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Love and Law -Mormon- (OPEN)
Gospel Library Magazines ^ | Nov 2009 | Dallin H. Oaks

Posted on 11/12/2010 3:30:08 PM PST by greyfoxx39

 

Dallin H. Oaks, “Love and Law,” Liahona, Nov 2009, 26–29

The love of God does not supersede His laws and His commandments, and the effect of God’s laws and commandments does not diminish the purpose and effect of His love.

I have been impressed to speak about God’s love and God’s commandments. My message is that God’s universal and perfect love is shown in all the blessings of His gospel plan, including the fact that His choicest blessings are reserved for those who obey His laws.1 I begin with four examples which illustrate some mortal confusion between love and law.
  • • A young adult in a cohabitation relationship tells grieving parents, “If you really loved me, you would accept me and my partner just like you accept your married children.”

  • • A youth reacts to parental commands or pressure by declaring, “If you really loved me, you wouldn’t force me.”

In these examples a person violating commandments asserts that parental love should override the commandments of divine law and the teachings of parents.

The next two examples show mortal confusion about the effect of God’s love.

  • • A person rejects the doctrine that a couple must be married for eternity to enjoy family relationships in the next life, declaring, “If God really loved us, I can’t believe He would separate husbands and wives in this way.”

  • • Another person says his faith has been destroyed by the suffering God allows to be inflicted on a person or a race, concluding, “If there was a God who loved us, He wouldn’t let this happen.”

These persons disbelieve eternal laws which they consider contrary to their concept of the effect of God’s love. Persons who take this position do not understand the nature of God’s love or the purpose of His laws and commandments. The love of God does not supersede His laws and His commandments, and the effect of God’s laws and commandments does not diminish the purpose and effect of His love. The same should be true of parental love and rules.

II.

First, consider the love of God, described so meaningfully this morning by President Dieter F. Uchtdorf. “Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?” the Apostle Paul asked. Not tribulation, not persecution, not peril or the sword (see Romans 8:35). “For I am persuaded,” he concluded, “that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, … nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God” (verses 38–39).

There is no greater evidence of the infinite power and perfection of God’s love than is declared by the Apostle John: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son” (John 3:16). Another Apostle wrote that God “spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all” (Romans 8:32). Think how it must have grieved our Heavenly Father to send His Son to endure incomprehensible suffering for our sins. That is the greatest evidence of His love for each of us!

God’s love for His children is an eternal reality, but why does He love us so much, and why do we desire that love? The answer is found in the relationship between God’s love and His laws.

Some seem to value God’s love because of their hope that His love is so great and so unconditional that it will mercifully excuse them from obeying His laws. In contrast, those who understand God’s plan for His children know that God’s laws are invariable, which is another great evidence of His love for His children. Mercy cannot rob justice,2 and those who obtain mercy are “they who have kept the covenant and observed the commandment” (D&C 54:6).

We read again and again in the Bible and in modern scriptures of God’s anger with the wicked3 and of His acting in His wrath4 against those who violate His laws. How are anger and wrath evidence of His love? Joseph Smith taught that God “institute[d] laws whereby [the spirits that He would send into the world] could have a privilege to advance like himself.”5 God’s love is so perfect that He lovingly requires us to obey His commandments because He knows that only through obedience to His laws can we become perfect, as He is. For this reason, God’s anger and His wrath are not a contradiction of His love but an evidence of His love. Every parent knows that you can love a child totally and completely while still being creatively angry and disappointed at that child’s self-defeating behavior.

The love of God is so universal that His perfect plan bestows many gifts on all of His children, even those who disobey His laws. Mortality is one such gift, bestowed on all who qualified in the War in Heaven.6 Another unconditional gift is the universal resurrection: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Corinthians 15:22). Many other mortal gifts are not tied to our personal obedience to law. As Jesus taught, our Heavenly Father “maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust” (Matthew 5:45).

If only we will listen, we can know of God’s love and feel it, even when we are disobedient. A woman recently returned to Church activity gave this description in a sacrament meeting talk: “He has always been there for me, even when I rejected Him. He has always guided me and comforted me with His tender mercies all around me, but I [was] too angry to see and accept incidents and feelings as such.”7

III.

God’s choicest blessings are clearly contingent upon obedience to God’s laws and commandments. The key teaching is from modern revelation:

“There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

“And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated” (D&C 130:20–21).

