Posted on 11/09/2010 1:41:51 PM PST by bibletruth
The Catholics claim that following:
Mary is the tree of life to those who grasp her (Proverbs 3:18)
No one can go to God without Mary drawing him
Proverbs 3:13 - 18 demonstrate that the word "she" is a reference to "Wisdom", e.g., Christ, not Mary.
Proverbs 3:13ff Happy is the man that findesth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding. For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise fo silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold. SHE is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her [Wisdom]. Length of days is in her right hand [Only Christ and God have length of days]; and in her left hand riches and honour [Only Christ possesses all riches and honour]. SHE [Wisdom] is the tree of life to them that lay hold upon her...The LORD by Wisdom hath founded the earth...
Proverbs 3:13 - 18 is ONLY talking about Wisdom - SHE - the "she" of Proverbs 3:18 is Wisdom, who is the LORD [Christ] before being born of the virgin Mary. By the Bible Scriptures, Mary is definitely NOT the SHE [Wisdom] tree of life. The context of Proverbs CLEARLY points out the SHE is the LORD! Read the Bible Carefully to understand!
The Catholics claim that "God loved Mary so much that He gave her the keys to His heart. 'No one can go to God without Mary drawing him."
John 6:44 No man can come to me [Jesus Christ], except the Father [GOD] that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, I [Christ Jesus] will draw all men unto myself.
John 6:44 & 12:32 The Bible CLEARLY proves that Christ Jesus will draw all men unto myself, not Mary. Read the Bible Carefully to understand!
If you fail to read the Bible carefully, then your spiritual eyes have failed to see truth of Christ and "THE FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST" for salvation that only Christ provides, by HIS drawing of men and women. Christ plus works of the Law is NOT THE FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST. Be wary, there IS another religion, with another of a different kind of Jesus and another of a different kind of Paul's Gospel, where demon gospels are full of signs and wonders and lying miracles.
well said, yep...
I think the above shows that even a casual reading of the bible is enough to seriously damage many positions held by the Catholic church.
The Catholics will then point to ‘tradition,’ usually prefaced with the word ‘holy,’ as being of equal footing with the scripture itself.
Now, consider this, Jesus said that no house which is divided against itself can stand [Mark 3:25]; and He also claimed to be the word made flesh [John 1; John 6:56].
So then, we can assume that a “Holy Tradition” cannot, in fact, contradict the word itself; yet we see that this claimed “holy tradition” counters the plain-meaning reading of the actual scripture very, very frequently. In Mark 7 Jesus ends his criticisms of the Religious Elite in verse 13 where He says:
“Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”
The Catholics claim that following:Cite for the Catholic claim, please.Mary is the tree of life to those who grasp her (Proverbs 3:18)
No one can go to God without Mary drawing him
Your "Catholics" are a room full of strawmen.
My guess is that this interpretation comes from an era where fervent piety was given emphasis over solid Biblical exegesis and scholarship - and even then the understanding is a qualified one. Fortunately, such interpretations, while pious (and useful when understood in the context in which they were written - which is here absent) are not interpretations to which Catholics are bound.
Precisely and specifically, what limitations does this put on the thread?
The Catholics claim that "Mary is the tree of life to those who grasp her, and he is happy who hold her fast." --Prov. 3:18
This is the passage to which I was referring when I said that your "Catholics" are a room full of strawmen.
Obviously, a literal reading of the passage, in its entirety and in its context, makes it clear that the reference is to Wisdom.
Sure ... but what is a "Bible Caucus"?
I argue that, since the New Testament is a Catholic/Orthodox Document and the Old Testament is a Jewish Document, that the only permitted members of the "Bible Caucus" are Catholics, Orthodox, and Jews.
These protestants need to butt out.
I am a reasonably well educated Catholic who has been reading Catholic literature, listening to Catholic speakers and attending Catholic Mass for almost 60 years. I have never heard of these alleged doctrines you referenced.
Source, link, please?
The “holy tradition” thing was based off of a ‘lively’ thread here on FR about the validity of “sola scriptura;” I think you were even there...
The “Tradition” debate came up also in my time as the Chaplain’s Assistant to a Catholic Chaplain.
So it’s ‘link-less’ personal experience.
Really?
Can anybody actually be that dumb?
When I left the Church my Mom never gave up on me. Finally, after 20 yrs, I had been a Luthern and Methodist I found them less then what I was looking for. I asked my Mom about why she would feel the need to pray throught Mary instead of directly to Jesus as if he didn’t have the time. I asked her for a Biblical reference to this abililty and she finally gave me one that brought me back to the Church. Jesus and his Family were at a wedding at the father of the Bride ran out of wine and went to the Mother of Jesus to ask for a miracle. Jesus made it clear, it was not His time, He didn’t want to do it. He finally relented to his Mom and performed His first miracle. I had no retort. She, my Mother, was correct. I went back to the Church after that. My two cents
At our Lords first miracle
BTW, the wedding at Cana story also includes the Best Advice Ever Given by one Human Person to Another:
"Do whatever He tells you."
Words to live by ... literally and eternally.
“The Catholics claim that following:”
Whoopsie. You might want to read the mod’s criteria for caucus designation...again...
I never said anything about this particular claim; but about the claim that _tradition_ is of equal import to either Jesus or the Bible.
I believe the elevation of tradition, even to the position of ‘equal’ [to the scriptures] is in error; not because a particular tradition is, but because tradition BY ITS NATURE is fairly mutable, like a language in a particular point in time. (The word ‘gay,’ in usage even 30 years ago meant something far different than the ‘gay’ of today.) Traditions, of the religious sort, derive their value from the understanding [quite often embedded in symbolism; like the Passover] that is within however that tradition loses all significance when it becomes mere ‘habit’ [”why do we eat bitter herbs on this day?” -> “It’s just tradition!”*].
*The correct/traditional answer is “They are to remind us of the bitter and cruel way the Pharaoh treated the Jewish people when they were slaves in Egypt.”
I am part of my parish RCIA team and I often run into people who attribute to hearsay, random speculations, and drivel, the status of Catholic dogma. Both Catholics and non-Catholics.
So, no personal insult to you intended, I'm not surprised anymore when people take some wacky stuff as a doctrine without knowing a dang thing about it.
Have a blessed day.
>I am part of my parish RCIA team and I often run into people who attribute to hearsay, random speculations, and drivel, the status of Catholic dogma. Both Catholics and non-Catholics.
>
>So, no personal insult to you intended, I’m not surprised anymore when people take some wacky stuff as a doctrine without knowing a dang thing about it.
None taken. My point was more about ‘tradition’ [it really doesn’t matter WHOSE] than about any actual dogma/hearsay/doctrine.
What "the Catholics" claim is irrelevant. Catholic doctrine is what the Catholic Church teaches through the Popes and the bishops in union with him, not what "the Catholics claim".
Please provide citations where the Catholic Church authoritatively teaches either of the two things you mention.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.