Posted on 10/31/2010 11:59:22 AM PDT by RnMomof7
In Christ Alone lyrics
Songwriters: Getty, Julian Keith; Townend, Stuart Richard;
In Christ alone my hope is found He is my light, my strength, my song This Cornerstone, this solid ground Firm through the fiercest drought and storm
What heights of love, what depths of peace When fears are stilled, when strivings cease My Comforter, my All in All Here in the love of Christ I stand
In Christ alone, who took on flesh Fullness of God in helpless Babe This gift of love and righteousness Scorned by the ones He came to save
?Til on that cross as Jesus died The wrath of God was satisfied For every sin on Him was laid Here in the death of Christ I live, I live
There in the ground His body lay Light of the world by darkness slain Then bursting forth in glorious Day Up from the grave He rose again
And as He stands in victory Sin?s curse has lost its grip on me For I am His and He is mine Bought with the precious blood of Christ
Your kind words are appreciated, but you should know that I am among the chief sinners.
This is true, OR. No one thought it particularly odd either. There are places on earth and in various cultures where such goings on are not all that remarkable. As for the Fatima and other apparitions of Panagia being heretical, well, so far as I know, only one of them has likely strayed into heresy and that is the recent one in the former Yugoslavia. Beliefs about visions of the Most Holy Theotokos are theologoumenna, pious beliefs which can be held, or not. There is no requirement that a Roman Catholic believe in them.
When was Holy Tradition "revised", mm?
"It’s in writing, we have the oldest available manuscripts to which we can refer if need be."
The oldest manuscripts may be among the most corrupted, mm. It's just not that simple. "Tradition is a ship adrift"
It hasn't worked out that way with us, mm.
The perpetual virginity of Mary, her alleged sinlessness, her assumption, for example.
The pronouncements by earlier popes that there’s no salvation outside the church has now been revised to contain exceptions, the first among whom are the muslims....
gag...
That sure is a far cry from the Crusades.
*Holy Tradition* leaves the RCC in a state of flux.
But not the Orthodox Church.
I did specify....
But Kosta's remarks which gave rise to this line of posts was quite obviously referring to Holy Tradition as the Orthodox Church embraces it. Am I to take it that you can accept that Holy Tradition as we Orthodox live it out in the life of The Church is not a moving target?
BTW, until about the 10th century, Holy Tradition in the Latin Church was about as unchanging as it has always been in the East.
Sure; and Alexander the Great was a weekend warrior...
If the tradition in the Orthodox church hasn’t changed in about a thousand years, then it hasn’t changed. I would still not accept tradition on the level of reliability of Scripture.
I’ve been gone all day and had over a page of pings to catch up on. I didn’t read each and every one as thoroughly as possible.
And the answer is yes. As your question that follows indicate:
Is it possible for God to grow in wisdom and stature?
No, it is not possible. He Is God in Mary's womb, and in the manger, and att all points in time. It is the human nature of Jesus that went through the human process of maturing. Jesus would not be fully human if He bypassed some of the natural human experience. He also, for example, prayed to God.
A temporary abode, as Christ was a baby inside of her.
you should publish a special annalex dictionary
"σκηνωμα" is properly translated as tabernacle in liturgical context and tent in everyday context. There is no need for another dictionary, -- there is a need for honest translations. In the liturgical context it is a place where God is. As Mary carried Christ in her womb, she became a tabernacle of God. So is a tabernacle with the Precious Body and Blood in Catholic Churches today.
Ironic, isn't it, that when the canon of the NT was being established, it was the various scriptures whose reliability was questioned, not Holy Tradition!
"I’ve been gone all day and had over a page of pings to catch up on. I didn’t read each and every one as thoroughly as possible."
Well, see, that's what you get for having a life away from this benighted place!
Stocking up for the next round of lake effect snow.
We’re looking at days of it.....
again.....
Blue Duncan: when Paul is writing to Jewish believers who taught that salvation is through faith plus works, he corrected them with the following [Rom 9-10 selected verses]
More precisely, St. Paul was confronting a belief that a Christian convert should be circumcised. It is circumcision, and more broadly, the belief in the salvific nature of the Hebrew Law that is addressed and demolished in Romans (and Galatians). Since you brought up Romans 9 and 10, let us examine the context. The Jews, he says, "sought justice" "as it were of works" and of course they did not get justice. The Gentiles however, "followed not after justice, have attained to justice, even the justice that is of faith". Note that the distinction is not between works in general and faith, but works of Jewish law and faith. It becomes clear when St. Paul concludes: "there is no distinction of the Jew and the Greek: for the same is Lord over all, rich unto all that call upon him".
