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Casting Lots Over Israel...Joel 3
http://billrandles.wordpress.com/ ^ | 11-09-10 | bill Randles

Posted on 11/07/2010 6:51:51 AM PST by pastorbillrandles

For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.(Joel 3:1-3)

The prophet Joel saw the Last days as an international trial , with the nations of the world in the docket, and the God of the Universe handing them a 4 count indictment.

The first charge was that the nations scattered God’s people without mercy, even furthering the affliction He had ordained for them because of their unfaithfulness.

The second count against the nations of the world was that they had participated in the partitioning of the Holy Land that God had given to Abraham ,Isaac and Jacob and their seed forever.

The Land was not theirs to mete out, nor for them to decide its fate. The God of the Bible, and of Abraham,Isaac and Jacob, and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, He alone it is who owns the Holy Land, to dispose of as He sees fit. But the nations have a controversy with Him!(See Psalm 2:1-4!)

The third count is that the nations of the world have “cast lots” for God’s people. As we said earlier, now is the only time in history where this strange charge can even possibly be made.

Where do the Nations of the world meet together to “Cast Lots” for God’s people? There is indeed a congress of nations which casts lots regularly for God’s people, (among a few other things). I speak of the UN.

Interestingly, The UN is composed of 192 member states, 57 of which are Islamic, and virtually vote as a bloc. The member states are divided into several regional groupings of which turns are taken to serve on the UN security council.

Israel is the only state in the UN which is not put in a regional grouping, and thus which cannot serve on the UN human rights council! Libya has served on it!

Neither can Israel ever serve on the UN security council. In 2002 Syria was put on the US state dept list of terrorist states, yet in that same year Syria served on the security council.

The statistics are stunning, for example as of 2002,

* The Security Council had passed 175 total resolutions. 74 of these were neutral to Israel, 97 were against Israel, 4 went against perceived Arab interests.

*The U.N. General Assembly voted 7,938 times for Israel, but 55,642 times against her interests!

*The U.N. Security council(which Israel is barred from sitting on),has either “condemned”,”censured”, “deplored”, or “strongly deplored” Israel 49 times!

*The Security council has passed 131 resolutions, of which 43 were neutral. But 88 of them criticised or opposed Israel, and never an Arab state ,Arab body, nor even the PLO,which is the “father” of modern terrorism!

* The U.N. general assembly has passed 429 resolutions against Israel, and 56 against any Arab states. They have either “condemned”,”vigorously condemned”,”strongly condemned”,”deplored”,”strongly deplored”,”censured” or “denounced” Israel 321 times, and never the Arabs!

There is something dreadfully wrong here, this is more than bias and prejudice, it is satanic and will bring the world into Judgment!

Quoting best-selling author and Bible scholar Dave Hunt ,

“More than 60,000 Individual votes have been cast in the U.N. condemning Israel. Yet not once has the U.N. reprimanded those who have without provocation waged four wars of aggression against Israel with the declared intention of annihilating her. Nor have the terrorists been condemned by the U.N. In November 2003, Israel introduced its first request for a resolution since 1976, asking for a prohibition against Arab terrorists who deliberately target Israeli women and children. Its request was rejected and instead, the U.N. adopted a resolution demanding protection of Palestinian children from Israeli aggression. The U.N.’s adamant opposition to Israel and everything it does is in defiance of the God of Israel and His pledge to restore His people to their promised land.”(Dave Hunt, ‘The Battle For Jerusalem, Chapter 6 of ‘The Gathering Storm’, Mal Couch Gen Ed, 21st Century Press, Springfield, MO, 2005, p. 129]:)


TOPICS: Current Events; History; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: israel; jesusendtimes; joel
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1 posted on 11/07/2010 6:51:56 AM PST by pastorbillrandles
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To: pastorbillrandles

Thanks for posting this. Prayers for Israel, IDF, and our troops in the Middle East. Interesting times.


3 posted on 11/07/2010 7:44:29 AM PST by MonicaG (God bless our military! Praying and thanking God for you every day. Thank you!)
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To: RJR_fan

One would hope that all Christian men would be a better husband, father and Christian by being informed and knowing where to stand in the future. Especially when it’s time to vote.


