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In Christ Alone (Happy reformation day)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExnTlIM5QgE ^ | Getty, Julian Keith; Townend, Stuart Richard;

Posted on 10/31/2010 11:59:22 AM PDT by RnMomof7

In Christ Alone lyrics

Songwriters: Getty, Julian Keith; Townend, Stuart Richard;

In Christ alone my hope is found He is my light, my strength, my song This Cornerstone, this solid ground Firm through the fiercest drought and storm

What heights of love, what depths of peace When fears are stilled, when strivings cease My Comforter, my All in All Here in the love of Christ I stand

In Christ alone, who took on flesh Fullness of God in helpless Babe This gift of love and righteousness Scorned by the ones He came to save

?Til on that cross as Jesus died The wrath of God was satisfied For every sin on Him was laid Here in the death of Christ I live, I live

There in the ground His body lay Light of the world by darkness slain Then bursting forth in glorious Day Up from the grave He rose again

And as He stands in victory Sin?s curse has lost its grip on me For I am His and He is mine Bought with the precious blood of Christ


TOPICS: Prayer; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: reformation; savedbygrace
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To: annalex
“By his own blood, entered once into the holies, having obtained eternal redemption.” Indeed. Ther Eucharist is not a separate sacrifice but that very sacrifice described in Hebrews 9, applied to us personally.”

You seem to have overlooked or misunderstand what “once” means.
Unlike the Jewish high priest, Christ heavenly offering obtained “eternal redemption” and did not need to be repeated or performed on earth.
It was offered and accepted “once”.

6,001 posted on 12/28/2010 1:05:34 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change

In this case doesn’t “Christ commanded his disciples to “keep doing this..” contradict your “once” point?


6,002 posted on 12/28/2010 1:13:49 AM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: Kolokotronis
Why do I say “doubtful”?
In reading the purported Letters of Ignatius I'm left with the impression they were a P.R. effort to turn him into a clone of Paul.
But somehow the authors couldn't quite pull it off.
And the author of the Romans letter becomes positively bizarre in his desire for death. to quote:

“May I enjoy the wild beasts that are prepared for me; and I pray that they may be found eager to rush upon me, which also I will entice to devour me speedily, and not deal with me as with some, whom, out of fear, they have not touched. But if they be unwilling to assail me, I will compel them to do so. Pardon me [in this] I know what is for my benefit. Now I begin to be a disciple. And let no one, of things visible or invisible, envy me that I should attain to Jesus Christ. Let fire and the cross; let the crowds of wild beasts; let tearings, breakings, and dislocations of bones; let cutting off of members; let shatterings of the whole body; and let all the dreadful torments of the devil come upon me: only let me attain to Jesus Christ.”
(Early Christian Writings)

Ah yez, tearings and breakings and and and well “all the dreadful torments”! How deliciously horrible to anticipate!

6,003 posted on 12/28/2010 1:33:51 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: D-fendr
“In this case doesn’t “Christ commanded his disciples to “keep doing this..” contradict your “once” point?”

Not at all unless you assert that the last supper with Christ was the first sacrifice of Christ.

What do you think Christ referred to when he said “this”?
“This” what?

6,004 posted on 12/28/2010 1:40:21 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change

Holy Eucharist.


6,005 posted on 12/28/2010 1:48:34 AM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr
Remembrance is what Jesus said. You use the term “Holy Eucharist”, when the giving of thanks was not the purpose of meal but a only a part of it and not the major part. Why not “Holy Anamnesin” if we are doing the “this” Christ spoke of?

No, not mutually exclusive but then I didn't say they were. Its a matter of emphasis in Christ's words not a non sequitur.

6,006 posted on 12/28/2010 1:56:17 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change
"In reading the purported Letters of Ignatius I'm left with the impression they were a P.R. effort to turn him into a clone of Paul."

+Paul? Well, if that was the purpose of the author of the Letters, he or she failed miserably, I'll give you that. As for the drama of Chapter V of the Letter to the Romans, well death in the arena was a dramatic thing. It was supposed to be from the Romans' pov. I'll speculate that +Ignatius knew that the persecutions were increasing. His co-worker and fellow bishop +Polycarp had already suffered martyrdom in the arena. We know that +Ignatius had written to the Smyrneans about it. In any event, you are of course free tp be;ieve some or all of the letters are spurious. We don't and they form a fundamental part of the rationale of our ecclesiology, though not so much that of the Latins.

Here's a piece by Fr. John Romanides, of blessed memory, on the Letters and the theology of +Ignatius of Antioch. Fr. John was a very conservative Orthodox theologian.

http://www.romanity.org/htm/rom.11.en.the_ecclesiology_of_st._ignatius_of_antioch.01.htm

6,007 posted on 12/28/2010 4:22:40 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: Kolokotronis

“We don’t and they form a fundamental part of the rationale of our ecclesiology, though not so much that of the Latins.”

