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In Christ Alone (Happy reformation day)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExnTlIM5QgE ^ | Getty, Julian Keith; Townend, Stuart Richard;

Posted on 10/31/2010 11:59:22 AM PDT by RnMomof7

In Christ Alone lyrics

Songwriters: Getty, Julian Keith; Townend, Stuart Richard;

In Christ alone my hope is found He is my light, my strength, my song This Cornerstone, this solid ground Firm through the fiercest drought and storm

What heights of love, what depths of peace When fears are stilled, when strivings cease My Comforter, my All in All Here in the love of Christ I stand

In Christ alone, who took on flesh Fullness of God in helpless Babe This gift of love and righteousness Scorned by the ones He came to save

?Til on that cross as Jesus died The wrath of God was satisfied For every sin on Him was laid Here in the death of Christ I live, I live

There in the ground His body lay Light of the world by darkness slain Then bursting forth in glorious Day Up from the grave He rose again

And as He stands in victory Sin?s curse has lost its grip on me For I am His and He is mine Bought with the precious blood of Christ


TOPICS: Prayer; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: reformation; savedbygrace
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To: kosta50

Wow...who’d a thunk a typo that I let stand as a little humorous nudge would have stung so much that so many days later it gets brought up again. Did I not apologize for hurting your tender feelings once already? Are these “jokes” now meant for some payback? How old are you?


6,551 posted on 01/02/2011 9:56:49 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: Quix; metmom
And I'm positive that everytime during the RC Mass, every heart is tuned to only God, every prayer is always heartfelt, every "And unto you" is meant, every "peace be unto you" is earnestly spoken and every communicant is pure as the driven snow. But, God forbid if even one turns up their hand(s) towards Heaven!


6,552 posted on 01/02/2011 10:13:35 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: boatbums

“But, God forbid if even one turns up their hand(s) towards Heaven!”

Now that’s just silly.

And it’s assuming to pass judgment on a whole crowd of people by how they hold their hands in church.

I actually worship daily in my Catholic Church and I know that—unless you forgot to put a sarc/ tag on this comment—we are NOT looking askance at how our neighbors in the pew about how they are holding their hands during worship.

“...every communicant is pure as the driven snow”.

Really? You’re “positive” that is the case “everytime (sic) during the RC Mass”?


6,553 posted on 01/02/2011 10:35:37 PM PST by Running On Empty ((The three sorriest words: "It's too late"))
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To: kosta50

BTW,

IF you were a flag officer . . . you likely came across UFO information.

Perhaps even as an O6.

Anything you can share about such phenomena?


6,554 posted on 01/03/2011 4:45:06 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: presently no screen name

INDEED.


6,555 posted on 01/03/2011 4:46:23 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: boatbums
Photobucket

6,556 posted on 01/03/2011 4:49:40 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: presently no screen name
Do you think I'm asking you to accept anything?

No, you are just telling me stories.

It's not rocket science knowing the blind can't see.

Last time I checked blind faith is a virtue (i.e. blessed are those who believe but did not see...)

What are you concerned about anyone else for?

It has to do with some trying to sell me a story and then sending me to hell if I don't. Other than that I care about other people. I would expect a Christian to understand that. Then, again, maybe not.

Do you enjoy going around checking on who knows The Truth when you don't even know God.

Is that a "crime"? Do you believe everything people say? What does that have to do with "knowing" God?

I'd put that in the asinine category.

You would.

That was SCRIPTURE!

To you. And if it is, it will not be you passing the judgment whom the Lord knows and whom he doesn't. It would be his judgment to make, not yours.

[For two, even when I was a practicing Christian...] Two years a practicing Christian and you didn't know that Scripture.

Did I say for two years? I am afraid your reading comprehension is flawed.

Jesus told us what He will say to those who don't know Him

He didn't say they didn't know him. It's what they didn't do. Besides, he dind' say to which one of us he would say that. You are assuming it would be me but not you. Why? because you say "Lord, Lord?"