4 posted on 11/07/2010 7:51:35 AM PST by Jen Shroder
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To: RJR_fan
No true Christian can fail to support Israel, for it is the embodiment of God's will for Jews. If you doubt this, I suggest you read the Bible very closely.
Is Israel perfect? Of course not, but what political entity is perfect?
Now, Israel may have been founded by individuals whose political orientation leaned toward socialism, but those individuals are long gone. The Israeli economy and body politic has undergone an enormous transformation and evolution since the War of Independence, but that is to be expected, as states who embrace democracy always evolve and change. And more change can be expected.
Indeed, it is Israel's opponents who have failed to change. For the most part they are still the state directed autocracies they were when they became independent.
Of course, Muslims are human beings. Who has denied that?
Focus for evangelism - wonderful phrase, but one for the most part that is devoid of realistic thinking. It would be wonderful if Muslims were to embrace Christianity, but mass conversion is very unlikely. Islam is demonically inspired religion and as such has a violent and potent grip on Muslims. They will not be persuaded to abandon the faith easily. Such an act would take a miracle that is beyond human capacity.
Muslims as pawns - if anyone has shuffled Muslims around a chessboard it is other Muslims. They have exploited and manipulated other Muslims since the founding of the faith. Palestinians could have easily been absorbed into Jordan, as its population is already majority Palestinian, but every Arab/Muslim state refused the opportunity. Now, we are faced with a large, disaffected Palestinian population that squats in Gaza and the West Bank with no prospects and no hope, except for the rather forlorn (at least until Obama became president) hope that the US will force Israel to relinquish some of its historic homeland.
Muslim states refused to accommodate Israel for many reasons but mostly for reasons of pride, the most deadly of sins. They could not bring themselves to admit that a despised minority, the Jews, were capable of reestablishing a national homeland in a area considered to be a Muslim religious trust. Muslims have created a violent situation and now wish someone else to solve it for them.
5 posted on 11/07/2010 7:52:40 AM PST by quadrant (1o)
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To: pastorbillrandles

Thanks so much for posting this...I KNEW there was a reason I needed to check in here today! Excellent read and something all Americans need to understand, though few do.


6 posted on 11/07/2010 7:55:57 AM PST by Jen Shroder
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To: quadrant
No true Christian can fail to support Israel, for it is the embodiment of God's will for Jews.

False. One may have geopolitical reasons for supporting modern Israel, but it is sin against truth to say there is a Christian obligation to do so. "Christian" Zionism is the Nineteenth Century invention of John Darby taken up by charlatans such as John Scofield and John Hagee. The worldly doctrine is entirely dependent upon novel interpretation of opaque prophesy and is directly contradicted by the clear teachings of the Gospels and Epistles.

7 posted on 11/07/2010 9:10:58 AM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: mas cerveza por favor
Not so. The US has important “geopolitical” reasons for supporting Israel, but those are not the only reasons - or even the most compelling - for supporting the Jewish state.
In fact it may be argued with some slight validity that supporting Israel is against the “geopolitical” interests of the US. I don't believe that, but I admit an argument can be made for that position.
Never read a word of John Darby or John Scofield and their opinions mean nothing to me. I do my best to ignore Mr Hagee. Please detail for me the “clear teachings” of the Gospels and the Epistles that forbid Christians from supporting Israel. I've read both several times and never reached that conclusion to any degree whatsoever. Prophesies that give the land the Jews and predict the reestablishment of Israel may be opaque to you, but they are clear to me and many others. Moreover, the Gospels and the Epistles are the most important parts of the Bible for Christians, but those sections are not the only parts. The Bible for Christians should be as seamless as Jesus’ cloak.
8 posted on 11/07/2010 10:20:26 AM PST by quadrant (1o)
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To: mas cerveza por favor
>>The worldly doctrine is entirely dependent upon novel interpretation of opaque prophesy and is directly contradicted by the clear teachings of the Gospels and Epistles.<<

If you believe that your interpretation of forever is much different then anyone I have ever encountered or any dictionary for that matter.

9 posted on 11/07/2010 10:20:59 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear

Christian apologetics is filled with explanations of why ‘forever’ doesn’t really mean ‘forever’. One might go so for as to say that the truth of Christianity depends on ‘forever’ not meaning ‘forever’ in certain cases.


10 posted on 11/07/2010 10:43:43 AM PST by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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Comment #11 Removed by Moderator

Comment #12 Removed by Moderator

To: quadrant
It would be wonderful if Muslims were to embrace Christianity, but mass conversion is very unlikely. Islam is demonically inspired religion and as such has a violent and potent grip on Muslims. They will not be persuaded to abandon the faith easily. Such an act would take a miracle that is beyond human capacity.