The darnel is still a noxious weed, a pseudo-wheat, no matter how often its pronounced wheat.


6,008 posted on 12/28/2010 4:46:57 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: metmom

WELL PUT.


6,009 posted on 12/28/2010 4:51:21 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: caww

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!


6,010 posted on 12/28/2010 4:53:40 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: count-your-change

ABSOLUTELY INDEED.


6,011 posted on 12/28/2010 4:54:41 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: count-your-change

I think that Proddys are supposed to remember that

in the Vatican Daffynitionary

“once”

means billions of times.


6,012 posted on 12/28/2010 4:56:04 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: count-your-change
"The darnel is still a noxious weed, a pseudo-wheat, no matter how often its pronounced wheat."

Well, as I have said many times, you are completely free to believe whatever you want. There have been people who have rejected the writings and teaching of +Ignatius of Antioch for 1900 years. That there would be small elements of Protestantism, mostly located in America, which reject them in 2010 isn't a surprise. I am curious about something. Why do you, apparently, find it offensive that the teachings of +Ignatius of Antioch about Church structure form a basis of Orthodox Christian ecclesiology?

6,013 posted on 12/28/2010 4:59:22 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: metmom; boatbums

“”Instead of penance every time you commit the sin, how about repenting and not doing it any more?””

Of course,that goes without saying,but penance is also going beyond our own sins and asking forgiveness of the sins of others as well.

Do you pray for forgiveness of others or do you only care about yourself?

Here is something on penance from.
PAENITENTIAM AGERE
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_xxiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_j-xxiii_enc_01071962_paenitentiam_en.html
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE JOHN XXIII
ON THE NEED FOR THE PRACTICE
OF INTERIOR AND EXTERIOR PENANCE

Voluntary Acts as Part of External Penance

31. But besides bearing in a Christian spirit the inescapable annoyances and sufferings of this life, the faithful ought also take the initiative in doing voluntary acts of penance and offering them to God. In this they will be following in the footsteps of our divine Redeemer who, as the Prince of the Apostles said, “died once for sins, the Just for the unjust; that he might bring us to God. Put to death indeed in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit.”(31) “Since, therefore, Christ has suffered in the flesh,” it is only fitting that we be “armed with the same intent.”(32)

32. It is right, too, to seek example and inspiration from the great saints of the Church. Pure as they were, they inflicted such mortifications upon themselves as to leave us almost aghast with admiration. And as we contemplate their saintly heroism, shall not we be moved by God’s grace to impose on ourselves some voluntary sufferings and deprivations, we whose consciences are perhaps weighed down by so heavy a burden of guilt?

33. And who does not know that this sort of penance is the more acceptable to God in that it springs not from the natural infirmities of soul or body, but from a free and generous resolve of the will, and as such is a most welcome sacrifice in God’s sight?

29. But the faithful must also be encouraged to do outward acts of penance, both to keep their bodies under the strict control of reason and faith, and to make amends for their own and other people’s sins. St. Paul was caught up to the third heaven—he reached the summit of holiness—and yet he had no hesitation in saying of himself “I chastise my body and bring it into subjection.”(27) On another occasion he said: “They who belong to Christ have crucified their flesh with its passions and desires.”(28) St. Augustine issued the same insistent warning: “It is not enough for a man to change his ways for the better and to give up the practice of evil, unless by painful penance, sorrowing humility, the sacrifice of a contrite heart and the giving of alms he makes amends to God for all that he has done wrong.”(29)


6,014 posted on 12/28/2010 5:18:55 AM PST by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: boatbums

bb-””Or how about when we sin against someone we go to them and ask forgiveness of them and make amends to them for their loss, if possible? Isn’t that what Christ told us?””

We should do that if possible but there are times when we get angry at people we don’t know or will not likely ever see again like getting mad at someone while driving our cars,impatience at stores, etc..

bb-””This idea of “doing penance” comes from the “deep” thinkers of the “Church” who envisioned some “disruption in the force” kind of happening and how the sufferings of some could make up for this disruption and, all the while, totally leaving out the entire purpose of the cross of Christ.””

Sin disrupts nature and our relationship with God,bb. Scriptures tell us that even the heavens were disrupted by the fall of lucifer and prideful angels.

God wants restoration,BB

Here is something from the late Fr William Most that might help you
http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/most/getwork.cfm?worknum=160
Excerpt..
The image is a two-pan scales. The sinner takes from one pan what he has no right to have. The scale is out of balance. The Holiness of God wants it righted. How do that? If he stole some property, he begins to rebalance by giving it back. If he stole a pleasure, he begins to rebalance by giving up some pleasure of similar weight.

But we kept saying “begins”. For the imbalance from even one mortal sin is infinite, an Infinite Person is offended. So if the Father wanted a full rebalance - He did not have to - the only way to achieve it would be to send a divine Person to become man. That Person could produce an infinite value. Paul VI put the redemption into this framework.