6,557 posted on 01/03/2011 6:44:24 AM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: metmom; presently no screen name
See, this is the type of intolerance that is common to so many Protestants most Catholics, particularly the FRoman variety...Don't forget....."Outside the Church there is no salvation" 84

You are right. Whether there is no "salvation" outside the Church or Christ, it doesn't matter. Stated as a matter of fact it's just the arrogance of Christianity...not that Christianity stands alone in arrogance. 

It can be a comforting belief to some, boatbums—but only when expressed as a sincere personal hope rather than a condemnation of others.

6,558 posted on 01/03/2011 6:55:46 AM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: kosta50
But do understand that neither I nor anyone else here needs your permission to continue, okay?

You chose to interpret that comment in the rudest possible way. That, I DO understand.
6,559 posted on 01/03/2011 7:04:00 AM PST by beezdotcom
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To: boatbums
Wow...who’d a thunk a typo that I let stand as a little humorous nudge would have stung so much that so many days later it gets brought up again

It wasn't a "typo," by your own admission.  It was a deliberate play on words with an uncharitable connotation for no other reason except that I don't share your beliefs. It didn't sting, as I said, it merely unmasked a different boatbums I knew on FR until then.

Did I not apologize for hurting your tender feelings once already?

I never asked for apology, and I told you so. To forgive is one thing; to forget is another.  I am under no obligation to forget.

 Are these “jokes” now meant for some payback?

I don't plan any personal jokes on you, boatbums, so what "payback" are you talking about?

 How old are you?

There you go, again...

6,560 posted on 01/03/2011 7:09:56 AM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: beezdotcom; MarkBsnr
You chose to interpret that comment in the rudest possible way. That, I DO understand.

Do you? Maybe next time you ought to try saying something like "Sorry for the interruption, now please continue your discussion"? I bet you won't be "misunderstood."

6,561 posted on 01/03/2011 7:18:39 AM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: kosta50
Do you? Maybe next time you ought to try saying something like "Sorry for the interruption, now please continue your discussion"? I bet you won't be "misunderstood."

The only thing I am likely to change is the frequency of my use of any idioms with you. We use it here (work, church and home) all the time, in a mixed military and civilian environment. Nobody yet has taken such umbrage at it.

Perhaps it was because you were already previously agitated in this thread, or perhaps your personal history predisposes you to dislike that idiom. I don't know, but I don't plan to spend a lot of time agonizing what common colloquialism will set off which particular poster in a given thread.

I have duly noted you take that particular expression in one and only one manner. If I deign to again enter a thread where you post, I will do my Christian duty to avoid presenting you with that stumbling block.
6,562 posted on 01/03/2011 7:30:57 AM PST by beezdotcom
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To: boatbums
And I'm positive that everytime during the RC Mass, every heart is tuned to only God, every prayer is always heartfelt, every "And unto you" is meant, every "peace be unto you" is earnestly spoken and every communicant is pure as the driven snow. But, God forbid if even one turns up their hand(s) towards Heaven!

This is not about men reaching up to God; it's about mob emotion and waving about like kelp in the current.

6,563 posted on 01/03/2011 10:38:59 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: kosta50
Last time I checked blind faith is a virtue (i.e. blessed are those who believe but did not see...)

It's not blind faith for me - I KNOW God who I believe in. And those that don't know God are blinded by their 'own wants' - they NEED to see to believe or have another god. No virtue for anyone not knowing HIM!

It has to do with some trying to sell me a story .

You have it backwards. I'm not selling anything - I was bought with a price - I am saved and go directly to heaven. It's unsettling for some to hear but that's not my problem. I don't live by the dictates of 'man' but rejoice in the Words of my Savior.

and then sending me to hell if I don't

That's liberal speak, blaming others. Liberals don't want to be held accountable for the own decisions. They want what others have but won't do what other do that have it. In this world, we see that happening but not in HIS KINGDOM!! You read the words of Jesus. Those that didn't Know Him; He doesn't know either - they aren't HIS OWN.

