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Pope Benedict's condom U-turn
Guardian ^ | November 21st 2010 | Andrew Brown

Posted on 11/21/2010 8:09:16 AM PST by Cardhu

Pope Benedicts XVI's change of heart on condoms marks a significant break with the damage done by one of his predecessors' most romantic, wicked and wrong-headed policies. The idea of an absolute ban on condoms makes no sense even within the framework of Catholic teaching. Since the purpose of the ban on artificial birth control is to make conception possible, it makes no sense at all in situations in which conception is utterly impossible. That is why Benedict chose a male prostitute as his example of someone who might use a condom to fight disease.

The really interesting question is whether his remarks are supposed to apply even in cases where conception would be possible: may a female prostitute demand that her customers use condoms (assuming for the moment that either party takes much notice of the pope's opinions)? May a wife whose husband is infected? May a husband who has married an HIV positive woman?

It is with questions such as these that the balance lies between regarding the Catholic ban on artificial contraception as merely the romantic wrong-headedness of celibate men, or something actively misogynistic and anti-human. The matter would be simpler, of course, if the Catholic church banned all birth control. But it doesn't. It is only opposed to the effective forms.

But once it has admitted that it is sometimes all right to have sex for reasons other than procreation – and this is conceded, indeed claimed, by everyone who defends "Natural family planning", then the case for condoms as harm reduction becomes unanswerable. Indeed, until today, the question was the easiest way to make any English catholic bishop squirm. They know that their own flock uses artificial birth control. They did not enjoy pretending to believe that poor Africans should risk dying horribly...

(Excerpt) Read more at guardian.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Moral Issues
KEYWORDS: catholic; condoms; liberalspin; pope
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"Pope Benedict XVI has cautiously but decisively removed the single most stupid and wicked policy of the Catholic church,"

"I say "pretending to believe" – there must be Catholic priests who believed in that aspect of their church's teaching but I have never knowingly met one."

1 posted on 11/21/2010 8:09:18 AM PST by Cardhu
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To: Cardhu

Why would anyone be dumb enough to rely on the commie Guardian for news about Christians?


2 posted on 11/21/2010 8:11:35 AM PST by vladimir998 (This is when the anti-Catholics start to lie to cover up how they got it all wrong.)
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To: Cardhu

Yesterday this article was totally discredited.


3 posted on 11/21/2010 8:14:11 AM PST by Hulka
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To: Cardhu
Here is the excerpt from the pope's book:
Pope Benedict XVI discusses condoms and the spread of HIV [book excerpt]
4 posted on 11/21/2010 8:17:14 AM PST by mlizzy (Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee ...)
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To: Hulka; vladimir998

Whatever you say if it comforts you.

But, you all seem to be fighting a losing battle and becoming the last holdouts against sanity in the Catholic Church.


5 posted on 11/21/2010 8:22:19 AM PST by Cardhu
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To: Cardhu
The article is not factual Cardu (and the writer of it a hater of Catholic beliefs to boot) ... THIS is from the pope's book:
Meanwhile, the secular realm itself has developed the so-called ABC Theory: Abstinence-Be Faithful-Condom, where the condom is understood only as a last resort, when the other two points fail to work. This means that the sheer fixation on the condom implies a banalization of sexuality, which, after all, is precisely the dangerous source of the attitude of no longer seeing sexuality as the expression of love, but only a sort of drug that people administer to themselves ... --Pope Benedict XVI

6 posted on 11/21/2010 8:27:20 AM PST by mlizzy (Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee ...)
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To: Cardhu

The international left hates the fact that there are shades of gray in Church doctrine. After all, it does significant damage to the perpetual talking point that we Christians insist on seeing everything in black and white.

The use of condoms for contraception is intrinsically sinful according to Catholic doctrine. The usage of condoms when related to the commission of other sinful acts, however, might very well be the lesser of two evils — still sinful yet necessary to avoid causing greater harm. As my tag line says, of two evils the lesser must always be chosen.

Such does not mean that the lesser of two evils is somehow acceptable when a non-evil alternative is available, merely that it is preferable to that which is greater. The Church has never approached these questions in the black-and-white manner in which it is often portrayed.


