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When are we saved?
Antinomianism and Salvation ^ | November 19,2010 | Gart O'Toole

Posted on 11/19/2010 7:02:39 PM PST by Benchim

But "legalists" wants you to live under the Old Testament law in order to get "Tithes" to pay their mortgages as "professional Christians" and to do this they reimpose the falsehood that you must live a"sinless" life. Sin is undefined but they want to throw you back under the law to get you to pay money and feel guilt when your salvation was a free gift from God. The key to this argument is Paul in Chapter 7 of Romans.


TOPICS: Current Events; Other Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: condemnation; grace; judgment; salvation
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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The truth of salvation is obfuscated on purpose. It gives deceivers a chance to confuse you and make you struggle ( and pay them) when there is no question that you are saved.
1 posted on 11/19/2010 7:02:41 PM PST by Benchim
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To: Benchim

“believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be save-and your house”. That’s when you are saved.

You are not saved by a Church, Deacon, pastor, priest, rabbi or anything you do personally.


2 posted on 11/19/2010 7:07:49 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: Benchim

When we call upon the name of the Lord, repent and ask Him to save us. It’s a mystery.


3 posted on 11/19/2010 7:10:38 PM PST by Twinkie
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To: Benchim

Amen, bro. Only God Himself really knows WHEN someone is saved.

And while we can know that we really ARE saved (I John 5:13), for certain there are many who think that they are but who tragically will find they are not. I Jn. 5:2. ‘by their fruit you shall know them...’


4 posted on 11/19/2010 7:11:08 PM PST by Arlis (- Virginia loghome/woods-dweller/Jesus lovin'/Bible-totin'/"gun-clinger")
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To: Benchim
But "legalists" wants you to live under the Old Testament law in order to get "Tithes" to pay their mortgages as "professional Christians" and to do this they reimpose the falsehood that you must live a"sinless" life. Sin is undefined but they want to throw you back under the law to get you to pay money and feel guilt when your salvation was a free gift from God.

Who are these "legalists" of which you speak? Can you name names?

5 posted on 11/19/2010 7:11:32 PM PST by Alex Murphy ("Posting news feeds, making eyes bleed, he's hated on seven continents")
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To: Benchim
You are saved when you stuff your superstitions and dogma into a very out-of-the-way storage compartment, get off your duff, and fight for your freedom from tyranny, whether against this communist onslaught, or against religious tyranny (with God's help, of course).

God is real, I believe, but can't prove.

Religion is man-made; that's a fact.

6 posted on 11/19/2010 7:14:17 PM PST by meadsjn (Sarah 2012, or sooner)
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To: CynicalBear

You nailed it. Why the deception by others?


7 posted on 11/19/2010 7:16:46 PM PST by Benchim
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To: Arlis

John 3:16. That’s it.


8 posted on 11/19/2010 7:19:18 PM PST by Benchim
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To: Benchim

Simple, Romans 10:9,10.
Next question.


9 posted on 11/19/2010 7:24:35 PM PST by Doulos1 (Bitter Clinger Forever!)
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To: meadsjn

WOW, talk about a mixed message. Here is someone reaching out for clarification.


10 posted on 11/19/2010 7:28:56 PM PST by doc1019 (Martyrdom is a great thing, until it is your turn.)
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To: Benchim

If you want to go to Heaven when it’s your time, ask Jesus Christ to take you there. That’s what one of the thieves on the cross beside Jesus did.


11 posted on 11/19/2010 7:31:19 PM PST by charlie72
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To: Benchim

Jesus said you must be born again.

When asked what they must do to be saved, people were told to repent and be baptized; and, to believe and be baptized.

Baptism is a sacrament done by elders in the church, as we can see in the New Testament. You don’t baptize yourself. Even Jesus went to the local prophet to be baptized.

Because we see the thief on the cross being told he’ll be in heaven with Jesus without baptism, we assume that if you are willing to be baptized but the actual baptism doesn’t happen, it’s still good. That’s not the same as refusing baptism.

Jesus calls the church His body. I wouldn’t denigrate it.

