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In Christ Alone (Happy reformation day)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExnTlIM5QgE ^ | Getty, Julian Keith; Townend, Stuart Richard;

Posted on 10/31/2010 11:59:22 AM PDT by RnMomof7

In Christ Alone lyrics

Songwriters: Getty, Julian Keith; Townend, Stuart Richard;

In Christ alone my hope is found He is my light, my strength, my song This Cornerstone, this solid ground Firm through the fiercest drought and storm

What heights of love, what depths of peace When fears are stilled, when strivings cease My Comforter, my All in All Here in the love of Christ I stand

In Christ alone, who took on flesh Fullness of God in helpless Babe This gift of love and righteousness Scorned by the ones He came to save

?Til on that cross as Jesus died The wrath of God was satisfied For every sin on Him was laid Here in the death of Christ I live, I live

There in the ground His body lay Light of the world by darkness slain Then bursting forth in glorious Day Up from the grave He rose again

And as He stands in victory Sin?s curse has lost its grip on me For I am His and He is mine Bought with the precious blood of Christ


TOPICS: Prayer; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: reformation; savedbygrace
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To: Quix

Don’t pick at the cut hand. Let the cut begin to heal shut, get some air to it as soon as you can, keep bandage clean and loose. - I know how men are about picking at cuts and all. Let the scab stay on long enough to do its job. Scabs are God’s bandages.


6,851 posted on 01/07/2011 1:32:35 PM PST by Twinkie (Awake and strengthen that which remains . . . . . . . . Revelation 3)
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To: metmom
No. Because the sin nature comes through the Father and since Jesus father was God, He had no sin nature.

That's why it was not necessary for Mary to be sinless.

Oh, funny! Women don't transfer the "sin nature" to their children? What a JOKE! Mary didn't, because she was preserved from all stain of sin by Christ, her Son, Who was also her Savior. No other woman bore Christ, no other woman was so blessed by God. Every other woman transfers her own "sin nature" to her children, as does every man to his children.

6,852 posted on 01/07/2011 1:35:25 PM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: Twinkie

INDEED.

And a needful exhortation w me.

I do OK until the bandages come off. Probably need to leave at least tape on, even then . . . for the scabs to do their work.

THX THX.


6,853 posted on 01/07/2011 2:28:24 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Judith Anne; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; ...
Oh, funny! Women don't transfer the "sin nature" to their children?

Nope.

What a JOKE!

It's in the Bible. Read it yourself some time. You might actually learn something.

Mary didn't, because she was preserved from all stain of sin by Christ, her Son, Who was also her Savior.

But God couldn't have preserved Christ from the stain of sin from HIS mother just like you guys claim that Mary was preserved from the stain of sin from HER mother? Why would God not be capable of that? Why would Christ be more easily contaminated with sin than Mary? Isn't He as good as her?

If God could keep Mary sin free being born of a sinful mother, He could have kept Jesus sin free being born of a sinful mother.

Or are you implying that Mary is capable of something Jesus isn't? Jesus is more susceptible to the stain of sin than Mary was? If God could do it for Mary with her mother, He could have done it for Jesus with His mother. Mary didn't need to be sin free to bear a sin free child any more than Mary's mother needed to be sin free to bear Mary (allegedly) sin free.

The *logic* falls apart. If God could do it for Mary, He could do the exact same thing for Jesus. Mary did not need to be sin free.

Every other woman transfers her own "sin nature" to her children, as does every man to his children.

That is totally unscriptural and hence, not true.

Romans 5:12-21 12Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

15But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

18Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. 20Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The sin nature comes from the man, not the woman. Eve was deceived. Adam sinned deliberately.

The reason Jesus could be born sin free is because the sin nature comes through the man, not the woman. God was Jesus' father. No sin nature.

6,854 posted on 01/07/2011 2:49:19 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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Comment #6,855 Removed by Moderator

To: metmom; judithann
she was preserved from all stain of sin by Christ, her Son, Who was also her Savior

Judith's statement makes absolutely so sense...if Mary was sinless, (which she herself admits she wasn't), then she'd have no need of a Savior. Only sinners need a savior.