I hope you will join me in praying for exactly that miracle. Before The Wall came down, Soviet Communism looked unassailable, and the "smart" people in the West were constantly cutting secret deals with perceived winning side. Whittaker Chambers felt, when he left The Party, that he'd joined the losing side. Yet, almost overnight, a whole worldview shattered. I was in Ukraine in 1992, and those folks were devastated that the whole justification for their disciplined, sacrificial lives was discredited. They were also eager to hear the Gospel.

Pending such a miracle, I take joy in the progress the Gospel is making today in Iran. More Persians have come to Christ there since 1980 than in the thousand years before. Islam depends on a series of cultural and linguistic firewalls -- but information technology is breaching those.

Meanwhile, millions of the best and brightest young people from Muslim nations are pursuing American degrees. Most are eager to make American friends -- but only 10% or so will see the inside of an American home. Since God has brought them halfway around the world, why not go halfway across town? English is a weird language, and coaching / editing from us can be a career lifeline for them.

13 posted on 11/07/2010 11:11:45 AM PST by RJR_fan (Christians need to reclaim and excel in the genre of science fiction.)
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To: jjotto
>>One might go so for as to say that the truth of Christianity depends on ‘forever’ not meaning ‘forever’ in certain cases.<<

I would like to hear in what case Biblically that would be true.

14 posted on 11/07/2010 11:25:27 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: quadrant; CynicalBear
Never read a word of John Darby or John Scofield and their opinions mean nothing to me. I do my best to ignore Mr Hagee.

It is universal Christian teaching among Catholics, East Orthodoxy, and all Protestant denominations founded prior to John Darby that the Jews who followed their Messiah, and those Gentiles who joined them, were the sole inheritors of the Abrahamic blessings. Any who reject Christ are "broken off" from the tree of Israel until they return to the fold by faith. DNA without a reciprocating faithfulness to the Covenant counts for nothing.

Prophesies that give the land the Jews and predict the reestablishment of Israel may be opaque to you, but they are clear to me and many others. Moreover, the Gospels and the Epistles are the most important parts of the Bible for Christians, but those sections are not the only parts. The Bible for Christians should be as seamless as Jesus’ cloak.

Re-read the prophesy at the top of this thread and the worldly interpretation which directly contradicts Romans 11, Matthew 3:9, Luke 3:8, John 8:33, etc., etc., etc.

15 posted on 11/07/2010 11:42:31 AM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: CynicalBear; jjotto
>>One might go so for as to say that the truth of Christianity depends on ‘forever’ not meaning ‘forever’ in certain cases.<<
I would like to hear in what case Biblically that would be true.

As I understand it, rabbinical Judaism teaches that the Messianic promises of the Old Testament do not apply to Christ or His followers and characterizes the opposing Christian tradition as Replacement Theology or Supersessionism. Hagee and the "Christian" Zionists go along with this rabbinical teaching out of an apparent phobia that disagreement would expose them to charges of "historical Christian anti-Semitism."

16 posted on 11/07/2010 12:00:02 PM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: mas cerveza por favor
I've read and been told that the views expressed in your second paragraph were thought to correct - at one time. But during my lifetime of over six decades, I've never heard this opinion expressed in any Protestant church I've attended: Southern Baptist, Episcopal, Presbyterian, Methodist, Reformed, or Evangelical. In fact, my church teaches that God loves the Jews and that the reestablishment of Israel is in fulfillment of Biblical prophecy.
I believe this teaching because I know the character of those of preach and teach it. I know these men would sooner die that teach anything that cannot be substantiated by the Bible. None are Jews or have any reason to support Israel, except the conviction of truth. And I've read the passages you cite. I come to an opinion directly opposed to yours. I accept that if you believe what you write, but I'm certain you have interpreted Scripture incorrectly.
17 posted on 11/07/2010 12:03:15 PM PST by quadrant (1o)
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To: mas cerveza por favor
>> Re-read the prophesy at the top of this thread and the worldly interpretation which directly contradicts Romans 11,<<

Pardon me if I am misreading you comment here, I have not paid attention to your view up till now, but I sense you don’t believe that Israel (Jews) are still Gods chosen people and will once again be dealt with on an individual (as a nation) basis during the Tribulation period.

