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In Christ Alone (Happy reformation day)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExnTlIM5QgE ^ | Getty, Julian Keith; Townend, Stuart Richard;

Posted on 10/31/2010 11:59:22 AM PDT by RnMomof7

In Christ Alone lyrics

Songwriters: Getty, Julian Keith; Townend, Stuart Richard;

In Christ alone my hope is found He is my light, my strength, my song This Cornerstone, this solid ground Firm through the fiercest drought and storm

What heights of love, what depths of peace When fears are stilled, when strivings cease My Comforter, my All in All Here in the love of Christ I stand

In Christ alone, who took on flesh Fullness of God in helpless Babe This gift of love and righteousness Scorned by the ones He came to save

?Til on that cross as Jesus died The wrath of God was satisfied For every sin on Him was laid Here in the death of Christ I live, I live

There in the ground His body lay Light of the world by darkness slain Then bursting forth in glorious Day Up from the grave He rose again

And as He stands in victory Sin?s curse has lost its grip on me For I am His and He is mine Bought with the precious blood of Christ


TOPICS: Prayer; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: reformation; savedbygrace
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To: beezdotcom
Perhaps all I *really* was hoping to discover was more clarification of terminology in this thread - broad brush descriptions are so hard for me to follow, usually...but perhaps I will try to embrace them more in the future.

Mob emotion is rather, shall we say, overwhelming. Churchill was pretty good at it, if one listens to his speeches.

6,501 posted on 01/02/2011 4:58:28 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: 1000 silverlings
lol, it’s a new year and all but I still intend to shun people who called me scatological names last year and they know who they are.

Yeah, and if my mother had wheels, she'd be a wagon...

6,502 posted on 01/02/2011 4:59:55 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: HarleyD
Surely you are not saying that the Catholic Church has never been about people's souls and money? It should be noted how the Vatican was virtually penniless after the "Holy Wars" and the cash needed to build the Vatican. It was all that "jiggling" of cash that was the driver of the Reformation.

The Church saved Europe from the Muslims a couple of times, sure. The second attack on Venice was done at the invitation of whom??? And what did all of that cost???

Now, did the German bishops act in a truly Christian manner? Unfortunately, no. The Reformation was fuelled in part by that, certainly. It succeeded because of the drive for power by the German princes, but it started because of the practices of the Church, sure.

When will the Vatican open up the Vatican vaults so that we can see what's in it?

Being a little presumptuous? When is your church going to open its vaults so we can see what's in it? Or you, for that instance? Are you prepared to air all of your own dirty laundry to the world for the amusement and edification of every individual in the world?

6,503 posted on 01/02/2011 5:06:52 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Quix
Were you exercising your RCC fantasies skills and habits early in such a direction?

Nope.

May God lead you ever closer to Himself in the New Year.

I fervently pray He does and would return the favour to you and to all men.

6,504 posted on 01/02/2011 5:09:28 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: MarkBsnr
"Now, did the German bishops act in a truly Christian manner? Unfortunately, no. The Reformation was fuelled in part by that, certainly. It succeeded because of the drive for power by the German princes, but it started because of the practices of the Church, sure."

Times change, people don't. Luther did not originate his 95 theses, he merely pulled a publicity stunt by making the internal debates of the Church.

The Romans had a statement; "Qui Bono", for whom the benefit? Luther's sponsors, the German princes who sought both independence from the Holy Roman Empire and the assets of the Church benefited greatly. It is a shame that so many remain dupes of those princes.

6,505 posted on 01/02/2011 5:18:44 PM PST by Natural Law (Stay thirsty my friends)
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To: Natural Law
Times change, people don't. Luther did not originate his 95 theses, he merely pulled a publicity stunt by making the internal debates of the Church.

Well, I can't argue with that. The thing is that the justification of the posting became popular.

The Romans had a statement; "Qui Bono", for whom the benefit? Luther's sponsors, the German princes who sought both independence from the Holy Roman Empire and the assets of the Church benefited greatly. It is a shame that so many remain dupes of those princes.

