Presbyterian Church in America Alert
Posted on 10/22/2010 2:42:31 AM PDT by Gamecock
CHARLOTTE, N.C. — In shopping around for a Cub Scout program for their two sons, ages 6 and 8, Jeremy and Jodi Stokes decided on the one at Christ Covenant Church in Matthews, N.C.
The Stokeses, also of Matthews, weren't members of the evangelical megachurch, but they had many friends who were. And unlike the Cub Scout pack at their own church, which doesn't have a program for 6-year-old Tiger Scouts, Christ Covenant's was big enough to accommodate both of their boys.
The couple even signed up to be Scout leaders when they discovered the church needed adult help. And when the Scouting officials at Christ Covenant found out Jeremy Stokes was an Eagle Scout, they were thrilled.
So why did Christ Covenant reject the Stokeses' application to be Scout leaders?
Because they're Mormons. And, therefore, not real Christians, church officials told the couple.
"I can't believe they had the audacity to say, 'You can't be leaders, but we want your boys,' " Jodi Stokes said. "Are you kidding me?"
The Rev. Gabe Sylvia, Christ Covenant's staff liaison to the Scouting program, confirmed the Stokeses' account. He called them to apologize but defends the church's decision.
"When it became clear that they were Mormons, they could not become leaders in our pack. Mormonism is not consistent with historical Christianity," he said.
That view — that Mormons, whose church is formally titled the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, are not Christians — is shared by other Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox Christian churches, as well.
"It was so offensive," said Jodi Stokes, who was raised Catholic, then became a Mormon. "I have a picture of Jesus in my living room."
Members of the Salt Lake City-based church believe salvation is possible because of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. But significant theological differences separate Mormons from most Christian churches.
The LDS church treats as holy scripture the Book of Mormon, which isn't recognized by other churches, but which it believes was divinely revealed to Joseph Smith in the 1820s.
Mormons also disavow belief in the core Christian doctrine of the Trinity — that the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one — instead believing the three to be individuals united in a single purpose.
Mormons believe the original Christian church vanished 100 years after Jesus' death and resurrection. The authentic church, they believe, was restored by Smith.
The LDS church treats as holy scripture the Book of Mormon, which isn't recognized by other churches, but which it believes was divinely revealed to Joseph Smith in the 1820s.Mormons also disavow belief in the core Christian doctrine of the Trinity — that the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one — instead believing the three to be individuals united in a single purpose.
And now, what does this congregation of the Presbyterian Church of America believe? From their website:
We believe in the Triune God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We believe that people are saved by grace alone through faith alone and we believe that the Bible is God-breathed and our only infallible rule for faith and life.
“I have a picture of Jesus in my living room.”
Well, that settles it, then! You’re a Christian!
Ping
I have a photo of my grandparents in my living room. What does that make me?
I am not sure why anyone would be shocked at this story. Evangelical, orthodox churches require that leadership positions in their programs be filled by individuals that have like minded beliefs. Mormonism is considered to be a cult and there would be concern over this couple leading children who are being taught orthodox Christian precepts. The church had a right to make this decision and the Mormon couple should understand that to the rest of the orthodox Christian world, their beliefs are not compatible with Scripture nor tradition for that matter. I am sure that the family would be welcome to attend meetings or socials associated with the scouts, but to hold a leadership position for a troop affiliated with a conservative Presbyterian denomination would not be acceptable. I would also guess that if the couple were Roman Catholics they would also have been denied leadership positions. Certainly, as a fundamental Baptist, I would not expect to be a scout leader for a troop that was affiliated with a Roman Catholic Church because my understanding of Catholicism would not be what the Catholics expect their children to learn from their leaders. People should get over themselves and face reality.
Islam celebrates Jesus Christ as a prophet, too.
This has nothing to do with BSA and is controlled by the chartering org which is the church in question which has the right to allow or disallow any adult wishing to be a leader. The LDS is the largest sponsor of packs and troops in the USA and have even been allowed to adjust the program to fit their religion. I can tell you what the response would be by an LDS unit placed in the same position. No way! LDS leaders are not actually volunteers either being chosen by their bishops to serve as pack and troop leaders. Seems to me that the fellows complaint is not with the other pack but should be with the LDS pack that does not offer the tiger cub program. In addition I don’t think he is a very good Mormon either not enrolling his children in the pack sponsored by his ward and following their carefully thought out rules.