Romans 11 specifically deals with that and explicitly says that the Jews, ie Israel, will be again dealt with as it says “until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.” Once God determines that the end of the time for the Gentiles has come He will again, for a period of seven years, deal with the Jews as a nation.

18 posted on 11/07/2010 12:16:33 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: quadrant

Is there any shred of clear Scriptural evidence or Christian tradition to support the modern conceit that non-believing Jews inherit the Abrahamic blessings.


19 posted on 11/07/2010 12:20:36 PM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: RJR_fan; pastorbillrandles; xzins; blue-duncan; quadrant
Unless you are suggesting that a Christ-denying political entity trumps the Son of God Himself ...

FWIW your straw man arguments are irrelevant.

Like it or not the promises made to "Israel" by God were eternal and the promises are attached to the land known as Israel and the descendants of Jacob.

IMHO, there is obviously a Biblical significance to the fact that there is today a place on the land promised to the descendants of Jacob a country called "Israel". I don't know exactly what that significance is, but my biblical studies over the years seems to suggest that it has something to do with Biblical prophecy and the events which will unfold immediately prior to the return of Christ.

If you want to ridicule that position and those who believe it, then that is your prerogative. I just think that if you are going to do so, you ought to use logical arguments rather than logical fallacies.

Carry on.

20 posted on 11/07/2010 12:28:05 PM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: RJR_fan
I am not excited over the prospects for Israel; in fact, I'm rather pessimistic about them. Not from the Arabs/Muslims, who are the least important threat to Israel. The IDF is fully capable of defending Israel.
My fear for Israel comes from political developments I see in this country. Far too many Americans have been captured by the propaganda that the Palestinians (and Muslims) are a poor persecuted minority. And that responsibility for helping them rests with the West. I fear that one day this corrosive nonsense will lead to a temporization in US support for Israel. And this temporization will lead the US to vacillate at a critical moment in Israel's history.
If the Palestinians are going to improve their condition, the responsibility rests with them. Clinging to the notion that the Jews can be driven into the sea has brought Muslims nothing but misery. Yet they hold to this nonsense with the tenacity of an inmate in a mental institution who is convinced that he is Napoleon.
As to the opinion of the Jews toward Jesus. I regret it, it saddens me, but I do not feel responsible for it, nor can I allow it to change my opinion about Israel.
21 posted on 11/07/2010 12:29:21 PM PST by quadrant (1o)
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To: mas cerveza por favor
>>Hagee and the "Christian" Zionists go along with this rabbinical teaching out of an apparent phobia that disagreement would expose them to charges of "historical Christian anti-Semitism."<<

I haven’t heard that about Haggee but I would sincerely doubt it. Judaism does teach that the promises are not for the Gentiles but Haggee and others do not agree with that and say so. They understand the that the Jews don’t understand but certainly don’t capitulate to avoid being viewed as anti Semite.

22 posted on 11/07/2010 12:31:31 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: RJR_fan
Willingly, joyfully, hopefully, I shall join you in such prayers.
However, Islam is a far more formidable doctrine than was Communism. People may have believed in Communism with a fervor similar to that of religious devotion, but Muslims believe with religious devotion.
Iran offers great prospects for evangelism. As in other lands, Islam was imposed on Persia by military force, but unlike Mesopotamia and other areas of the Middle East, Iran retained its language and culture. I hope and pray that Iranians will see that Islam is a religion that leads to death.
23 posted on 11/07/2010 12:40:09 PM PST by quadrant (1o)
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To: CynicalBear
I sense you don’t believe that Israel (Jews) are still Gods chosen people and will once again be dealt with on an individual (as a nation) basis during the Tribulation period. Romans 11 specifically deals with that and explicitly says that the Jews, ie Israel, will be again dealt with as it says “until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.” Once God determines that the end of the time for the Gentiles has come He will again, for a period of seven years, deal with the Jews as a nation.

Those Jews who follow Christ are still Gods chosen people. Those who once again become faithful, like the Old Testament remnant, will rejoin Gods chosen people. Those who reject Christ are "broken off" from the tree. This is the clear teaching of Romans 11. Is it not?

How could Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and all Protestant denominations prior to John Darby got this simple teaching wrong?

"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people" (1Peter 2:9)

24 posted on 11/07/2010 12:41:43 PM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: CynicalBear
Judaism does teach that the promises are not for the Gentiles but Haggee and others do not agree with that and say so.