All sinners of all times took an immense weight from the two-pan scales. But Jesus gave up far more than they had stolen, in His terrible passion.

So this is the price of redemption, the rebalancing of the objective order, which the Holiness of God willed. Rom 5:8 said,”God proved His love.” Yes, if someone desires the well-being of another, and starts out to procure it, but then runs into an obstacle - if a small obstacle will stop him, the love is small. If it takes a great obstacle, the love is great. But if that love could overcome even the immense obstacle of the terrible death of Jesus, that love is immense, beyond measure. It was not only the physical pain, but the rejection by those whom He loved that hurt Him. The pain of rejection can be measured by two things: 1) how severe is the form of the rejection; 2) how great is the love for the one who is rejecting. If someone jostles me in a crowd, that is a small thing. But if he wanted to kill me, that is far worse, and if he means to do it in the most hideous way possible - then the rejection is at the peak . And what is His love?: Inasmuch as He is a Divine Person, the love is infinite; in as much as we consider the love of His human will, able to overcome such a measureless obstacle - the love is beyond measure.


6,015 posted on 12/28/2010 5:39:43 AM PST by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: Kolokotronis; kosta50; metmom; MarkBsnr; stfassisi; annalex
Really. I didn't see that. If that's true, then it speaks volumes about the abysmal level of theological understanding here on FR. In any event, Latin is no more a "foreign language" in a discussion of Christian theology and praxis than is Greek or Hebrew or Slavonic. With all due respect, English is the language which is foreign to Christian theology.

Standing applause. The English translations that we do have are approximations (for better or worse) of the original Greek or the secondary languages of Latin and Slavonic.

6,016 posted on 12/28/2010 6:17:15 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: count-your-change
You seem to have overlooked or misunderstand what “once” means.

Unlike the Jewish high priest, Christ heavenly offering obtained “eternal redemption” and did not need to be repeated or performed on earth. It was offered and accepted “once”.

Not understanding Scripture seems to be a common malady amongst Catholics.

The sacrifice was over and done here on earth. His body died, His blood was shed. The curtain in the Temple was torn in two.

Jesus role in heaven now is that of a priest, not a sacrifice.

If Jesus is alive in heaven, as Catholics continually claim that all the saints are to hear and answer our prayers, then what is going on in heaven is relevant to what is going on on earth. If Christ were still dying here on earth, then He'd still be dying in heaven.

Since He is a priest in heaven, the ultimate reality, then He is a priest there, no longer a sacrifice.

I guess there is something about *Tetelestai*- *It is finished* that Catholics fail to comprehend. If they're claiming that the sacrifice is ongoing, then someone is lying. Either the Catholic church. Or Jesus.

6,017 posted on 12/28/2010 6:33:14 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: count-your-change; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; Diamond; ...
You seem to have overlooked or misunderstand what “once” means.

Unlike the Jewish high priest, Christ heavenly offering obtained “eternal redemption” and did not need to be repeated or performed on earth. It was offered and accepted “once”.

You know, I don't recall any Scripture where we are called to participate in His sacrifice.

The only participation we would have would be helping to kill Him, driving the nails in as it were. That's the only role we play in His death.

This nonsense about the priest sacrificing Jesus is ridiculous. Nobody sacrificed Him. He laid His life down voluntarily. Nobody took it from Him.

I wouldn't brag about participating in the sacrifice of Jesus and call participating in continually killing Him as *worship*.

6,018 posted on 12/28/2010 6:37:02 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: count-your-change

I guess they miss the past tense of the passages.


6,019 posted on 12/28/2010 6:40:04 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom; count-your-change; D-fendr; stfassisi; annalex; MarkBsnr; Natural Law; boatbums; ...

mm, the priest does not “sacrifice” Christ. In any event, do a Google search on “The Eighth Day”. The Liturgy does not occur here nor in time neither has the Mystical Supper nor the crucifixion nor the Resurrection happened more than once and always on the Eighth Day.


6,020 posted on 12/28/2010 7:47:00 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: Kolokotronis; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; ...

Then what, exactly, does the priest DO at the altar?

Is not the mass the participation in the sacrifice of Christ as other Catholics here have stated?

Or is the elaborate ceremony, which bears little resemblance to the Last Supper, just done in REMEMBRANCE after all?


6,021 posted on 12/28/2010 8:15:23 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
"Then what, exactly, does the priest DO at the altar?"

As a professed ex-Catholic you should already know this. If you don't then your rejection of Catholicism was based upon your own ignorance and not on any shortcomings of the Church.

6,022 posted on 12/28/2010 8:56:08 AM PST by Natural Law
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To: count-your-change

It can be called Mass, the Lord’s Supper, Holy Communion, and the Divine Liturgy. Eucharist is ancient term which describes the central act of Christian worship since the beginning of the Church.