He gave specific instructions about how the government of the church is to be run; particularly for elders/bishops and deacons. Interestingly, He gave instructions for casting out of the church those who walk contrary to His word. Hard to cast someone out who isn’t a member in the first place!

There are false churches. You must, like the Bereans, inspect the Bible to see to it that your church is one that is obedient to God’s teachings. You have to take that responsibility. But it is not excuse to indulge your pride -

-your pride -

and say you won’t be part of His church.

Jesus also calls the church His bride. You want to be part of that. He did not create His church on a whim. It is a real and serious institution of great importance. The nursery of young believers, the sender of missionaries, the teacher of right doctrine, the help of those in need, the refuge of the needy, the place where baptism and the Lord’s Supper are served - it is not optional.

Jesus said He is the bridegroom. He said he will come for His bride, and there will be a great marriage supper in heaven. You want to be there.

As for teaching about tithes and so forth, salvation is not earned by obedience. But obedience to God’s word (not sinful men) is the evidence of the work of the Holy Spirit in your life. If you have no interest in keeping God’s law (not to earn your salvation, but for God’s glory and your benefit) I would wonder how could you be a Christian? “By grace ye are saved,” but, “Faith without works is dead.”


12 posted on 11/19/2010 7:35:29 PM PST by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: Persevero; Benchim
Baptism is a sacrament done by elders in the church, as we can see in the New Testament. You don’t baptize yourself. Even Jesus went to the local prophet to be baptized.

If a sacrament imparts grace, why did Jesus get baptized?

The other thing you're missing is the sequence of events. The Biblical model is belief first then baptism.

13 posted on 11/19/2010 7:42:57 PM PST by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: CynicalBear

BINGO !!! We are saved by Grace and that itself is a gift from God. There is NO human deed or merit that can save you no matter what your Priest, Elder, Pastor,Rabbi, or anyone else tells you. Like it says, if the Law could give you righteousness, you could have been saved by the Law. But only Christ’s dying for you can do that. And while he was hanging there for you, the Law was nailed to that very cross.


14 posted on 11/19/2010 7:49:48 PM PST by fish hawk (w)
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To: Benchim

I don’t know— I reckon Jesus will tell me when the time comes.


15 posted on 11/19/2010 7:50:21 PM PST by Irenic
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To: Alex Murphy
I can. Most liberals and the Democratic party. Congress people that think that they are not doing their job unless they are passing laws. Laws that they themselves cannot live by and wont. In the churches you can tell a legalist by what they say. No lipstick, no wine or beer, no dancing, no rock and roll music. These are legalists. you probably know a few. I believe it's called asceticism, thou shalt not, punish thy self so you will feel better.
16 posted on 11/19/2010 7:57:18 PM PST by fish hawk (w)
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To: Irenic

Let the truthbetold!!!!! The most contriversal words ever spoken were and you wont him them in the politcally correct churches. Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life noone comes to the Father except through me. Wow.! that means no budda mohammed etc!! Don’t take passages out of context. First christian sermon was. Peter ACTS 2.36-37 repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of jesus christ for the forgiveness of sins and you will recieve the gift of the holy spirit. No saving prays. must follow scripture greatest day of my life was that day nov 24 ,1988. greatest day ever


17 posted on 11/19/2010 8:01:45 PM PST by truthbetold11 (truthbetold11)
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To: Benchim

Money does not mean that you are saved, however.


18 posted on 11/19/2010 8:03:18 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Benchim
The “Necessity” of Being Catholic (Ecumenical Caucus)
Can Non-Catholics Be Saved?
Salvation -- Are You Saved?
No Salvation Outside the Church

What does the Catholic Church mean by the phrase, "Outside the Church there is no salvation"
Christian, I Presume? (Salvation) [Ecumenical]
Rock Solid: The Salvation History of the Catholic Church [Ecumenical]
Who Can Be Saved?
Grace, Faith, and Works

Getting in Touch With Reality (good character and behavior as a ticket to Heaven)
My Personal Savior
The Early Church Fathers on Salvation Outside the Church [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
Extra ecclesiam - Outside the Church there is no salvation.
Is Faith Necessary for Salvation? (Part 2)