You are correct. And Islam, just like Mormonism, leads people away from the truth and ultimately to destruction.
This is just plain silly. Mormons are among the best family oriented folk I have every known. Perfect for scout leaders. Pfffffft!
Oh...you’re using the “C” word. That’s like the Liberals saying that republicans are stupid: REDUCE to ridicule!
After doing wedding photography in many different houses for years and dealing with the people that run them, I have learned that the love of God does not drive many so-called Christians, but money and their NEED for confirmation of their belief does. THAT is why they are intolerant of other metaphysical beliefs.....and ridicule others and call them names. Just like our politicians....
One old philosopher (Aristotle?) said that he despised those who claimed to have a special connection with the almighty and would grant absolution for a consideration.
If you want the REAL answer about today’s organized religions, look at egos, finances, and this belief in the spiritual good-old-boy networking. To clarify that remark: the belief in continual forgiveness makes no sense to me; we were given commandments, not suggestions.
People should get over themselves and face reality? The reality is that if one religion is a cult, all religions are cults. There is nothing wrong with that, unless the ego can’t take it.
There is one small issue here: Mormons are not Christians and this is a Christian church.
I would understand the church not wanting someone outside their faith to be a leader in their church. How does theology affect being a scout leader? Certainly a Mormon, Jew or Catholic can share a value set without sharing a theology. Boy Scouts don’t get particular religious training in the scouts, do they?
As a Jewish Eagle scout, this really bothers me. Obviously, the church has the right to do this, but should they?
In 1941, my father founded a Boy Scout troop at the Jewish Community Center, sponsored by the B’nai Brith, here in York, PA. His co-founder was Rabbi Alexander D. Goode. In case anyone does not recognize the name, he was one of the Four Chaplains who went down with the USS Dorchester in WWII. The Chaplains, a rabbi, a priest, and two ministers, all gave up their life jackets so that others may live. They linked arms, and went down, each saying his own prayer.
The conditions under which Rabbi Goode and my father agreed to found and lead the troop were that no boy would be denied membership or advancement on account of race, creed, religion, or national origin. In 1952, it was the only troop in the country to have boys earn the religious awards in all the major religions, including Mormonism.
It was, IOW, an American troop, and my father was succeeded as scoutmaster by a series of Christian men, several of whom were awarded the Shoffar award, usually reserved for Jewish scout leaders.
Every so often, I will run into a man, who tells me that my father saved him from a life of criminal activity. None of those men are Jewish.
“THAT is why they are intolerant of other metaphysical beliefs.....and ridicule others and call them names”
First of all, I have not called anyone “names”. It is common knowledge that Mormonism or the Church of the Latter Day Saints is not by any standard considered a part of orthodox Christianity. Orthodox Christianity includes Protestantism, Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxism, and the various groups of Anabaptists like the Amish and Mennonites. All of these diverse Christian groups would agree that Mormonism does not hold to the tenets of Christianity as has been laid down in the past centuries. My point was to explain that a Mormon couple , although most likely welcome to join in social events at the Church cub scout meetings, were not going to be given positions of authority within the organization based on the fact that their particular belief system is not in line with orthodox Christianity, in this case the Presbyterian Church in question. It is important to understand that the undermining of Christianity today is due in large part to the wishy washy attitude of certain sects who have ignored Scripture and embraced the kind of ecumenism that destroys doctrinal strength and the ability to display the truth. I am sorry that your experience as a wedding photographer has left you with a dubious understanding of the Christian faith,and it is certainly shameful on the part of those churches you visited that all they could demonstrate to you, an outsider,is monetary greed and hubris, two positions the Bible clearly considers sinful. You also said that I was using the “C”word which I am unfamiliar with unless you are referring to my use of the word “Catholicism”. If so , it makes no sense to infer that my usage of the “C” word was in any way pejorative. I merely placed it in the context of an example of how I,as a Baptist, would not be offended if my child was attending a Roman Catholic sponsered Cub scout group, and I was not asked to be a leader. I would assume that the Roman Catholics would want their leaders to reflect their own vision and not that of a Protestant’s.
Well, according to the Mormon in this article, it makes you a disciple/follower of your grandparents. According to me, it makes you the owner of a photograph of your grandparents.