6,856 posted on 01/07/2011 3:01:22 PM PST by caww
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To: metmom

That is so twisted.

Where did you get your sin nature? Your father? Your mother never sinned? You never sinned and passed that on to your children? What kind of fairy tale do you live in?

ALL have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God. WOMEN AND MEN. Mary was the only one preserved from sin, that was to bear Christ. Christ was her Savior, as He is the Savior of all mankind, WOMEN AND MEN.

God could certainly have done anything. He is capable of whatever He wishes. I am not implying that Mary is capable of anything on her own. I did not say she was capable of anything on her own. By the power and will of God, Mary was saved from all stain of original sin; Christ was her Savior, as He is the Savior of all the world. If If If means nothing.

You make it sound like women have no sin nature; that would mean we don’t need a Savior. You may be perfect, I am not, and I need Christ Jesus, my Lord and Savior, Risen Son of Almighty God, as much as any human on this planet.


6,857 posted on 01/07/2011 3:02:17 PM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: caww

Is the misspelled Judith name also JA’s?


6,858 posted on 01/07/2011 3:03:56 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix

No, it’s another poster.


6,859 posted on 01/07/2011 3:09:30 PM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: Quix

‘e’.


6,860 posted on 01/07/2011 3:09:49 PM PST by caww
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To: Judith Anne

I think you’re misunderstanding the angels announcement to Mary at Luke 1:35. Mary was to be “overshadowed” by God’s power. There is no hint in Scripture of Mary being sinless or a reason for her to be so.
The child born was holy and called God’s Son because of that overshadowing or power of God’s Spirit.

Mary as a descendant of the sinner Adam grew old and died as had all other descendants of Adam.


6,861 posted on 01/07/2011 3:55:07 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Judith Anne
You make it sound like women have no sin nature

My wife comes close!!!! I think that only a heavenly angel could put up with the likes of me. :)

But your point on Mary is well spoken. How could the God-man Jesus be conceived in and held in the tabernacle of her womb if it were not pure and she without sin? Can the Almighty exist as a developing fetus, with umbilical cord exchanging blood and nutrients, inside a sinful mother? Wouldn't the very physical interchange of fluids and other materials between Jesus and Mary ensure that she was pure? Could she even exist in such physical contact with God if she were not pure? After all, nobody can enter the Kingdom of Heaven with the least trace of impurity. Wouldn't the same be for Mary?

6,862 posted on 01/07/2011 3:58:46 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: MarkBsnr

Our dear husbands want us on a pedestal, but we know that we stand in need of Christ’s salvation as much as any man. Goodness will not get us to heaven, only Christ Jesus. No woman can be good enough to save herself, even Mary. Christ was her Savior, and her God, and preserved her from all stain of sin, she acknowledged that.


6,863 posted on 01/07/2011 4:07:39 PM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: count-your-change; metmom
"Humans inherit from their maternal parent too but as the angel said, Holy Spirit was going to operate in a very special way, it would overshadow her, so that the child born by God’s power, God’s Son, would be holy, without sin, without that sinful inclination.

Thus Mary needed no cleansing from sin and no such cleansing or immaculateness is ever attributed to her in Scripture.

As Paul said, ‘death spread to all men (humans)’ Mary grew old and died as a descendant of Adam."

Excellent, cyc, absolutely excellent!!! And thus the Holy and God bearing Fathers of the 4th Ecumenical Council declared:

"THEREFORE, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the Godbearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us."

6,864 posted on 01/07/2011 4:22:05 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: annalex

I meant to ping you to #6864


6,865 posted on 01/07/2011 4:23:20 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: Kolokotronis

If there’s some connection between what I wrote and your reply I must have missed it but “Excellent, cyc, absolutely excellent!!!” is something I shall treasure forever, FOR EVER and EVER, I shall!!


