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In Christ Alone (Happy reformation day)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExnTlIM5QgE ^ | Getty, Julian Keith; Townend, Stuart Richard;

Posted on 10/31/2010 11:59:22 AM PDT by RnMomof7

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To: bkaycee; metmom
Odd, that He would leave us with such a wrong impression

If you read the scripture according to waht the Protestat charlatans teach about it, you can end up with all kinds of impressions and God is not going to help you. "Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest?".

6,101 posted on 12/28/2010 6:44:42 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: metmom

Last Supper, First Sacrifice.


6,102 posted on 12/28/2010 6:48:20 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: OLD REGGIE; boatbums; metmom
Did Paul exclude Mary! [in Romans 3:23]

Yes he did. In the same passage, even though you did not cite that part, he says "there is none that seeketh after God" and "The venom of asps is under their lips" and "Their feet swift to shed blood". I don't think that applies to a lot of people, not just Mary.

6,103 posted on 12/28/2010 6:48:34 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: boatbums; OLD REGGIE; presently no screen name; bkaycee; metmom; RnMomof7
if Mary was indeed a life-long dedicated virgin, etc., then why does the Bible not say that?

It does say that. "I know not man".

why is there a need to invent an entirely new narrative to jive with the idea of Mary's perpetual virginity?

No one invented anything. The Church always taught that Mary was virgin all her life.

6,104 posted on 12/28/2010 6:52:21 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: boatbums; RnMomof7; editor-surveyor; presently no screen name; metmom
You seem to be going on an assumption that I am the kind of person who thinks works have NO place in my faith. I get the impression that you, along with many other Roman Catholics - based on repetitive comments - that sola fide means we have a license to live in sin with no need for a changed life for the better

No, I do not think that. I know that Protestants in actuality live out their faith in good works much like any other Christians. I understand that to a believer good works come naturally. What I do say is that the doctrine of "faith alone" is false and harmful and it does not advance the salvation of anyone. It was really invented by Luther to avoid sacramental life of the Church, not to give people license to sin. Your natural faith is often good; the acquired reflexes of "faith alone" damage your natural faith. Some survive that; others lose their faith altogether.

Go back to worrying every moment that you may not make it

Why should I worry? I am secure in the lap of the Church as any man can be.

6,105 posted on 12/28/2010 7:03:52 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: D-fendr

When He ate that what Catholics call a sacrament that He instituted at the Last Supper (the first communion), did it at that time turn into the literal body and blood of Christ?


6,106 posted on 12/28/2010 7:16:51 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: annalex
They are alive.

Lost argument Annalex....the Apostles and Peter are not here on earth...they died a physical death and are home with the Lord.

One can "believe" the departed are accessible to us...and the enemy of men's souls delights to assist in that masquerade as it keeps Christ off His rightful throne as the only mediator between God and man. But "believing' does not mean it's reality.

There are many false assumptions made today on mans ability to speak or be enticed into the spiritual realm. But know this..whosoever attempts so is on a slippery slope that leads away from Christ...just a matter of time.

6,107 posted on 12/28/2010 7:21:03 PM PST by caww
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To: metmom

In terms of the Holy Eucharist, the bread and wine became the consecrated host.

I’m going to assume you were taught what this means when you were catechized.


6,108 posted on 12/28/2010 7:24:35 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: annalex; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; count-your-change; ...

No. Dying here on earth.

Or are you going to apply the usual hypocritical Catholic double standard of interpreting one phrase in a passage of Scripture as literal, the next phrase as figurative, the next phrase as metaphorical, the next phrase literal again, etc.?

If Catholics are going to insist on the literal meaning of the body and blood statements, then in the spirit of honest interpretation done with integrity and consistency, then ALL of the passage must be interpreted in the same sense.

This business the Catholic church does of interpreting one section one way and another one a different way all in the name of supporting Catholic doctrine is inherently dishonest to the core.

If Catholicism is going to demand a literal word for word interpretation of the body and blood statements, that they in actuality become the literal physical flesh and blood of Christ and that people have to actually, literally eat the actual literal flesh and blood of Jesus, in the interest of honesty and integrity, the sections that say that he who eats will never die, MUST mean that physical death does not occur.

