Skip to comments.Mary on tree of life...on drawing of men
Posted on 11/09/2010 1:41:51 PM PST by bibletruth
The Catholics claim that following:
Mary is the tree of life to those who grasp her (Proverbs 3:18)
No one can go to God without Mary drawing him
Proverbs 3:13 - 18 demonstrate that the word "she" is a reference to "Wisdom", e.g., Christ, not Mary.
Proverbs 3:13ff Happy is the man that findesth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding. For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise fo silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold. SHE is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her [Wisdom]. Length of days is in her right hand [Only Christ and God have length of days]; and in her left hand riches and honour [Only Christ possesses all riches and honour]. SHE [Wisdom] is the tree of life to them that lay hold upon her...The LORD by Wisdom hath founded the earth...
Proverbs 3:13 - 18 is ONLY talking about Wisdom - SHE - the "she" of Proverbs 3:18 is Wisdom, who is the LORD [Christ] before being born of the virgin Mary. By the Bible Scriptures, Mary is definitely NOT the SHE [Wisdom] tree of life. The context of Proverbs CLEARLY points out the SHE is the LORD! Read the Bible Carefully to understand!
The Catholics claim that "God loved Mary so much that He gave her the keys to His heart. 'No one can go to God without Mary drawing him."
John 6:44 No man can come to me [Jesus Christ], except the Father [GOD] that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, I [Christ Jesus] will draw all men unto myself.
John 6:44 & 12:32 The Bible CLEARLY proves that Christ Jesus will draw all men unto myself, not Mary. Read the Bible Carefully to understand!
If you fail to read the Bible carefully, then your spiritual eyes have failed to see truth of Christ and "THE FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST" for salvation that only Christ provides, by HIS drawing of men and women. Christ plus works of the Law is NOT THE FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST. Be wary, there IS another religion, with another of a different kind of Jesus and another of a different kind of Paul's Gospel, where demon gospels are full of signs and wonders and lying miracles.
well said, yep...
I think the above shows that even a casual reading of the bible is enough to seriously damage many positions held by the Catholic church.
The Catholics will then point to ‘tradition,’ usually prefaced with the word ‘holy,’ as being of equal footing with the scripture itself.
Now, consider this, Jesus said that no house which is divided against itself can stand [Mark 3:25]; and He also claimed to be the word made flesh [John 1; John 6:56].
So then, we can assume that a “Holy Tradition” cannot, in fact, contradict the word itself; yet we see that this claimed “holy tradition” counters the plain-meaning reading of the actual scripture very, very frequently. In Mark 7 Jesus ends his criticisms of the Religious Elite in verse 13 where He says:
“Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”
The Catholics claim that following:Cite for the Catholic claim, please.
Mary is the tree of life to those who grasp her (Proverbs 3:18)
No one can go to God without Mary drawing him
Your "Catholics" are a room full of strawmen.
My guess is that this interpretation comes from an era where fervent piety was given emphasis over solid Biblical exegesis and scholarship - and even then the understanding is a qualified one. Fortunately, such interpretations, while pious (and useful when understood in the context in which they were written - which is here absent) are not interpretations to which Catholics are bound.
Precisely and specifically, what limitations does this put on the thread?
The Catholics claim that "Mary is the tree of life to those who grasp her, and he is happy who hold her fast." --Prov. 3:18
This is the passage to which I was referring when I said that your "Catholics" are a room full of strawmen.
Obviously, a literal reading of the passage, in its entirety and in its context, makes it clear that the reference is to Wisdom.
Sure ... but what is a "Bible Caucus"?
I argue that, since the New Testament is a Catholic/Orthodox Document and the Old Testament is a Jewish Document, that the only permitted members of the "Bible Caucus" are Catholics, Orthodox, and Jews.
These protestants need to butt out.
I am a reasonably well educated Catholic who has been reading Catholic literature, listening to Catholic speakers and attending Catholic Mass for almost 60 years. I have never heard of these alleged doctrines you referenced.
Source, link, please?
The “holy tradition” thing was based off of a ‘lively’ thread here on FR about the validity of “sola scriptura;” I think you were even there...
The “Tradition” debate came up also in my time as the Chaplain’s Assistant to a Catholic Chaplain.
So it’s ‘link-less’ personal experience.
Can anybody actually be that dumb?