Is it a slow day in Mormon-bashing land and we had to drag this out again?
Yeah, I can just imagine an eventual convo around the Cub scout fire ring on an outing...or later on a Boy Scout fire ring on an outing...
....some 'Scout asks Mr. Stokes about marriage...and, having seen a Mormon bumper sticker that reads "Families are Forever," inquires of that...(who knows? Maybe even Mr. Stokes has such a bumper sticker?)...
...and of course, Mr. Stokes, being the "best family oriented folk" he is, proceeds to confuse the hell out of any 'Scout within hearing range that he believes his marriage with Mrs. Stokes will be forever...
...and that they'll both grow up to be full-grown gods (from the "gods in embryo" -- a common Mormon leader term used to describe married temple Mormons) who will live with their family on their own planet.
[Sure. That's what kind of informal outing convos this church wants to sponsor as Mormons, who have had programs in the past labeled "every member a missionary," take the opportunity to share their unique version of the "gospel."]
You forgot to add if you are Mormon or not. It helps clarify the conversation.
Same goes for the statue in my living room of the woman referred to in the Gospes as “highly favored”, “full of grace, and of whom the Gospel says all generations shall call blessed: the blessed virgin Mary, the mother of my Lord, who Jesus always honored in accord with the Ten Commandments.
The LDS Church is the best example of proper and effective use of the program, and their youth involvement is especially strong. Witness how many of their missionaries are former scouts, and Eagle Scouts at that.
I wished they had told us what kind of camera they used.
Q. 109. What are the sins forbidden in the second commandment?
A. The sins forbidden in the second commandment are, all devising, counselling, commanding, using, and anywise approving, any religious worship not instituted by God himself; tolerating a false religion; the making any representation of God, of all or of any of the three persons, either inwardly in our mind, or outwardly in any kind of image or likeness of any creature whatsoever; all worshipping of it, or God in it or by it; the making of any representation of feigned deities, and all worship of them, or service belonging to them, all superstitious devices, corrupting the worship of God, adding to it, or taking from it, whether invented and taken up of ourselves, or received by tradition from others, though under the title of antiquity, custom, devotion, good intent, or any other pretence whatsoever; simony; sacrilege; all neglect, contempt, hindering, and opposing the worship and ordinances which God hath appointed.
“It was so offensive to say I was not a comedian,” rwfromkansas said. “I have an autographed picture of Jeff Foxworthy.”
But then I might be wrong too.
I believe the Charlotte Observer broke this story with their Oct. 19 article. In that article the journalist mentions Mark Turner, executive director of Mecklenburg's Boy Scouts Council. According to that journalist, Turner "said Christ Covenant is within its rights as a chartering organization to apply additional leadership qualifications, as long as it also honors those the Boy Scouts insist on."
I would say that this Church believes that its Cub Scout leaders should believe in one God. The God. That's what the Boy Scouts focus on as a key standard.
Mormons? They believe in many gods:
They believe a "heavenly father" exists named Elohim.
They believe a separate god known both as Jehovah and Jesus Christ exists.
They believe a third god exists, the Holy Ghost.
Their hymnal contains a hymn singing to a fourth god, a "mother" god who is the "wife" of Elohim.
Their writings reference a "council of gods" and Joseph Smith said the "head god" appointed Elohim for this world. (How many are in that council? Who knows)
And then they believe millions more have become gods or will become gods.
That's hardly adhering to the Solo God standard!!!
I guess I was wrong. :-)
Right, because six year olds ask what bumper stickers mean on campouts.
When I was in, I know our sponsoring church had zero impact on who our leaders were. Maybe there is a rule in the official BSA charter that chartering organizations can do whatever they want, but I have not seen it. All I have seen is a local guy say that it is in the rules, without showing the rule or quoting it.
As for this church, even if they are allowed to decide on who is a leader, this move makes them look like cowards. To me, it makes them look like they are afraid of anyone who doesn’t toe the line in their doctrine.
“I would say that this Church believes that its Cub Scout leaders should believe in one God. The God. That’s what the Boy Scouts focus on as a key standard.”
From the article:
For Sylvia, that at least means that Scout leaders must believe in the Apostles’ Creed - a profession of faith dating back to the early centuries of Christianity.