This great principle helps us understand the why of many things, like justice and mercy balanced by the Atonement. It also explains why God will not forestall the exercise of agency by His children. Agency—our power to choose—is fundamental to the gospel plan that brings us to earth. God does not intervene to forestall the consequences of some persons’ choices in order to protect the well-being of other persons—even when they kill, injure, or oppress one another—for this would destroy His plan for our eternal progress.8 He will bless us to endure the consequences of others’ choices, but He will not prevent those choices.9

If a person understands the teachings of Jesus, he or she cannot reasonably conclude that our loving Heavenly Father or His divine Son believes that Their love supersedes Their commandments. Consider these examples.

When Jesus began His ministry, His first message was repentance.10

When He exercised loving mercy by not condemning the woman taken in adultery, He nevertheless told her, “Go, and sin no more” (John 8:11).

Jesus taught, “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 7:21).

The effect of God’s commandments and laws is not changed to accommodate popular behavior or desires. If anyone thinks that godly or parental love for an individual grants the loved one license to disobey the law, he or she does not understand either love or law. The Lord declared: “That which breaketh a law, and abideth not by law, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin, and altogether abideth in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, justice, nor judgment. Therefore, they must remain filthy still” (D&C 88:35).

We read in modern revelation, “All kingdoms have a law given” (D&C 88:36). For example:

“He who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.

“And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.

“And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory” (D&C 88:22–24).

In other words, the kingdom of glory to which the Final Judgment assigns us is not determined by love but by the law that God has invoked in His plan to qualify us for eternal life, “the greatest of all the gifts of God” (D&C 14:7).

IV.

In teaching and reacting to their children, parents have many opportunities to apply these principles. One such opportunity has to do with the gifts parents bestow on their children. Just as God has bestowed some gifts on all of His mortal children without requiring their personal obedience to His laws, parents provide many benefits like housing and food even if their children are not in total harmony with all parental requirements. But, following the example of an all-wise and loving Heavenly Father who has given laws and commandments for the benefit of His children, wise parents condition some parental gifts on obedience.

If parents have a wayward child—such as a teenager indulging in alcohol or drugs—they face a serious question. Does parental love require that these substances or their consumption be allowed in the home, or do the requirements of civil law or the seriousness of the conduct or the interests of other children in the home require that this be forbidden?

To pose an even more serious question, if an adult child is living in cohabitation, does the seriousness of sexual relations outside the bonds of marriage require that this child feel the full weight of family disapproval by being excluded from any family contacts, or does parental love require that the fact of cohabitation be ignored? I have seen both of these extremes, and I believe that both are inappropriate.

Where do parents draw the line? That is a matter for parental wisdom, guided by the inspiration of the Lord. There is no area of parental action that is more needful of heavenly guidance or more likely to receive it than the decisions of parents in raising their children and governing their families. This is the work of eternity.

As parents grapple with these problems, they should remember the Lord’s teaching that we leave the ninety and nine and go out into the wilderness to rescue the lost sheep.11 President Thomas S. Monson has called for a loving crusade to rescue our brothers and sisters who are wandering in the wilderness of apathy or ignorance.12 These teachings require continued loving concern, which surely requires continued loving associations.

Parents should also remember the Lord’s frequent teaching that “whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth” (Hebrews 12:6).13 In his conference talk on tolerance and love, Elder Russell M. Nelson taught that “real love for the sinner may compel courageous confrontation—not acquiescence! Real love does not support self-destructing behavior.”14

Wherever the line is drawn between the power of love and the force of law, the breaking of commandments is certain to impact loving family relationships. Jesus taught:

“Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

“For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.

“The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother” (Luke 12:51–53).

This sobering teaching reminds us that when family members are not united in striving to keep the commandments of God, there will be divisions. We do all that we can to avoid impairing loving relationships, but sometimes it happens after all we can do.

In the midst of such stress, we must endure the reality that the straying of our loved ones will detract from our happiness, but it should not detract from our love for one another or our patient efforts to be united in understanding God’s love and God’s laws.

I testify of the truth of these things, which are part of the plan of salvation and the doctrine of Christ, of whom I testify in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

Notes

1. See Russell M. Nelson, “Divine Love,” Liahona, Feb. 2003, 12; Ensign, Feb. 2003, 20.

2. See Alma 42:25.

3. See, for example, Judges 2:12–14; Psalm 7:11; D&C 5:8; 63:32.

5. Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith (2007), 210.

7. Letter of Dec. 6, 2005, in author’s possession.

8. Compare Alma 42:8.

9. Compare Mosiah 24:14–15.

10. See Matthew 4:17.

11. See Luke 15:3–7.

12. See Thomas S. Monson, “Lost Battalions,” Liahona, Sept. 1987, 3; Ensign, Apr. 1987, 3.

14. Russell M. Nelson, “Teach Us Tolerance and Love,” Ensign, May 1994, 71.

 


TOPICS: General Discusssion; Theology
KEYWORDS: christian; inman; lds; mormon
Disclaimer: I am former LDS and "anti" mormonism. I post articles from official mormon sources among others, that often relate to current discussions taking place on the forum to provide a means for open discussion in the Religion forum.
 