When I left the Church my Mom never gave up on me. Finally, after 20 yrs, I had been a Luthern and Methodist I found them less then what I was looking for. I asked my Mom about why she would feel the need to pray throught Mary instead of directly to Jesus as if he didn’t have the time. I asked her for a Biblical reference to this abililty and she finally gave me one that brought me back to the Church. Jesus and his Family were at a wedding at the father of the Bride ran out of wine and went to the Mother of Jesus to ask for a miracle. Jesus made it clear, it was not His time, He didn’t want to do it. He finally relented to his Mom and performed His first miracle. I had no retort. She, my Mother, was correct. I went back to the Church after that. My two cents
At our Lords first miracle
BTW, the wedding at Cana story also includes the Best Advice Ever Given by one Human Person to Another:
"Do whatever He tells you."
Words to live by ... literally and eternally.
“The Catholics claim that following:”
Whoopsie. You might want to read the mod’s criteria for caucus designation...again...
I never said anything about this particular claim; but about the claim that _tradition_ is of equal import to either Jesus or the Bible.
I believe the elevation of tradition, even to the position of ‘equal’ [to the scriptures] is in error; not because a particular tradition is, but because tradition BY ITS NATURE is fairly mutable, like a language in a particular point in time. (The word ‘gay,’ in usage even 30 years ago meant something far different than the ‘gay’ of today.) Traditions, of the religious sort, derive their value from the understanding [quite often embedded in symbolism; like the Passover] that is within however that tradition loses all significance when it becomes mere ‘habit’ [”why do we eat bitter herbs on this day?” -> “It’s just tradition!”*].
*The correct/traditional answer is “They are to remind us of the bitter and cruel way the Pharaoh treated the Jewish people when they were slaves in Egypt.”
I am part of my parish RCIA team and I often run into people who attribute to hearsay, random speculations, and drivel, the status of Catholic dogma. Both Catholics and non-Catholics.
So, no personal insult to you intended, I'm not surprised anymore when people take some wacky stuff as a doctrine without knowing a dang thing about it.
Have a blessed day.
>I am part of my parish RCIA team and I often run into people who attribute to hearsay, random speculations, and drivel, the status of Catholic dogma. Both Catholics and non-Catholics.
>So, no personal insult to you intended, I’m not surprised anymore when people take some wacky stuff as a doctrine without knowing a dang thing about it.
None taken. My point was more about ‘tradition’ [it really doesn’t matter WHOSE] than about any actual dogma/hearsay/doctrine.
What "the Catholics" claim is irrelevant. Catholic doctrine is what the Catholic Church teaches through the Popes and the bishops in union with him, not what "the Catholics claim".
Please provide citations where the Catholic Church authoritatively teaches either of the two things you mention.
Having a *really dull day*? Maybe you should consider taking up a useful hobby. Winston Churchill enjoyed painting. I’m fond of counted cross-stitch, when circumstances permit. Crossword puzzles help build your vocabulary.
Perhaps you could study Old Norse and read the Sagas in the original ...
We can discuss cabbages!
*seriously, mine won’t head.
Oh, dear. I’ve grown cauliflower and brocolli, with limited success, but never cabbage. Are they just all leaf, like romaine lettuce?
This was taught by Pope Pius XII. "While Peter has the keys of heaven, Mary has the keys to God's heart.." - Pope Pius XII, allocution given on April 21, 1940. Which, by the way, the Catholic Church guarantees, when Mary turns the key, the lock will open: "We could not find a more powerful protectress or one more irresistible before God. She is for us the best of mother, our safest confidante and in fact the very motive our our hope, she obtains all she asks for and her prayer is always heard."- Exultavit Cor Nostrum. Pope Pius IX, Exultavit Cor Nostrum.
Exultavit Cor Nostrum.
“In such a great crisis, everyone can see that all our hopes must be placed in God alone. We must offer Him continual and fervent prayers, so that He may pour out the riches of His mercy on all peoples. We must implore Him to illumine all minds with the light of His heavenly grace, to bring back the erring to the path of justice, to turn back to Himself the rebellious wills of His enemies, to bestow on all a love and fear of His holy name, and to give them the spirit of always thinking and doing whatever is right, whatever is true, whatever is modest, whatever is just, whatever is holy. The Lord is sweet, mild, merciful, and rich for all who call on Him. He receives the prayers of the humble and shows His power in pardon and mercy. Let us approach, venerable brothers, with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find favor in His timely aid. Everyone who asks receives, everyone who seeks finds, and everyone who knocks enters.