6,866 posted on 01/07/2011 4:35:12 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change
"If there’s some connection between what I wrote and your reply I must have missed it"

You'll get there...!

"“Excellent, cyc, absolutely excellent!!!” is something I shall treasure forever, FOR EVER and EVER, I shall!!"

I honestly meant it, cyc.

6,867 posted on 01/07/2011 4:38:40 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: Kolokotronis

And I was having a bit of a go at you with that. My sarcasms may bite but they are all gums.

O.K., K., why excellent? I’LL play straight man.


6,868 posted on 01/07/2011 4:54:27 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change
"O.K., K., why excellent? I’LL play straight man."

Because what you wrote was distinctly Eastern Christian Patristic, and not at all Western Christian, theology.

6,869 posted on 01/07/2011 5:02:43 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: Judith Anne

Real men find real women and love them completely and put them on a pedestal.

But your point is taken; all human beings without God are lost.


6,870 posted on 01/07/2011 5:09:43 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Kolokotronis
Because what you wrote was distinctly Eastern Christian Patristic, and not at all Western Christian, theology.

Well, more distinctly Eastern Patristic, anyway...

6,871 posted on 01/07/2011 5:32:01 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: metmom; Judith Anne; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; Quix; ...
The sin nature comes from the man, not the woman. Eve was deceived. Adam sinned deliberately.

The reason Jesus could be born sin free is because the sin nature comes through the man, not the woman. God was Jesus' father. No sin nature.

Amen. Great post all around.

This is basic Christianity 101 and I'm embarrassed to say I didn't really learn it until a few years ago right here on the FR RF. Probably from one of the saints pinged above.

But don't worry, Judith. Now that you know the sin nature is passed through the father, you won't have to mistakenly tell us that our sin nature comes through the mother.

And God willing, this fact will help RCs further to understand why it was not necessary (as Rome insists) that Mary be sinless in order to give birth to a blameless, sinless Christ. God was His Father, and thus no sin nature was imparted.

So Adam and his male progeny get most of the blame in messing things up in Eden. As women, we can play dumb and hum along -- "I didn't know you was a snake when I took you in."

6,872 posted on 01/07/2011 5:39:11 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose))
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To: caww

She was forgiven from sin she didn’t commit and was kept from sinning before she committed the sin.

You know, kind of like that movie that was out a couple years ago where they could tell if someone was going to break the law and they’d jail him before he could commit the crime to keep him from committing it.


6,873 posted on 01/07/2011 5:53:08 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

LOL

I wonder . . . how many men become snakes because their woman makes them crawl so much?


6,874 posted on 01/07/2011 5:54:11 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Judith Anne; Dr. Eckleburg; Quix

“ALL have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God. WOMEN AND MEN.”

...you have it! You finally get it!!! Including Mary!

“Mary was the only one preserved from sin, that was to bear Christ.”

...drat. You lost it.

It’s amazing to see the contradiction so plainly stated by you and yet... it is believed by you. I don’t get it.

If Mary was sinless, she needed no savior. Yet, she offered sacrifices for her sins... she called Jesus her savior... Someone who is sinless need do neither thing.

“Mary was saved from all stain of original sin;”

I’m sure you wouldn’t mind sourcing that to scripture...??

Hoss


6,875 posted on 01/07/2011 5:54:34 PM PST by HossB86
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Judith Anne
This is basic Christianity 101 and I'm embarrassed to say I didn't really learn it until a few years ago right here on the FR RF. Probably from one of the saints pinged above.

Let me guess: you base it exclusively on Romans 5:12. And nowhere else. Let us see what it actually says:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

Basic Christianity 101? Let me remind you that Jewishness is matrilinear. Sin nature passed through the father? There is no evidence that it is exclusive. Is there anything that you guys get right about Christianity?

6,876 posted on 01/07/2011 6:02:24 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Judith Anne

Stop building strawmen to knock down.

Focus here.