Other than that I care about other people. I would expect a Christian to understand that Then, again, maybe not..

Jesus says 'His own' hear and obey. And His own will be with Him for eternity. I would expect a Christian to hear and obey HIS WORDS ALONE and UNDERSTAND that! And we know from His Word, many will not - since only a few enter the narrow gate. So obviously, even 'the religious' along with non believers - have a disobedience problem - they/man know better. Nothing new under the sun.

Is that a "crime"?

Is going to hell a crime?

Do you believe everything people say? What does that have to do with "knowing" God?

My beliefs don't come from 'man', so I could give a flip what people say. It has everything to do with 'knowing' God - because it is HIM I care to KNOW - where ALL TRUTH resides.

I'd put that in the asinine category.......You would.

You got that right! I have my priorities in order - JESUS/HIS WORD is #1.

That was SCRIPTURE! .......To you. And if it is, it will not be you passing the judgment whom the Lord knows and whom he doesn't. It would be his judgment to make, not yours.

So it's not SCRIPTURE to you? I'm not passing judgment - I'm passing HIS WORDS - Words that speak of judgment and apply to everyone! He DID NOT leave us NOT knowing. His disciples spoke of the judgment - you think anyone said 'you are judging me'. LOL! WHO is the JUDGE? HE already told us everything that applies to HIS KINGDOM. And one is - to KNOW Him through HIS WORD and have a relationship with HIM like He did with HIS Father. His own WANT to know HIM more and more and do so through HIS WORD, Who He is.

EARS closed, EYES closed - walk into the pit
HEAR and OBEY - walk on the narrow path to be with HIM here and for eternity.

It's ALL about JESUS - ONLY JESUS!!

6,564 posted on 01/03/2011 12:40:12 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: annalex; boatbums; The Theophilus; metmom; Dr. Eckleburg
Where did you get that? The Early Church (pre-Constantine) was far less centralized than the Roman Catholic Church is today, for reasons of being underground for most of its early life and the logisticsl impossibility of robust communication. These were local Churches in obedience to their bishops, and most important Churches were not even the Church in Rome. But they were all Catholic Chruches because they believed the same thing; when one or more Churches deviated in anything doctrinal, an apostle would write the letter to fix the problem, and after the passing on of the Apostles, a figure of inherited apostolic authority would do the correcting, or a Church Council would be held. This was nothing like the Protestant system os self-appointed pastors and divergent doctrines.

The above, while fictional, does not begin to meet the standard set by Lewis Carroll.

You would have no organized Church and no Papacy prior to Constantine. I agree, but you have strayed from the "official" account.

6,565 posted on 01/03/2011 1:10:57 PM PST by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: kosta50; presently no screen name; boatbums
Then no rituals, not even waving of the hands, is necessary, no works, not even going to church. I just find it disingenuous when Protestants make fun of Catholics/Orthodox and their "empty rituals", while they themselves wave aimlessly in the air as if saying "I am here!" to an omnipresent omniscient God.

FYI This is a Catholic Mass

6,566 posted on 01/03/2011 1:47:18 PM PST by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: MarkBsnr; kosta50
Excellent post; the Tridentine Mass would fit into your description; the NO Mass is being massaged in the same way that the NT was massaged, to fit the beliefs of the Church, and not vice versa, as the liberals desperately wanted.

The Tridentine Mass was the Novus Ordo of 1570.

6,567 posted on 01/03/2011 1:57:49 PM PST by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: MarkBsnr; metmom
It's not so much the who. It's the manner. The Catholic Charismatics are not equivalent either in belief or in form to the Pentecostal or other Protestant groups whom one may think of in this fashion. Catholics believe in revenence and homage during worship, not behaving like soccer or rugby crowds.