6,023 posted on 12/28/2010 9:08:07 AM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: metmom; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww
The priest, mm, leads the community as the chief celebrant during the Divine Liturgy as the representative of the bishop. This is always the role of the priest during a Divine Liturgy. The Liturgy is more properly called the Holy Eucharist, which is from the Greek word εὐχαριστία, which means Thanksgiving. Here's a link to the Divine Liturgy in English. You can see the Thanksgiving aspects of the Liturgy all through it:

http://www.goarch.org/chapel/liturgical_texts/liturgy_hchc

"Is not the mass the participation in the sacrifice of Christ as other Catholics here have stated?"

We don't put it that way, mm, though I know the Latins do. Over the centuries, the Latin's understanding of the role of the lower clergy at the Eucharist, and hierarchs, has diverged some from what we believe. For us, the Divine Liturgy is, among other things, a participation in the Mystery of the Incarnation, not simply in the passion and the crucifixion. It is also a communal remembrance of the Incarnation. Here's a link to an article for non-Orthodox which speaks about the Divine Liturgy:

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7077

Participation in the Divine Liturgy is a sublime spiritual encounter with the Trinity. The following quote from the report of Prince Vladimir's envoys sent out to find a faith for the people of Kiev, is in part in the piece by Fr. Fitzgerald, but I'm posting it here for those who don't read the article:

"When we journeyed among the Bulgars, we beheld how they worship in their temple, called a mosque, while they stand ungirt. The Bulgarian bows, sits down, looks hither and thither like one possessed, and there is no happiness among them, but instead only sorrow and a dreadful stench. Their religion is not good. Then we went among the Germans, and saw them performing many ceremonies in their temples; but we beheld no glory there. Then we went on to Greece, and the Greeks led us to the edifices where they worship their God, and we knew not whether we were in heaven or on earth. For on earth there is no such splendour or such beauty, and we are at a loss how to describe it. We know only that God dwells there among men, and their service is fairer than the ceremonies of other nations. For we cannot forget that beauty. Every man, after tasting something sweet, is afterward unwilling to accept that which is bitter, and therefore we cannot dwell longer here."

6,024 posted on 12/28/2010 9:08:36 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: Natural Law; metmom
"Then what, exactly, does the priest DO at the altar?"

As a professed ex-Catholic you should already know this. If you don't then your rejection of Catholicism was based upon your own ignorance and not on any shortcomings of the Church.

Excellent point. This brings us back to Fulton Sheen's statement that there are many who hate what they believe the Church is; there are very few who actually hate what the Church is. Misunderstandings abound; if one leaves the Church because they don't understand it, does that actually make them culpable? Or are they the seeds strewn on the path?

6,025 posted on 12/28/2010 9:09:07 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Quix; metmom

“It’s a mystery”. That should cover all the bases.

One act divided into countless acts but one act. Understand? No? It’s a Mystery.

“1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: “The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different.” “In this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner.” (Catholic Catechism)

Understand yet? After Christ had made the offering in heaven, Hebrews 9, the sacrifice is still being performed but now the bloody sacrifice has become an unbloody one but “one and the same” only differing in “the manner of offering”.

The same yet different. A Mystery. Understand now?


6,026 posted on 12/28/2010 9:47:32 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change
I see that you guys read the Catechism in the same snippet-like fashion that you read Scripture. Let us put it into context:

The sacrificial memorial of Christ and of his Body, the Church

1362 The Eucharist is the memorial of Christ's Passover, the making present and the sacramental offering of his unique sacrifice, in the liturgy of the Church which is his Body. In all the Eucharistic Prayers we find after the words of institution a prayer called the anamnesis or memorial.

1363 In the sense of Sacred Scripture the memorial is not merely the recollection of past events but the proclamation of the mighty works wrought by God for men.184 In the liturgical celebration of these events, they become in a certain way present and real. This is how Israel understands its liberation from Egypt: every time Passover is celebrated, the Exodus events are made present to the memory of believers so that they may conform their lives to them.

1364 In the New Testament, the memorial takes on new meaning. When the Church celebrates the Eucharist, she commemorates Christ's Passover, and it is made present the sacrifice Christ offered once for all on the cross remains ever present.185 "As often as the sacrifice of the Cross by which 'Christ our Pasch has been sacrificed' is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out."186

1365 Because it is the memorial of Christ's Passover, the Eucharist is also a sacrifice. The sacrificial character of the Eucharist is manifested in the very words of institution: "This is my body which is given for you" and "This cup which is poured out for you is the New Covenant in my blood."187 In the Eucharist Christ gives us the very body which he gave up for us on the cross, the very blood which he "poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."188

1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit:

[Christ], our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper "on the night when he was betrayed," [he wanted] to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.189 1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory."190

1368 The Eucharist is also the sacrifice of the Church. The Church which is the Body of Christ participates in the offering of her Head. With him, she herself is offered whole and entire. She unites herself to his intercession with the Father for all men. In the Eucharist the sacrifice of Christ becomes also the sacrifice of the members of his Body. The lives of the faithful, their praise, sufferings, prayer, and work, are united with those of Christ and with his total offering, and so acquire a new value. Christ's sacrifice present on the altar makes it possible for all generations of Christians to be united with his offering.