I never said that all people don’t have a sin nature and that all people don’t sin, with the exception of Jesus. The Bible says that ALL have sinned, which, BTW includes Mary otherwise Scripture is wrong.

But SCRIPTURE clearly says that the sin nature comes through the man. That’s why Jesus was sinless, because His father was not human with a sin nature, but God without one.

Since you obviously don’t accept the Scriptural reason why Jesus was without sin, what is YOUR reason that HE was without sin.

What Scripture can you use to demonstrate that the sin nature comes through the mother and not the father as you claim?


6,877 posted on 01/07/2011 6:03:46 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom; Dr. Eckleburg; Judith Anne; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; ...
The sin nature comes from the man, not the woman. Eve was deceived. Adam sinned deliberately.

Absolutely correct. You get the golden star today. Paul not only says this once but twice in scripture. Yet I don't know HOW many preachers and commentaries state that Adam and Eve sinned as if their sins were equal. They both sinned but sin came into the world through man-not woman.

But the question the Catholics never seem to have an answer for is that if God was able to keep Mary from sinning, why doesn't He just keep every one of us from sinning? If God wants everyone saved, then why doesn't He simply will everyone not to sin like the Catholics states that He did with Mary?

The obvious answer is that not everyone is meant to be saved. That's just the way it is.

BTW-I like Dr. E toe tapper. :O)

6,878 posted on 01/07/2011 6:06:30 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: HossB86
No Scripture, of course.

It's just

MORE

UNBiblical
Fabled Farcical Fallacious Fanatical Far-out Fatuous Faulty Fairyland Faked Fantasies
from the
Vatican Alice In Wonderland School of Theology And Reality Mangling!

They never seem to tire spinning them and foisting them on the sheeple.

6,879 posted on 01/07/2011 6:06:38 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: HossB86
If Mary was sinless, she needed no savior. Yet, she offered sacrifices for her sins... she called Jesus her savior... Someone who is sinless need do neither thing.

We are saved by Christ Jesus after we are born into sin; Mary was preserved from that by Christ Jesus, her Savior, before she was born. She still needed her Savior, Christ was her Savior as He is ours.

This discussion is fruitless. It makes no difference if I explain my beliefs, you (plural) give no evidence that you (plural) care what they are. It appears that you (plural) are simply playing gotcha, forgetting that we Catholics are not limited as you are to Holy Scripture, but also have Holy Tradition to guide us.

6,880 posted on 01/07/2011 6:16:52 PM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: metmom
What Scripture can you use to demonstrate that the sin nature comes through the mother and not the father as you claim?

What part of "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" do you have a problem with? All means all. All men and all women. Are you playing a game? All. We get our sin nature through both our parents. Christ preserved Mary from sin, He saved her before she was born, thus she was fully human, without stain of sin; so He could be born Son of God, fully human and fully God. Why is that so hard to understand?

6,881 posted on 01/07/2011 6:23:00 PM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: MarkBsnr; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; count-your-change; ..
How could the God-man Jesus Mary be conceived in and held in the tabernacle of her her mother's womb if it were not pure and she without sin? Can the Almighty Mary exist as a developing fetus, with umbilical cord exchanging blood and nutrients, inside a sinful mother? Wouldn't the very physical interchange of fluids and other materials between Jesus and Mary Mary and her mother ensure that she was pure? Could she even exist in such physical contact with God sinless Mary if she were not pure? After all, nobody can enter the Kingdom of Heaven with the least trace of impurity. Wouldn't the same be for Mary's mother?

If it were not possible for Jesus to be carried inside a sinful human because of contamination of sin when He Himself was God Himself, then how could a human such as Mary be carried in her sinful mother's womb without contamination of sin from HER mother?

Mary didn't need to be sinless to carry Jesus any more than Mary's mother had to be sinless to carry Mary, if Mary were to be born without sin as the Catholics say.

If Mary's sinful mother could carry Mary without contaminating her,a mere human, with sin, then a sinful Mary could carry God Incarnate without contaminating HIM with sin.