Yup, the precedence goes back to Simon Magus for those who would use the Church for personal financial gains and power.

6,506 posted on 01/02/2011 5:25:35 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: MarkBsnr
Ooops, the unforeseen prophesy. :)
6,507 posted on 01/02/2011 5:38:27 PM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: esquirette
If you say so. BTW, the Church of my Baptism, the Eastern Orthodox Church, never reads the Revelation liturgically. It probably sits somewhere on a dust-covered shelf in the back of the churches, since the 9th century when it was included in the canon as part of the general compromise between the East and the West. Until then, it was ranked together with the Epistle of Barnabas and the Shepherd of Hermas as “questionable.”
6,508 posted on 01/02/2011 5:43:41 PM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: MarkBsnr
The Church saved Europe from the Muslims a couple of times, sure. M

According to the Catholic Church's catechism 841 it states:

So exactly what did the Church save Europe from?

It succeeded because of the drive for power by the German princes, but it started because of the practices of the Church, sure.

And where does the will of God fits into all of this?

Being a little presumptuous? When is your church going to open its vaults so we can see what's in it?

Actually, every Protestant church or organization that I have ever attended or support fully disclose their assets and liabilities at the end of each year. They usually do this in a fund raising letter. :O)

As for me, how much I make, how much my wife make, and just about all of our assets are floating around on the Internet which people who know us have been able to piece together. Trust me. My net worth is a sad, sad story.

6,509 posted on 01/02/2011 5:43:41 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: MarkBsnr; metmom
It's called mob emotion

I think that sums it up very well, Mark.

How do you differentiate such worship form, say, a rock concert, the electric guitars and all...?

6,510 posted on 01/02/2011 5:49:10 PM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: HarleyD
The Church saved Europe from the Muslims a couple of times, sure. M

According to the Catholic Church's catechism 841 it states:

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[330]

So exactly what did the Church save Europe from?

The invading forces of these very same Muslims.

It succeeded because of the drive for power by the German princes, but it started because of the practices of the Church, sure.

And where does the will of God fits into all of this?

Where it always does.

Being a little presumptuous? When is your church going to open its vaults so we can see what's in it?

Actually, every Protestant church or organization that I have ever attended or support fully disclose their assets and liabilities at the end of each year. They usually do this in a fund raising letter. :O)

As for me, how much I make, how much my wife make, and just about all of our assets are floating around on the Internet which people who know us have been able to piece together. Trust me. My net worth is a sad, sad story.

Actually, each parish and diocese does the same. I'm not sure of how much of my net worth is on the Internet, but I suspect that if your records are out there, so are mine. I'm not going to make Forbes anytime soon, either...

But what's in the Vatican vaults? There is a recent effort begun to start to clean them out, but I'm not sure of any of the details.

6,511 posted on 01/02/2011 5:53:20 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: MarkBsnr
Correct. On Christmas Day, I had the honour of reading both the first and second readings (Isaiah and Paul). The congregation sat. I am a simple layman. The Gospel was read by our permanent deacon after being blessed by our priest and the entire congregation stood

Obviously, there is a ranking, just as there is in Judaism, where the Torah (the Five Books of Moses) take precedence over all other parts of the Tanakh.

6,512 posted on 01/02/2011 5:54:20 PM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: kosta50
How do you differentiate such worship form, say, a rock concert, the electric guitars and all...?

I'll listen to some Rammstein or Primal Fear and let you know what I come up with. :)

6,513 posted on 01/02/2011 6:01:21 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: beezdotcom; MarkBsnr; metmom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Charismatic_Renewal Gee, the Cathoic Charismatic Renewal, aka "anything to get people to come back to or stay in the Church. Pretty sad. The Catholic Church has done some really strange things (guitar masses, clown masses, lecture hall churches, etc.) in the last 46 years or so, much of it was bad imitation of Protestantism (an d nothing is worse than a bad imitation).

Carry on.