John Hagee denied that Jesus came as Messiah to the Jews in his book, In Defense of Israel. I was amazed when I first heard Hagee's denial on youtube. I could not find that same video but this link shows the same footage along with part of The Passion of the Christ movie. The first part of the clip has Hagee, in his own words, denying the Messiahship of Christ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aYYnNE69H0

25 posted on 11/07/2010 1:03:28 PM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: mas cerveza por favor
>> Those who reject Christ are "broken off" from the tree. This is the clear teaching of Romans 11. Is it not?<<

Actually not totally true as I understand what you’re meaning. The Jews who today reject Jesus will again be given that chance during the Tribulation period. According to prophecy there will be 144,000 who are saved “till the end”.

Romans 11: 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.[See here that they are now blind to the truth “until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.” After the Rapture of the Gentile Church (and of course the Jews who have accepted Jesus)]

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:[This will happen during the Tribulation.

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

26 posted on 11/07/2010 1:10:51 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: mas cerveza por favor
<>

LOL You had me going for a few minutes on that one. Hearing that message had me doubting myself and what I have heard him say. Here is what he said about that.

“I chose to use challenging language that I hoped would confront the body of Christ to consider events from the Jewish and historical perspective and therefore develop greater empathy for our Jewish friends.

“Over the centuries, Christians have been quick to condemn the Jews for failing to recognize Jesus as Messiah. This approach led to replacement theology and the viewpoint of some that God has rejected and broken covenant with the Jewish people. These ideas, in turn, opened the door to a vicious Christian anti-Semitism that led to the Crusades, the Inquisition and countless pogroms.

Jesus came the first time as the suffering Messiah, as exemplified by His persecution, rejection and crucifixion. Jesus will come back as the reigning Messiah, who will rule the world from His throne in Jerusalem as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

The primary change will involve how I use the word “Messiah.” In the expanded version, I will clarify the clear distinction between the “Suffering Messiah,” the Lamb of God and the “Reigning Messiah,” the Lion of the Tribe of Judah!

I also hope that we can return our focus to what I had anticipated to highlight all along, the fact that we Christians must shift from condemning the Jews for what they missed to thanking them for what they gave.” John Hagee

27 posted on 11/07/2010 1:30:05 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear
LOL You had me going for a few minutes on that one.

So Hagee could not maintain his position and went back to unsay what he had previously said without admitting his mistakes.

“I chose to use challenging language that I hoped would confront the body of Christ to consider events from the Jewish and historical perspective and therefore develop greater empathy for our Jewish friends.

Even in his "clarification," Hagee admits that he presented the events of Jesus' Messiahship sympathetically from the Jewish perspective, which is directly opposed to the Christian perspective.

“Over the centuries, Christians have been quick to condemn the Jews for failing to recognize Jesus as Messiah.

Hagee implies that there is something wrong about the Christian condemnation of Jews for failing to recognize Jesus as Messiah. Clearly Hagee sympathizes with rabbinical unbelief against the St. Peter's Pentecostal message in Acts 2.

These ideas, in turn, opened the door to a vicious Christian anti-Semitism that led to the Crusades, the Inquisition and countless pogroms.

Ahh... the old scare tactic of accusing "anti-Semitism" against anyone who accepts the orthodox tenets of Christianity on the condemnation of unbelievers. Thank you for confirming everything in my previous posts to illustrate the dangers of "Christian" Zionism.

28 posted on 11/07/2010 2:11:13 PM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: mas cerveza por favor
>>Hagee implies that there is something wrong about the Christian condemnation of Jews for failing to recognize Jesus as Messiah. Clearly Hagee sympathizes with rabbinical unbelief against the St. Peter's Pentecostal message in Acts 2.<<

Christian condemnation of Jews? Condemnation of Jews? And then you use Acts 2 to somehow justify condemning Jews? You have got to be kidding me. If you use that logic you would condemn God himself for sending Jesus to die. The one line in Acts 2 simply points out that they denied Christ but if you read the rest of that chapter they were also all saved. You need to seriously re-examine your understanding of Scripture. Every person who does not take Jesus to be there Savior is denying Christ. To single out Jews, who are still the chosen people of God, is ludicrous.

Obviously you have fallen for the ADL position that Hagee supports their claim when anyone with an open mind understands the position Hagee holds. I’m not a total supporter of Hagee (I just don’t know enough of what he says.) but on this issue he certainly has it right. The Jews did in fact reject Jesus but it is very, very dangerous to “come against my people Israel” and if you don’t understand that part I would suggest you do some serious study.