In the catacombs the Church is often represented as a woman in prayer, arms outstretched in the praying position. Like Christ who stretched out his arms on the cross, through him, with him, and in him, she offers herself and intercedes for all men.

1369 The whole Church is united with the offering and intercession of Christ. Since he has the ministry of Peter in the Church, the Pope is associated with every celebration of the Eucharist, wherein he is named as the sign and servant of the unity of the universal Church. The bishop of the place is always responsible for the Eucharist, even when a priest presides; the bishop's name is mentioned to signify his presidency over the particular Church, in the midst of his presbyterium and with the assistance of deacons. The community intercedes also for all ministers who, for it and with it, offer the Eucharistic sacrifice:

Let only that Eucharist be regarded as legitimate, which is celebrated under [the presidency of] the bishop or him to whom he has entrusted it.191 Through the ministry of priests the spiritual sacrifice of the faithful is completed in union with the sacrifice of Christ the only Mediator, which in the Eucharist is offered through the priests' hands in the name of the whole Church in an unbloody and sacramental manner until the Lord himself comes.192

1370 To the offering of Christ are united not only the members still here on earth, but also those already in the glory of heaven. In communion with and commemorating the Blessed Virgin Mary and all the saints, the Church offers the Eucharistic sacrifice. In the Eucharist the Church is as it were at the foot of the cross with Mary, united with the offering and intercession of Christ.

1371 The Eucharistic sacrifice is also offered for the faithful departed who "have died in Christ but are not yet wholly purified,"193 so that they may be able to enter into the light and peace of Christ:

Put this body anywhere! Don't trouble yourselves about it! I simply ask you to remember me at the Lord's altar wherever you are.194 Then, we pray [in the anaphora] for the holy fathers and bishops who have fallen asleep, and in general for all who have fallen asleep before us, in the belief that it is a great benefit to the souls on whose behalf the supplication is offered, while the holy and tremendous Victim is present. . . . By offering to God our supplications for those who have fallen asleep, if they have sinned, we . . . offer Christ sacrificed for the sins of all, and so render favorable, for them and for us, the God who loves man.195

1372 St. Augustine admirably summed up this doctrine that moves us to an ever more complete participation in our Redeemer's sacrifice which we celebrate in the Eucharist:

This wholly redeemed city, the assembly and society of the saints, is offered to God as a universal sacrifice by the high priest who in the form of a slave went so far as to offer himself for us in his Passion, to make us the Body of so great a head. . . . Such is the sacrifice of Christians: "we who are many are one Body in Christ" The Church continues to reproduce this sacrifice in the sacrament of the altar so well-known to believers wherein it is evident to them that in what she offers she herself is offered.196

Mystery? Sure. If you are not into mysteries, tell us exactly how the Trinity works; and how Jesus could raise himself from the dead. Then give us the explanation of virgin birth, or resurrection of the body, or a Heaven out of time. It is true that the Latins have tried more than the Orthodox to explain things, which is somewhat irritating, but the attempt at explanation does not make the mystery any less a mystery, and any less a portion of the required Faith.

6,027 posted on 12/28/2010 10:06:09 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: count-your-change

Eucharist - Catacomb of San Callisto

Fractio Panis "the breaking of bread"), Greek Chapel, Catacomb of St. Priscilla, fresco, third century, on the arch over the altar tomb upon which the sacrament of the Eucharist was performed.

6,028 posted on 12/28/2010 10:09:34 AM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr

Why not “Holy Anamnesin” if we are doing the “this” Christ spoke of?


6,029 posted on 12/28/2010 10:10:03 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: metmom

Shirley not while having degrees in Greek. No, no nononono.
Well...maybe.


6,030 posted on 12/28/2010 10:13:07 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change

Why not Holy Eucharist if you are thankful?


6,031 posted on 12/28/2010 10:13:26 AM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr

I believe the second illustration was meant to show the multiplication of the fish and loaves. Yes? No?


6,032 posted on 12/28/2010 10:22:59 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change

Quite likely the fish and loaves are involved in the symbolism, they are quite frequently used as is the number seven in the count of participants. There are also representations of “fishers of men” and of course the symbol for fish was used early on.

Here’s an article on the Spirituality of the Catacombs:
http://www.catacombe.roma.it/en/spiritualita.html


6,033 posted on 12/28/2010 10:31:27 AM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr

You may call it whatever you choose. It was Christ who said “remembrance”, the prayer of thanks and blessing (eucharist) came to be applied to whole later.

And Paul added that so long as the meal took place the death of Christ was proclaimed. (1 Cor. 11:26)

So call it what you wish but what is more descriptive and reflective of Christ’s command.