It is the height of intellectual dishonesty to insist that it refers only to spiritual death when the demand is made for the rest of the passage to be taken literally and physically, and not spiritually.


6,109 posted on 12/28/2010 7:29:27 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: annalex; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; count-your-change; ...

Everyone who has died a physical death is alive somewhere.

Even those who never ate communion as you say must be done.

Try again.


6,110 posted on 12/28/2010 7:31:43 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom

ABSOLUTELY INDEED:


No. Dying here on earth.

Or are you going to apply the usual hypocritical Catholic double standard of interpreting one phrase in a passage of Scripture as literal, the next phrase as figurative, the next phrase as metaphorical, the next phrase literal again, etc.?

If Catholics are going to insist on the literal meaning of the body and blood statements, then in the spirit of honest interpretation done with integrity and consistency, then ALL of the passage must be interpreted in the same sense.

This business the Catholic church does of interpreting one section one way and another one a different way all in the name of supporting Catholic doctrine is inherently dishonest to the core.

If Catholicism is going to demand a literal word for word interpretation of the body and blood statements, that they in actuality become the literal physical flesh and blood of Christ and that people have to actually, literally eat the actual literal flesh and blood of Jesus, in the interest of honesty and integrity, the sections that say that he who eats will never die, MUST mean that physical death does not occur.

It is the height of intellectual dishonesty to insist that it refers only to spiritual death when the demand is made for the rest of the passage to be taken literally and physically, and not spiritually.


6,111 posted on 12/28/2010 7:37:24 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: metmom

Exactly Metmom...but catholics continue to use the “but they are alive” approach to justify what they so desperately want to hold onto. It’s like getting a kid to unlock his fist from the candy in his hand....and come to dinner where the food is nourishing to his body.


6,112 posted on 12/28/2010 7:38:05 PM PST by caww
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To: annalex; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; count-your-change; ...
Sure I can, because it is a knowledge possessed by the Church, which is not expressed in the scripture.

Then it's meaningless.

If it's not in Scripture, it's not infallible. It's merely the opinion of men.

I really don't care much what a bunch of corrupt, immoral, charlatans who claimed some sort of special spiritual insight due to the positions they awarded themselves thought.

The actions and behavior of the Catholic church for the majority of its history shows a dearth of spiritual insight and leading.

They ought to just hang a sign above the door of the Vatican that says *Ichabod*. There is no godliness there.

When they can get their act together and start acting like the Christ they claim to represent, then they'll gain some credibility and might have something worth saying and listening to.

But until they clean house and do it publicly and decisively, they have nothing to say.

6,113 posted on 12/28/2010 7:40:29 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: annalex
Same as before, Matthew 1:18, 25 MAY be interpreted your way but just as easily they simply mean what they say, that Mary was pregnant before she got married and not by Joseph.

I never said it didn't say that.

It does say, however, that after she gave birth, she and Joseph had sex.

Why do you keep *answering* comments people never made?

6,114 posted on 12/28/2010 7:43:07 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom

I should also correct the formulation of your question by referring to the words of institution. IIt was words of the Savior by which He instituted the Sacrament.


6,115 posted on 12/28/2010 7:46:43 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr

Did the bread and wine become the literal flesh and blood of Jesus at the Last Supper when Christ instituted it with His disciples and did they eat it as the actual literal flesh and blood as the Catholic church teaches?

Did Christ eat and drink His own body and blood in violation of the OT Law that forbade it?


6,116 posted on 12/28/2010 7:47:05 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: D-fendr

Did the bread and wine become the literal flesh and blood of Jesus at the Last Supper when Christ instituted it with His disciples and did they eat it as the actual literal flesh and blood as the Catholic church teaches?

Did Christ eat and drink His own body and blood in violation of the OT Law that forbade it?


6,117 posted on 12/28/2010 7:48:54 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: annalex

Even though some still say the creeds, for many outside the Church, the meaning of Communion of Saints has been lost.


6,118 posted on 12/28/2010 7:49:52 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: metmom; annalex

“Sure I can, because it is a knowledge possessed by the Church, which is not expressed in the scripture.”

Where did this “knowledge” come from? I ask. And When?


6,119 posted on 12/28/2010 7:49:58 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: D-fendr
Leviticus 3:17 It shall be a statute forever throughout your generations, in all your dwelling places, that you eat neither fat nor blood."