7 posted on 11/21/2010 8:29:08 AM PST by MWS (De duobus malis, minus est semper eligendum. - Thomas á Kempis)
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To: Cardhu

You wrote:

“Whatever you say if it comforts you.”

It’s not about comfort. It’s about truth.

“But, you all seem to be fighting a losing battle and becoming the last holdouts against sanity in the Catholic Church.”

Natural Law is sanity. No person ever went morally wrong in choosing to obey God, And it wouldn’t matter if the “battle” were a losing one either. We love the Truth. Ultimate victory is already secured in Christ. Those with little faith or hope in Christ run from the battlefield. Go ahead and run. Go serve your real master. As for me and my fellow Catholics, we will serve God.


8 posted on 11/21/2010 8:32:34 AM PST by vladimir998 (This is when the anti-Catholics start to lie to cover up how they got it all wrong.)
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To: Hulka; Cardhu

But to bigots that doesn’t matter. Ever notice how the anti-Catholic bigots here seem to buy everything the leftist media gets wrong about anything Catholic? Liberals of the same feather...


9 posted on 11/21/2010 8:36:47 AM PST by vladimir998 (This is when the anti-Catholics start to lie to cover up how they got it all wrong.)
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To: mlizzy

But haven’t you yet realized mlizzy this is how the Catholic Church always changes course. Do you think that after persecuting Galileo for saying the earth is not the center of the universe they subsequently said sorry folks we were wrong.

Of course not - it would all depend on which Universe with enough wriggle room to shed their past false belief and yet not make the uneducated faithful´s heads explode.

As you point to this excerpt as proof of no change the Church could also point to the same except in a court of law to deny that they opposed condoms in all cases and therefore, as they said it was, a last resort. Where´s the prohibition?

A great defense to the charge that they are encouraging an African holocaust knowing full well that the more more educated Europeans would simply ignore such nonsense.

Now everyone in happy.


10 posted on 11/21/2010 8:55:29 AM PST by Cardhu
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To: Cardhu; PadreL; Morpheus2009; saveliberty; fabrizio; Civitas2010; Radagast the Fool; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.

11 posted on 11/21/2010 8:57:44 AM PST by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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To: Cardhu
encouraging an African holocaust ...

HIV Researcher, a Self-described Liberal, director of Harvard's AIDS Prevention Research Project, Edward C. Green, Defends Pope's Recent Condom/AIDS Statement

"There's no evidence at all that condoms have worked as a public health intervention intended to reduce HIV infections at the "level of population."

It would seem that your anti-Catholic underwear is showing.

12 posted on 11/21/2010 9:09:32 AM PST by Servant of the Cross (NPR: Air America with government funding to keep them alive)
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To: vladimir998
Natural Law is sanity. No person ever went morally wrong in choosing to obey God, And it wouldn’t matter if the “battle” were a losing one either. We love the Truth. Ultimate victory is already secured in Christ. Those with little faith or hope in Christ run from the battlefield. Go ahead and run. Go serve your real master. As for me and my fellow Catholics, we will serve God.

The Great Condom War. Yes, I remember reading about it in my Bible, one of the signs that we are in the last days...{{{sigh}}}...

It's called "standing against the wiles of the devil"; this great spiritual battle that is being waged for the very souls of men. It's a very real and powerful battle that is being fought.

And the RCC is right out front on this battle, fighting over condoms. {{{sigh}}}

What is choosing to obey God? What would God have us to do during this time of great spiritual deception and war? Take a stand on condoms?{{{{sigh}}} I don't think so..

Does the RCC really love the Truth? What does God say about the Truth during the dispensation of the Grace of GOd? It's important to Him, is it to you?

As for me and my fellow Catholics, we will serve God.

If the RCC is truly serving God during this time, then you should know what He is commanding us during this time. Do you?

13 posted on 11/21/2010 9:20:55 AM PST by smvoice (Defending the Indefensible: The Pride of a Pawn.)
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To: vladimir998
Indeed.

Demonstrably a false and misleading article, but yet, there are those that cling to it.

Truly baffling. . .

