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In Christ Alone (Happy reformation day)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExnTlIM5QgE ^ | Getty, Julian Keith; Townend, Stuart Richard;

Posted on 10/31/2010 11:59:22 AM PDT by RnMomof7

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To: Judith Anne

I think you’re misunderstanding the angels announcement to Mary at Luke 1:35. Mary was to be “overshadowed” by God’s power. There is no hint in Scripture of Mary being sinless or a reason for her to be so.
The child born was holy and called God’s Son because of that overshadowing or power of God’s Spirit.

Mary as a descendant of the sinner Adam grew old and died as had all other descendants of Adam.


6,861 posted on 01/07/2011 3:55:07 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Judith Anne
You make it sound like women have no sin nature

My wife comes close!!!! I think that only a heavenly angel could put up with the likes of me. :)

But your point on Mary is well spoken. How could the God-man Jesus be conceived in and held in the tabernacle of her womb if it were not pure and she without sin? Can the Almighty exist as a developing fetus, with umbilical cord exchanging blood and nutrients, inside a sinful mother? Wouldn't the very physical interchange of fluids and other materials between Jesus and Mary ensure that she was pure? Could she even exist in such physical contact with God if she were not pure? After all, nobody can enter the Kingdom of Heaven with the least trace of impurity. Wouldn't the same be for Mary?

6,862 posted on 01/07/2011 3:58:46 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: MarkBsnr

Our dear husbands want us on a pedestal, but we know that we stand in need of Christ’s salvation as much as any man. Goodness will not get us to heaven, only Christ Jesus. No woman can be good enough to save herself, even Mary. Christ was her Savior, and her God, and preserved her from all stain of sin, she acknowledged that.


6,863 posted on 01/07/2011 4:07:39 PM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: count-your-change; metmom
"Humans inherit from their maternal parent too but as the angel said, Holy Spirit was going to operate in a very special way, it would overshadow her, so that the child born by God’s power, God’s Son, would be holy, without sin, without that sinful inclination.

Thus Mary needed no cleansing from sin and no such cleansing or immaculateness is ever attributed to her in Scripture.

As Paul said, ‘death spread to all men (humans)’ Mary grew old and died as a descendant of Adam."

Excellent, cyc, absolutely excellent!!! And thus the Holy and God bearing Fathers of the 4th Ecumenical Council declared:

"THEREFORE, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the Godbearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us."

6,864 posted on 01/07/2011 4:22:05 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: annalex

I meant to ping you to #6864


6,865 posted on 01/07/2011 4:23:20 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: Kolokotronis

If there’s some connection between what I wrote and your reply I must have missed it but “Excellent, cyc, absolutely excellent!!!” is something I shall treasure forever, FOR EVER and EVER, I shall!!


6,866 posted on 01/07/2011 4:35:12 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change
"If there’s some connection between what I wrote and your reply I must have missed it"

You'll get there...!

"“Excellent, cyc, absolutely excellent!!!” is something I shall treasure forever, FOR EVER and EVER, I shall!!"

I honestly meant it, cyc.

6,867 posted on 01/07/2011 4:38:40 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: Kolokotronis

And I was having a bit of a go at you with that. My sarcasms may bite but they are all gums.

O.K., K., why excellent? I’LL play straight man.


6,868 posted on 01/07/2011 4:54:27 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change
"O.K., K., why excellent? I’LL play straight man."

Because what you wrote was distinctly Eastern Christian Patristic, and not at all Western Christian, theology.

6,869 posted on 01/07/2011 5:02:43 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: Judith Anne

Real men find real women and love them completely and put them on a pedestal.

But your point is taken; all human beings without God are lost.


6,870 posted on 01/07/2011 5:09:43 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Kolokotronis
Because what you wrote was distinctly Eastern Christian Patristic, and not at all Western Christian, theology.

Well, more distinctly Eastern Patristic, anyway...

6,871 posted on 01/07/2011 5:32:01 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: metmom; Judith Anne; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; Quix; ...
The sin nature comes from the man, not the woman. Eve was deceived. Adam sinned deliberately.

The reason Jesus could be born sin free is because the sin nature comes through the man, not the woman. God was Jesus' father. No sin nature.

Amen. Great post all around.

This is basic Christianity 101 and I'm embarrassed to say I didn't really learn it until a few years ago right here on the FR RF. Probably from one of the saints pinged above.

But don't worry, Judith. Now that you know the sin nature is passed through the father, you won't have to mistakenly tell us that our sin nature comes through the mother.