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1 posted on 11/12/2010 3:30:13 PM PST by greyfoxx39
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To: colorcountry; Colofornian; Elsie; FastCoyote; svcw; Zakeet; SkyPilot; rightazrain; ...

Ping


2 posted on 11/12/2010 3:32:01 PM PST by greyfoxx39 (I love Karma. Loser dem house staffers lose insurance, have to go on ObamaCare. ;o)
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To: greyfoxx39
It is almost impossible to know where to begin at - this article is so anti-biblical and anti-God.

Mercy cannot rob justice,2 and those who obtain mercy are “they who have kept the covenant and observed the commandment” (D&C 54:6).

The Apostle Paul destroyed this statement:

Tit 3:5* Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

3 posted on 11/12/2010 3:54:15 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Godzilla; Colofornian
It is almost impossible to know where to begin at - this article is so anti-biblical and anti-God.

I thought it read like something from the 1800s, but no, it's from just a year ago.

I think it's a good companion piece to

LDS don’t get theological respect because they seek and shun mainstream acceptance, prof says

4 posted on 11/12/2010 4:01:57 PM PST by greyfoxx39 (I love Karma. Loser dem house staffers lose insurance, have to go on ObamaCare. ;o)
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To: greyfoxx39

5 posted on 11/12/2010 4:08:10 PM PST by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet - Visualize)
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To: greyfoxx39
I thought it read like something from the 1800s, but no, it's from just a year ago.

Indeed. Wonder when tire tread marks are going to show up on the good 'ol apostle for these statements.

6 posted on 11/12/2010 4:14:11 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Godzilla

7 posted on 11/12/2010 4:16:13 PM PST by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet - Visualize)
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To: greyfoxx39

It’s Mormon! Of course it’s wackey.


8 posted on 11/12/2010 4:18:18 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: greyfoxx39

The same Dallin Oaks who arranged to get a check of over $100,000 to Mark Hoffmann without paperwork, and then pulled a Sgt Schultz “I know nothing” routine when the police came asking questions after Hoffmann blew up two people?

That Dallin Oaks?


9 posted on 11/12/2010 4:23:20 PM PST by lurk
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To: Quix

A Mormon is an adherent, practitioner, follower, or constituent of Mormonism, which is the largest branch of the Latter Day Saint movement. Most commonly, the term Mormon refers to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), which is commonly but imprecisely referred to as the Mormon Church. In addition, the term Mormon may refer to any of the relatively small sects of Mormon fundamentalism, and any branch of the Latter Day Saint movement that recognizes Brigham Young as the successor to founder Joseph Smith, Jr. The term Mormon applies to the religion of Mormonism, as well as its culture, texts, and art.

The term derives from the Book of Mormon, a sacred text published in 1830 regarded by the faith as a supplemental Testament to the Bible. Dictated by Joseph Smith, Jr., the text claims to be an ancient chronicle of a fallen and lost indigenous American nation, compiled by the prophet–warrior Mormon and his son Moroni, the last of his Nephite people. The term Mormon was initially a derogatory term applied to Latter Day Saints in the 1830s, but soon was embraced by the faith. Because the term became identified with polygamy in the mid-to-late-19th century, some Latter Day Saint denominations who never practiced polygamy have renounced the term.


10 posted on 11/12/2010 4:37:58 PM PST by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet - Visualize)
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To: All

11 posted on 11/12/2010 4:41:02 PM PST by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet - Visualize)
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To: greyfoxx39; All
From the article: This sobering teaching reminds us that when family members are not united in striving to keep the commandments of God, there will be divisions.

(So much for "families are forever" when Joseph Smith--& no one else ever before him--carved up heaven into the telestial...a word Smith totally made up...the celestial...the terrestial and "spirit prison" -- which Mormons actually define as "spirit home.").

For a Mormon article highlighting how Mormonism teaches the righteous and the wicked will be together for who knows how long before all these "divisions" take place, go to:

The Spirit World, Our Next Home

Here's an 8-point summary of that article in case you don't want to read it:
1. The Mormon spirit world is "on this earth."
2. Lds "prophet" Ezra Taft Benson declared that “the spirit world is not far away. Sometimes the veil between this life and the life beyond becomes very thin." [Hence, it's how Mormon leaders justify encouraging plenty of interaction of Mormons with dead spirits]
3. The wicked go to "spirit prison," which is not eternal hell.
4. The author of this article references the apostle Peter highlighting this spirit “prison” (1 Pet. 3:18–20, 1 Pet. 4:6.)...yet surprisingly he bills it as a spirit "school" of sorts ("it is chiefly a place of learning and waiting, not a place of suffering.") [Oh. First Mormons eliminate the eternality of hell. Then they redefine actually as a "school," which I suppose for some students of our public schools, the same thing as "hell."]
5. This author, quoting Joseph Smith, says: "...the spirit world is the temporary home of the spirits of all mankind, whether they are good or evil. Thus Joseph Smith could declare that “the righteous and the wicked all go to the same world of spirits until the resurrection.” (Teachings, p. 310.) Yet some have wondered why Jesus promised the dying thief that after his death he would join the Savior in paradise. The Prophet Joseph taught: “King James’ translators make it out to say paradise. But what is paradise?"
6. So, instead of teaching that the righteous go to heaven, or really any "degree of salvation," Mormonism actually emphasizes a "dumbing down" where "all mankind" originally goes to the same place, no matter what! And guess what? God isn't there: it is not the place where God the Father, the resurrected Lord, and other resurrected beings dwell. Rather, it is an intermediate condition or state where people await the resurrection—a sphere where disembodied spirits live in one of several conditions according to what their mortal lives have merited."
7. So, so far, trusting in Jesus Christ and relating to Jesus Christ amounts to what your life merits. You're just a cosmic Boy Scout.
8. Thus, Mormons remain "missionaries" on the other side. It's no place of rest as the Bible describes heaven. Yup, for Mormons "...the spirit world is the place where disembodied spirits go. It is a tangible, substantial sphere incorporated with our earth, the focal point of a massive missionary effort in which we share." Thus, they get to continue to earn their way to heaven by trying to bump up others along the way!

12 posted on 11/12/2010 4:52:14 PM PST by Colofornian ("So how do LDS deal with the [Adam-God] ph<enomenon? WE DON'T; WE SIMPLY SET IT ASIDE" - BYU prof)
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To: JoeProBono
Ah, a picture of one of the many Mormon temples where dead spirits (or those masquerading as them) pop up to visit Mormons:

The Haunting of the Salt Lake City Temple opening and of Lds General Authorities

Lds "prophet" Wilford Woodruff claimed: "I have had many interviews with Brother Joseph until the last 15 or 20 years of my life; I have not see him for that length of time." Journal of Discourses, 21:317-318, October 10, 1880, cf. JoD, 19:229

Similar claim by Lds "apostle" Heber C. Kimball (the one who manifested signs of demon possession as a Mormon missionary in 1837): "Joseph Smith continued visiting myself and others up to a certain time, and then it stopped." -- Lds "apostle" Heber C. Kimball, Deseret Weekly News, 53:112, Temples of the Most High, 1896, p. 345

Spring, 1893:

Yes, it stopped in the 1870s...only to reoccur in the 1890s: Mormons claim that when they opened their temple in the Spring of 1893, "Some Latter-day Saints saw...past Presidents of the Church and other deceased Church leaders." (Our Heritage: A Brief History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1996, p. 1020

13 posted on 11/12/2010 5:10:29 PM PST by Colofornian ("So how do LDS deal with the [Adam-God] ph<enomenon? WE DON'T; WE SIMPLY SET IT ASIDE" - BYU prof)
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To: JoeProBono; ejonesie22; Godzilla; Elsie; All
...the Book of Mormon, a sacred text published in 1830

Mormon "sacred" things not found in the Mormon "sacred" BoM:


1. Church organizational structure and titles of leaders [Hey, we don't need to provoke pagans into laughter by coming up with religious titles like the bishopric, do we?]
2. gods...plural [due to insistance by some FReeper Mormons that they only worship one godhead, a few FI have begun referencing that belief as polymonotheism]
3. Plurality of wives doctrine [Ah. Polymonogamy]
4. Word of Wisdom [I guess the people of South America weren't very wise about Brazilian coffee]
5. God is an exalted man [Who knew this facebook boy would make it big? Hmm...a god who worshiped his own god/gods once upon a time, eh?]
6. Celestial marriage [If you want to become an eternal polygamist, current Lds church policy says you can...just make sure you secure permission of anybody you've divorced & get "married" to your multiple SERIAL spouses one at a time in the temple for eternity]
7. Men may become Gods ["Hey, God, move over...you can go ahead & take my measurements for my throne"]
8. Three degrees of glory [Mormons tout resurrection for all; but John says there's a resurrection unto "damnation" (John 5:29) -- not too glorious
9. Baptism for the dead [monopoly on the religio-necro industry, that's for sure! I think we should call this a polymonopoly on necro-baptisms...when are they going to open up fast-food-like windows to meet the demand to grow with more genealogical records online?]
10. Eternal progression [at least til you hit the ceiling of your assigned glory...you terrestials aren't getting out!]
11. The Aaronic Priesthood [yeah, like the Bible -- apostle Paul -- says, these 12-year-old "elders" better keep to one wife!]
12. Temple works of washings, anointing, endowments, sealing; along with temple [I guess the people of the Book of Mormon times weren't very "sacred" compared to contemporary Mormons]