14 posted on 11/21/2010 9:24:45 AM PST by Hulka
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To: vladimir998

The more virulent anti Catholic freepers would believe any source including Satan himself as being legit when it comes to villifying the Catholic Church.


15 posted on 11/21/2010 9:33:52 AM PST by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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To: Servant of the Cross
It would seem that your anti-Catholic underwear is showing.

It seems be in fashion as I am in good company with the many bishops, priests, nuns and anyone who actually works on the front line helping the afflicted.

I can also point to studies which purport to show that the last Pope´s actions and also this one has been responsible for the spread of the AIDs scourge across Africa.

The reality is that only a very few Catholics care about what the Pope says about sexuality. Everyone has recreational sex except for the true believers on here that must have either ten children or a very frustrated wife or husband.

16 posted on 11/21/2010 9:34:36 AM PST by Cardhu
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To: Cardhu
“I say “pretending to believe” – there must be Catholic priests who believed in that aspect of their church's teaching but I have never knowingly met one.”

Well I have known scores, including all of the best-informed priests that I have known. I pity people who have only encountered priests who are too intellectually challenged to seek and absorb the proper formation, or too lazy to even bother to seek such formation. I can understand why such people would have problems with the Catholic Church because they have only met losers. Obtaining one’s understanding of Church teaching from the media is similar.

Claiming that the Pope is opening up things a bit on condom use is bizarre.

An analogous situation: A man, while drunk, decides to play Russian Roullette rather than shooting himself in the head with a fully loaded revolver. The Pope notes that the person playing Russian Roulette is not as disordered as the man attempting suicide, and the media responds by concluding that the Pope is saying that it is ok to play Russian Roulette in some situations. I can just about fathom how somebody could be dense enough to reach that conclusion, and with the media to intervene, I can understand how many people are misled. That said, do not think that Catholic teaching has been intelligently analyzed

17 posted on 11/21/2010 9:38:07 AM PST by Hieronymus (It is terrible to contemplate how few politicians are hanged. --G.K. Chesterton)
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To: smvoice

We have not ceased teaching against sexual vice, and for the sanctity of sex (virtuous, honorable sex)in marriage. Virtue and vice, goodness and evil, have a great deal to do with the spiritual battle that is being waged for the “very souls of men.”


18 posted on 11/21/2010 9:43:32 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (What does the LORD require of you, but to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God)
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To: Hulka

And what does it say that they endorse a left-wing rag like the Guardian?


19 posted on 11/21/2010 9:45:25 AM PST by B Knotts (Just another Tenther)
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To: B Knotts

Good point.


20 posted on 11/21/2010 9:50:34 AM PST by Hulka
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To: Cardhu; don-o
Condom "U-turn"? False headline. The Pope did no such thing.

For what he did say, check here:

http://piadesolenni.com/pope-oks-condoms/

He says if somebody were, say, a male prostitute, deciding to use a condom to avoid disease transmission might be seen as a step in the right direction. "BUT" (language comprehension note: "but" indicates the introduction of a contrasting or contradictory concept)....

"BUT it is not really the way to deal with the evil of HIV infection."

From the Times (UK) Online:

"The head of a Harvard-based AIDs prevention centre says the Pope is “correct” to claim that condom distribution risks aggravating the transmission of HIV.

"Last week Benedict XVI incurred the wrath of AIDs campaigners and criticism from the Governments of France and Germany for saying, en route to Africa, that AIDS could not “be overcome by the distribution of condoms.” In comments condemned as “scary” and “alienating” by members of the International Planned Parenthood Federation, Benedict XVI lauded monogamy as a way to combat the spread of AIDs. He said that condom distribution risked exaggerating the spread of the virus.

"Edward C. Green, director of the AIDS Prevention Center at the Harvard Center for Population and Development Studies said this week: “The best evidence we have supports the Pope’s comments.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5987155.ece

The Pope said nothing wrong. His mistake is assuming normal language comprehenion and/or good-faith reporting standards in the EneMedia.

(You are possibly not all that interested in a patient exposition of the truth. But there are other FReepers lurking and reading, who may find it dubious to take the Guardian ---Britain's most left-wing mass-circulation newspaper, readership 80% Labour Party voters--- and anti-Catholic propagandists as reliable sources of Catholic doctrine.)

