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith,
I agree that baptism is a sign and a symbol. 1 Peter 3:20, the eight in the ark are saved by water? through water? They were saved by being in Christ the Ark. Notice also how the chapter and verse 20 itself, references obedience and disobedience.
Do you consider baptism salvific (causing salvation)?
Would baptizing someone who illegitimately professes Christ be considered comdemning? (obviously not because their unbelief is what is condemning)
Since I assume you would answer both the above negatively, what do you believe is the harm in baptizing covenant children?
Why do you think God called the Jews to circumcise their children even though their children were not guaranteed to be children of faith? (hint: the answer is in the Bible)
Well, yes, but that is not where it stopped. We also have been made a new creation; as your own quote says, holy and blameless. It is a process which does not always complete, but it is a process of true and not imputed sanctification.
It is thru Faith and the evidence(to us) is the good works
Yes, that is true. This is what your supposed prooftext of "faith alone" show: that faith is very important. The good works that we do -- the kind examplified in Hebrews 11 or Matthes 5-7, or Matthew 25 -- are works of self-denial and therefore require faith (or lunacy). What is not true is that we just do these works automatically because we once got faith. Good works take an effort of the will each time; this is why the Bible spends so much time teaching us good works. We are therefore saved by cooperating with grace in our good works. We are saved by grace alone but not by faith alone.
Was His sacrifice NOT perfect?
Tht is a question I ask you. If the righteousness of the saints is mere imputation then the Sacrifice of Christ bought us a cover but not a new soul.
Christ did not die to make create a treasury of merit mixed with the so called merit of the saints, to be dolled out thru a priesthood to assist those in trying to make themselves righteous.
So again, this naked assertion (Christ actually said, "Make to yourselves ... a treasure in heaven which faileth not", so I wonder how you know He did not want us to do what he told us to do), -- betrays a lack of faith on your part. So the saints are not capable of having merit? Was the sacrifice of Christ not enough for them?
We pray, "deliver us from evil". Should we instead pray "cover up our evil"?
Christ said, "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect". Did He mean to say "pretend you are perfect"?
St. Peter teaches that there is quite a distance from initial reponse of faith and santification. But look what happens in the end:
you, employing all care, minister in your faith, virtue; and in virtue, knowledge; [6] And in knowledge, abstinence; and in abstinence, patience; and in patience, godliness; [7] And in godliness, love of brotherhood; and in love of brotherhood, charity. [8] For if these things be with you and abound, they will make you to be neither empty nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. [9] For he that hath not these things with him, is blind, and groping, having forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. [10] Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time.(2 Peter 1)
Did St. Peter not mean what he wrote? Did he mean "fakers of divine nature"? "Assured of your calling and election"? "You shall not be seen as you sin at any time"?
Faith is a choice. How many times have you heard someone's testimony about their "making a decision for Christ"?
That's an act of will. It's a deed. It's a work.
Faith is a work.
Go on, say it.
Hebrews 11.
:)
"The basilica gets its name because, like many early Christian basilicas, it was built directly over (sopra) the foundations of a temple dedicated to the Egyptian goddess Isis..."
Well, I am very proud of you, choosing to believe. Congratulations for choosing wisely. I hope you are proud of your action, also. Very smart of you to choose God.
LOL. I realize it is difficult to tell the truth when you appear to make this up as you go along. To save you further embarrassment you need to understand that there are many far more educated and more intelligent than you are. Add to that those who actually care enough about the truth to do some basic research and you have a vast majority who see you for what you really are.
Your original contention was that the Vatican was built over the ruins of a Temple of Isis, not that a church was built over the ruins of a temple outside the Vatican. Name one structure anywhere within a 30 mile radius of the Coliseum that was not built over the ruins of a Roman era structure or temple? Perhaps you are simply mad that the temple of Isis has been replaced at all.
To further impeach your absurd efforts to link the Vatican to something that occupied the real estate it resides on why don't you tell us what structures predated the phone booth your church meets in. Was it an Indian graveyard, a human sacrifice temple of the Mound Culture or just some settlers outhouse?
Now grow up and stop you nonsense. Your petulant outbursts irritate honest people.
Nonsense. I don't believe that the good Dr. E. is simply mad.
To further impeach your absurd efforts to link the Vatican to something that occupied the real estate it resides on why don't you tell us what structures predated the phone booth your church meets in. Was it an Indian graveyard, a human sacrifice temple of the Mound Culture or just some settlers outhouse?
Given when they were founded, maybe a Nash Rambler junkyard.
Now grow up and stop you nonsense. Your petulant outbursts irritate honest people.
If you tell people to do something on this board, they'll run whining and crying to the mod, unless they're Catholic, that is.
Faith is a work.
FAITH is a GIFT.
Phil 1:29 For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him,
Rom 9:15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
How many "gifts" have YOU worked for?
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