Are your eyes brown?

Of course Catholic "revenence" (sic) may be a Catholicspeak word which means "wild and crazy guys".


6,568 posted on 01/03/2011 2:16:31 PM PST by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: MarkBsnr; HarleyD
When will the Vatican open up the Vatican vaults so that we can see what's in it?

Being a little presumptuous? When is your church going to open its vaults so we can see what's in it? Or you, for that instance? Are you prepared to air all of your own dirty laundry to the world for the amusement and edification of every individual in the world?

Mark is right. Why should the Vatican open it's vaults even in the situation involving Vatican Bank scandals?

Lets ask for something which the Vatican should have no moral or legal opposition to. For instance, the Vatican Archives! After all, the Vatican has nothing to hide.


6,569 posted on 01/03/2011 2:37:06 PM PST by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: OLD REGGIE
The Tridentine Mass was the Novus Ordo of 1570.

Well, kinda sorta.

6,570 posted on 01/03/2011 2:59:52 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: OLD REGGIE
Of course Catholic "revenence" (sic) may be a Catholicspeak word which means "wild and crazy guys".

Umm, reverence, of course. I'm not recognizing the two in this photoshopped pic.

6,571 posted on 01/03/2011 3:01:48 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: OLD REGGIE
Mark is right. Why should the Vatican open it's vaults even in the situation involving Vatican Bank scandals?

Well, the vault in question is not where the Vatican Bank is located.

Lets ask for something which the Vatican should have no moral or legal opposition to. For instance, the Vatican Archives! After all, the Vatican has nothing to hide.

I was under the impression that they were being slowly opened. Is it the speed to which you object?

I must say that I am very impressed with the state of your teeth - a little yellow around the canines, but appearing to be in very good shape.

6,572 posted on 01/03/2011 3:04:33 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: OLD REGGIE; presently no screen name; boatbums
FYI This is a Catholic Mass

Sure, in order to keep Catholics from leaving the Church in huge numbers, the RCC finally gave in to the the mostly Filipino and Latino demands in 2003 to allow this. These people make up 120 million (10%) of Romes' 1.2 billion members.

In America these offshoots come mostly from Notre Dame and Duquesne ultra liberal centers.

None of this changes the fact that this is unrecognizable to the Church in the East or the West, at least from the 3rd century onward, or that it is pagan-like worship.

6,573 posted on 01/03/2011 3:46:26 PM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: OLD REGGIE; MarkBsnr
The Tridentine Mass was the Novus Ordo of 1570.

LOL! OR you can do better than that. The TLM was the Roman Mass since the end of the 6th century, instituted by Pope St. Gregory I (aka known as the Great). At Trent it was made mandatory (or "ordinary") for all except for some very ancient liturgies, such as the Mozarabic (in Spain), etc.

Prior to TLM, the Latin Church used Alexandrian and Antiochan (Eastern) liturgies. And up to the 3rd century its liturgy was in Greek.

6,574 posted on 01/03/2011 3:52:48 PM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: kosta50
Sure, in order to keep Catholics from leaving the Church in huge numbers,

So they use manipulation to keep members?

In America these offshoots come mostly from Notre Dame and Duquesne ultra liberal centers.

Doubt it. They worship pro abortion 'MAN'. 54% is hardly an offshoot.
6,575 posted on 01/03/2011 4:34:12 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: Kolokotronis; metmom; count-your-change
The fullness of The Church is found in every single Roman Church diocese

This is a very important thing for our Protestant friends to grasp. The Church is a hierarchy of hierarchies, and each local Episcopacy models the Church Catholic. Further, each local parish models, with some necessary alterations, the Episcopacy, and each house forms the Church Domestic where the man of the house is also the priest of the house.

Each time the question is raised, "why wouldn't the Pope just order X", that is the answer. The bishops are sovereign princes of their dioceses. We are held together by faith kept in common, not by command and control structures.