OK, back to this question....Can the Almighty exist as a developing fetus, with umbilical cord exchanging blood and nutrients, inside a sinful mother?

How almighty is a god who can be contaminated by contact with a sinful person?

I'm sorry your God is so weak that He can't handle that.

Sin is not transferred by contact with sinful people. If that were the case, Mary herself could not have been born sinless. Even if she had been and Jesus had been born sinless for that reason, and physical contact with sin is what transferred sin, then when He started His ministry and touched sinful people to heal them, He ought to have contracted sin through that physical contact.

Sin cannot contaminate Jesus or He would not have remained pure when He bore the sins of the world and took the penalty for them. But Jesus' teaching is that it is not what is outside a man which defiles him. It's what comes from the heart.

Matthew 15:10-20 10And he called the people to him and said to them, "Hear and understand: 11 it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person." 12Then the disciples came and said to him, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?" 13He answered, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up. 14Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit." 15But Peter said to him, "Explain the parable to us." 16And he said, "Are you also still without understanding? 17Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach and is expelled? 18But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. 20 These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone."

6,882 posted on 01/07/2011 6:30:17 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom

How do you reconcile this:

“But SCRIPTURE clearly says that the sin nature comes through the man.” Your post 6877

with this:

“Sin is not transferred by contact with sinful people.” Your post 6882.

You contradict yourself.


6,883 posted on 01/07/2011 6:37:24 PM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: MarkBsnr; Dr. Eckleburg; Judith Anne; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; ...
Let me guess: you base it exclusively on Romans 5:12. And nowhere else. Let us see what it actually says:
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

Well, at least she's got SOME Scripture to support her position, which is far better than the none that the Catholics have to support the sinlessness of Mary.

Basic Christianity 101? Let me remind you that Jewishness is matrilinear. Sin nature passed through the father? There is no evidence that it is exclusive. Is there anything that you guys get right about Christianity?

Genesis 22:17-18 17I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies, 18and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice."

Genesis 26:3-5 3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with you and will bless you, for to you and to your offspring I will give all these lands, and I will establish the oath that I swore to Abraham your father. 4 I will multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and will give to your offspring all these lands. And in your offspring all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, 5because Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

Galatians 3:7-9 7Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you shall all the nations be blessed." 9So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

Just where do you get that Jewishness is matrilineal? Which genealogies in the Bible support that?

6,884 posted on 01/07/2011 6:58:53 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Judith Anne; HossB86
.....Mary was preserved from that by Christ Jesus, her Savior, before she was born.

Scripture reference please.She still needed her Savior, Christ was her Savior as He is ours.

If she never sinned, she didn't need a savior.

6,885 posted on 01/07/2011 7:03:11 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: OLD REGGIE; Kolokotronis; metmom; count-your-change; kosta50; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; ...
Pope "owns" the Bishops in that he has sole authority to hire and fire them

Eh, no. A bishop is a bishop and remains a bishop till he dies, not unlike any royalty. Appointment and removal of bishops to dioceses is a complex and collegial process, which is not to the sole discretion of the Pope. He certainly cannot remove a bishop at will -- I wish he removed quite a few, in this country, by the way.

Bishop is not a job, -- bishops do not get hired or fired.

Appointment of Catholic bishops

Moving on to the rest of your adjacent post(s)

When did the Greek Church, if they have done so yet, adopt an English language Bible?

Why would a Greek Church need any English Bible? In case you misspoke, the official translation of the Latin Catholic Churches everywhere is St. Jerome's Latin. Douay happens to be a word-for-word that. For the use of the Bible in the Holy Liturgy there is a committee in each language group deciding on that. In English, at least, in the US, the translation is, most unfortunately, NAB Catholic edition. But that does not make it "official". Every one is free to use whichever translation suits him best. NAB has one advantage, it is easy to understand by ear, and that is the compelling reason it was chosen for Bible readings from the Ambo.

6,886 posted on 01/07/2011 7:05:35 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Judith Anne

I don’t contradict myself at all.