6,034 posted on 12/28/2010 10:44:55 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change

The Church chose Eucharist long ago. Along with remembrance there is also thanks in the scriptural reference: “For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”

Paul also wrote concerning the Real Presence:
“The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?” …

“Therefore whoever eats the bread and drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. . . . For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself”

The Real Presence, the Holy Eucharist, is Christian worship from the beginning of the Church, from Christ’s command “This is my body which is for you. Do this..”.

When we reduce this sacrament, remove its sacredness, we have lost a great deal of what was and is Christian worship from the beginning.

And this change, this loss, is relatively very recent.


6,035 posted on 12/28/2010 11:01:06 AM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: MarkBsnr
Let's not be snippy about snippets! After-all your own reply was snippet-like.

But in order to avoid any accusation of Snippetfication I will find a text of the Catholic Catechism in the public domain and post it to you in its ENTIRETY plus notes and references and then you may choose the relevant portions, if any. O.K.?

And in that same spirit of Non-Snippetfication I post your entire comment, complete, unabridged and unsnippeted.

“I see that you guys read the Catechism in the same snippet-like fashion that you read Scripture. Let us put it into context:
The sacrificial memorial of Christ and of his Body, the Church

1362 The Eucharist is the memorial of Christ's Passover, the making present and the sacramental offering of his unique sacrifice, in the liturgy of the Church which is his Body. In all the Eucharistic Prayers we find after the words of institution a prayer called the anamnesis or memorial.

1363 In the sense of Sacred Scripture the memorial is not merely the recollection of past events but the proclamation of the mighty works wrought by God for men.184 In the liturgical celebration of these events, they become in a certain way present and real. This is how Israel understands its liberation from Egypt: every time Passover is celebrated, the Exodus events are made present to the memory of believers so that they may conform their lives to them.

1364 In the New Testament, the memorial takes on new meaning. When the Church celebrates the Eucharist, she commemorates Christ's Passover, and it is made present the sacrifice Christ offered once for all on the cross remains ever present.185 “As often as the sacrifice of the Cross by which ‘Christ our Pasch has been sacrificed’ is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out.”186

1365 Because it is the memorial of Christ's Passover, the Eucharist is also a sacrifice. The sacrificial character of the Eucharist is manifested in the very words of institution: “This is my body which is given for you” and “This cup which is poured out for you is the New Covenant in my blood.”187 In the Eucharist Christ gives us the very body which he gave up for us on the cross, the very blood which he “poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”188

1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit:

[Christ], our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper “on the night when he was betrayed,” [he wanted] to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.189 1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: “The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different.” “And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory.”190

1368 The Eucharist is also the sacrifice of the Church. The Church which is the Body of Christ participates in the offering of her Head. With him, she herself is offered whole and entire. She unites herself to his intercession with the Father for all men. In the Eucharist the sacrifice of Christ becomes also the sacrifice of the members of his Body. The lives of the faithful, their praise, sufferings, prayer, and work, are united with those of Christ and with his total offering, and so acquire a new value. Christ's sacrifice present on the altar makes it possible for all generations of Christians to be united with his offering.

In the catacombs the Church is often represented as a woman in prayer, arms outstretched in the praying position. Like Christ who stretched out his arms on the cross, through him, with him, and in him, she offers herself and intercedes for all men.

1369 The whole Church is united with the offering and intercession of Christ. Since he has the ministry of Peter in the Church, the Pope is associated with every celebration of the Eucharist, wherein he is named as the sign and servant of the unity of the universal Church. The bishop of the place is always responsible for the Eucharist, even when a priest presides; the bishop's name is mentioned to signify his presidency over the particular Church, in the midst of his presbyterium and with the assistance of deacons. The community intercedes also for all ministers who, for it and with it, offer the Eucharistic sacrifice:

Let only that Eucharist be regarded as legitimate, which is celebrated under [the presidency of] the bishop or him to whom he has entrusted it.191 Through the ministry of priests the spiritual sacrifice of the faithful is completed in union with the sacrifice of Christ the only Mediator, which in the Eucharist is offered through the priests’ hands in the name of the whole Church in an unbloody and sacramental manner until the Lord himself comes.192

1370 To the offering of Christ are united not only the members still here on earth, but also those already in the glory of heaven. In communion with and commemorating the Blessed Virgin Mary and all the saints, the Church offers the Eucharistic sacrifice. In the Eucharist the Church is as it were at the foot of the cross with Mary, united with the offering and intercession of Christ.