>>Thank you for confirming everything in my previous posts to illustrate the dangers of "Christian" Zionism.<< It’s becoming more obvious to me that you are either Preterist or certainly lean in that direction. If that is your point of view I would suggest you pray about it and look at alternative views.

29 posted on 11/07/2010 3:13:19 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: mas cerveza por favor
Those Jews who follow Christ are still Gods chosen people. Those who once again become faithful, like the Old Testament remnant, will rejoin Gods chosen people. Those who reject Christ are "broken off" from the tree. This is the clear teaching of Romans 11. Is it not?

Nope...God's chosen people is never a reference to the 'church'...It is always a reference to Israel...

The times of the Gentiles...What is the times of the Gentiles???

God turned away from Israel, the Jews...Salvation is of the Jews...To provoke jealousy, God offered salvation to the Gentiles...That is us...It is the 'times of the Gentiles'...The Jewish nation has been cut off from the trunk of the tree...

When God is done with the Gentiles, there will be no more adoption into the body of Jesus Christ...That's when the times of the Gentiles will have been fulfilled...

Does the scripture say that Israel will at some point be grafted back into the branches of the tree??? I don't believe it does...

If individual Jews stop their unbelief, they will individually be grafted back into the tree...And in that tree are no Jews nor Gentiles...

But when the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled, the tree is done growing...No one gets back into the tree after that...

The tree then, is harvested...At that point, we are headed home...Not to Israel in the Middle East...We have no interest in a piece of dirt...Our home is in heavenly places...

At THAT point, God turns His attention back to his chosen people, Israel...At that point, God says Israel will accept Him as their Messiah and all of Israel shall be saved...At that point, the promises given to Israel will be realized, including the land promises...

I don't know Darby or Schofield...Haven't read their stuff...But I do read the bible and I have found these things in the scripture and without any preconceived ideas of what my religion tells me to believe, I am free to believe what God says in the scriptures...

30 posted on 11/07/2010 4:49:52 PM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: CynicalBear
Every person who does not take Jesus to be there Savior is denying Christ.

Obviously. We do agree with the teaching that such unbelievers are under condemnation. Do we not?

To single out Jews, who are still the chosen people of God, is ludicrous.

Believing Jews are still the chosen people of God. You propose singling out unbelieving Jews to be exempt from the general status that applies unbelievers. That is ludicrous.

The Jews did in fact reject Jesus but it is very, very dangerous to “come against my people Israel”

You are mysterious and vague. What do you mean “come against my people Israel?” Are you saying it is wrong to accept the Scriptural and traditional Christian teaching on the disinheritance of unbelievers?

It’s becoming more obvious to me that you are either Preterist or certainly lean in that direction.

I am Catholic. That is all.

31 posted on 11/07/2010 5:22:55 PM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: CynicalBear

2 Chronicles 2:4
“Behold, I build an house to the name of the LORD my God, to dedicate it to him, and to burn before him sweet incense, and for the continual shewbread, and for the burnt offerings morning and evening, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts of the LORD our God. This is an ordinance forever to Israel.”

If the church is the true Israel, how does ‘forever’ apply?


32 posted on 11/07/2010 5:29:17 PM PST by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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Comment #33 Removed by Moderator

To: Iscool
But when the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled, the tree is done growing...No one gets back into the tree after that... The tree then, is harvested...At that point, we are headed home...Not to Israel in the Middle East...We have no interest in a piece of dirt...Our home is in heavenly places... At THAT point, God turns His attention back to his chosen people, Israel...At that point, God says Israel will accept Him as their Messiah and all of Israel shall be saved...At that point, the promises given to Israel will be realized, including the land promises...

That is quite a narrative. Here is what the text from Romans 11 actually says:

"17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

The Deliverer out of Sion has already come. Correct? In the future, "he will come again to judge the living and the dead." He has been and still is turning away ungodliness from Jacob and will continue to do so until the End. The text of Revelations is even less clearly related to your narrative.

Such a dispensationalist narrative was proposed for the very first time during the Nineteenth Century by the Irish preacher, John Darby. Later, the Darbyist narrative was widely popularized by the massively promoted Scofield Reference Bible. Look up Scofield Reference Bible on the Internet. You will be amazed. There is no historical record of dispensationalism existing before the Nineteenth Century.