But first let us give perpetual thanks to the Lord of mercies and let us praise His holy name since He deigns to work the wonders of His mercy throughout the Catholic world. Therefore with one mind and animated with the same sincerity of faith, strength of hope, and ardor of love, let us humbly and strenuously beseech God to deliver His holy Church from all calamities, to expand and exalt it more and more every day among all nations and everywhere on earth, to purge the world of all errors, to lead all men in mercy to the recognition of truth and the way of salvation, to propitiously avert the scourge of His anger which we deserve for our sins, to rule the sea and wind and bring tranquility, to grant peace, to save His people and bless His inheritance and bring it to heaven. That God may more easily incline His ear to our prayers and grant our desires, let us raise our eyes and minds to the most holy Mother of God, whose patronage with God is more prompt and efficacious than any other, for she is our most loving Mother and our greatest source of confidence. Then too let us seek the intercession of the Prince of the Apostles, to whom Christ Himself gave the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven and whom He made the rock of His Church against which the gates of hell can never prevail. Let us also seek the intercession of his Co-apostle Paul, and the particular patrons of each city and region, and all the heavenly company, that by them our gracious Lord may pour out the rich gifts of His goodness.”
paragraph 3 of 5.
NEVER APOLOGIZE FOR THE BLESSED MOTHER - MOTHER ANGELICA
I should hope Mary has the keys to God’ heart, she carried Him beneath hers.
The Communion of the Saints is real and they live in bliss with our God as we all hope to one day.
“Are they just all leaf, like romaine lettuce?”
They have little itty bitty tiny heads surrounded by healthy big leaves.
I think perhaps it was too warm when I planted them and they are just beginning to mature with this cold weather.
I read that nitrogen is vital for heading but since this is the first time I’ve grown them, I don’t know.
The baby bok choy looks great though.
They won’t have one. Facts just get in the way.
btw, I’m glad my father passed on long ago. I’m a lousy German. I can’t make saurkraut.
For instance, as I am sure you are already aware, St.Paul wrote,
"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us." (2 Thessalonians 2:15)
Here he is evidently talking about the oral teaching of the Apostles and Evangelists--- that is, the leaders of the Church--- and not just any speculative or gassy notions that happened to be "blowin' in the wind."
So with one tradition and another, it really does matter "whose." If it was the teaching of the Apostles and their co-workers (approved men like Titus, Timothy, etc.) it was quite different than the teaching of other "freelancers" who were not part of the Apostolic line:
"Keep away from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us." (2 Thessalonians 3:8)
You see what I mean. We always have to distinguish one from the other.
Have a good evening.
You could cut the leaves off, shred them, and make Salvadoran Slaw. One of the ladies at my church makes some that is so good you can put it on anything. Ran out of cheese? Ham sandwich with Salvadoran slaw. Leftover rice from the takeout Chinese? White rice with Salvadoran slaw. Mmmmmm.
Bottom line for all those trusting in any religion, is when you die you will bust hell wide open. You can pray to Mary, Matthew, Mark, John or Jesus all day long, every day; and it won’t save you, nor will God hear you. Your prayers go from your mouth to your own itching ears and no further.
Paul said about himself, 2 Timothy 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
You don’t have to go any where, do anything, say anything, or pray anything; only need to believe the Gospel of your salvation as preached above by the Apostle Paul.
The problem with all those trapped in religion is they will believe anything and everything...but they cannot tell you the gospel; even when it is pointed out to them; They will rail against it...watch...
Provocation: As Paul said of the Jews; Romans 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
Man, that Bok choy is good.
Exactly my point ... to provoke these Catholics to turn from their praying to dead saints which cannot save. Christ alone and His FINISHED WORK ON THE CROSS is the only grace way to be saved. Catholics...believe in Christ in 1 Corinthians 15:3 for free grace salvation. Free yourself from the bondage of being trapped inside a religious system that even Christ condemned from Israel’s vain religious system in the Gospels. Follow the Apostle Paul; who was made a minister to us gentiles; Peter effectually was made a minister to the circumcision, not Paul.
AMEN, PoloSec. “Religious” people will believe anything and everything EXCEPT the Gospel. It seems to be the only thing that is not trusted. Visions, miracles, relics, traditions, ceremonies, are wholeheartedly accepted and celebrated. And the FREE GIFT OF GOD remains unclaimed.