Leviticus 7:26 & 27 Moreover, you shall eat no blood whatever, whether of fowl or of animal, in any of your dwelling places. Whoever eats any blood, that person shall be cut off from his people."

Leviticus 17:10-16 10"If any one of the house of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn among them eats any blood, I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from among his people. 11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life. 12Therefore I have said to the people of Israel, No person among you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger who sojourns among you eat blood.

13"Any one also of the people of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn among them, who takes in hunting any beast or bird that may be eaten shall pour out its blood and cover it with earth. 14For the life of every creature is its blood: its blood is its life. Therefore I have said to the people of Israel, You shall not eat the blood of any creature, for the life of every creature is its blood. Whoever eats it shall be cut off. 15 And every person who eats what dies of itself or what is torn by beasts, whether he is a native or a sojourner, shall wash his clothes and bathe himself in water and be unclean until the evening; then he shall be clean. 16But if he does not wash them or bathe his flesh, he shall bear his iniquity."

Deuteronomy 12:23 Only be sure that you do not eat the blood, for the blood is the life, and you shall not eat the life with the flesh.

Did Jesus break the OT law by eating His own flesh and blood at the time of the Last Supper?

6,120 posted on 12/28/2010 7:57:29 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom

The bread and wine became the consecrated host. Whether this is what you mean by “the literal flesh and blood of Jesus” I have no way of knowing. If it is the same, yes; if not, no.

I haven’t checked specifically whether Jesus also partook or only offered to His disciples; you may wish to do so, I don’t see it as more than a curiousity. And I haven’t pondered what it would mean if the Divine partook of Communion with the Divine. It’s like a square circle kind of question to me.

Underneath all your questions is a profound lack of understanding about the Holy Eucharist and the Divine in general. A very materialistic view reminiscent of the charges against early Christians who had to hide away in catacombs to celebrate the Eucharist. It helps me understand them better and I thank you for that. I’m also extremely grateful that here today for me the defense of the faith in Christ’s institution of the sacrament only requires answering verbal charges on the internet secure in my home.

You are the first I’ve seen level the same type of charge against Jesus Christ in regards to the Holy Eucharist though.

So while there is nothing new in today’s heresies and charges that the Church did not see in its early history, I recognize your creativity. I believe our Orthodox brothers would say “only in the West...”

:)


6,121 posted on 12/28/2010 8:13:47 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: annalex

Annalex, it is not a contradiction, and i have labored at length to explain it to you, yet you continue to entertain an erroneous conception of what Protestantism means as “faith alone.” Which again, essentially means that it is not by any merit of works (as per Rome) but by faith which is imputed for righteousness, yet which is a faith that bears fruit corresponding to conversion. Behind all works are beliefs.

Here is one last one from the Protestant WESTMINSTER
CONFESSION OF FAITH (1646), which is a most foundational Protestant document:

CHAPTER XI.
Of Justification.

“Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and his righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification; yet is it not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love.”

There is an overeaction within Protestantism as regards this, but it is time to do away with the strawman and accept the most historical facts that it is a faith which works by love that is salvific which the Reformers taught.


6,122 posted on 12/28/2010 8:32:30 PM PST by daniel1212 ( "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out," Acts 3:19)
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To: metmom

Your post of Leviticus can expand on John 6: “From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.” And the parallel with your post is that you seem to be joining them based on your post.

You also seem to be confusing physical nourishment with the Holy Eucharist.

Though they are quite separate concepts of “meals,” if you’re looking for something concerning Christians and Jewish laws about eating, surely you remember Christ’s and Paul’s words in Holy Scripture.


6,123 posted on 12/28/2010 8:36:02 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr

I appreciate this post.

“Underneath all your questions...”

There are endless questions—questions which have been posted time and time and time again and repeatedly posted again. The answers are never accepted. This leaves me wondering what is the purpose of the endless and repetitive questions.


6,124 posted on 12/28/2010 8:36:35 PM PST by Running On Empty ((The three sorriest words: "It's too late"))
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To: metmom; annalex; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; ...
Annalex: Sure I can, because it is a knowledge possessed by the Church, which is not expressed in the scripture.