St. Peter spoke of "living stones built up, a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices" for a reason.

6,576 posted on 01/03/2011 6:07:42 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: boatbums; OLD REGGIE; RnMomof7; metmom

The reference to specifically drinking is apparently due to the circumstance that Jesus asked for a physical drink. From that, a simile is made to the saving water of baptism. The fact remains that there is no instruction to the apostles to drink nor to give out a drink, but there is the instruction to give out Christ’s body and blood under the appearances of bread and wine, and to baptize. Baptism, like the Eucharist, gives everlasting life.


6,577 posted on 01/03/2011 6:12:32 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: metmom; boatbums; RnMomof7; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; caww
Is it drinking water that brings life or drinking blood? Perhaps some Catholic can enlighten us to this apparent contradiction of the very words of Jesus Himself?

Not drinking water but water baptism. Both sacraments, Baptism and the Eucharist, give everlasting life to these who validly partake of them. There is no contradiction as each means of salvation has its appointed place in the life of a Christian.

6,578 posted on 01/03/2011 6:16:18 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: presently no screen name
So they use manipulation to keep members?

May it's "strategy"? :)

54% is hardly an offshoot

Where do you find 54%?

6,579 posted on 01/03/2011 6:16:32 PM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: kosta50

sticky keyboard (too much coffee in it):

May = Maybe


6,580 posted on 01/03/2011 6:17:18 PM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: count-your-change; metmom; Kolokotronis
In Greece it is, it being the state church. Proselyting for any other religion can bring arrest and jail

Have you ever read the Greek constitution? I doubt it. Nothing in it establishes Eastern Orthodoxy as the "state" religion. Church and state are separate. It recognizes is as the prevalent religion (93% of the population).

The Greeks are among the most religious people in Europe. The number of people who believe in God is equal or higher than in the United States of America. Only Malta and Poland come close.

Compare that to, say, Germany, where 30% are declared atheists, and church attendance is a meagerly 5-6%.

Orthodoxy is deeply intertwined with Greek culture, so that much of folklore also has Orthodoxy in it. The two are inseparable, as Judaism is inseparable from Israel.

As to being arrested for proselytizing, that may very well be true. Protestant Christians have no business in Christian Greece. Your missionaries should go where Christ is unknown.

6,581 posted on 01/03/2011 6:32:05 PM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: daniel1212; count-your-change; Quix; caww
Annalex:If you don't believe the Church in her historical knowledge, why do you believe the Gospel?

daniel1212 : i have already answered it this vain argument, only to see it repeated

You will probably see it repeated many times even after I read and responded to what you wrote. Remember, I do not read ahead and respond when I get around to a particular post, usually about one week after it is posted, because there is one of me and many of you posting, and I don't skip serious posts. Why you will still see this argument repeated? Because your point, that you are at liberty accepting A but not B from the Church is, of course, valid, but I am not making that point at all.

It would indeed be wrong, -- completely un-Christian -- for me to thump the Catechism on the imaginary podium and shout, Obey the Living Magisterium! If I cite the Magisterium at all -- at times I do, typically, the Catechism, -- that is to explain what the Catholic Church really teaches. I do not expect anyone to obey the Church just because you have resolved to obey the Bible.

I do, however, have every right to point out how the Protestant doctrines stand in stark contrast to the Bible at least on the subject of Faith Alone and Bible Alone, and the rejection of the properly offered Sacraments of the Church. This is simply asking for consistency. If you did not profess obedience to the Bible I would not be making biblical points at all, just like I would not argue scripture with a Buddhist.

The hostile attitude to the historical wintess of the Church is of course not a logical contradiction to the belief in the same witness when it happens to be recorded in canonical scripture. It is simply something worth asking: what is it in the Scripture, beside the fact that the Church had canonized it, that makes it so distinct from things the Church also believed at the same time she canonized the scripture?

To your points.