14 posted on 11/12/2010 5:38:25 PM PST by Colofornian ("So how do LDS deal with the [Adam-God] ph<enomenon? WE DON'T; WE SIMPLY SET IT ASIDE" - BYU prof)
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To: greyfoxx39; All
From the article: “And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated” (D&C 130:20–21).

Ah, the very heart and heartbeat of Mormonism...

What's the reason the Mormon god blesses you?
His compassion? (No)
His Lovingkindness? (No)
His mercy? (No)
His grace? (No)
His longsuffering, patience & forgiving ways? (No)
Because He's your Father? (No)
Because He's your organizer? [Mormons don't believe your god created you from nothing...so why bother prostituting the word "creator" here?] (No)
Because an all-perfect Jesus died for you (if you're a contemporary) or an all-perfect Messiah would die for you (if you're someone like Abraham)? (No)

All these are "no-gos." Mormonism predicates ALL...
...blessings from God...
...His forgiveness...
...operation of His grace...
...upon you meriting/deserving/laboring/working/earning & becoming "worthy" of it.

IOW, the Mormon god is obligated to bless you because of some impersonal law the Mormon gods started back somewhere. He owes you...and the more "perfect" you are, the more he owes you big time. Like blessing you w/your own world...as a god...eternal sex...maybe multiple wives...worship and hymns written to you from all your kids...

And then, you too, can be like the Mormon god and decide to withhold priesthood blessings and temple weddings for whatever skin color you like for almost 150 years...who knows, maybe you'll curse the "white skin" this time!!!

15 posted on 11/12/2010 5:54:23 PM PST by Colofornian ("So how do LDS deal with the [Adam-God] ph<enomenon? WE DON'T; WE SIMPLY SET IT ASIDE" - BYU prof)
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To: All
Seekers of truth,

If you peruse the Free Republic religion forums you will notice a pattern. There's an anti-Mormon group of people here that spends a great deal of their time attacking the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. They post regurgitated propaganda on an almost daily basis.

They have a misguided obsession. You can witness many different tactics employed that you might find quite interesting. The straw man argument is a big favorite and is frequently preceded by cherry-picking quotes or other material. After the "quotation" the attacker will misrepresent what has been said or what was meant and then attack their own interpretation.Later they will have the audacity to claim they were "only" quoting our own material.  

They will of course insist ad nauseum that they are merely using our sources and are therefore innocent of any deceptive practice. LDS persons have no issue whatsoever having our scriptures or leaders quoted as long as it is presented fairly and accurately. This is rarely (if ever) done.

Another favorite is posting scripture or statements which on their own really present no dilemma. They make something out of nothing while never bringing up a single objection that hasn't been addressed a hundred times before.

You might note a couple of other tactics used to try to antagonize is the use of disrespectful or insulting terms or language and/or pictures. That's a Christlike thing to do right? Yeah I don't think so either. It does speak volumes about them though.

Sometimes they cruise the headlines of the day seeking any story that might be twisted into making the Church look bad. Anything will do, just watch the progression of posts following it and see what I mean.

After reading their posts, I invite you to seek the truth about whatever "issue" they seem to be "revealing" or "exposing". I promise that if you do so with honest intent, the "ahah" moments you will have will be many and frequent. You will start to recognize the tactics employed to cleverly twist and attack and will likely chuckle the more you see. In actuality, there's nothing new here. It's all been addressed many times before.

The latest twist in the anti-Mormon propaganda machine is to actually go to the links provided, but then they cherry pick what they want, then quote and straw man attack that. Clever. It almost appears that they are helping you, the seeker of truth out by doing some footwork for you. Not so much. Don't be insulted, look for yourself. It's not the haystack they want you to think.

Here's a few links to get your started from a different viewpoint. I have found that the vast majority of the "issues" brought up can be found and addressed at http://www.fairlds.org/ but here's more:

http://scriptures.lds.org/
http://www.lds.org
http://www.fairlds.org/
http://www.mormonapologetics.org/
http://www.mormonwiki.com/Main_Page
http://www.lightplanet.com/response/index.html
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDS_Intro.shtml
http://www.answeringantimormons.com/index.htm
http://promormon.blogspot.com/

Now you will likely notice the "you never address our points" posts pop up as usual. All after providing the answers just as you have here.