1371 The Eucharistic sacrifice is also offered for the faithful departed who “have died in Christ but are not yet wholly purified,”193 so that they may be able to enter into the light and peace of Christ:

Put this body anywhere! Don't trouble yourselves about it! I simply ask you to remember me at the Lord's altar wherever you are.194 Then, we pray [in the anaphora] for the holy fathers and bishops who have fallen asleep, and in general for all who have fallen asleep before us, in the belief that it is a great benefit to the souls on whose behalf the supplication is offered, while the holy and tremendous Victim is present. . . . By offering to God our supplications for those who have fallen asleep, if they have sinned, we . . . offer Christ sacrificed for the sins of all, and so render favorable, for them and for us, the God who loves man.195

1372 St. Augustine admirably summed up this doctrine that moves us to an ever more complete participation in our Redeemer's sacrifice which we celebrate in the Eucharist:

This wholly redeemed city, the assembly and society of the saints, is offered to God as a universal sacrifice by the high priest who in the form of a slave went so far as to offer himself for us in his Passion, to make us the Body of so great a head. . . . Such is the sacrifice of Christians: “we who are many are one Body in Christ” The Church continues to reproduce this sacrifice in the sacrament of the altar so well-known to believers wherein it is evident to them that in what she offers she herself is offered.196

Mystery? Sure. If you are not into mysteries, tell us exactly how the Trinity works; and how Jesus could raise himself from the dead. Then give us the explanation of virgin birth, or resurrection of the body, or a Heaven out of time. It is true that the Latins have tried more than the Orthodox to explain things, which is somewhat irritating, but the attempt at explanation does not make the mystery any less a mystery, and any less a portion of the required Faith.”

Such is not taught in the Scriptures.

6,036 posted on 12/28/2010 11:39:08 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change; D-fendr
"“Holy Anamnesin”

cyc, even I can spell Αναμνηση, and it is well known that I cannot spell worth beans. You got the form wrong. The form you posted would be used in "εις ανάμνησην" , In memory of. You should have posted "Holy Anamnese", so, H Θεια Αναμνηση, as an alternative to Η Θεία Ευχαριστία or Η Θεία Λειτουργία . There's probably no reason we cannot do that. But we don't.

It is good, however, to see you trying! :)

6,037 posted on 12/28/2010 12:08:10 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: count-your-change
Let's not be snippy about snippets! After-all your own reply was snippet-like.

Your posting was a snippet of the Catechism, much like many Protestant justifications for theology from Scriptures, and just about as valid. I posted enough of the surrounding Catechism to put it into context. Remember that it is possible justify all first millennium heresies from Scripture (although not the Calvinist heresies and the resulting derivatives).

Such is not taught in the Scriptures.

Many things are not taught in the Scriptures but the Protestant pantheon variously will believe in them - such as the Trinity, transubstantiation, the mission of St. Thomas the Unbeliever to India, and also various falsehoods such as the existence of full siblings of Jesus, the journeys of Jesus and Joseph of Arimathea to Britain, and so on.

6,038 posted on 12/28/2010 12:11:09 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Kolokotronis; metmom
From personal experience, I can echo the sentiments of Prince Vladimir’s envoys. I knew I was home when I attended my first Divine Liturgy. I perceived three things immediately.

1. The Holy Spirit was present. Palpably. Even over the din of restless children.

2. The people were there for one reason. To worship and take part in the eternal. Not because it’s just what they do on Sundays, not to be seen, not to take part in a Jesus pep rally and be patted on the back for their piety or their pretty singing. To worship.

3. The people loved each other. And they were genuinely welcoming to new faces.

I hadn’t perceived all three simultaneously in either the Southern Baptist church of my youth or the United Methodist church of my adulthood in years. Decades.

Isn’t it extraordinary, K? The Liturgical Practices of the Eastern Churches are nearly 2,000 years old – but they don’t get stale. THEY DON’T GET STALE. Protestant churches will change their order of worship multiple times in a year. They have those “contemporary” services.

The ancient Church is very much alive and well. In spite of the fact that it very generally speaking will not defend itself with swords or guns. Merely by the power of the Spirit and the Righteous Bodiless Powers of Heaven. And it is alive.

The Jews tried to abort it. They failed.

The Romans tried to squash it. They failed.

The Heretics tried to sidetrack it. They failed.

The Muslims tried to intimidate it, contain it, run it off, and kill it. They failed.

The Popes of Rome tried to subjugate it. They failed.

The Bolsheviks tried to purge it. They failed.

The Reformers still hilariously and needlessly try to “save” it. Gospodi pomiluj. They fail.

There is a reason for that.

Ps 23:4

Rom 8:31

We don't make judgements about where the Spirit is not. It goes where it will.

But we do know where to find it. We know where it is.

6,039 posted on 12/28/2010 1:06:33 PM PST by Yudan (Living comes much easier once we admit we're dying.)
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To: Kolokotronis
The form may not be correct for the posting but the literal “into the my remembrance” has the idea I wanted, “remembrance”. And that is form at Luke 22:19, which is the reason I pulled it up.