Good Will Equals Salvation? (Did the pope say non christians could be saved - part 1)
The Experience of the Salvation of Christ Today
Nonbelievers Too Can Be Saved, Says Pope
Worthy Is the Lamb?
Limbo and the Hope of Salvation

19 posted on 11/19/2010 8:04:29 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Benchim

enter the Table of Contents of the Catechism of the Catholic Church here

 

What the Catechism of the Catholic Church says on "Once Saved, Always Saved:"

161. "Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. [Cf. Mk 16:16 ; Jn 3:36 ; Jn 6:40 ; et al.] 'Since 'without faith it is impossible to please (God)' and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'']"

162. "Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man. We can lose this priceless gift, as St. Paul indicated to St. Timothy: 'Wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith.' [1 Tim 1:18-19 .] To live, grow and persevere in the faith until the end we must nourish it with the word of God; we must beg the Lord to increase our faith; [Cf. Mk 9:24 ; Lk 17:5 ; Lk 22:32.] it must be 'working through charity,' abounding in hope, and rooted in the faith of the Church. [Gal 5:6 ; Rom 15:13 ; cf. Jam 2:14-26.]"

Finders Keepers? - The Evangelical notion that Christians can't lose their salvation is unbiblical.

20 posted on 11/19/2010 8:06:09 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Benchim

What do you mean when you use the word “saved”? Saved from what?


21 posted on 11/19/2010 8:06:16 PM PST by DouglasKC
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To: Persevero
Faith without works is dead. Now James wrote that and who did he write it to?? Jews my friend, all the Apostles were to go to Israel. Paul is the one that is speaking to “the Church” Gentiles and Jews who are living in grace. All the other apostles were preaching “keep the Law” , why, because they were Jews. Paul was the only Apostle that the Lord sent to the Gentiles. So what does Paul say? By grace you are saved. No where does Paul tell you that works is the way. So what, do we not do good works. Ahhhh, yes we do because we have the Spirit BUT we don't have to to be saved. The biggest mistake Christians make today is by not dividing the Word. That is there were two groups in the book of Acts, the Gentiles who Paul was sent to minister to and the Jews who the rest of the Apostles were sent to.And there was a different message to each group.
22 posted on 11/19/2010 8:09:15 PM PST by fish hawk (w)
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To: Benchim

If you believe, you WILL be changed.


23 posted on 11/19/2010 8:10:48 PM PST by Mr Rogers (When an ass brays, don't reply)
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To: CynicalBear; Benchim

**“believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be save-and your house”. That’s when you are saved.**

Soooo, at that point, the keeper of the prison could just lock Paul and Silas back in their stocks, and go his merry way.

Well, you should be justified in taking a bottle of whiteout and blotting out the rest of the story.

The keeper and his household made the physical effort (the horror!!) to listen to Paul speak unto them the word. The lashed and beaten preachers promptly went to the ‘unnecessary’ physical effort to physically baptise those folks.

Do you REALLY love the Lord and his word? Acts 2:38.......Is it from heaven or of men?


24 posted on 11/19/2010 8:11:28 PM PST by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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To: wmfights

I know the answer to this but I’m going to ask you. If you die and are not baptized with water, can you still go to heaven?


25 posted on 11/19/2010 8:11:44 PM PST by fish hawk (w)
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To: Benchim

**John 3:16. That’s it.**

That’s the Lord’s condensed summary of what he had detailed in the previous verses in that chapter.

He said, “Except a MAN must be BORN of WATER, and of the SPIRIT, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God”.

Details, details, who’s worried about details? /sar


26 posted on 11/19/2010 8:22:22 PM PST by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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To: Doulos1

**Simple, Romans 10:9,10.
Next question.**

Do you realize that the book of Romans was written to people that were already born again? See Romans 1:6,7


27 posted on 11/19/2010 8:25:57 PM PST by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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To: Persevero
Because we see the thief on the cross being told he’ll be in heaven with Jesus without baptism, we assume that if you are willing to be baptized but the actual baptism doesn’t happen, it’s still good. That’s not the same as refusing baptism.