This is the heresy of Gnosticism. One of the primary beliefs in Gnosticism was the possession of "secret knowledge" by the chosen few. It would be good to repent of it.

6,125 posted on 12/28/2010 8:55:07 PM PST by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: wmfights
This is the heresy of Gnosticism. One of the primary beliefs in Gnosticism was the possession of "secret knowledge" by the chosen few. It would be good to repent of it.

We are past the mystery stage. God has reveled to us all that we need to know.

Claiming extra-Biblical revelation is a hallmark of cultic activity.

Ephesians 3:1-13 1For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner for Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles— 2assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly. 4 When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. 6This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

7 Of this gospel I was made a minister according to the gift of God’s grace, which was given me by the working of his power. 8To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things, 10so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. 11This was according to the eternal purpose that he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through our faith in him. 13So I ask you not to lose heart over what I am suffering for you, which is your glory.

Colossians 1:24-29 24Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, 26 the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints. 27 To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28Him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone mature in Christ. 29For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me.

6,126 posted on 12/28/2010 9:12:32 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: D-fendr; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; count-your-change; ...

You post lots of words and they say nothing.

I have brought no charge against Christ, but you have indeed shown that you answered *yes* to the question.

Jesus called the cup *the fruit of the vine*.

Catholics want to have their cake and eat it too. They claim that it’s both as the same time, but that can’t be. If Jesus said that it was His blood and Catholics insist that it really is, then He was either lying when He called it the fruit of the vine, or He violated the Law that He claimed He came to fulfill. Either one would render Him incapable of being the spotless lamb of God who died for the sins of the world. He would have sinned if He had actually drank His own blood.

So, the choice is the Catholics. Was it really blood that He and they drank, which made them lawbreakers and liars?

Or was it wine that they drank as a symbolic representation of what He was going to do?


6,127 posted on 12/28/2010 9:23:56 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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ph


6,128 posted on 12/28/2010 9:24:47 PM PST by xone
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To: metmom

C )
Or was Christ instituting the Sacrament of Holy Eucharist as Scripture attests, and the Apostles believed and the One Holy and Apostolic Church believes to this day?

Once you leave the Church so much is lost: The Sacraments, the Communion of Saints, One Holy and Apostolic Church… It is truly a great sorrowful loss.

Relevant to this discussion, what is also lost is your individual claim to decide what the Church believed and believes.


6,129 posted on 12/28/2010 9:48:15 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: wmfights; metmom; annalex
Annalex stated..." a knowledge possessed by the Church, which is NOT expressed in the scripture." Wmfights reply...."This is the heresy of Gnosticism. One of the primary beliefs in Gnosticism was the possession of "secret knowledge" by the chosen few. It would be good to repent of it.

You are spot on Wmfights. The same Gnosticism that permeated the church in the dark ages continues to this day within the catholic church. As Metmom has so amptly said.."catholics want it both ways"...they straddle the fence.... Thus they miss the mark of the high calling which is in Christ Jesus...and instead bask in the aura's of their own self-made doctrines and traditions.

I still think they hold tightly to the church and rome, rather than Christ, because doing so feeds their egos and their desire for self importance...especially those who have entrenched themselves in catholic writings and various authors over the centuries. Some read and study so that they might not feel alone, just as many of the ancient authors did. It fills the emptyness within rather than Christ and a relationship with Him.

6,130 posted on 12/28/2010 9:52:13 PM PST by caww
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To: D-fendr; metmom
Once you leave the Church so much is lost: The Sacraments, the Communion of Saints, One Holy and Apostolic Church… It is truly a great sorrowful loss........ Relevant to this discussion, what is also lost is your individual claim to decide what the Church believed and believes.

It is interesting that you did not mention how leaving the catholic church might affect ones relationship with Christ? I would think one might sense more of a loss of His fellowship if all the catholic church claims were indeed true.

Perhaps others who have left the church might better say if or not their relationship with Christ was lost or in fact was enlarged and better for leaving.

I say this because some people have a "need" to practice rituals....they might feel like a fish out of water without participating in these. So over time they very well might return in order to again 'feel significant' since practicing these rituals does fill otherwise voids in ones life....they do not know how to stand by faith alone.