Sin comes from within, from the heart as Jesus taught.

It is not transmitted like a disease. It’s inherent in us as humans with a human sinful father.


6,887 posted on 01/07/2011 7:07:00 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Judith Anne; Dr. Eckleburg; Quix

“Mary was preserved from that by Christ Jesus, her Savior, before she was born.”

Again, all I ask for is a Scriptural citation, not a repetition of a claim. If it’s true, show me in Scripture; I might be more convinced.

“It appears that you (plural) are simply playing gotcha, forgetting that we Catholics are not limited as you are to Holy Scripture, but also have Holy Tradition to guide us.”

If the “gotcha” refers to the inability to provide actual, inspired, scriptural support, then, well —

GOTCHA!!!

And it shows. As for “Holy Tradition” — nothing “holy” about it. So, if that is considered a limitation, praise God Almighty for that limitation; I thank Him that I am limited to Him and Him alone for my salvation, my existence, and my future! I thank Him that He is all I need.

And THAT is in Scripture.

Sadly, it does seem to be a fruitless discussion; but we persist hoping that The Lord will open the eyes blinded by “Holy Tradition” and awaken hearts and minds to Him and Him alone.

Hoss


6,888 posted on 01/07/2011 7:07:24 PM PST by HossB86
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To: count-your-change
Mary living with John and her reply to Elizabeth are found in Luke and are available to all. It is not special to the Catholic Church

You realize that before the Magnificat prayer got into St. Luke's gospel, St. Luke had to find out from somebody what did the prayer say?

Further, that the Magnificat and the fact that Mary adopted John, and a few others, are in the scripture does not mean that the only thing Sts Luke and John knew about her is wholly contained in the scriptures that they wrote. St. John, in fact, writes that he did not write down everything Chirst did -- what makes you think in the case of Mary all he knew were the Wedding at Cana?

6,889 posted on 01/07/2011 7:11:51 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: count-your-change; boatbums
So the sacrifice of the Eucharist came first? It “made present” Christ’s sacrifice before it happened. Really, annalex, really?

Yes, that is true. At the Last Supper Jesus celebrated a Mass in reverse: rather than bringing His sacrifice to us across time AFTER it occurred, as He does at each contemporary Mass, He brought His sacrifice across time to the Apostles BEFORE it occurred.

6,890 posted on 01/07/2011 7:15:00 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: metmom

“Just where do you get that Jewishness is matrilineal? Which genealogies in the Bible support that?”

There are no genealogies in support of the idea. It comes from the interpretations of Deut. 7:1-5 made by Orthodox Jews.

But those verses are God’s command to remove certain peoples from the Promised Land and form no marriages with them. It says NOTHING about inheriting anything from anyone.
In short, “ Let me remind you that Jewishness is matrilinear.”, is a Talmudic invention.


6,891 posted on 01/07/2011 7:21:00 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: MarkBsnr
As written by whom?

The Holy Scripture is inerrant as written by the original authors at the time they wrote them with the intention they wrote them, for the audience they intended. This does not mean our understanding of the scripture today is inerrant, but we have tools to approximate it by referring to the interpretation we can glean from the Fathers of the Church.

Reading the scripture according to the Protestant charlatan-a-day is virtually guaranteed to be false since they assume their own interpretative authority in the light of, at the oldest, traditions of 15c, which is after any cultural continuity with the Apostolic times was long lost.

6,892 posted on 01/07/2011 7:23:46 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: caww
Thank God it came to me.

"And we have seen

and do testify

that the Father

sent the Son

to be the Saviour

of the world. " (1 John 4:14)

You might be edified by the Creation to Consummation poem also. To God be the glory. Amen

6,893 posted on 01/07/2011 7:26:53 PM PST by daniel1212 ( "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out," Acts 3:19)
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To: metmom
It is not transmitted like a disease. It’s inherent in us as humans with a human sinful father.