21 posted on 11/21/2010 10:05:39 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (What does the LORD require of you, but to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God)
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To: smvoice
What is choosing to obey God?

A very good question. I encourage you to spend time in prayer and meditation on this question. It reminds me of Pilate's timeless question of Jesus ... "What is Truth"?

You appear to belittle the role of 'the condom war' as a central matter of Truth. IMHO, the horrific mess which exists in this very selfish, hedonistic and wordly culture (abortion, adultery, divorce) are the direct result, as prophetically predicted by Pope Paul VI in Humanae Vitea, of losing this "Great Condom War" in the "free-sex", "free-responsibility", "no religion too", days of the 60's.

The fact that the Catholic Church continues to engage in this war is not new nor to be ridiculed as something that God is not interested in. In fact, it is central to the very core of our human nature, our creation as "in the image of God" and our interpersonal relationships which are intended that we love each other as fellow brothers and sisters in God.

Great wisdom on this "integrated vision of the human person - body, soul, and spirit" can be found in the teachings of the Theology Of The Body

22 posted on 11/21/2010 10:15:15 AM PST by Servant of the Cross (NPR: Air America with government funding to keep them alive)
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To: Cardhu
The reality is that only a very few Catholics care about what the Pope says about sexuality.

Ergo, your position is that NO ONE should care what the Pope says about sexuality?!! Seriously?! That's the extent of your intellectual argument?

I view this question posed to Pope Benedict XVI (reminds me of the Pharisees trying to 'trip up' Jesus with silly hypothetical situations) as kind of like the following:

"If a thief is on his way to rob a bank, when he parks the getaway car, should he put money in the parking meter".

If the Pope answers 'yes, he should put money in the meter', the lib press rushes out the headline ... "POPE BENEDICT XVI SUPPORTS BANK ROBBERY!"

23 posted on 11/21/2010 10:29:49 AM PST by Servant of the Cross (NPR: Air America with government funding to keep them alive)
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To: Hieronymus; Cardhu
I like your comment very much, Hieronymus. I placed a post on Free Republic from Fr. John Hardon on the Blessed Sacrament, and in it he states:
I really believe that many, if not most, Catholics do not fully realize that Jesus Christ in the Blessed Sacrament is God become man.
Now without understanding the power from the Blessed Sacrament by Catholics, nothing else down the line would make any sense to them either, and they become poor disciples of Christ. But, good/great Catholics DO (or DID) exist, Cardhu, and you'll find them in the Lives of the Saints, daily-Mass church pews, lines at Confession, in Adoration Chapels, etc. Here are just a few links to great Catholics:

Fr. Mark Kirby
Courageous Priest
Fr. John A. Hardon archives

24 posted on 11/21/2010 10:32:20 AM PST by mlizzy (Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee ...)
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To: Servant of the Cross

In fact, it is central to the very core of our human nature, our creation as “in the image of God” and our interpersonal relationships which are intended that we love each other as fellow brothers and sisters in God.

Chastity and reserving sexual relationships solely for marriage is something that any real Christian should be standing for, if you profess Christianity, you should be every bit concerned with chastity as a truth to be defended.

As for the “condom war’ I would agree that this is rediculous. Personally, I believe that sex to someone who is not your spouse is wrong, regardless of whether contraceptives are used. Condom use is often associated with sex outside of marriage, too, and honestly, promiscuity is not infinitely safe, either.


25 posted on 11/21/2010 10:40:25 AM PST by Morpheus2009
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To: smvoice
What would God have us to do during this time of great spiritual deception and war? Take a stand on condoms?{{{{sigh}}} I don't think so..
A poster gave you the link to Humanae Vitae, smvoice, and I would like to second that as being an extraordinary encyclical for you to read. It is spot on.
26 posted on 11/21/2010 10:50:08 AM PST by mlizzy (Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee ...)
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Comment #27 Removed by Moderator

To: Cardhu
Benny said that maybe it was a good idea for gay men to wear condoms because of HIV.

Homosexual sex has nothing to do with procreation. It is a meaningless activity biologically.