6,131 posted on 12/28/2010 10:09:00 PM PST by caww
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To: caww

I did mention it. It’s just that we don’t share the same understanding of the word “church”

The Church is the Body of Christ with Christ as the head. It is our spiritual home of the Sacramental Life in communion with God and all the saints.


6,132 posted on 12/28/2010 10:12:52 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: Kolokotronis
See...you knew this all along. You were just thinking about it in more anthropomorphic and concrete terms than we do.

Alright, when you put it like you did I agree with all of it. I'll stick to easy language like that. :)

6,133 posted on 12/28/2010 10:17:07 PM PST by Forest Keeper ((It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.))
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To: D-fendr
The fact is catholics do make the things of God very confusing which is why it's so difficult communicating with them. Jesus spoke clearly to the crowds....the simple and the learned were attracted to what He had to say. But we know that thru His life and the history of the Christian church...not many learned were called to Him...rather the simple...His Apostles attest to this.

A Christians spiritual home should be hidden in Christ... and their communion with is with Him. Those who attend a church reflect Him....the church itself is nothing apart from the centrality of Christ and the relationships individuals have with Him...no matter how many “Sacramental” rituals are practiced.

6,134 posted on 12/28/2010 10:30:37 PM PST by caww
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To: caww

I understand, I think, what you are inferring about how I, or others, feel in the Church.

From my perspective, this is not accurate. To me your view is like asking: What is the least I can accept of God’s gifts to me. How can I isolate myself to the greatest degree from all it means to be part of the Body of Christ? This would be the way to “feel significant” in your words rather than the opposite.

It recalls to my mind Christ’s prayer in the garden and believe that life in His Church is the way He intended. It is living as one body that the individual self is decreased and God in our lives increased.


6,135 posted on 12/28/2010 10:33:34 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: caww
The fact is catholics do make the things of God very confusing

I converted late in life and this was my worry as well. Three realizations of mine apply:

First, the Church is huge. I mean that in terms of individual spirituality and room. Having been three stripes of Protestant, I recognized pieces of each in the Church, but all harmonized. I gravitated toward what was natural to me, but recognized others doing the same in different directions.

The point here is that there is room for all types, but no necessity for any one to be completely familiar with the territory of them all.

Second, the Church is very old and therefore has a long and rich history - art, philosophy, science, politics, spiritual practice, scripture, theology, etc - tons of it.

The point here is there is a lot of stuff, but again, no one need become expert in all of it.

Thirdly, the Sacramental Life, the basics of life in the Church, is extremely simple. To me it was like going from Windows to Macintosh - most of the problem was in trying to complicate what was simple. For example, the Mass is in a very large part, the same each week. And the Eucharist is one degree different than God's omnipresence.

I experience the Church simply. Like experiencing the warmth of the sun. It just is. Truth is not an argument. The Word is not reducible to words.

It's arguing theology that's confusing.

:)

6,136 posted on 12/28/2010 10:50:24 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr
To me your view is like asking: What is the least I can accept of God’s gifts to me. How can I isolate myself to the greatest degree from all it means to be part of the Body of Christ? This would be the way to “feel significant” in your words rather than the opposite.

I don't think that at all...perhaps you missed my point and I was not clear enough.

I realize all the window dressing in certain churches is an attraction to some...and the catholic rituals equally as much.

But when these become the focus...rather than learning about Christ, His life, and our call as Christians, then we stop being the reflection of Christ to an unsaved world and become an institute or simply a building where people meet and go thru the motions of "churchianity". Which is pretty much what I have seen and heard from catholics.

Rather than lifting up Christ, everything else is... and His name is simply attached to whatever might be showcased at the moment...more as an afterthought.

6,137 posted on 12/28/2010 10:54:17 PM PST by caww
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To: caww

Hey, something we agree upon.

I would only add that:

- learning about Christ does not just mean bible study - or any other intellectual activity.
- Rituals are not bad in themselves, and referencing your previous point, they help simplify.

I still think we have different perceptions of what “church” is. I do know personally that what was church before my conversion is very different from what it is to me now.


6,138 posted on 12/28/2010 11:02:53 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: Kolokotronis; stfassisi; kosta50; MarkBsnr; boatbums; maryz; metmom
What possible sovereignty can mankind have that does not have its origins in Him?