That is such a strange belief. Sin doesn't come from both parents, but ONLY the father? Makes no sense, since both are equally sinners. However, it seems like a convenient belief for a cult that insists that Mary didn't need to be preserved from all stain of sin to be the Mother of God. No wonder.

6,894 posted on 01/07/2011 7:32:20 PM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: annalex

The further away from the Scriptures your speculations drift, the more fantastical they become. And I might add, the more amusing.

“He brought His sacrifice across time to the Apostles BEFORE it occurred.”


6,895 posted on 01/07/2011 7:36:05 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change

Jewishness has been matrilinear for millennnia; the exact origins of that are unclear, and have several biblical references. A discussion of this can be found at:

http://www.jewishfamilyservice.net/jewish-identity/why-does-jewish-identity-pass-through-the-mother-matrilineal-descent-if-the-tanakh-traces-descent-by-fathers


6,896 posted on 01/07/2011 7:42:43 PM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: HossB86

INDEED


6,897 posted on 01/07/2011 7:49:20 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Judith Anne

That site refers to the same verses in Deut. that I did and in addition to the incident in Ezra when the Israelites sent the foreign wives and their children away.

NOTHING in either place speaks to Jewishness being matrilinear. In fact the history of the nation is just the opposite per Moses taking a wife from Midian and all of his descendants are counted as part of the nation.

Again it is an invention of Talmudic interpretation.


6,898 posted on 01/07/2011 8:00:20 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: D-fendr
Yes, you’ve nailed it. Our definitions of Church are very different.

The primary diference in this context is the Church is given authority by Christ.

Not the individual member, but the Apostolic Church. We see this in Acts in the first council and following councils and continuously throughout the history of the Church.

A question and illustrative example, when an Calvinist and a non-Calvinist disagree, how do they “take it to the church”?

When you and I disagree about the meaning of scripture, which of our views is “the Christian view”?

And, finally, do you say, credo: in One Holy and Apostolic Church?

If so, what does it mean to you? What did it mean when it was decided in Council?

Yes, I believe the "church" was given authority by Jesus, but the question should be to whom was meant by the church and how long was this authority to remain with them?

In the first century, there were apostles who along with designated disciples started local churches. They ensured that there were leaders who were grounded in the faith. We see that even from the first, there were challenges to the orthodox faith. I believe the Holy Scriptures - the Bible - was given as the authority and from when it was first being written, it gradually substituted for the apostolic authority once the individual apostles died. Their founded churches then proceeded to send out evangelists who, in turn led people to Christ, trained their leaders and established new local churches. So, no, I do not believe as you say that there was this ONE, TRUE, ONLY Church (singular). Rather there were many across the continent, all being established and peopled by genuine, born-again believers in Christ and the Bible became their "rule of the faith". Certainly the early councils had a place while the Scriptures were being written and circulated and their proclamations were circulated throughout the regions as well.

There have been and will continue to be disagreement with certain stances on doctrine, but we have the Bible as our guide and authority on matters critical to the faith. A Calvinist has come to certain conclusions about some things that I differ with, but not all Calvinists believe all the teachings of Calvin on all things and some even go way past what Calvin even dreamed of in some areas (hyper-Calvinism). Regardless, we still agree on the major tenets of the Christian faith and that is what really matters. Certainly you can concede that not everything a Christian can think or believe in the minor areas is in black and white in Scripture and I think as long as we "get" the important stuff right, we will be able to get along just fine. There should be liberty on the nonessential.

Finally, when I have said the Apostles' Creed, I understand that "One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" means the universal body of believers in Christ that ARE one in him and the teachings of the Apostles are still being taught and believed - the Bible is the way we know that.

6,899 posted on 01/07/2011 8:04:29 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: annalex
Please explain yourself.

Actually, I'm done trying to explain this. That you cannot see my point about "spin" after numerous attempts to explain only proves that maybe you can't or won't see it, I don't know, only you can answer it. But I'm done wasting both our time on it. Thanks for the sparring.

6,900 posted on 01/07/2011 8:10:43 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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