28 posted on 11/21/2010 11:09:08 AM PST by E. Pluribus Unum (The people who hate Sarah Palin hate her because they know that her Presidency is inevitable.)
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To: MWS

“The Church has never approached these questions in the black-and-white manner in which it is often portrayed.”

As Vladimir Ilyich Lenin said, “Accuse others of what you do.” It is the God-haters who are mono-dimensional.


29 posted on 11/21/2010 11:10:26 AM PST by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
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To: Cardhu

“as I explained in my post #10.”

You haven’t explained anything, ever. All you ever do is babble lunatic nonsense that anyone possessed of good sense ignores.


30 posted on 11/21/2010 11:13:44 AM PST by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
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To: dsc

Obviously read it to pass judgement so by you own admission you do not have good sense.

Don’t be too hard on yourself you are in good company.


31 posted on 11/21/2010 11:22:30 AM PST by Cardhu
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To: Cardhu

Well of course, we all come here to defend MSM lies.

The Guardian is quite wrong about what Pope Benedict actually said.


32 posted on 11/21/2010 11:24:35 AM PST by BenKenobi (Don’t worry about being effective. Just concentrate on being faithful to the truth.)
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To: Cardhu

If condoms were the panacea against AIDS why is it that north Africa which doesn’t have many condoms have an infection rate an order of magnitude less?


33 posted on 11/21/2010 11:25:54 AM PST by BenKenobi (Don’t worry about being effective. Just concentrate on being faithful to the truth.)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
"Benny said that maybe it was a good idea for gay men to wear condoms because of HIV"

The English translation was "male prostitutes" but the Italian translation in Observatório Romano was "prostitutes."

Anyway, it is a good idea for the ladies to protect themselves even if El Papa disapproves.

34 posted on 11/21/2010 11:32:23 AM PST by Cardhu
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To: BenKenobi

North Africa is has a much greater exchange of population with Europe thus such aids are more readily available.

Travel in Southern Spain and see the hundreds of cars loaded to the axles carrying everything including water as the make for the Ferry across the Straits.

Sub Saharan Africa is peopled, by and large, by poorer, less educated and more isolated citizens which have been engaged in almost constant wars for fifty years, that could be a possible explanation.


35 posted on 11/21/2010 11:42:58 AM PST by Cardhu
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To: BenKenobi

That is what these threads are for to sound off and try and express your own take on the information you are given.


36 posted on 11/21/2010 11:45:24 AM PST by Cardhu
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To: Cardhu; All

Here’s what the Pope said that LMSM left out:

“But it is not the proper way to deal with the horror of HIV infection.”

The Pope did NOT change his mind.

Next, will LMSM try to say he changed his mind on abortion? I would not put it past them.


37 posted on 11/21/2010 11:49:55 AM PST by Sun (Pray that God sends us good leaders. Please say a prayer now.)
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To: Sun

Is the use of condoms still a ‘sin’ or just the “last resort”?


38 posted on 11/21/2010 11:52:06 AM PST by Cardhu
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To: Cardhu
Anyway, it is a good idea for the ladies to protect themselves even if El Papa disapproves.

The use of contraceptive by married couples is prohibited by Catholic dogma.

People participating in hedonistic, sexual self-pleasure aren't really Catholics anyway, so none of the teachings of the Church apply to them.

Why can't people who don't believe in or practice Catholicism join some other church that celebrates their behavior?

Why can't they be honest about who they are an what they believe?

Why do they insist on "remaining" in the Church, and demand that the Church change?

Why not create a Church of the Holy Condom, if they are so wonderful?

39 posted on 11/21/2010 12:11:51 PM PST by E. Pluribus Unum (The people who hate Sarah Palin hate her because they know that her Presidency is inevitable.)
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To: Cardhu; All
Anyway, it is a good idea for the ladies to protect themselves even if El Papa disapproves.

I vote for this as the MORONIC post of the day.

If they do not listen to the Pope regarding chastity and choose to prostitute themselves WHY would you think they listen to the Pope regarding condom use?

GET A CLUE. No one has to "obey" the Pope... Carry the discussion one step further and one sees why this issue is even discussed -it is but a leftist attack on Church teaching that useful idiots for the left join in on...