The Baptism of the Thief on the cross is the same Baptism which saves us. It is not a Baptism done by man but rather from Christ Himself. What did John The Baptist say about Christ and how He would Baptize us? That is the Baptism of salvation. Yet Christ physically Baptized no man by water. It happens to all who receive Him as Lord and Savior the very moment of surrender to Him.

The Baptism that saves us is the Spiritual Baptism of Jesus Christ by Jesus Christ Himself from which we also recieve The Holy Spirit. The Baptism of man meaning submersion in water comes afterward at some point in time. In some persons lives mans Baptism is the same day. In others it comes a week later, a month later, or years later. In others due to medical limitations it may never happen at all.

28 posted on 11/19/2010 8:29:32 PM PST by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: fish hawk; Persevero
The biggest mistake Christians make today is by not dividing the Word.

Amen, dear fish hawk!

Peter and the 11 were instructed by Christ to begin their commission in Jerusalem before taking the Kindgom message to all nations. ANd that is where they stayed, waiting for Israel as a nation to accept Christ as their King, whereby He would return and the Kingdom promises would begin. But Israel as a nation kept rejecting the now-risen King, first at Pentecost, then the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7. It was apparent that Israel was becoming more obstinate in accepting their King. It was looking like a lost cause. And until Israel did repent and accept Him as their Messiah, Peter and the 11 were bound to stay there, in Jerusalem. Until something completely unexpected to everyone happened in Acts 9. Paul was saved. And received revelations directly from the risen Christ, face to face and mouth to mouth. A new commission was given to him. The gospel of the uncircumcision. It was not the same gospel that the 12 operated under, their gospel was the gospel of the kingdom. Paul's gospel to the uncircumcision was the gospel of the grace of God. These two gospels overlap somewhat between Acts 9, when Paul is saved and given his ministry, and Acts 28 when Israel as a nation is finally set aside,(temporarily), and spiritually blinded until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. Up until Acts 28, at any time that the nation Israel had repented and accepted Christ as their King, their Messiah, He would have returned. But by the end of Acts it was clear that their eyes were closed, their ears were not listening, and their hearts were hardened.

The Book of Acts is a transition period, between a kingdom of believers (the Jews) with the Gospel of the Kingdom; and a body of believers (Gentiles and believing Jews) with the Gospel of the grace of God.

This is why one gospel speaks of repentance, baptism, works, etc. and another gospel speaks of no works, salvation being the free gift of God, etc.

WIthout rightly dividing the word of truth, everything, especially in Acts seems a mishmash of contradiction. It isn't when you realize what was happening. The dispensation of the law was coming to an end and the dispensation of the grace of God, given to Paul, was beginning.

29 posted on 11/19/2010 8:47:56 PM PST by smvoice (Defending the Indefensible: The Pride of a Pawn.)
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To: doc1019
WOW, talk about a mixed message. Here is someone reaching out for clarification.

How much clearer does it need to be for you?

God is real. Religion is man-made; and therefore is corrupt, deceitful, and in some cases, downright evil.

30 posted on 11/19/2010 8:54:49 PM PST by meadsjn (Sarah 2012, or sooner)
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To: Zuriel

Yes, I do know that it was written to the the believers in the area of Rome. What is your point? If you cannot read Romans chapter nine and then read chapter ten and not get the context of what God is saying by way of Paul then I can’t help you. Maybe read it a few times. Good luck, and God bless you.


31 posted on 11/19/2010 8:57:21 PM PST by Doulos1 (Bitter Clinger Forever!)
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To: fish hawk

‘It is God Who is in you, both to will and do of His good pleasure.’ Preach it, brother! Saved by Grace through faithing in Jesus The Christ.


32 posted on 11/19/2010 9:00:11 PM PST by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: fish hawk; charlie72

Excuse me for elbowing in, but I can testify of myself and some others I am close to. If you hunger and thirst for righteousness, you shall be filled.