1. Historical lineage does not make one an authentic Jew, spiritually speaking, as certain Jews presumed it did, (Mt. 3:9; Jn. 8:39,44; and their office required it), or a true Christian or church. Rather it is manifest Scriptural faith

True. Neither does historical lineage alone ensure validity of Apostolic succession. Both the Lutherans and the Anglicans lost it despite canonical provenance of their priests, due to the doctrinal errors of theirs.

unlike the church at Rome, the law was explicitly stated to have been committed to the Jews, (Rm. 3:2; 9:4) and yet they were manifestly not assuredly infallible in faith and morals

This goes to the disctintion between the non-salvific nature of the works of Jewish law, the part on which, hopefully we all agree, and the absolute nature of the teaching of Jesus Christ. The Jewish law was given to the Jews and not binding on the Gentiles; as the Church discovered, once a Jew becoems Christian the Law of Moses was no longer binding on him either. The Jewish lawmaking authority was temporal, the authority of the Church eternal (Mt 16:18-19). So no parallel can be drawn between the rule of the Rabbis and the Church.

3. Scripture being the supreme transcendent assuredly infallible objective authority [similar point is made in 4 and the same answer applies]

It is. The Magisterium that rules against the scripture, were it to ever happen, would not be guided by the Holy Ghost and will ispo facto cease to be the Magisterium of the Church.

5. The authenticity of Rome's AIM is based upon her own declaration that she is assuredly infallible

Yes. There are levels of speech uttered by the Magisterium, like there are levels of any speech. The Magisterium should be the judge of when the Magisterium intends to make an infallible statement and when it is ordinary teaching. This is just logical that the speaker is the judge of the intent of his speech.

6

This agins rests ont he idea that there is a direct analogy between the Jewish rabbinate and the Church. That premise is false.

the Divinely inspired writings were essentially progressively recognized as such due to their qualities and effects

Indeed, and that was the collective work of the Church.

7. ...immoral, impenitent Popes

we don't know about "impenitent", neither you or I were their confessors. St. Peter himself was not exactly infallible in his ordinary life. The issue is not that we had bad popes, -- we certainly did, -- but the teaching the Magisterium produced, perhaps, despite these very popes. Let us not forget that the infallible magisterial teaching is not a day-to-day governance of the Church. Bad popes generally left no lasting legacy.

6,582 posted on 01/03/2011 6:58:48 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: metmom; count-your-change; daniel1212; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; ...
The entirety of the OT was recognized as Scripture long before the RCC came along

But it was a decision of the Church (in part later neglected by Luther) to incorporate certain books into the Christian Bible. Further, the Church interpreted the Old Testament in the light of Christ. A Christian now reads the Old Testament with the eye of the Church, -- just talk to anyone Jewish and see how far you get agreeing on anything.

Claiming that the writers of Scripture were by default Catholics is only a tactic used to justify the Catholic church's power grab

That is not the claim though. Giordano Bruno was Catholic; Luther was Catholic for most of their lives. Just being a "default Catholic" does not guarantee anything. The Church as a whole -- not merely the four Evangelists and other authors, -- did the arduous work of selecting these particular writings from many other writings. It was done in council based on the criteria of canonicity established by the Church. Further, the teaching of the Church then and now is in complete harmony with the New Testament, whereas the teachings of every sect from the Arians to the Protestants contradicts the scripture in the major points of their doctrines. That is because the New Testament came from the bosom of the Church; it reflects her very essence.

6,583 posted on 01/03/2011 7:09:12 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: boatbums; kosta50; metmom; annalex; RnMomof7; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; ...
Jesus used many metaphors to express his teachings.

True, but that fact is no license to take anything Jesus said and because for some reason you don't like it say, "gotta be metaphor". The "drinking" part in John 4 is a take off from the fact that He was given water to drink; but the life giving water is of course Baptism because He did give us that, and life-giving it is. Gate and vine metaphors are self-evidently metaphors because they come in the course of the same passage. There is no commandment to drink water and there is no commandment to do anything about gates and vines. As to body and blood, the metaphorical interpretation flies int he face of the text itself, and indeed thare its a commandment to "do this" and a discourse that it is "food indeed".