Man can have total sovereignty over his own salvation if the belief is that God delegated His own sovereignty away from Himself. If God actually made that transfer, the sovereignty then belongs to man, not God.

Well, if God created us, as we are told, in His image and likeness, we would be endowed with the divine attribute of Free Will, would we not?

I don't think it is comparable. I would say that only God's will is truly free. Our free will is completely subjugated to His free will. Whenever different, His will overrides ours every time. That's what Jesus prayed for.

The Church has always taught that mankind was created having the potential to become like God. That potential was lost in the Fall and restored by the Incarnation. But I would like to hear why you think God created mankind. Did He create some for theosis and some for damnation and if so, why?

The standard general answer for why God created man is for His good pleasure, as in:

Rev. 4:11 : “You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.”

We know God had no need for man, and that He wasn't "lonely" or anything like that. We can only say that it pleased Him to create us and establish a relationship with us in worship and prayer. He wishes to be our God and for us to be His people.

In this light I would say that God created no one FOR THE PURPOSE of reprobating them. He created all of us for the same purpose, and part of His good pleasure is evidently that some will be with Him in eternal life and some will not. Ultimately, the creation of every person will bring glory to God, but that will manifest itself in very different ways.


6,139 posted on 12/29/2010 12:31:16 AM PST by Forest Keeper ((It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.))
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To: kosta50; Kolokotronis; MarkBsnr; metmom; stfassisi; OLD REGGIE; boatbums
FK: Alright, if the Son and Spirit can both be caused, come into existence, AND be eternal all at the same time, then this faith is definitely too hard for me. :)

But believing in talking snakes and donkeys and dead people getting up and walking away is not? :)

Nah, I see talking snakes and talking asses all the time when I flip on C-SPAN, and we've all seen dead people voting in places like Chicago and Louisiana for years. :)

6,140 posted on 12/29/2010 12:38:31 AM PST by Forest Keeper ((It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.))
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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; kosta50; MarkBsnr; boatbums; maryz; metmom
Our free will is completely subjugated to His free will. Whenever different, His will overrides ours every time.

According to this, Hitler, Pol Pot, Mao and every mass murderer was doing the will of God since their wills are "completely subjugated to His free will" as you are saying.

6,141 posted on 12/29/2010 4:27:42 AM PST by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: metmom

I see.


6,142 posted on 12/29/2010 5:41:57 AM PST by Mr. Lucky
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To: metmom; D-fendr
Did Jesus break the OT law by eating His own flesh and blood at the time of the Last Supper?

I have been following this discussion for quite some time now. Where does it say that Jesus ate and drank after those words? What I find fascinating is that even though the so-called Gospel of John says that Jesus called his blood true drink and his flesh true meat the Protestants refuse to accept it as such, and insist that "true" in only metaphorical!

Your vain attempt to justify your argument by citing the Law is pointless because even Jesus calling his blood the blood of the "new testament" (or covenant) is violating the Law which says the Torah is eternal, and must be observed forever.

6,143 posted on 12/29/2010 7:05:45 AM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; MarkBsnr; metmom; stfassisi; OLD REGGIE; boatbums
Kosta: But believing [that the Son and the Spirit were caused yet existed eternally] in talking snakes and donkeys and dead people getting up and walking away is not? :)

FK: Nah, I see talking snakes and talking asses all the time when I flip on C-SPAN, and we've all seen dead people voting in places like Chicago and Louisiana for years. :)

That much more, since this has bene going on forever. :)

6,144 posted on 12/29/2010 7:10:07 AM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: Forest Keeper; kosta50; MarkBsnr; metmom; stfassisi; OLD REGGIE; boatbums
"we've all seen dead people voting in places like Chicago and Louisiana for years. :) "

We are told that those who die in Christ are not really dead. It stands to reason, therefore, that they have as much right to vote as anyone else!

6,145 posted on 12/29/2010 7:17:07 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: kosta50

This is, yet again, an attempt by the Usual Suspects to make the Eucharist strictly symbolic. The argument goes, “If it wasn’t symbolic, then Christ broke the Law, and Christ never broke the Law.”