Okay, and you are dismissed.

6,514 posted on 01/02/2011 6:02:10 PM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: kosta50; beezdotcom
Okay, and you are dismissed.

Are you really pulling rank on this dweeb?

6,515 posted on 01/02/2011 6:10:05 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: presently no screen name
Sure! Yet you are so concerned about them being laughed at

Why are they being laughed at?

With all your reading and commenting on God's Word, you didn't know God's own have a relationship with Him? But there are many who don't care to KNOW Him...

All my relationships are verifiable. I hear people tell me they have a relationship with all sorts of imaginary things. Until they can show me what they have a relationship with I refuse to accept their "witness".

There are just way too many people claiming they know the truth, which differs just about form everyone else's.

"Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

See, this is the type of intolerance that is common to so many Protestants. Unless it is their way it is damned, cursed, and vilified. For one I don't say "Lord, Lord." For two, even when I was a practicing Christian I never would have thrown that judgment into anyone's face, because that's not my judgment to make. But some protesters, while making fun of Catholic priests, act as "alter Christus" in more ways than one.

6,516 posted on 01/02/2011 6:19:41 PM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: Quix
What a predictable pile of weasel worded rationalizations!

The only weasel worded rationalizations is calling the facts I gave you "weasel worded rationalizations," Q.

6,517 posted on 01/02/2011 6:25:03 PM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: Quix
Amongst those truly seeking God...will learn whatever they should from my humble words

Humble? Self-flattery is not humility, Q. And neither are oversized letters in glaringly contrasting color.

6,518 posted on 01/02/2011 6:28:37 PM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: Quix

Stick head in the sand. Preted the sun doens’t shine.


6,519 posted on 01/02/2011 6:30:17 PM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: metmom; MarkBsnr; beezdotcom
Notorious, yes. Gracious, not so much....

Hmmm, spoken like a true "gracious" Protestant (even though you seem to deny being one).

6,520 posted on 01/02/2011 6:33:24 PM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: kosta50; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; ...
??FACTS??

YOUR ABSURDITIES JIGGLE ME TUMMY

YOUR ABSURDITIES
JIGGLE ME TUMMY!


NEW YEAR'S
FARCE
STRIKES EARLY!

6,521 posted on 01/02/2011 6:39:56 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: kosta50
Photobucket

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh
MORE
of your youthful
"wisdom?"

6,522 posted on 01/02/2011 6:43:37 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: MarkBsnr; beezdotcom
Are you really pulling rank on this dweeb?

Not really. My other choice was "take a hike!" :)

6,523 posted on 01/02/2011 6:43:52 PM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: kosta50; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; ...

Naw.

WE Proddys don’t need to copy such RC/Orthodox habits.

We’ll leave that to y’all.

I’m curious you think

IS STRONGER,

your

habitual polarity response

OR

your current existential angst and agnosticism


6,524 posted on 01/02/2011 6:46:05 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix
Yes, Q, Jewish Encyclopedia writes refrenced facts. You seem to prefer the head-in-the-sand apporach.


6,525 posted on 01/02/2011 6:47:45 PM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: kosta50; Quix

I didn’t know that you wear brown loafers, Quix.


6,526 posted on 01/02/2011 6:51:10 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: kosta50

How long have you had such fantasies?


6,527 posted on 01/02/2011 6:51:23 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix
your current existential angst

Having fun with random word generator? or just pretending to by a psychoanalyst?

6,528 posted on 01/02/2011 6:51:35 PM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: Quix
Fantasies? Are you a fantasy? Not mine. Okay, I tried to be gracious...and cut you some slack Is this more like you?


6,529 posted on 01/02/2011 6:55:20 PM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: MarkBsnr; Quix

Suede too. :)


6,530 posted on 01/02/2011 6:57:41 PM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: kosta50

At least they’re not blue...


6,531 posted on 01/02/2011 7:11:04 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: kosta50

Cute ostrich.

Much appreciate y’all’s character displays.

Is the peacock next?