34 posted on 11/07/2010 6:28:18 PM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: papabrody

Any religious group that denies the unique divinity of Jesus Christ is a cult. Such groups include the Moonies (with a second incarnation), the JWs (recycled Arians), Mormons (we can all be gods, and service a heavenly harem on our equivalent of Kolob), and rabbinic Judaism (the pre-existent son of God did not come in the flesh).

Biblical Judaism is Christianity.


35 posted on 11/07/2010 6:48:24 PM PST by RJR_fan (Christians need to reclaim and excel in the genre of science fiction.)
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To: mas cerveza por favor
The Deliverer out of Sion has already come. Correct?

Nope...Jesus came the first time but He did not deliver anyone from anything...When He comes again, He will deliver Israel...

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

He has been and still is turning away ungodliness from Jacob and will continue to do so until the End.

Nope...

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

This prophecy is about Jews, not Christians and it is future, not present...They is not you, and you is not them...

Such a dispensationalist narrative was proposed for the very first time during the Nineteenth Century by the Irish preacher, John Darby.

Clearly, that's not accurate...That dispensationalist narrative was first given by the Apostle Paul...

The fact that Rome did not and still does not acknowledge the fact is of no consequence...Well actually, it is...And it's very bad consequence...

36 posted on 11/07/2010 7:27:30 PM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: CynicalBear
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:[This will happen during the Tribulation.

This happened when Christ came as the Messiah. St. Paul quotes from Isaiah prophesies on the coming of Christ:

"2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. 3 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness. [...]

20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. 21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever." (Isaiah 59)

Christ is that Redeemer and Deliverer. He has already come. He is turning away the ungodliness from Jacob and will continue to do so.

37 posted on 11/07/2010 7:52:09 PM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: jjotto
>>If the church is the true Israel, how does ‘forever’ apply?<<

The Gentile Church is the new Israel? Is that what you are saying? If so, that is totally wrong.

38 posted on 11/07/2010 7:54:08 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: RJR_fan
"Biblical Judaism is Christianity."

Christianity is a heretical form of Judaism, a retrofitted theology that tries to explain the failure of Jesus to fulfill the requirements of Jewish Messiah. The Jewish Messiah is a mortal man, not a demi-god...there's no "virgin births" "immaculate conceptions" "original sins" in the Tanakh...learn a little bit about Judaism before you spout off...magritte
39 posted on 11/07/2010 8:03:44 PM PST by magritte ("There are moments, Jeeves, when one asks oneself "Do trousers matter?")
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To: Iscool; CynicalBear
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

This prophecy is about Jews, not Christians and it is future, not present...They is not you, and you is not them...

See my last post to CynicalBear above. Rom 11:27 is Isaiah 59:23. The passages was first said about Jews in the future, YES, long before the coming of Christ. Paul is was simple quoting a well-known OT passage.

That dispensationalist narrative was first given by the Apostle Paul...

I understand that is your opinion but nobody before Darby ever recognized the dispensationalist narrative supposedly given by Paul. Correct?

40 posted on 11/07/2010 8:05:47 PM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: RJR_fan; Jewbacca; jjotto; blasater1960; magritte; Zionist Conspirator
Any religious group that denies the unique divinity of Jesus Christ is a cult.

Such groups include the Moonies (with a second incarnation), the JWs (recycled Arians), Mormons (we can all be gods, and service a heavenly harem on our equivalent of Kolob), and rabbinic Judaism (the pre-existent son of God did not come in the flesh).

Hey thanks RJR! Jews are a CULT! You grouped us with Moonies! Going to go buy a tambourine tomorrow and head to the airport to raise some cash.........thanks for your time and expertise on this subject.

41 posted on 11/07/2010 9:01:49 PM PST by papabrody (Proud member of the International Jewish Conspiracy)
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To: mas cerveza por favor
See my last post to CynicalBear above. Rom 11:27 is Isaiah 59:23. The passages was first said about Jews in the future, YES, long before the coming of Christ. Paul is was simple quoting a well-known OT passage.

Nope...Paul was explaining to the Gentiles how God turned to the Gentiles in the Age of Grace...Paul was pointing out how that prophecy in Isaiah was currently being fulfilled; that Israel indeed has been blinded and God will deal with them later...

I understand that is your opinion but nobody before Darby ever recognized the dispensationalist narrative supposedly given by Paul. Correct?

I imagine many, many people recognized it before Darby after getting out of the bondage of your religion and it's private interpretation of the scriptures...