YOU are about as intellectually "elite" as my *ss -you leftist tool...

40 posted on 11/21/2010 1:04:52 PM PST by DBeers (†)
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To: mlizzy

Thanks for the compliment.

I found your link to Fr. Kirby very interesting. How does Tulsa manage to get all the best stuff? Two good monastic foundations and a Bishop who will celebrate ad orientem (not that I should complain—my pastor decided to try ad orientem when we had an FSSP priest visiting about a year and a half ago, and after four days he was hooked).

Actually, I suppose that the answer is that grace builds upon grace, so a good relationship between Bishop Slattery and Fontgombault snowballs.


41 posted on 11/21/2010 1:28:41 PM PST by Hieronymus (It is terrible to contemplate how few politicians are hanged. --G.K. Chesterton)
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To: Cardhu

What are you saying? Please expand.


42 posted on 11/21/2010 1:36:04 PM PST by AliVeritas (Pray. For all the latest, check out: http://directorblue.blogspot.com/)
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To: Cardhu
The really interesting question is whether his remarks are supposed to apply even in cases where conception would be possible: may a female prostitute demand that her customers use condoms (assuming for the moment that either party takes much notice of the pope's opinions)? May a wife whose husband is infected? May a husband who has married an HIV positive woman?

These are my questions as a practicing Catholic woman. Particularly the question about a female prostitute asking male customers to use condoms. Why is it okay for a male prostitute to use condoms (or the lesser of two evils) than it is for a female prostitute to ask her johns to use condoms? Because conception is possible? Even when AIDS is present? I guess this means that it would be better to bring an AIDS infected child mothered by a prostitute into the world than for the prostitute to ask the father to use a condom. This will be hard to accept for some.
43 posted on 11/21/2010 2:50:02 PM PST by malkee (Actually I'm an ex-smoker--more than four years now-- But I think about it every day.)
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To: mlizzy

There may be a basis in the case of some individuals, as perhaps when a male prostitute uses a condom, where this can be a first step in the direction of a moralization, a first assumption of responsibility, on the way toward recovering an awareness that not everything is allowed and that one cannot do whatever one wants.


44 posted on 11/21/2010 3:37:43 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Servant of the Cross; mlizzy
While a beautiful response, Servant, it fails to answer the question, in this dispensation of the grace of God, as to "choosing to obey God". What does 'obeying God' mean today? It can be answered by what obeying God is NOT today:

"For I bear them record that they have a ZEAL of God, but according TO KNOWLEDGE.

For being ignorant of GOD'S RIGHTEOUSNESS, and going about to ESTABLISH THEIR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, have NOT SUBMITTED themselves unto the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD.

For Christ IS THE END OF THE LAW FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS to every one that BELIEVETH." Rom. 10:3,4.

The doctrines of DO's and DON'Ts does not bring man and God closer. They put a wall of works for righteousness between man and God.

"But OF HIM are ye IN Christ Jesus, who of God is MADE UNTO US wisdom, and RIGHTEOUSNESS, and SANCTIFICATION, and REDEMPTION." 1 Cor. 1:30.

Do's and Don'ts do not provide righteousness before God. Being IN CHRIST is the only righteousness He recognizes. Being IN CHRIST means believing and accepting the FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST as our salvation. "That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." 1 Cor. 1:31. You want to glory about "we do this" or "we would never do that"? The only people you are impressing are those who think their works of righteousness is impressing God.

So, what does God entreat us to do for Him during this time of "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast". (Eph. 2:8,9). ?

It's very simple. So simple that it is a stumblingblock to those who cannot believe the TRUTH of God's word.

"For the love of Christ constraineth us: because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then all were dead.

And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Wherefore HENCEFORTH know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

THEREFORE if any man be IN CHRIST, he IS A NEW CREATURE: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

And all things are of God, WHO HATH RECONCILED US TO HIMSELF BY JESUS CHRIST, and hath GIVEN TO US THE MINISTRY OF RECONCILIATION:

TO WIT, that GOD WAS IN CHRIST, RECONCILING THE WORLD UNTO HIMSELF, NOT IMPUTING THEIR TRESPASSES UNTO THEM: and hath COMMITTED UNTO US THE WORD OF RECONCILIATION.