Except when He healed a man on the Sabbath, or publicly forgave a man his sins which only God could do, or interrupted the legal stoning of the woman taken in adultery, or ate grain from a field on the Sabbath...

We get around all that by saying that Christ fulfilled the Law, which He did. But it’s wrong to think He was being symbolic, when He specifically said, “My flesh is real meat, and My blood is true drink.” Followers left Him at that point, driven away by the forbidden cannibalistic implications. He did not call them back and say, “Hey, I was only kidding, it was symbolic.”


6,146 posted on 12/29/2010 7:26:12 AM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: metmom; D-fendr; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; ...
mm, Christ's own words tell us that His flesh (σάρξ, sarx, a great word. There is a variation of it in the Creed, σαρκωθέντα, sarxothenta, enfleshed) is truly food and His Blood truly drink. The Greek, at John 6:55 is crystal clear:

ἡ γὰρ σάρξ μου ἀληθής ἐστιν βρῶσις, καὶ τὸ αἷμά μου ἀληθής ἐστιν πόσις.

In fact, the whole passage, John 6:47-59, especially in the Greek, makes it clear that Christ was being quite literal about us eating His flesh and drinking His blood.

6,147 posted on 12/29/2010 7:37:53 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: caww
Well said, thanks for adding to the point I was reaching for.
6,148 posted on 12/29/2010 7:38:43 AM PST by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; stfassisi; MarkBsnr; boatbums; maryz; metmom
Man can have total sovereignty over his own salvation if the belief is that God delegated His own sovereignty away from Himself

That's not what Kolo said. He said man's sovereignty has its origin in God. St. Paul says so much when he urges that everyone obey all earthly authority, because all authority is (i.e. originates) from God (and is delegated to appointed rulers and princes).

Deuteronomy 30:14 states that we can do what is necessary to be saved (although Paul chooses to misquote it in Romans 10:8).

Jesus tells different people, not just his disciples, what they must do to be saved, to enter the kingdom of heaven, to be with him in the next world, etc. Yes, he also says you must believe, but you also must do certain things (which almost no one does) in order to go through that narrow gate.

I don't think it is comparable. I would say that only God's will is truly free

Good for you, for there are many a Protestant who says that God had [sic] to become man! I am sure you'd agree with them on such "core beliefs". :)

Our free will is completely subjugated to His free will

Does that include Satan's will as well? Is Satan merely doing God's will?

Whenever different, His will overrides ours every time

So, then, we are to give praise and thanks to God for every Holocaust-like event because it was his will??? You've got to be kidding, FK! How many other Protestants share this "core belief" of yours?

God created no one FOR THE PURPOSE of reprobating them. He created all of us for the same purpose, and part of His good pleasure is evidently that some will be with Him in eternal life and some will not.

And those who will not are those who did not have faith (because he didn't give it to them specifically so that they may be "lost"!) and for that they will spend eternity in hell, punished for sins they had to commit, all for the pleasure and glory of this God!

Ultimately, the creation of every person will bring glory to God, but that will manifest itself in very different ways.

And since all do his will (because, remember, he overrides theirs if it is different form his), some are destined to do evil and some are destined to do good; no matter how you turn it around it is still God's doing (or overriding), FK, be it good or evil. Is this another Protestant "core belief"?

6,149 posted on 12/29/2010 7:49:58 AM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: Judith Anne
We get around all that by saying that Christ fulfilled the Law, which He did

If we had an open forum with Jewish posters willing to participate on this issue, it would be clear that this is not possible without God himself abrogating his own word, but I do understand that this is essential doctrine for Christians and that it is a core belief which cannot be compromised, or else the whole thing falls apart.

But it’s wrong to think He was being symbolic, when He specifically said, “My flesh is real meat, and My blood is true drink.” Followers left Him at that point, driven away by the forbidden cannibalistic implications. He did not call them back and say, “Hey, I was only kidding, it was symbolic.”

You are thinking logically and clearly, JA. No one walked away when he said he was the vine and they were the branches, or when he said he was the light, and the way, just as no one walks away when we speak of the "Christian heart" for that matter, because no one takes these expressions literally.

His followers left him, as you say, because they understood his words as literal cannibalistic implications and Jesus made no effor to dispel their impression.

6,150 posted on 12/29/2010 8:08:55 AM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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