The thief was ‘hungry’, but under the Law. The testator had not yet died, and ‘Grace’ was not yet begun. Heb. 9:16,17

The Ethiopian eunuch was ‘hungry’ and was sent a preacher with the whole truth, and low and behold, they came across some waterhole and the rest is history.

Stop worrying (like the LDS) about others that have passed on before you; we are not the judge of the deceased anyway. Do what is right, when you see what the Lord regards as believing in him and his words. The Lord taught his disciples to preach REPENTANCE and REMISSION of SINS, BEGINNING at Jerusalem (Luke 24:47)

In that first sermon to the lost (in Jerusalem), the convicted souls asked “What shall we do?” Acts 2:37

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized EVERY ONE of you in the NAME of JESUS CHRIST for..” (for WHAT??) ..”THE REMISSION of SINS, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost”. Acts 2:38

From this point on you know what the Lord’s word says to you about receiving remission of sins. Other instances, such as in Acts chapters 8, 10, 19 mention the listeners being born again. The details of that rebirth process needed not be repeated, since you should know by now, instead of using legalism to ‘opt out’ of the essential of baptism in the name of Jesus for remission of sins.


33 posted on 11/19/2010 9:02:47 PM PST by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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To: meadsjn

Sounds like you are trying to separating God from religion. Can’t be done.


34 posted on 11/19/2010 9:03:59 PM PST by doc1019 (Martyrdom is a great thing, until it is your turn.)
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To: doc1019
Sounds like you are trying to separating God from religion. Can’t be done.

To believe that, you would have to be putting your faith in religion, and have little or no faith in God.

35 posted on 11/19/2010 9:12:13 PM PST by meadsjn (Sarah 2012, or sooner)
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To: Doulos1

**What is your point?**

That they have already been born again; they had “..obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine (Acts 2:38) that was delivered them”. Rom. 6:17

I get the context of Rom. nine and ten. Paul is testifying of the unbelief of the nation Israel, pointing out the turning of the Lord, with the offer salvation, to the Gentiles, which is why those saints in Rome were blessed to be given that hope.

**God bless you.**

Thank you, and may God bless you as well!


36 posted on 11/19/2010 9:20:56 PM PST by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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To: DouglasKC

From your self-destructive animal nature!


37 posted on 11/19/2010 9:37:18 PM PST by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: smvoice; Persevero; fish hawk

There was a major argument in the church about whether Jewish Christians were supposed to keep the law, but this argument was not about salvation. It had to do with culture & tradition.

Also, two things you are missing. 1) Peter also was shown that the Gospel was for both Jews AND Gentiles. Same message: “Jesus died for your sins”. They stayed in Jerusalem until they received the Holy Spirit. 2) When Gentiles became Christians, where did they go? To fellowship with the local Jewish Christians. THAT was the early church, not a Jewish church & a Gentile church. There was only ONE body.


38 posted on 11/19/2010 9:49:02 PM PST by Strider2
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To: Zuriel
When the Jews asked of Jesus 'what must we do to do the work God requires', what did Jesus say to them? ... Connect that request to what the Hebrews ask Moses before he went up the mountian. What were the two commandments Jesus gave that He expected of those with faith in Him? And finally, what did James proclaim for the Gentiles Paul and Silas were bringing into the kingdom?

And one more little detail: In John 3 Jesus told Nicodemus that lest 'a man' be born of water and the spirit he cannot enter the kingdom. Have you ever stopped to consider what Jesus may have been telling Nicodemus that Nicodemus replied 'How can a man enter again into his mother's womb' in response to 'ye must be born again'?

39 posted on 11/19/2010 9:50:31 PM PST by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: CynicalBear

Amen. Salvation is an event, not a process.


40 posted on 11/19/2010 9:58:24 PM PST by fortheDeclaration (When the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn (Pr.29:2))
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To: cva66snipe

Yes, baptism is by faith. But the Jesus instructs His apostles to baptize those who convert to Christ.

