Posted on 10/31/2010 11:59:22 AM PDT by RnMomof7
In Christ Alone lyrics
Songwriters: Getty, Julian Keith; Townend, Stuart Richard;
In Christ alone my hope is found He is my light, my strength, my song This Cornerstone, this solid ground Firm through the fiercest drought and storm
What heights of love, what depths of peace When fears are stilled, when strivings cease My Comforter, my All in All Here in the love of Christ I stand
In Christ alone, who took on flesh Fullness of God in helpless Babe This gift of love and righteousness Scorned by the ones He came to save
?Til on that cross as Jesus died The wrath of God was satisfied For every sin on Him was laid Here in the death of Christ I live, I live
There in the ground His body lay Light of the world by darkness slain Then bursting forth in glorious Day Up from the grave He rose again
And as He stands in victory Sin?s curse has lost its grip on me For I am His and He is mine Bought with the precious blood of Christ
Being cleansed from sin and being conceived without sin are two different things or did you not notice?
"We have it and you don't" nyaa, nyaa, nyaa! Please, your piety is underwhelming me. What you have been convinced is the true church is simply a church that at one time was local (Rome), small and independent in it's hierarchy. Once the Roman Emperor Constantine became infatuated with it in the 4th. century, and he established Christianity as the state religion, then the church in Rome began her descent into the abyss of politics, wealth and power. The organization today that has co-opted the title of universal church - which at one time meant all the believers in Christ across the many local churches - has never reversed course from the power grabbing past that saw it decline into paganized idolatry and superstition. Even today, those vestiges remain.
This "vast array of legitimate liturgical and monastioc (sic) practices" where legitimate areas are left to the individual mind seems to be only a benefit you award to yourselves because you state there is unity. The various non-Catholic Christian denominations that are legitimately followers of Christ can also lay claim to doctrinal unity in the major tenets of the faith that are laid out in Scripture and, most all of them, you claim as well. So, tell me, how is it that you can enjoy the liberty in Christ of practices of minor theological importance, yet deny that same liberty to others who are in Christ every much as you?
The problem I see is not so much that you don't believe others outside of your religion can be truly members of the universal church, but by openly acknowledging it, you must release the power you once relished and killed for.
Don't feel bad, Old Reggie, no one still in their human corrupt mind is able to fully explain it much less understand it! Those Early Church Fathers (ECF) went back and forth for hundreds of years before they came to a semi-coherent, sorta, kinda statement of acceptance. It says:
"We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets."
Even in these fourth century words, you can see only the doctrines that were gleaned from Scripture and they then tried to interpret to the simple man something that is so immense, so awe-inspiring, so impossible to have words for, something the human mind - no matter how brilliant - is incapable of fully grasping.
We CAN know that there is only one true God and that he has revealed himself (even the masculine pronoun seems silly). He has spoken to men and women through the centuries in a way that some of what he is can be known. The early Christians saw Jesus who was Almighty God in the flesh (incarnate) and they experienced the work and the presence of the Holy Spirit Jesus promised them would indwell them. Even today, that same Spirit of God indwells all those who trust in Christ. God used words to connote a triune nature, in the inspired Scriptures, that he called Father, Son and Holy Spirit but perhaps those were merely the words he used to explain simply what can only be infinitely understood. I believe in those words of the creed, but they are really man's feeble attempt to describe what we only will understand with an infinite mind - the mind of Christ, which we will one day have. Then you will have no more difficulty! :o)
What are you always yelling at us to do? "READ the rest of the verse!". It continues:
Luke 1:35-41
"And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. For with God nothing shall be impossible. And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her. And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda; And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth. And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:"
So, as you can see, Gabriel told Mary about Elisabeth, who was in her sixth month of pregnancy and she hurried to visit her. Mary was engaged to be a normal married Jewish woman and she knew she could not be pregnant until she and Joseph were over the betrothal period. That is where I see "immediacy". See?
Well no, scriptures certainly are not ALL catholic as these threads do attest to. But of course it is quite understandable a catholic such as yourself might see it as so.
Exactly Boatbums...excellant post.
How do you know that church tradition reflects what God had to say?
Well, I see that it's OK for Catholics to have individuality in their church but not for others.
Non-Catholics are regularly castigated for YOPIOS, and other perceived doctrinal differences when really the issues are primarily in disputable matters, not the core belief in salvation by faith alone in Christ alone.
When Protestants allow for individuality, it's a sign of the problems inherent in Protestantism, we're shredded for our alleged 30,000 different denominations, and yet Catholics laud the Catholic church for the very thing they condemn in others.
For the Catholic church it's *diversity* and *legitimate* when individuality is expressed, a sign of strength. For non-Catholics, it's *fragmentation* and *disunity*, a sign of weakness.
Catholic double standards are so transparent.
[Roman] Catholic double standards are so transparent.
INDEED . . . and silly, clueless, rubber history’d, rubber Bible’d . . .
That is my understanding of Catholicism as it relates to salvation. God's sovereignty has nothing to do with it. Only man's sovereignty matters in the end. I realize the argument might be that God wanted it that way, but I can't accept it. :)
“When effort on our part is absent, then God’s help also stops.” Saint John Chrysostom
That sounds eerily similar to "God only helps those who help themselves". He didn't mean that, did he? :)
On a side note, I might be making a few more posts, but I'm sure they will be trailing off as Christmas eve approaches. So just in case, let me take this opportunity to wish each of you and your families a most blessed and merry Christmas. May the Good Lord shine His heart on all of your spirits as we celebrate our Savior's birth. God bless you all.