Non Catholic Christianity for 1700 years hasn't accepted your religion as the one true religion so it doesn't bother me at all that your religion still rejects Israel as God's chosen people...

42 posted on 11/07/2010 9:19:54 PM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: magritte
Christianity is a heretical form of Judaism ...

That's strange. Jesus Christ lives today, and you can easily talk to people who have been transformed by our Lord's vibrant, exuberant, and redemptive personality. All of "life, the universe, and everything" can be understood and appreciated when viewed through the lens of this one man's biography. The redeemed of the Lord experience great gladness in knowing that their sins are atoned for, that new birth / new life is possible, that God is present among us today, that the Eternal has intruded into time through Jesus of Nazareth, and continues to do so into our lives through that same Person. Our God is good, He has made Himself known, and life is deeply significant because of Jesus.

Jewish folks do a lot of overcompensating, since the most important event in all of recorded history happened in their back yard, on their watch -- and most of them missed it. Were asleep at the switch. To their eternal loss.

But they don't need to remain outside the party, in the cold with their noses pressed against the plate glass window. They got the first invitation, the first Christians were Jewish, and the invitation is still good. The founding pastor of my church is a Jewish man who got the point, and got with the program.

Come on in, the water's fine! We all (well, almost all of us) wish you well, for this life and for eternity.

43 posted on 11/07/2010 11:36:09 PM PST by RJR_fan (Christians need to reclaim and excel in the genre of science fiction.)
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To: CynicalBear

So, do you believe today’s Jews are obligated to bring “burnt offerings” today and “forever”?


44 posted on 11/08/2010 5:53:38 AM PST by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: magritte

Christianity is only heretical if practiced by a Jew. Otherwise it is just avodah zarah, worship not commanded by God.


45 posted on 11/08/2010 6:00:35 AM PST by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: jjotto
No they are not at this point. God’s dealing solely with the Jews was suspended after the death and resurrection of Jesus. The “time of the Gentiles” will end and at that point (the time of the Tribulation) the Jews or Nation of Israel will once again return to the Temple offerings etc having rebuilt the Temple. They are currently building and fabricating all of the Temple furnishings etc.

They will finally realize that Jesus was indeed the promised Messiah during the Tribulation period. That is not to say that even today there are Jews who come to the truth and become what are referred to as Messianic Jews. Those who have been “born again” having accepted Jesus as the Messiah. The Nation as a whole, however, have not and will revert and go through the last seven years of the 490 years promised them by God.

46 posted on 11/08/2010 6:35:47 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear

OK, that is a indirect way of saying ‘forever’ doesn’t mean ‘forever’ in Christian apologetics. Or perhaps dispensationalism is a forced view in order to have cake and eat it too.


47 posted on 11/08/2010 6:44:08 AM PST by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: jjotto

Thanks for that clarification....appreciated and will use it correctly next time...magritte


48 posted on 11/08/2010 7:12:43 AM PST by magritte ("There are moments, Jeeves, when one asks oneself "Do trousers matter?")
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To: jjotto
>> OK, that is a indirect way of saying ‘forever’ doesn’t mean ‘forever’ in Christian apologetics. Or perhaps dispensationalism is a forced view in order to have cake and eat it too.<<

No, it isn’t. The land still belongs to the Jews. Because of disobedience, God allowed squatters to force the Jews off of the land and to be dispersed “among the nations” until the “the age of the Gentiles be fulfilled”.

As per prophecy, the Jews once again repossessed the land in 1948. The age of the Gentiles will end at which time God will deal solely with the nation of Israel for a period of seven years. Woe unto any nation that comes against the nation of Israel. Read Ezekiel 38-39 and you will see what happens to them.

49 posted on 11/08/2010 7:17:29 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: papabrody

I really don’t think FreeRepublic is the place for Christian-Jewish dialog of this sort.

Orthodox Jewish people and fundamentalist Christians have a lot in common socially, politically, and even in love of G-d, but there are intractable theological differences, and it serves no reason to bring it up.

Yes, Christians think Jewish people are going to Hell. That’s fine, and most Orthodox Jewish people appreciate the concern for their eternal well being.

On the topic, I think the “cult” slur is novel, and the result of inexact typing, so I don’t take that as an insult.

Now, Reform folks DO think Orthodox and Lubavitchers, in particular, are a cult. If this was coming from them, I accept what they say as an intended insult.


50 posted on 11/08/2010 7:46:20 AM PST by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem.)
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