NOW THEN we are AMBASSADORS FOR CHRIST, as though God did beseech you by us; we PRAY YOU IN GOD'S STEAD, BE YE RECONCILED TO GOD.

FOR HE HATH MADE HIM TO BE SIN FOR US, WHO KNEW NO SIN; THAT WE MIGHT BE THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD IN HIM." 2 Cor. 5:14-21.

THIS is what is "choosing to obey God" today, during this time of grace and reconciliation, is. It is NOT do's and don'ts. It is NOT condoms are no condoms. It IS the Gospel of the Grace of God, given freely, by Him, for our reconciliation.

45 posted on 11/21/2010 4:18:14 PM PST by smvoice (Defending the Indefensible: The Pride of a Pawn.)
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To: Cardhu
change of heart on condoms marks a significant break with the damage done by one of his predecessors' most romantic, wicked and wrong-headed policies.

This is idiotic. All he said was what Catholic moral theologians have said for years. There is no "change of heart" involved.

And the Guardian is still a worthless commie rag.

46 posted on 11/21/2010 4:18:30 PM PST by Campion
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To: Cardhu
the last holdouts against sanity in the Catholic Church

LOL. The Catholic Church is the last holdout against the world's insanity.

47 posted on 11/21/2010 4:19:39 PM PST by Campion
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To: smvoice
THIS is what is "choosing to obey God" today, during this time of grace and reconciliation, is. It is NOT do's and don'ts.

REALLY? You mean now it's okay to take Christ's members and make them members of a prostitute? Someone ought to tell St. Paul!

Stop and think for a second, smvoice. If your antinomian take on Christianity is really made any sense, then where do you get off telling Catholics that they are wrong? If someone thinks salvation comes through eating papaya yogurt, isn't telling them that they are wrong just setting up another law they have to obey?

If natural law is opposed to the Gospel, then using condoms isn't wrong, but neither is adultery, homosexual acts, idolatry, or any other sin you care to name. Follow your position through to its logical conclusion. If law goes out the window, all of it goes.

And incidentally, as far as the act itself is concerned, intercourse with a condom is morally indistinguishable from homosexual sodomy or masturbation. None of the three are the life-giving one-flesh act which God has ordained and approved within the bounds of matrimony.

One more thing. NO Christian denomination had anything good to say about artificial contraception before the Anglican Lambeth conference began the mass apostasy of Christendom in 1930. No Protestant group approved of it. Not even one.

48 posted on 11/21/2010 4:31:16 PM PST by Campion
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To: Campion
You cannot even GET to the points of St. Paul unless you are saved. WHich means being IN CHRIST. Which comes about as the result of believing in the FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST. As a believer, we are saved UNTO GOOD WORKS. not saved as a RESULT OF GOOD WORKS. It's all foolishness to the unsaved.

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness: but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." 1 Cor. 1:18.

You said: One more thing. NO Christian denomination had anything good to say about artificial contraception before the Anglican Lambeth conference began the mass apostasy of Christendom in 1930. No Protestant group approved of it. Not even one.

Arguing about the clouds when the rising water is neck-level. Arguments of spiritual blindness.

Paul's Epistles are exactly where one who thinks they are impressing God needs to be. Especially Romans and Ephesians. Or a person can stay in denial, insisting that God is keeping a big scorecard. Follow your position through to its logical conclusion. You cannot possibly score enough DO's or DON'Ts to outdo Christ's FINISHED WORK FOR YOU.

49 posted on 11/21/2010 4:52:51 PM PST by smvoice (Defending the Indefensible: The Pride of a Pawn.)
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To: Hieronymus

Welcome! I half expect Fr. Kirby to start levitating soon, so keep a check on him.:) His blog is frequently updated, always spell checked, tidy and organized with awesome images. And he’s absolutely on fire spiritually *all* the time. Spends a great deal of time in front of the Blessed Sacrament ...


50 posted on 11/21/2010 5:37:58 PM PST by mlizzy (Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee ...)
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