I haven't forgotten my “eis” when it should’ve read “estin”

6,040 posted on 12/28/2010 1:08:44 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change
"I haven't forgotten my “eis” when it should’ve read “estin” "

:)

Here, my friend, "εις", insofar as you were quoting +Luke, would have been just fine, as in "...εἰς τὴν ἐμὴν ἀνάμνησιν". It means "in". "Εστι", or "εστιν", means "is". But you are doing good. Keep it up. If, by the grace of God, you gain a working knowledge of Greek, it will open a whole world of scriptural understanding for you, which, aside from the spiritual benefits, will allow you to astonish your friends and confound your enemies!

6,041 posted on 12/28/2010 1:28:08 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: MarkBsnr

“Let’s not be snippy about snippets! After-all your own reply was snippet-like.
Your posting was a snippet of the Catechism, much like many Protestant justifications for theology from Scriptures, and just about as valid. I posted enough of the surrounding Catechism to put it into context. Remember that it is possible justify all first millennium heresies from Scripture (although not the Calvinist heresies and the resulting derivatives).

Such is not taught in the Scriptures.

Many things are not taught in the Scriptures but the Protestant pantheon variously will believe in them - such as the Trinity, transubstantiation, the mission of St. Thomas the Unbeliever to India, and also various falsehoods such as the existence of full siblings of Jesus, the journeys of Jesus and Joseph of Arimathea to Britain, and so on”

I can’t do it as well as the original but I’ll try:

Welll EXCUUUUUSSSSEEEE ME!!!!!

I will continue to get my theology from the Scriptures, it being ‘sharper than two edged sword’ and what others do is their affair.

I’m beginning to like this word, “snippets” so I’ll use it more with you. SNIPPETS YES!


6,042 posted on 12/28/2010 1:44:01 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: stfassisi
asking forgiveness of the sins of others as well.

We cannot be their Savior...only Christ can forgive them. We can pray their hearts and minds be receptive to the promptings of His Spirits convictions...but He will not forgive their sins from our voice to His...it must be their own voice who speaks to Him.

6,043 posted on 12/28/2010 1:53:39 PM PST by caww
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To: Kolokotronis

Would that we were all Hebrew and Greek scholars, we could argue on a more elevated level, but I truly do not have the time available to do a study justice and no interest in being another dilettante scribbler.

So in lieu of that I’ll rely on the Gray Beards of Greek (like yourself) to correct my errors.


6,044 posted on 12/28/2010 2:14:01 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Kolokotronis; annalex
"A significant number of (Roman) Catholics believe any "Catholic" Bible written since the Douay Rheims is the work of the Devil."

Well that's odd, but there are all sorts of odd religious ideas floating around these days.

Ask annalex.

"Regarding Catholics reading NIV, I agree it's a shame. What is worse, NAB is read in the Liturgy, that is an outright scandal."
Post #4,735

Further, many Catholics believe Vatican II was the work of the Devil.

6,045 posted on 12/28/2010 2:27:32 PM PST by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: Kolokotronis; count-your-change
".... Even the Latins admit these are fakes. But the letter to the Smyrneans, which I referenced, is pretty generally accepted as being authentic."

But which one? The Short, the Mid, or the Long Recension?

They can't all be authentic can they?

6,046 posted on 12/28/2010 2:31:58 PM PST by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: D-fendr; count-your-change; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; ...
Paul also wrote concerning the Real Presence: “The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?”

“Therefore whoever eats the bread and drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. . . . For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself”

The Real Presence, the Holy Eucharist, is Christian worship from the beginning of the Church, from Christ’s command “This is my body which is for you. Do this..

Are you telling us then that Jesus and His Disciples ate his real actual flesh and blood at the Last Supper, BEFORE He was crucified?

6,047 posted on 12/28/2010 2:51:20 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: MarkBsnr; count-your-change
Your posting was a snippet of the Catechism, much like many Protestant justifications for theology from Scriptures, and just about as valid. I posted enough of the surrounding Catechism to put it into context. Remember that it is possible justify all first millennium heresies from Scripture (although not the Calvinist heresies and the resulting derivatives).

Just like the Catholic church takes snippets from Scripture to justify ITS doctrine. A snippet here from John 6, and a snippet there from Matthew 1.

The amusing thing is, the Catholic snippets of Scripture are not only snippets out of context with the passage, but even snippets of one verse or sentence.

Catholicism is the master of snippeting.

6,048 posted on 12/28/2010 2:54:55 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Forest Keeper; kosta50; Kolokotronis; MarkBsnr; metmom; stfassisi; boatbums
What other reason could they have possibly had for immediately wanting to stone Him than for claiming to BE God?

How many times do you believe the words of Jesus were misunderstood, even by the Apostles?

6,049 posted on 12/28/2010 2:55:03 PM PST by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: metmom
Are you telling us then that Jesus and His Disciples ate his real actual flesh and blood at the Last Supper, BEFORE He was crucified?

It would certainly appear that they are. But of course that could not be possible...nor would Christ have endulged in this....He would have been breaking the law.

6,050 posted on 12/28/2010 2:56:46 PM PST by caww
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