No one says that all of the gospel is literal, but all of the gospel is inerrant as written. When a metaphore is offered, the inspired author made sure no sect in 16c could come alone and credibly pretend that they obey the scripture.

6,584 posted on 01/03/2011 7:53:13 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: OLD REGGIE; kosta50; metmom; Kolokotronis; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan
any "Catholic" Bible written since the Douay Rheims is the work of the Devil

Not "any", but the so called "dynamic" translations certainly are. Douay is word-for-word Vulgate and Vulgate is the result of Jerome's work before some codices went missing, and in the living environment of 4c Palestine. There are problems with that as well, but on balance, there is no better window to the Greek original in English today than Douay. unless you are prepared to struggle with Young's Literal, or, best of all, learn Greek.

That is if you want to do, in the spirit of Protestantism, all the work for yourself from scratch. If, on the other hand, you are willing to accept a historical authority, listen to the Catholic (and/or Orthodox) Church and you will know exactly not only what the scripture says but also what it means. Then the blandest, most cursory and aerodynamic stuff like NAB would still become useful, because you read it with the eye of the Church.

6,585 posted on 01/03/2011 8:02:39 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Kolokotronis; metmom; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww
I suspect this section 841 is going beyond that to place Mohammedanism in some special and elevated category

Yes, that is monotheism, and some vaguely Arian provenance.

6,586 posted on 01/03/2011 8:05:22 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Kolokotronis; metmom; MarkBsnr; stfassisi
Latin is no more a "foreign language" in a discussion of Christian theology and praxis than is Greek or Hebrew or Slavonic

True, but this is a venue that evangelizes as it debates. I think it is a good idea to offer translation at least when asked.

6,587 posted on 01/03/2011 8:08:56 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex; Kolokotronis; Religion Moderator

The translations are required by the RM and have been stated so several times, and just as often, ignored.


6,588 posted on 01/03/2011 8:15:35 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: editor-surveyor; RnMomof7; presently no screen name; metmom
Where do you gather salvation out of [the role of works in Romans 2:6-10]? Its just not there

Sure it is. Those "patient in good works" get "eternal life"; -- that's salvation. Those who "work evil" -- otherwise. Compare Matthew 25:31-46.

[cites Eph 2:8-10] we cannot do good works unless we are already saved.

It says "God hath before ordained that we should walk in [the good works]", so I don't think so. What kind of faith would that be, disobeying what God had "ordained" (it really says "prepared", by the way)?

6,589 posted on 01/03/2011 8:16:25 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: editor-surveyor
the catholic apostasy wasn’t invented until over two centuries after Luke died

Why is it them that today there is no sign of any "apostasy" in the Holy Catholic Church?

6,590 posted on 01/03/2011 8:17:59 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: kosta50; boatbums
I never asked for apology, and I told you so. To forgive is one thing; to forget is another. I am under no obligation to forget.

If you bring it up again, you haven't forgiven either.

6,591 posted on 01/03/2011 8:18:03 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Kolokotronis; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; ...
Photobucket


!!WELLLL!!
LA-T-DA!

EVIDENTLY


FOR SOME,
Snootiness
Is construed
to be equal to
righteousness!


I think God has a different perspective.

6,592 posted on 01/03/2011 8:24:20 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: editor-surveyor; boatbums; metmom; RnMomof7
any works that one does with the motivation of acheiving salvation are as filthy rags

"Filthy rags" is from a different context, but that is correct what you intend to say: good works are not done for any other reason than love of God and one's neighbor.