No it's not . Its really quite simple. The Greek of the Creed makes it clear Christ was "τὸν ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς γεννηθέντα πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων·", begotten from the Father before all ages. You've prayed that hundreds of times, no doubt. Eternity is a time concept. It is by necessity limited by the expanse of time, the full expanse of time, but limited nevertheless. Christ and the HS "are" beyond or outside any limits of time. This is understandable if one accepts, as I believe most Protestants do, that our Triune God is Ο ΩΝ, the creator of the fact of Existence itself. That the Son "τὸν ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς γεννηθέντα" and the Spirit "τὸ ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς ἐκπορευόμενον" (I love that word! It rolls off the tongue!)in no fashion limits their "eternal" attribute. There was never a time when either of Them "was not".
See...you knew this all along. You were just thinking about it in more anthropomorphic and concrete terms than we do.
Okay, let's just say one individual. That individual does not include himself in the Good in the example above. That individual considers himself lesser than the Father. That individual says he was sent and didn't come on his own. That individual says it is not his will but the Father's that should be done. That individual calls the Father his God and, according to Apostle Paul, that individual was raised by God (but the Church says he raised himself), and he also says God is the head of that individual, and so on and so on.
All this is straight from the NT. In all this, and in numerous other examples, that individual is never, ever, said to be equal to the Father, and that's the subordinaitonalist (demiurgic) view that was taught by all Christian apologetics for almost three centuries.
And, despite maintaining the "monarchy" of the Father, who is without a cause and who doesn't need the Son and the Spirit to "be", and who gave "existence" to the Son and the Spirit, the Church insists the three Hypostases are co-equal and existed for all eternity as one being, and that this cannot be "explained" but must be believed. The OT is a fairytale compared to this.
And then the Eastern Church rejects the Latin transubstantiation on the grounds that it attempts to explain the inexplicable mystery!
God's "sovereignty" has everything to do with it, FK. God is the "παντοκράτορα" the Almighty Ruler of All Existences, because He is the Creator of Existence itself and everything else on earth and in heaven, visible and invisible. What possible sovereignty can mankind have that does not have its origins in Him? "I realize the argument might be that God wanted it that way, but I can't accept it. :)"
Well, if God created us, as we are told, in His image and likeness, we would be endowed with the divine attribute of Free Will, would we not? The Church has always taught that mankind was created having the potential to become like God. That potential was lost in the Fall and restored by the Incarnation. But I would like to hear why you think God created mankind. Did He create some for theosis and some for damnation and if so, why?
The office is closed today...over my objection. I made the staff each give back one lump of coal!
And to all of you and yours,
Come, O faithful, let us raise our minds to things divine and behold the heavenly condescension that has appeared to us from above in Bethlehem.
May Christ our True God, whose Nativity we celebrate, through the intercessions of His holy and pure Mother, through the power of the life giving Cross, through the protection of the Angelic Powers, through the prayers of St. John the Baptist, the supplications of the Holy, Glorious and Most Honored and Praiseworthy Apostles, Martyrs, Fathers and Mothers of our Faith, and all the saints, have mercy on us and save us.
Through the prayers of our Holy Fathers, Lord Jesus Christ our God have mercy on us and save us!
But believing in talking snakes and donkeys and dead people getting up and walking away is not? :)
That's not fair, FK. In fact, God has everything to do with it. SFA states the orthodox doctrine that "Everyone is chosen to be God’s children", that everyone is invited and can be saved. If they are not saved it is because they rejected the invitation. This is in line with "God desires to save all men" and in agreement with Matthew 25.
The Protestant idea of "salvation" is not that Christ paid off your debt in full, but that he somehow owes you a limo ride too! The Church says, God bought everyone a ticket, so you can get on the train. If you don't get on the train, that's not God's doing.
"one individual"
Ελλα, βραι παιδακι μου!
ΧΩ ΧΩ ΧΩ, Κοστα μου! :)
Ah, but talking animals -- given their ubiquity in folklore and fairy tales and legend and Disney movies, etc., are the easiest thing in the world to picture! And -- I would venture -- that at the death of a loved one, the imagining of him getting up and walking is easier than the mental acceptance of the actual and awful death staring us in the face.
Maybe some people can believe only what they can picture, what they can understand from human experience.
Maybe some people can believe only what they can picture, what they can understand from human experience."
Very good, m!
We all believe what we want to believe. We can just as easily believe that someone likes us as it is to believe that someone hates us. That's why the Jews and Muslims and Hindus and others are equally 'at peace' with their beliefs.
If one can believe in talking snakes and people getting up after they died, or that one and the same individual can be both man and God, or dog and rabbit, or alive and dead, why is it "too difficult" to believe that God can be three and still be one, or that the Father gives existence to the Son and the Spirit, and yet that all three existed, outside of time, before all ages as one, simple and indivisible monad?
Believing that something exists outside of time is a serious logical stumbling block. In order for something to exist without time as a dimension brings up all sorts of quantum-like, chaotic and psychotic-like possibilities, like reducing three-dimentional humans to two-dimentional creatures that have length and width but no volume.
Without time, we can't even speak of existence, all events have become uncertain; they either occurred, are occurring, or have not even occurred. The logic breaks down and out reasoning ability stops.
This is where "faith" comes in, which is often dressed up in psuedo-logical language (such as John Chrysostom's homilies) or anthropomorphic terms for easier digestion, but it is still not rational. Trying to reason faith is, by necessity, pure sophism.
As Archbishop Hilairon (Afeyev) of the Russian Orthodox Church makes that perfectly clear when he says that spiritual ascent is "where words fall silent, where reason fades, where all human knowledge and comprehension cease, where God is."
My comment was not ridiculing human fancy, but showing that saying that something is "too difficult" to believe is an oxymoron. There is no limit to what man can believe, if he is willing!
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