6,532 posted on 01/02/2011 7:11:53 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: kosta50
Not really. My other choice was "take a hike!"

More grace, I see. What, again, am I supposed to learn here?
6,533 posted on 01/02/2011 7:25:35 PM PST by beezdotcom
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To: MarkBsnr
Are you really pulling rank on this dweeb?

I'll take the high road, then.
6,534 posted on 01/02/2011 7:27:58 PM PST by beezdotcom
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To: beezdotcom; kosta50

Kosta retired a senior commissioned officer in the US armed forces, by the way. Your remarks are how we got here in the first place.


6,535 posted on 01/02/2011 7:34:48 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: MarkBsnr; kosta50
Kosta retired a senior commissioned officer in the US armed forces, by the way.

That's great, and I appreciate his service, in every way except the presumed relevance to this thread.

Your remarks are how we got here in the first place.

This makes no sense, but maybe I'm not sure what you mean by "here". I only posted to this thread when I saw a broad-brush conflation of "mob emotion" and "Protestantism". My remarks, while acerbic, certainly didn't warrant "dweeb" or "take a hike" in response.

Perhaps I need to become more familiar with this term "graciousness" I keep seeing bandied about. It must not mean what I thought it meant.
6,536 posted on 01/02/2011 7:45:45 PM PST by beezdotcom
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To: beezdotcom

What were you supposed to learn? Some civility I hope.


6,537 posted on 01/02/2011 7:47:22 PM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: kosta50
What were you supposed to learn? Some civility I hope.

Were you being accidentally or deliberately ironic?
6,538 posted on 01/02/2011 7:52:04 PM PST by beezdotcom
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To: beezdotcom; MarkBsnr
My remarks, while acerbic, certainly didn't warrant "dweeb" or "take a hike" in response

My remarks didn't warrant "Carry on."

6,539 posted on 01/02/2011 7:52:24 PM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: beezdotcom

There was no irony, just equal measure.


6,540 posted on 01/02/2011 7:53:42 PM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: Quix
Is the peacock next?

Would you like a peacock?

6,541 posted on 01/02/2011 7:56:19 PM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: kosta50
There was no irony, just equal measure.

Accidental, then.
6,542 posted on 01/02/2011 7:56:25 PM PST by beezdotcom
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ph


6,543 posted on 01/02/2011 7:59:39 PM PST by xone
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To: kosta50
My remarks didn't warrant "Carry on."

I interrupted the proceedings with my comment. I could then either have said "as you were", "carry on", "back to your regularly scheduled program", or any number of other phrases to indicate "my interruption is now over, please continue."

I'll grant you that it was certainly received less convivially than that.
6,544 posted on 01/02/2011 8:00:04 PM PST by beezdotcom
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To: kosta50

Naw.

Not at all my style.

Which . . . obviously, y’all seem to know little about.


6,545 posted on 01/02/2011 8:01:13 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: kosta50; Kolokotronis; stfassisi; MarkBsnr; boatbums; maryz; metmom
FK: In my translation I don't see any conflict in word or intent: Deut. 30:14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

The Hebrew version says "so that you may do it." And what is the "it " in this case?

It could be said that the "it" is the word of God given through Moses. The verses that follow the instant one give context:

Deut. 30:15-16 : 15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

Or, we could say that "doing it" is loving the Lord your God. Paul notes that we love the Lord by faith. Just because that fact isn't emphasized in that particular passage in Deuteronomy doesn't mean that Paul isn't allowed to note it. Paul isn't inventing a new truth that wasn't already there. All those who have EVER loved the Lord have done so by faith.

FK: satan's will is certainly subjugated to God's, as we see at the beginning of Job. But I think whether we should characterize satan as "doing God's will" is a matter of semantics. In one sense "yes" because nothing can overrule God's will and everything that God wills, happens. In another sense, "no" because of course God hates all sin and is the author of none of it.