Mathew 28:19 “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,”

Baptism continues as people and households convert. Paul mentions baptizing people in Corinth, and mentions others who performed baptisms as well.

If the baptism were spiritual only, Paul and Crispus and the disciples and company could hardly have performed it! It is a physical baptism, with water, as described repeatedly in Scripture.

Read the portion of Acts where Peter baptizes the Ethiopian eunuch. Down into the water they go.

Baptism is not optional and is a requirement for the Christian.

“Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” Than Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. . Then those that gladly received the word were baptized, and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. And they continued steadfastly in the apostles doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers. . .”Acts 2:38 and on.

All this is done within the church body. You get baptized, you continue in the doctrine (which is recorded in the Bible,) your break bread, (taking the Lord’s Supper), you pray together, you have fellowship. . .

that’s the way it’s done. Not all out there on your lonesome.


41 posted on 11/19/2010 10:00:43 PM PST by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: wmfights

“If a sacrament imparts grace, why did Jesus get baptized?”

John the Baptist asked Jesus that, didn’t he? He said, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?”

“But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.”


42 posted on 11/19/2010 10:04:29 PM PST by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: Strider2

Please give me the scripture in Acts, before Paul is saved, that Peter said “Jesus died for your sins.” Just one.


43 posted on 11/19/2010 10:04:33 PM PST by smvoice (Defending the Indefensible: The Pride of a Pawn.)
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To: Persevero

Study up on the Jewish use of baptism.


44 posted on 11/19/2010 10:10:06 PM PST by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: MHGinTN

“Study up on the Jewish use of baptism.’

I could for interest’s sake, but, I don’t view history as authoritative. I view the Bible as authoritative, and I get my doctrinal positions from that.

So when God’s word repeatedly says we must be baptized, gives examples of baptisms to the point of even having Jesus baptized, records the baptisms of new believers and their households, and instructs His apostles and by inference other church leaders to baptize;

I get baptized!


45 posted on 11/19/2010 10:17:30 PM PST by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: Persevero

Smart move! ... But you might find the information fo special interest, esepcially in light of what some folks told Paul when he found they had begun faithing in Jesus and he asked them ‘whose Baptism’ they had received and what he subsequently did. Paul also later stated that he ‘was glad he had not baptised any’ of another group who were arguing over such things.


46 posted on 11/19/2010 10:20:30 PM PST by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: Benchim

I have been practicing a silent prayer taught by the fhu.com and widely used by our military..called coping strategies for them. It puts people on the path to salvation by being still and watching the thoughts in our minds. I had a strong spirit of love come into my room one night and warm my body and it said to me without words..”you are okay now, you have made it home” It was pure love is how I can explain it. And ever since then I have had the power to let life’s irritations and angers pass by. So I no longer need or have a desire to sin any longer. I am like a child again but with an adults maturity. I am free at last! And so full of happiness!


47 posted on 11/19/2010 10:27:45 PM PST by fabian (" And a new day will dawn for those who stand long, and the forests will echo in laughter")
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To: Strider2
There was another argument that the Gentiles coming in should or should NOT keep the law. The answer was, why hang that millstone around their neck, something that neither you nor your fathers could abide.

No where did I insinuate that keeping the law or not had anything to do with "salvation". Yes, Peter and the other Apostles did know that salvation was for Jews and Gentiles and when they both accepted Christ, they became the "church or the Body of Christ", collectively. I am missing nothing here. I don't see where anything I said goes against what you just laid out here. Maybe you are stating the obvious which I figured everyone would already know.

48 posted on 11/19/2010 10:54:49 PM PST by fish hawk (w)
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To: Persevero
Public Baptism is a part of public profession of faith which the believers should fulfill. Most churches do it within a months time after the person comes before the church. It is not however salvation. You can go under the water a condemned sinner and come up the same. Salvation can come to anyone at any time the LORD calls and we answer yes. It can be in church like it is for many or it can come at work or even fishing etc. It may even come while in a hospital bed or at a funeral service for a loved one.