So it is faith that erases the distinction between a Jew and a Gentile as either one can believe the same thing. It is the faith that they share that brings salvation to both Jew and Greek. But does it say that it is faith as opposed to good works of charity? Not at all: it goes on to say "But all do not obey the gospel" and later, "if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off" (Rom 11:22). These two chapters teach what the Catholic Church teaches: that faith is necessary for salvation, but the faith must result in obedience of the gospel, -- the works. And indeed, the letter does not end there. Instead, we hear this:
[1] I BESEECH you therefore, brethren, by the mercy of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing unto God, your reasonable service. [2] And be not conformed to this world; but be reformed in the newness of your mind, that you may prove what is the good, and the acceptable, and the perfect will of God. [3] For I say, by the grace that is given me, to all that are among you, not to be more wise than it behoveth to be wise, but to be wise unto sobriety, and according as God hath divided to every one the measure of faith. [4] For as in one body we have many members, but all the members have not the same office: [5] So we being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.[6] And having different gifts, according to the grace that is given us, either prophecy, to be used according to the rule of faith; [7] Or ministry, in ministering; or he that teacheth, in doctrine; [8] He that exhorteth, in exhorting; he that giveth, with simplicity; he that ruleth, with carefulness; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness. [9] Let love be without dissimulation. Hating that which is evil, cleaving to that which is good. [10] Loving one another with the charity of brotherhood, with honour preventing one another.
[11] In carefulness not slothful. In spirit fervent. Serving the Lord. [12] Rejoicing in hope. Patient in tribulation. Instant in prayer. [13] Communicating to the necessities of the saints. Pursuing hospitality. [14] Bless them that persecute you: bless, and curse not. [15] Rejoice with them that rejoice; weep with them that weep.
[16] Being of one mind one towards another. Not minding high things, but consenting to the humble. Be not wise in your own conceits. [17] To no man rendering evil for evil. Providing good things, not only in the sight of God, but also in the sight of all men.
(Romans 12)
Further,
now our salvation is nearer than when we believed. [12] The night is passed, and the day is at hand. Let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and put on the armour of light. [13] Let us walk honestly, as in the day: not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and impurities, not in contention and envy: [14] But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh in its concupiscences.(Romans 13)
We are united in faith, but we are not saved by faith alone. Works of obedience, mercy, charity must accompany our walk of faith. This is what St. Paul wrote, and thsi is waht the Catholic Chruch teaches.
*Abstain from blood*
*by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified*
[Catholics] don't believe that.
The prohibition on eating blood is given in Acts 15 by the Church, and it has since been rescinded by the same Church. It is a disciplinary matter, and like all Church disciplines the Church has the authority of "binding and loosing" to change that. The rest we do believe, of course. What makes you think we don't?
Sure she can.
I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven (Mt 16:19)
Direct mandate for Christ to legislate in matters pertaining to salvation.
Further, that mandate was exercised according to the very scripture you pretend to believe:
I judge that they, who from among the Gentiles are converted to God, are not to be disquieted (Acts 15:19)
And thus, by a decision of a Church council, the Biblical law of Moses became null and void.
Bind and loose.
Boatbums: I spent a good deal of time as have many others including you, Belteshazzar, proving repeatedly that Scripture most certainly does teach those very concepts
Show me. A link to your "proof" will do, or give me the verses again.
“We are united in faith, but we are not saved by faith alone. Works of obedience, mercy, charity must accompany our walk of faith. This is what St. Paul wrote, and thsi is waht the Catholic Chruch teaches”
That is a perversion of what Paul taught. It is clear from the context of Romans 9-11 that what Paul was contending with is the same question that the Church at Jerusalem contended with; faith plus works or faith alone. The Church at Jerusalem and Paul here with the Churchs at Rome come down on the side of faith alone. In fact, when the Church at Jerusalem added the dietry restrictions to the letter to the churchs, Paul countermanded even them so that there would be no question that salvation was by faith alone.
In the verse you are responding to I showed you where the deception is: two verses are quoted and the third one, teaching the distinctly Catholic doctrine is omitted from the quote; then again, half of a passage is quoted and the other, Catohlic part fo the passage is omitted. That is deceptive, there is no other word for it. What do you think was the reason to chop up quotes like that?
I know your journey there took you thru some bad experiences in former churches
What bad experiences? I visited many Protestant communities of faith to accompany my formerly Protestant wife and had a wonderful time, and met some truly wonderful people. Their theology is nonsense on sticks, but the people are very nice, the coffee is good, and some pastors can be very inspiring in their sermons. Interestingly, a typical Protestant sermon, I found out, is filled with exhortations to good works; how they combine that with their "faith alone" dogma is a mystery.
Again.....
Galatians 3
1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
7Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” 12But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
15 To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
19Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
21Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.
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