Only the works of one that is saved can be good

Based on what scripture?

one thing is wanting to thee: sell all whatever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me (Luke 18:22)

Observe: the young man was not saved, but that what he did is good. It just was not enough. The same episode promises salvation to anyone who "hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake". So these things are good even before the doers of these things are saved.

6,593 posted on 01/03/2011 8:26:26 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: metmom
Thanks for the defense but I really do not care to defend myself against anyone who calls me a liar. What amazes me the most is that some can say the most outlandish, silliest, ridiculous and goofiest things about a group they don't like and if someone from that group ever responds in even a slightly same way as them, they act like they have never been so insulted in their lives and how could you speak that way to them, yada, yada.

Like I said, it's juvenile and I'll ignore any further traps to draw me into what is always basically a spitting contest (or worse) with some people. No point to it.

6,594 posted on 01/03/2011 8:28:33 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: boatbums; caww
[quoting Romans 3:20-31]There is a Law of Works (which you seem to fancy), and there is a Law of Faith. We ARE saved by faith alone

The passage does nto describe the Law of Any Works; it only describes the Works of the Law. That is contrasted to faith, but that includes good works. This is why St,. Paul diod not say "justified by faith alone apart from any works" but rather "justified by faith apart from the works of the law", which is the Catholic teaching.

The idea that this passage gives credence to His Blood is present in the Eucharist is nowhere to be found here

"sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith". You do not recieve the Blood by faith, -- you don't believe it is blood.

6,595 posted on 01/03/2011 8:32:46 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: boatbums; metmom; RnMomof7
Annalex: John 3:16 simply says that you have to believe Christ in order to be saved by Christ. So you have, among other things, [to] do what He says and that includes the good works that He teaches

Boatbums: The point was that you claim "Protestants" must put their spin on verses of scripture, and I showed you that you do exactly that

Where did I spin John 3:16? You don't think you have to do what Jesus says?

6,596 posted on 01/03/2011 8:36:17 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: kosta50

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.


6,597 posted on 01/03/2011 8:37:44 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: annalex; editor-surveyor; metmom; RnMomof7
Observe: the young man was not saved, but that what he did is good. It just was not enough. The same episode promises salvation to anyone who "hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake". So these things are good even before the doers of these things are saved.

Yes, the young man was not saved, because he lacked faith in Jesus Christ as Savior. He thought he was perfect and could go to heaven because he was. When Jesus pointed out his weakness - his wealth - he showed him that his perceived perfection was never going to be enough. Note also that Jesus didn't say to him that if he gave everything to the poor and followed him, he would be saved, but that "his reward would be great in heaven". There is a difference. The base of our faith is that Jesus Christ is the one and only Savior and we should not allow anything in our lives - family, love, money, fame - to keep us from following him.

6,598 posted on 01/03/2011 8:38:59 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: metmom; boatbums; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; caww; count-your-change
The Law was put into effect to lead us to Christ by showing us that we could NOT meet the righteous requirements of God

So who are the sheep in Matthew 25:31-46? They seem to do what Matthew 5-7 teaches and end up saved.

Also, you are telling us that Jesus said the Sermon on the Mount in order to tease us, like a cruel person would urge a lame to run Marathon. Is there any indication in the text of the Sermon itself that it is given as an example of the impossible?

once someone sinned one time, it wouldn’t matter if they were perfect for the entire rest of their lives. It’s too late

True. This is why Christ also gave the Church the "ministry of reconciliation" (2 Corinthians 5:18, cf. John 20:22-23)

[quotes Gal 2 and 3]

I explained it to you many times. The Church agrees with St. Paul that works of the law do not save anyone.

6,599 posted on 01/03/2011 8:45:33 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: count-your-change
Christ heavenly offering obtained “eternal redemption” and did not need to be repeated or performed on earth

The Holy Eucharist is not a repetition or performance of anything.

It is usually a good idea to know a thing or two about the subject upon which you wish to opine.

6,600 posted on 01/03/2011 8:47:51 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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