But different churches place different doctrines for salvation. Some think for example to prove your salvation the Holy Spirit will give you spiritual gifts to show as proof. Some think the person has to come forward to the mourners bench weeping and confess their sins in public. Some do and some others are as calm as can be and remain silent. Some say you must feel immediate change within. Many don't feel that and change for some takes a life long process.

It was around a year or so before I got the courage as a young very shy teenager to go before the church. My salvation came about a year earlier though in private. Finally when the voice said go forward to the alter NOW I did.

IIRC {it's been over 40 years} I had to wait about maybe a month or maybe even two for church Baptism as I had to attend a church membership class first that was held several times a year.

Salvation how and when?

Luke ch 19 5When Jesus came by, he looked up at Zacchaeus and called him by name. “Zacchaeus!” he said. “Quick, come down! For I must be a guest in your home today.” 6Zacchaeus quickly climbed down and took Jesus to his house in great excitement and joy. 7But the crowds were displeased. “He has gone to be the guest of a notorious sinner,” they grumbled. 8Meanwhile, Zacchaeus stood there and said to the Lord, “I will give half my wealth to the poor, Lord, and if I have overcharged people on their taxes, I will give them back four times as much!” 9Jesus responded, “Salvation has come to this home today, for this man has shown himself to be a son of Abraham. 10And I, the Son of Man, have come to seek and save those like him who are lost.”

Water didn't save him Christ saved him.

The Great Commission you posted is true. Sad to say some legalistic have even make it complicated. For example there is one denomination {not sure which} that believes unless the preacher baptizes you using the phrase word for word "in the name of Jesus Christ" you are lost. No I'm not kidding such a person tried to convince me of this for several years. When are we saved though was the thread. We are saved the very instant we accept Christ as Lord and Savior in our hearts just as Zacchaeus and just as the thief on the cross.

49 posted on 11/19/2010 11:05:28 PM PST by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: MHGinTN

**When the Jews asked of Jesus ‘what must we do to do the work God requires’, what did Jesus say to them?**

“..believe on him..” Do you really believe on him? Do you believe on him according to their (the apostles) word (Jn 17:20)?

**Connect that request to what the Hebrews ask Moses before he went up the mountian.**

Ex. 19:8..”All that the Lord hath spoken we will do”..

That was an appropriate response to Moses words from the Lord.

**What were the two commandments Jesus gave that He expected of those with faith in Him?**

He commanded repentance and baptism. The Holy Ghost is a gift.

**And finally, what did James proclaim for the Gentiles Paul and Silas were bringing into the kingdom?**

Acts 15:20 “...That they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.” Sidenote about Silas: He hadn’t been along on the first missionary journey with Paul.

Paul and Silas left on Paul’s second missionary journey, where they preached the Word, baptizing Jew and Gentile alike.

**Have you ever stopped to consider what Jesus may have been telling Nicodemus that Nicodemus replied ‘How can a man enter again into his mother’s womb’ in response to ‘ye must be born again’?**

Nicodemas just didn’t realize that there was a whole ‘nuther way to be born. To which the Lord made it clear it wasn’t going to be a fleshly rebirth. He said, “Except a man be born of water (no comma) and of the Spirit...”. (the ‘of’ isn’t found in original manuscripts). I think people tend to read that passage as though there is a comma in there, which would lead to some confusion posssibly.

The water simply isn’t a reference to fleshly birth, or the Lord would have said something like ‘that which is water is flesh’. Matter of fact, there are not any physical births recorded in the scriptures where there is any mention of water as part of that process. Maybe, even those folks were smart enough to know that ‘water’ is a pretty inaccuate term for fluid leaking from a ruptured placenta.

You could symbolically say that Jonah was reborn from the water a new and determined preacher.
The ‘water and the Spirit’ harmonize nicely with Acts 2:38. A good example of symbolism is in 1 Cor. 10:2. “And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea”.

Here’s one I ask regularly: Acts 2:38; is it from heaven or of men?

Thank you for your inquiry. (I shouldn’t be up this late, but took a too long after supper nap.)

Any more questions?


50 posted on 11/20/2010 12:23:45 AM PST by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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