Sometimes it is claimed that these sites present a needle in a haystack. Far from it. But if you give up before you try you won't know will you?

Will you wear blinders too? Seek truth. Find out for yourself. Want to chat with someone on any topic? A few of these sites provide just that. So do your homework sincere seeker of truth. Listen and read from both "sides". Make up your own mind.

I witness to you of these truths and wish you the best, in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Amen.

 


16 posted on 11/12/2010 6:26:23 PM PST by Paragon Defender
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To: greyfoxx39

Thanks for posting the article by Elder Oaks. I found it both thought-provoking and inspirational.


17 posted on 11/12/2010 6:39:41 PM PST by Logophile
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To: JoeProBono

YUP

Grew up around them.

Some are wonderful people.


18 posted on 11/12/2010 7:36:23 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Paragon Defender; All
Seekers of truth,


19 posted on 11/12/2010 8:25:40 PM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: JoeProBono

there are no facts or evidence to back up the book of mormon; or the lost nation. I am also sure the native americans were not mormon.


20 posted on 11/12/2010 10:05:02 PM PST by Veritas01 (Veritas)
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To: greyfoxx39
The love of God does not supersede His laws and His commandments, and the effect of God’s laws and commandments does not diminish the purpose and effect of His love.

--Dallin H. Oaks,
“Love and Law,” Liahona, Nov 2009, 26–29

 
Well; it looks like SOMEthing sure supersedes the Mormon GOD!!!
 



 
Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriages,
which laws have been pronounced constitutional by the court of last resort,
I hereby declare my intention to submit to those laws,
and to use my influence with the members of the Church
over which I preside to have them do likewise.
 
Wilford Woodruff

President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
 
September 24th, 1890

21 posted on 11/13/2010 4:07:23 AM PST by Elsie
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To: greyfoxx39
GOD really loves us; for HE allowed plain and precious things to be removed from His Word for 1800 years!!
22 posted on 11/13/2010 4:09:18 AM PST by Elsie
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To: JoeProBono

“No; I’m NOT eating a lemon. Why do you ask?”


23 posted on 11/13/2010 4:10:17 AM PST by Elsie
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To: Godzilla
Wonder when tire tread marks are going to show up on the good 'ol apostle for these statements.

When?

They already have!

He's DEAD; Jim!

24 posted on 11/13/2010 4:11:20 AM PST by Elsie
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To: lurk
The same Dallin Oaks who arranged to get a check of over $100,000 to Mark Hoffmann without paperwork, and then pulled a Sgt Schultz “I know nothing” routine when the police came asking questions after Hoffmann blew up two people?

He was channeling the same spirit Hinckley did: "I don't know that we teach that."

25 posted on 11/13/2010 4:12:55 AM PST by Elsie
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To: JoeProBono
Because the term became identified with polygamy in the mid-to-late-19th century, some Latter Day Saint denominations who never practiced polygamy have renounced the term.

While some who DO follow GOD's law (D&C 132) and practice polygamy, are not ALLOWED to use the term!

Go figger!

26 posted on 11/13/2010 4:14:50 AM PST by Elsie
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To: JoeProBono
 
 
 
 
           
    Anahiem                          San Deigo       

27 posted on 11/13/2010 4:21:23 AM PST by Elsie
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To: Paragon Defender

Hi there this morning, PD!


28 posted on 11/13/2010 4:22:25 AM PST by Elsie
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To: Logophile
Thanks for posting the article by Elder Oaks. I found it both thought-provoking and inspirational.

PD just found it provoking; I'll bet!

29 posted on 11/13/2010 4:23:14 AM PST by Elsie
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To: Logophile
 

Thanks for posting the article by Elder Oaks. I found it both thought-provoking and inspirational.

Then perhaps you'd like MORE things from Dallin...



 
"Any Latter-day Saint who denounces or opposes, whether actively or otherwise, any plan or doctrine advocated by the 'prophets, seers, and revelators' of the Church is cultivating the spirit of apostacy..."
(Improvement Era, June 1945, p. 354)
 
 
 
Reinforced here......
 

MP3 File

This is the audio clip of Dallin H. Oaks, current Mormon Apostle leader, from the PBS documentary, "The Mormons", declaring unequivocally:

"IT'S WRONG TO CRITICIZE LEADERS OF THE (MORMON) CHURCH, EVEN IF THE CRITICISM IS TRUE."
 

 
Don't criticize?

 
 
 
 
And here:
 

Temple Recommend Questions:

 1 Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost?

 2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?

 3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?

 4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?

 5 Do you live the law of chastity?

 6 Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?

 7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

 8 Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?

 9 Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?