Stelle Snyder, the spokeswoman for Christ Covenant, said it could even extend beyond that. A decade ago, she said, the church had to say no to a Catholic dad who wanted to coach one of the church’s sports teams. Catholics, she said, often stress good works as the road to salvation more than many Protestants, who emphasize grace. And she said it’s part of the role of coaches in her church’s sports outreach program to share Bible stories.
So it’s not just based on one’s understanding of the Christian God/creed. No Catholics Christians or Lds, which is fine. A church has a right to choose who they want to be leading their youth I reckon.
Freegards
Not likely. But an 8 yo might.
IN general, the cub scouts and boy scouts require that the leaders be religious, but not that the leaders be of a particular religion.
I guess they allow chartering organizations to discriminate further, although I would guess they would frown on a church requiring leaders all be of the same denomination. Whether they would allow christian churches to refuse to allow a jewish scout leader, I can’t say — but they are pretty sensitive to the charge of discrimination.
So if a church has sports teams for children, and choose members over non-members to be coaches, they are "cowards?"
Yes, they can. The sponsoring group/church has a lot of leeway in the determination of critieria for leadership in their troop.
Even the BSA national agrees that the decision is theirs.
The LDS exercise this right all the time, on the West coast to Zion (Utah) it is extremely rare if not unheard of to have non-LDS leadership in an LDS troop.
Sorry, I missed where we were supposed to wear our religious affiliation marks on our sleeves.
For the record, this is my denomination, as my church is also in the PCA. It is also the denomination I have chosen as being closest to what I believe scriptures teach, so I am not PCA by accident.
Does that help “clarify” the conversation?
I should note that some PCA churches believe that having a picture of Jesus is a violation of the 2nd commandment, that thou shalt not have a graven image.
My church does not allow sunday school material that includes pictures of Jesus, and they discouraged people from going to movies that depict Jesus, such as the Passion of the Christ. (My church is PCA).
This is just plain silly. Mormons are among the best family oriented folk I have every known. Perfect for scout leaders. Pfffffft!
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Fine and they can be scout leaders in an LDS troop. That still doesn’t make them Christians.
Your response mad me laugh.
Sorry. My points were clear. I don’t like organized religion - - of any flavor. I agree with no religious club. I attend no church, or whatever you want to call it.
I firmly believe in God. I also firmly believe that the evil one encourages religious secularism, animosity, hatred, ridicule and war. Just like politics, there’s money involved; so, the leaders must keep their followers as followers.
If you want the REAL answer about today’s organized religions, look at egos, finances, and this belief in the spiritual good-old-boy networking. To clarify that remark: the belief in continual forgiveness makes no sense to me; we were given commandments, not suggestions.
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BWWWWHHHHHAAAAA!!!
Look at the LDS church, perfect description,their egos, finances, and the good old boy network. Not to mention the ‘continual forgiveness’.
Afa your comment if one religion is a cult all of them are, depends upon your definition of ‘cult’. There are three. All religions are ‘cults’ only using the Anthropological definition.
Mormonism is also a cult using the sociological definition (high control group) and theological definition (outside traditional Christian belief while claiming to be Christian). The latter two do not apply to over 90% of religions.
BSA has different awards/goals depending upon the religious affiliation (if any of the sponsoring group). the LDS one is VERY different from most Christian ones. I can see where faith would be an issue.
PYW posted a chart the other day with the different awards and denominations/religions.
Nicely framed distinctions.
To paraphrase the good captain, “What does a PCA church need with a Boy Scout troop?”
“The reality is that if one religion is a cult, all religions are cults.”
Exactly. There is nothing in Mormonism that is not shared by religion in general. A belief in the metaphysical.
“colorcountry; reaganaut; greyfoxx39; Colofornian; P-Marlowe”
Yup, call in the cut an paste queens.
A grandchild.
To me, it makes them look like they are afraid of anyone who doesn’t toe the line in their doctrine.
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No, that would be if they refused to allow a Methodist or non-denominational Christian to be leaders.
Mormons are a different bird all together.
Oh lease, dixjea. Show me my last cut and paste (that wasn’t lyrics or a picture), or retract your accusation.
If there weren't such a WEALTH of claims, statements and downright lies from mormon leaders all the way down from Joseph Smith, there wouldn't be any material TO cut and paste.
Nice false accusation...
I give it am 8, would be a 9 but it could have been more detailed to really catch the uninformed...
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