it's easy to tell right from wrong, the right way is always the hard way...
Posted on 11/21/2010 9:20:27 AM PST by SeanG200
Apologist, lawyer and theologian John Warwick Montgomery references this choice in a quick blurb about the existence of evil and a good God:
"Opponents of theism have perennially argued that the natural and moral evils in the universe make the idea of an omnipotent and perfectly good God irrational. But if subjectivity (and its correlative, freewill) must be presupposed on the level of human action, and if God’s character as fully transcendent divine Subject serves to make human volition meaningful, then the existence of freewill in itself provides a legitimate explanation of evil. To create personalities without genuine freewill would not have been to create persons at all; and freewill means the genuine possibility of wrong decision, i.e., the creation of evil by God’s creatures (whether wide ranging natural and moral evil by fallen angels or limited chaos on earth by fallen mankind)...."
(Excerpt) Read more at religiopoliticaltalk.com ...
Not long ago I found my mind asking a series of questions while in quiet contemplation. First, before the universe of space and time and energy (matter is condensed energy), there was only God, right? When there was only God, there could not have been any evil, right? So how is it that God brought evil into existence since He has no evil in Him? Now for the fun part: The universe is expanding away from the initial point of creation, dissipating space and time as it were: Is this fundamental characteristic the origin of evil? Since all that is has been created by His Word, even satan and his demonic minions were initially created, so is there something about the way the universe is dissipating in order to manifest the characteristics which allowed we humans to have a place to be that generates a counter, expressed as ‘yin and yang’ in oriental philosophy? And since we humans have been given the ability to choose good over evil, right over wrong, His Love and WIll for us over our own pridefulness, are we in fact progressing along already created lines of ‘force’ expressed first in the creation of a universe and all that is in it which must dissipate, divide and re-express by the action of the will of those agents able to discern right and wrong?
it's easy to tell right from wrong, the right way is always the hard way...
“and freewill means the genuine possibility of wrong decision,”
That’s not true. I, for instance, have never maid any misteaks.
Ah, but you can grill them or fry them or ... well, you get the jist ... see, anyone can do it!
Evil seems to originate within the mind of Man. While there is abundant evidence for God in the universe, there is absolutely no evidence of evil - or Satan - until humans begin to abstract information from their environment. As far as can be determined Earth is the only place in the universe where evil exists, and indeed thrives.
If you choose to ignore the Bible teaching, I suppose the ‘human’ perspective is as you’ve characterized it.
But then, from whence do you derive a definition or even a rationale for ‘evil’?
Do what?
I love Kirt.. there is no good news unless there is bad news.
As I indicated, I believe that God allowed evil to come forth from the human mind as it developed to abstract information from its environment. As nurture advanced so did its opposite. Yet only the human being can summon evil forth. An animal might be vicious, yet that comes through a survival mechanism or has been so taught or conditioned (as again by a human directing it´s own malevolence through the animal). Otherwise non-human activity might be characterized as violent, but cannot be evil. Only human will - as implanted by God - makes it so.
Interesting approach, but I don’t accept your premise. Whether satan predates the Garden or not, it was satan, the evil one, who lied to Eve. If lying by a non-human is not sourced in evil, well then God’s anture would also include the penchant for lying, and that is ocntradictory to what He gave Moses on the mountain.
Interesting approach, but I don’t accept your premise. Whether satan predates the Garden or not, it was satan, the evil one, who lied to Eve. If lying by a non-human is not sourced in evil, well then God’s nature would also include a penchant for lying, and that is contradictory to what He gave Moses on the mountain. Satan is called the father of lies, a murderer from the start. Is satan human? Not according to the Bible teachings.
I should state that I´m a Torah believer. So even though I have great admiration for Jesus as a moshiach claimant, and think that the US could not have been founded without his influence, I nonetheless have no fealty toward the NT but for imagery and sometimes the fine flow of the narrative.
Thus in Torah, there is no sense of Satan specifically. It´s the ¨serpent¨ who tempts Eve. Or I believe it´s God Himself.
¨If I knew God I´d be Him.¨But why dispatch another to discern if the human mind will choose Good or Evil which is clearly God´s main concern with regard to humanity?
It´s also this strong sense of monotheism that goes to the very core of my belief in God.
¨Sh´ma Yisrael: Adonai elohenu; Adonai echad.¨
¨Hear O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is One.¨
All Good to You and Yours....
You quoted the Shema. Since you are a Torah follower exclusively, let me ask you this about the Hebrew used therein... maybe you can help. (I have never asked this of a Jewish person and would be very interested.) The following is a paper I did on the Trinity:
This is probably thee most known verse to the religious Jew. It comes from Deuteronomy 6:4, and simply reads: “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!” (NKJV). I will come back to this verse, but I want to throw the proverbial cog into this statement. In Isaiah 6:8 we find the prophet Isaiah was commissioned to his ministry by non-other than God. Isaiah heard God say, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?” Likewise in Genesis we find man being made in the image of God, but God specifically states, “in our image… in our likeness.”
So what about this Shema then? Doesn’t this verse in Deuteronomy make it plain and simple that the concept of the Trinity is the invention of man? It would seem that way, but lets pick this verse apart a little more, and then we’ll move on. This verse may seem to contradict the doctrine of the Trinity, but in fact, it does exactly the opposite. The word “one” used to express this fundamental doctrine is the Hebrew word “ehad,” [or, echad – “compound unity; united one] which means not one in isolation but one in unity. The word “stresses unity while recognizing diversity within the oneness.” James Montgomery Boice tells us that “It is never used in the Hebrew Bible of a stark singular entity.” As a good example of its use, the Bible says that in God’s plan for interpersonal relationships within marriage, “A man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh,” a statement which could hardly mean that they become one person. Okay, now that I sparked some interest in this matter (hopefully), I will move on.
The Lord be with you also, my FRiend.
Pax vobiscum
I´m not a Jew, though talit wrapped in synagogue you wouldn´t know it. But I do appreciate the compliment. Thanks.
I see Judaism as monotheistic but not monolithic. The ¨shekinah¨, or the indwelling presence of God in some senses even reflects the ¨feminine¨ aspects the Creator. And Deuteronomy 4:19 & Malachi 1:11 point out the universality of God and that all roads point in a way to heaven, absenting licentiousness or human sacrifice.
Akiva, who was roughly contemporaneous with Jesus taught, that which is injurious to you do not onto others, and added that was the whole of The Law, ¨Now go and study.¨
Torah and a healthy interest in science form essentially my whole religious, and life´s outlook.
It´s a fabulous universe!
Everything Good....
“Torah and a healthy interest in science form essentially my whole religious, and life´s outlook.
It´s a fabulous universe!
Everything Good....”
Please tell me you’re joking. The world and the universe are horrible!
Think about what you’re asking. For 2000 years or more Jewish commentators, who have written thousands of contradictory books and insights, sometimes almost violently disagreeing, these have conspired to hide obvious meanings in a phrase that Jews have uttered *while they were being murdered by Christians* for not converting to Christianity. Do you think this is a realistic thing to contend?
To you. God wants me here. That recognition alone is fantastic!
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