10 Are you a full-tithe payer?

11 Do your keep the Word of Wisdom?

12 Do you have financial or other oblgations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations?

13 If you have previously received your temple endowment:

     Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple?

     Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?

14 Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been?

15 Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances?
 
 
 
 


Oh, they can say that their leaders were NOT speaking for GOD when they said    WHATEVER    but that's NOT the same as criticizing!


 
( Remember fellow Christians:  the Mormon's criticize US because they've been taught that they CAN'T criticize ANY of their leaders; so they HAVE to vent somehow! )


30 posted on 11/13/2010 4:24:57 AM PST by Elsie
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To: Logophile; Paragon Defender

Do either of you guys have a TR?


31 posted on 11/13/2010 4:27:13 AM PST by Elsie
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To: Godzilla

those who obtain mercy are “they who have kept the covenant and observed the commandment” (D&C 54:6).
_____________________________________________

I thought mercy was for the merciful...

How can the mormons “keep” their awful bigotted doctrines and be considered Biblically merciful ???


32 posted on 11/13/2010 7:19:14 AM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Elsie

God likes color so He would go to the pretty one...


33 posted on 11/13/2010 7:20:49 AM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Tennessee Nana

Placemark


34 posted on 11/14/2010 9:01:38 AM PST by greyfoxx39 (I love Karma. Loser dem house staffers lose insurance, have to go on ObamaCare. ;o)
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To: greyfoxx39

bttt


35 posted on 11/14/2010 7:34:50 PM PST by Elsie
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Note: This thread was posted in November 2010.

Are you willing to do for the truth what the cults do for a lie? If you REALLY want to know about mormonism..click here

Read the testimonies of those who learned the truth about mormonism


36 posted on 12/20/2010 7:22:43 AM PST by greyfoxx39 (T Roosevelt said speak softly, carry a big stick. Obama talks trash and carries a broken stick)
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To: Godzilla
That is what I just love about LDS doctrine and practice. So quick to tell us how much they love Jesus, even faster at negating and diminishing his sacrifice and nature...
37 posted on 12/20/2010 7:32:02 AM PST by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: greyfoxx39

After reading this again, I am still in awe. There is not one Biblical Truth. It breaks my heart that there are those that fall for these lies.


38 posted on 12/20/2010 7:45:05 AM PST by svcw
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To: svcw; restornu

I thought the MORMONs left this thread; hopefully to DIE and NEVER be seen again!


39 posted on 12/20/2010 8:17:29 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going.)
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To: svcw
It breaks my heart that there are those that fall for these lies

Me too S, me too.

40 posted on 12/20/2010 8:19:54 AM PST by T Minus Four (Duh. We were talking about in the old days or not-so-distant old days)
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To: greyfoxx39

Love and Law...

Reminds me of that purely Christian song...O Holy Night...

Truly He taught us to love one another
His Law is Love and his Gospel is Peace

Oh noez the next bit...Hide yer eyes mormons...

Chains shall He break
For the slave is our brother...

Oh shut it off Nana...

And in His Name all oppression shall cease...

Nana you iz mean, bigoted, hateful...

Sweet hymns of joy in grateful chorus raise we...

Ah thats better, nana...You haz to mean Joseph Smith...

Nope kid...

Let all within us praise His Holy name...

No ??? Well that there was about Joseph...

Nope...Listen...

Christ is the LORD
O praise His Name forever

AHHHHHHHHH Stop it Nana...You dont follow da lord...

His Power and Glory ever more proclaim...

Joseph right ???

Nope grasshopper...

His Power and Glory ever more proclaim..

But Joseph communed with jehovah ...

jehovah who ??? Is that like saying jesus Garcia ???

O night divine...

Just what night are you singing about Nana ???

The night when the LORD Jesus Christ was born

LOL

( O Holy Night is just now being played on Laura Ingraham

:)


41 posted on 12/20/2010 8:25:49 AM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: greyfoxx39; All
From the article: These persons disbelieve eternal laws which they consider contrary to their concept of the effect of God’s love.

Earlier this year I looked through most of the entries the Lds church had on a search under "laws."

Loose-knit, the Lds church has dozens of laws.

You would think that if, as this Lds "apostle" indicates, that the Mormon church would want to emphasize that its members were to follow such "laws," they would centralize them somewhere. Make it easier to note what they are -- let alone follow them.

Do they? (No) Nor do these "eternal laws" get equal attention by the Mormon church.

The two that stand out on its Web site is have to do with tithing (consecrating resources) & purity (abstinence).

42 posted on 12/20/2010 8:29:57 AM PST by Colofornian (Final filtered authority figures of Lds: PR spokesmen & Unofficial Mormon links PD uses)
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To: Colofornian
From the article: These persons disbelieve eternal laws which they consider contrary to their concept of the effect of God’s love.