I hope you realize that this is untenable. If it is merely semantics, then it is insignificant (something like Clinton's "is"), a way to wiggle out of a logical corner. You can't serve two masters, not even the devil. If God is in charge than what's with the final "battle" between the good and evil? A show?

It's tenable because the base statements are insufficiently specific. When you use the phrase "doing God's will" you could legitimately mean very different things since the concept of what constitutes "God's will" is not simple. What you might call my "wiggling" :) is simply my attempt to cover the most likely possibilities all at once. As issues are raised with more specificity, so will my responses be.

And what is not due to God?

"Due to God" could mean different things, so it depends. :)

Do I take it then that your Church gives thanks to God for the tsunamis, the Holocaust, and the like? Do you thank him when someone falls ill or dies? It's funny that I find the Protestant attitude as a direct opposite of showing any delight in being weak, or giving thanks to God for persecutions, insults, and so on.

I agree that very few of us appear to take the literal attitude of Paul in 2 Cor. on this. But one example would be that we often give thanks when an elderly person who is in pain is brought home by God. (We consider physical death to occur at an independently predestined time by God. Our days are numbered by God quite literally.)

Another thing to consider is that while we may not give individual thanks for natural disasters and such, we DO give thanks for God executing His perfect plan, of which natural disasters are a part. So, in a general sense I think we do give thanks for everything including what we commonly perceive as "bad", but maybe not so much on a specific level.

So, when do Reformers celebrate the Andrea Yates Day?

I suppose every time we give thanks to God for being the Alpha and Omega.

FK: I still disagree that everything is God's "doing" just because He wills it.

LOL! Does that include the Bible?

Some things God wills He does, like the Bible, or the Flood. Other things He wills He does not "do", like the betrayal of Jesus and the murders by Andrea Yates. And before anyone jumps on me for saying that God willed Yates' murders :) just consider the following: Did God will the crucifixion, or did the crucifixion thwart God's will, or did He have no opinion about it and accepted it as man gave it to Him?


6,546 posted on 01/02/2011 9:35:59 PM PST by Forest Keeper ((It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.))
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To: beezdotcom; MarkBsnr
Then you could have said “may I interject?” or words to that effect. You are more than welcome to post your comments and “jump” into a conversation; it's an open forum. But do understand that neither I nor anyone else here needs your permission to continue, okay?
6,547 posted on 01/02/2011 9:41:24 PM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: Quix
Naw. Not at all my style. Which . . . obviously, y’all seem to know little about.

Yeah, and I plan to keep it that way.

6,548 posted on 01/02/2011 9:42:28 PM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: kosta50
Why are they being laughed at?

Are you getting dizzy? That's what YOU claim.

Until they can show me what they have a relationship with I refuse to accept their "witness".

Refuse to accept? LOL! Do you think I'm asking you to accept anything? I could give a flip what you accept or don't. It's not rocket science knowing the blind can't see . Darkness appeals to some.

There are just way too many people claiming they know the truth, which differs just about form everyone else's.

What are you concerned about anyone else for? Do you enjoy going around checking on who knows The Truth when you don't even know God. I'd put that in the asinine category.

See, this is the type of intolerance that is common to so many Protestants. Unless it is their way it is damned, cursed, and vilified.

Intolerance? 'their way'? LOL!! That was SCRIPTURE!

For two, even when I was a practicing Christian...

Two years a practicing Christian and you didn't know that Scripture. Do you have any witness that you were a practicing witness - so far there are no signs of it.

because that's not my judgment to make.

Jesus told us what He will say to those who don't know Him and you express concern about 'laughing' and 'priests' and Until they can show me what they have a relationship with I refuse to accept their "witness".. Have fun!
6,549 posted on 01/02/2011 9:44:18 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: kosta50; presently no screen name
See, this is the type of intolerance that is common to so many Protestants most Catholics, particularly the FRoman variety. Unless it is their way it is damned, cursed, and vilified.

Don't forget.....

"Outside the Church there is no salvation" 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

6,550 posted on 01/02/2011 9:53:12 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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