I am rolling on the Floor. Thats Funny! Look we have some very mixed up Anti- types with old fashion stereotypes. Famous nonsense. Also the simplistic reading One verse rules over the balance of scripture. I have taken non-catholics to church who could not believe the bible readings. And how Christ centered the Mass is spoken. They do not know that the rosary is a private devotion not spoken in the actually mass. And it goes on and on. Lions and tigers and bears and Catholics Oh my!
Try to put yourself in the poster’s mind. What is going on in his life so that *SHAZAM!* the most important thing he can think of is posting a garbled one-line unsourced anti-Catholic vanity? Do some laundry already ... watch the golf match ... puzzle about your unfortunate gardening outcomes ... scrub the bathtub.
And yes, many people are extremely ignorant of what actually goes on in the Catholic Church. It annoys me - although I shouldn’t let it - that they’re always saying Catholics don’t read the Bible, because I read the Bible endlessly. I was working on Sunday School lessons while some of my sons were swimming this afternoon, and I went out the van for the extra Bible I keep there so I could put down correct citations to use in my class (first grade).
The caucus label was removed because the article compares beliefs.
“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” By G. K. Chesterton
A great man, Mr. Chesterton was.
Actually bibletut has quoted himself, not The Church. Where exactly is the quotation from vatican.va or the CCC?
Actually I guess that was meant to be a bibletruth caucus, meaning only the members of bibletut’s group (sect or cult or whatever), so the number of members in that caucus = 1
The key point is that His mother didn’t, couldn’t order Him, but His love for her was so much that He listened to her.
Actually, baby Tut just made a mis-spelling, this must have been meant to be a bibletruth caucus, meaning only the members of tuts group (sect or cult or whatever), so the number of members in that caucus = 1 could attend this and talk to themselves (which would be a monologue)
Not all Catholics view Mary like this, but a lot do. I grew up in the Roman Catholic church and was taught Mary was the mother of God, the co-redemptrix, the intercessor, the woman of Revelation who will save the world and the one who crushes the serpent’s head. I grew up worshipping Mary. We could not know Jesus Christ without going through Mary to put in a good word for us. I still know many people who believe these things, including family members.
“Ach! Deutschlander!” Americanized.
“But seriously, do you know any simple vegetarian recipes?”
Not a lot, but mostly during Lent. Lentils mainly.
Seriously, the meat is heavy duty. My mother wouldn’t consider a meal unless it had meat as the basis.
I still have a secret vice: schmaltz!
Mutter lived until age 93 even though her diet was comprised of the the politically incorrect lard, butter, meat, eggs, and cheese.
OK, veggie and near-veggie greens resipes. You asked for it!
|1 Bunch collard greens, sliced||1 TBS extra virgin olive oil|
|1/2 red onion, sliced||6 kalamata olives, sliced|
|1 tsp lemon juice||S+P, dash of cayenne|
|1 clove garlic, minced||1-1/2 TBS sunflower seeds|
|3 TBS pumpkin seeds||5 drops tamari soy sauce|
Swiss Chard, Bacon and Scallop Pasta
|2 c. (heaped) dry Pasta||1 onion, sliced|
|4 slices bacon||3 cloves garlic, minced|
|1 bunch Swiss chard, rinsed||12 oz big sea scallops|
|1 tsp soy sauce||3 Tbs lemon juice|
|(opt: 1 sm. tomato, seeded and diced)||1 Tbs olive oil|
|1 Tbs butter|
Chop chard stems to bitesize, boil in slated water for 3 min, rinse in cold. Slice leaves. Cook the bacon until crisp. In bacon grease, sauté onions, garlic until soft. Add the tomato and cook until it begins to break down, 2 minutes. Add all chard, chopped, salt and pepper. Sauté until chard wilts.
Season the scallops with salt and pepper. In LARGE skillet, heat the oil until just smoking. Add the scallops and cook in one layer over high heat for 30 seconds. Reduce the heat to moderate and cook until golden on the bottom, 3 minutes. Turn the scallops and add the butter. Cook, spooning the butter on the scallops, until just white throughout, about 3 minutes. Add lemon juice and soy sauce, toss to combine flavors.
Add cooked pasta and greens. Mix, serve immediately.
I will. I have a recipe for Central American Slaw in “Healthy Latin Cooking,” but it’s not nearly as good as la hermana Andrea’s.
I like spinach, but I’ve had trouble taking to most other kinds of leafy greens. Maybe I’ve just been using the wrong recipes! We always have greens around, because the dragons eat them.