And God willing, this fact will help RCs further to understand why it was not necessary (as Rome insists) that Mary be sinless in order to give birth to a blameless, sinless Christ. God was His Father, and thus no sin nature was imparted.

So Adam and his male progeny get most of the blame in messing things up in Eden. As women, we can play dumb and hum along -- "I didn't know you was a snake when I took you in."

6,872 posted on 01/07/2011 5:39:11 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose))
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To: caww

She was forgiven from sin she didn’t commit and was kept from sinning before she committed the sin.

You know, kind of like that movie that was out a couple years ago where they could tell if someone was going to break the law and they’d jail him before he could commit the crime to keep him from committing it.


6,873 posted on 01/07/2011 5:53:08 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

LOL

I wonder . . . how many men become snakes because their woman makes them crawl so much?


6,874 posted on 01/07/2011 5:54:11 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Judith Anne; Dr. Eckleburg; Quix

“ALL have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God. WOMEN AND MEN.”

...you have it! You finally get it!!! Including Mary!

“Mary was the only one preserved from sin, that was to bear Christ.”

...drat. You lost it.

It’s amazing to see the contradiction so plainly stated by you and yet... it is believed by you. I don’t get it.

If Mary was sinless, she needed no savior. Yet, she offered sacrifices for her sins... she called Jesus her savior... Someone who is sinless need do neither thing.

“Mary was saved from all stain of original sin;”

I’m sure you wouldn’t mind sourcing that to scripture...??

Hoss


6,875 posted on 01/07/2011 5:54:34 PM PST by HossB86
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Judith Anne
This is basic Christianity 101 and I'm embarrassed to say I didn't really learn it until a few years ago right here on the FR RF. Probably from one of the saints pinged above.

Let me guess: you base it exclusively on Romans 5:12. And nowhere else. Let us see what it actually says:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

Basic Christianity 101? Let me remind you that Jewishness is matrilinear. Sin nature passed through the father? There is no evidence that it is exclusive. Is there anything that you guys get right about Christianity?

6,876 posted on 01/07/2011 6:02:24 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Judith Anne

Stop building strawmen to knock down.

Focus here.

I never said that all people don’t have a sin nature and that all people don’t sin, with the exception of Jesus. The Bible says that ALL have sinned, which, BTW includes Mary otherwise Scripture is wrong.

But SCRIPTURE clearly says that the sin nature comes through the man. That’s why Jesus was sinless, because His father was not human with a sin nature, but God without one.

Since you obviously don’t accept the Scriptural reason why Jesus was without sin, what is YOUR reason that HE was without sin.

What Scripture can you use to demonstrate that the sin nature comes through the mother and not the father as you claim?


6,877 posted on 01/07/2011 6:03:46 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom; Dr. Eckleburg; Judith Anne; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; ...
The sin nature comes from the man, not the woman. Eve was deceived. Adam sinned deliberately.

Absolutely correct. You get the golden star today. Paul not only says this once but twice in scripture. Yet I don't know HOW many preachers and commentaries state that Adam and Eve sinned as if their sins were equal. They both sinned but sin came into the world through man-not woman.

But the question the Catholics never seem to have an answer for is that if God was able to keep Mary from sinning, why doesn't He just keep every one of us from sinning? If God wants everyone saved, then why doesn't He simply will everyone not to sin like the Catholics states that He did with Mary?

The obvious answer is that not everyone is meant to be saved. That's just the way it is.

BTW-I like Dr. E toe tapper. :O)

6,878 posted on 01/07/2011 6:06:30 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: HossB86
No Scripture, of course.

It's just

MORE

UNBiblical
Fabled Farcical Fallacious Fanatical Far-out Fatuous Faulty Fairyland Faked Fantasies
from the
Vatican Alice In Wonderland School of Theology And Reality Mangling!

They never seem to tire spinning them and foisting them on the sheeple.

6,879 posted on 01/07/2011 6:06:38 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: HossB86
If Mary was sinless, she needed no savior. Yet, she offered sacrifices for her sins... she called Jesus her savior... Someone who is sinless need do neither thing.

We are saved by Christ Jesus after we are born into sin; Mary was preserved from that by Christ Jesus, her Savior, before she was born. She still needed her Savior, Christ was her Savior as He is ours.

This discussion is fruitless. It makes no difference if I explain my beliefs, you (plural) give no evidence that you (plural) care what they are. It appears that you (plural) are simply playing gotcha, forgetting that we Catholics are not limited as you are to Holy Scripture, but also have Holy Tradition to guide us.

6,880 posted on 01/07/2011 6:16:52 PM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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