Like that pesky thing in D&C 132?

That ETERNAL polygamy LAW??

43 posted on 12/20/2010 9:14:20 AM PST by Elsie
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To: Colofornian
From the article: These persons disbelieve eternal laws which they consider contrary to their concept of the effect of God’s love.

Like that pesky thing in D&C 132?

That ETERNAL polygamy LAW??

44 posted on 12/20/2010 9:14:38 AM PST by Elsie
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To: ejonesie22
So quick to tell us how much they love Jesus, even faster at negating and diminishing his sacrifice and nature...

Indeed, this says it all

Mercy cannot rob justice,2 and those who obtain mercy are “they who have kept the covenant and observed the commandment” (D&C 54:6).

45 posted on 12/20/2010 9:15:22 AM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: JoeProBono
An Open Letter to Mormons who are
sincere and serious about their faith...
 
(but slightly troubled and embarrassed by the posts
of "defender-mormons")
 
If you peruse the Free Republic religion forums
you will notice a pattern. There’s a group of
Christians who spend a great deal of time posting
from Official Mormon Sources - both the Book of
Mormon as well as Mormon Prophets and Church
materials - real quotes from real mormon materials.
 
You will also notice that many of these Christians
are former Mormons who left Mormonism and came to
know the Biblical Jesus Christ and His Gospel of Grace
- apart from the treadmill of human works.
 
They have a passion to share what they learned with
other Mormons.
 
Of course, they are attacked regularly by a very,
small group of Mormons on FR who have zeal, but no real
knowledge beyond what the Mormon Church has told
them.
 
Why can't these so-called "defenders" provide any:
 
… Objective Facts
… Objective Evidence
… Or Logical support
 
Anything OBJECTIVE that any reasonable person would
see and agree that it lends support the claims of
Mormonism.
 
God is a God of real history. He wove the strands of
human DNA, His Book, the Bible is rooted and grounded
in real places on real maps and is verified through
archeology, geography, history and genetics.
 
If Mormonism is true, why is it based only on subjective
feelings and
why doesn't it have the same kind of objective
support the Bible does
?
 
Has God changed?
 
Is He no longer in control of the world?
 
If they could support the claims of Mormonism with facts,
you know they would. But it never happens. I've even heard
these "defenders" say God hid all evidence to make our
faith greater. Has the God of the universe now become
the Cosmic Easter Bunny? Or is He unchangeable, like the
Bible teaches?
 
*** Why would God provide every kind of objective support
for the Bible's rich history and none for the Book of
Mormon? ***
 
These "defenders" post links over and over again that
“address” things yet never provide an answer that is
buttressed by the ring of truth, echoed by history,
archeology, genetics, geography, etc.
 
You deserve more than feelings and non-answers.
 
After reading both sides on this thread and others,
you may very well be wondering about what you were
taught when you joined the LDS church. You also may
be wondering how to resolve the tension of a faith
that is based entirely on subjective claims, yet
wants to claim the same God who has commanded you
to love Him with "all your mind."
 
You are not alone in this journey.
 
Many have approached us who are Christians asking where
to find out more and some, even, to ask how to come to
know the Biblical Christ and some even how  to gracefully
leave Mormonism and start a new life with Christ.
 
Many here have already set out to finally and joyfully know
the true God and Savior. They understand the terrible choice
of being totally sincere about your faith, but increasingly
concerned that it isn't everything you once believed and hoped for
.

After coming to know the truth, they are on a path that gives them
the rest God promised to His children and the certainty of His
ultimate plan for them.
 
Here are some links to get you started in your quest to know
the Biblical Christ:
http://www.irr.org/mit/default.html
http://www.exmormonsforjesus.org/
http://4mormon.org/ex-mormon.php
http://www.exmormon.org/
http://www.mormoncurtain.com/
In the end though, links may raise more questions and concerns
and sometimes it helps to have someone who has wrestled
with all these issues already.
 
I invite you to private FReep-mail any of the Christians
on this thread to ask questions about the concerns you have.
 
We always do our best to directly answer your questions with
facts, evidence and logical support.
 
Take a step.
 
What do you have to lose at this point? And you have much to
gain. 
 
If something is true, it can withstand any question, no matter
how tough. If it is false, it is better to know while your life
is in front of you.
 
There is peace and rest waiting for you today. Take a step to
find it now.
 
All the Best,
ampu

46 posted on 12/20/2010 9:57:28 AM PST by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

47 posted on 12/20/2010 10:13:32 AM PST by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet - Visualize)
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To: JoeProBono

bttt


48 posted on 12/20/2010 2:49:09 PM PST by Elsie
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