Skip to comments.Praise God for 5 point Calvinism
Posted on 11/21/2010 7:43:56 PM PST by bibletruth
Praise God for 5 point Calvinism
Jesus Christ affirms TULIP in the Scriptures. Hey, Catholics, these are all in your Old Testament Scriptures (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John).
I for one perform evangelism to many whom need salvation. Read the following verses carefully :
Mark 7:20-23; Matthew 7:17
John 6:44; Matthew 6:65; Mark 4:10-13; Matthew 11:27
John 10:11, 10:26; Matthew 25:32
Matthew 4:19-20, 9:9
John 6:38-40, 10:27-28
The last one is also known as Once Saved Always Saved. ONCE SAVED - ALWAYS SAVED. It is IMPOSSIBLE for believers like me to lose my salvation - no man, Pope, Priest, no one can Anathema me - that notion is false doctrine of demons.
If Unconditional Election is true why did Jesus say “”Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.” (Mark 16:15)? I they are already predestined to be elected, what difference does it make whether we go or not? Why preach the Gospel? They will be saved regardless. No one who is not saved will be saved if they are not foreordained as the elect.
BTW: I’m not Catholic.
interesting concept. “limited atonement” . Is that like a little pregnant? http://antinomianism-salvation.blogspot.com/
If you seek it, you can't find it.
If you find it, you can't get it.
If you get it, you can't lose it.
If you lose it, you never had it.
Sorry, but it makes about as much sense as Obama's economic policies....
Both Calvinists and Armenians use the scripture to prove their positions and have good points. Personally, I think they are both true, it is our small minds that say it is one or the other. Maybe that’s the easy way out.
Furthermore, the exact order of the books (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) are specified in Zechariah, if someone cares to study Zechariah carefully. Zechariah is proof that the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John; are the continuation of the Old Testament, that is why I call them part of the Old Testament.
Now to you question:
Israel was elected in the Old Testament. The Church, the Body of Christ, Colossians 1:18, [not Catholic] is predestined and elected:
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will
As believers, we preach the Grace of God to everyone who will listen, warning them of Hell and the Lake of Fire and eternal damnation. We preach because God has made us Ambassadors for Christ. Individually, we may not know who is elected; but for the love of Christ and the Father of all glory, we preach and warn and exhort all to hear the message of grace for salvation. This is not counter to Unconditional Election. I hope this helps.
The Bible teaches both.
It is the blind who refuse to see there is more than just one side of the ages old predestination/ free will argument.
Only Calvinists' scriptures prove their positions. Armenians distort scriptures to prove their position, which is not Biblical. I have many Calvin and Calvinist books with solid scripture proof for TULIP; and their writing destroy's the Armenians' distortion of scriptures.
Mark 7:20-23; Matthew 7:17 “
“20And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. 21For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”
“17So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. “
OK, neither passage shows total depravity. Total depravity postulates that man is so evil that God must select him for salvation, cause him to be born again, give him the Holy Spirit, and only THEN can a man repent. It claims man cannot believe unless God gives the faith to him, although saving faith is never described as a gift in the scripture.
Those verses don’t in any way show total depravity. In fact, Jesus said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.” Sick, not dead. Jesus also described us as blind and lost, not dead and unable to repent - which may be why Mark starts with, “Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, 15and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
Would you like me to continue with the rest?
that would be impossible.
“Armenians distort scriptures to prove their position, which is not Biblical.”
Pot, kettle. BTW, Armenians live near Turkey. Pet peeve of mine, no offense intended.
I’m an Arminian, but I actually believe some truth is beyond our understanding, which is why God gave us scripture and not a systematic theology text.
I appreciate what you say, bibletruth, and I’m as hard core a Calvinist as you will find. But... is this kind of hitting people over the head with the doctrines of grace?
“And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.” Acts 13:48
“...just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself according to the good pleasure of His will.” Eph. 3:4,5
“And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.”
**these are all in your Old Testament Scriptures (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John).**
Old Testament Scripture?
Even I know better than that. LOL!
Why preach the Gospel?
Why did our LORD have to call Lazarus out from the grave? Since he was dead, Lazarus would not have heard anything and it would seem foolish to those who witnessed this spectacle for Jesus to be calling out to a dead man. Lazarus was so dead that he smelled of rot and decay; Martha believed all hope was so lost. The simple words of life our LORD spoke "Lazarus come forth" and Lazarus irresistably came from the tomb still bound in his grave clothes. John 11:40 tells us why this took place "Did I not say to you that if you would believe you wold see the glory of God" and that is why we preach the Gospel to those who show all signs of being dead - stinking of the rot and decay of their spiritual lifelessness.
Like Lazarus, he had to be made alive before he could hear the words of our LORD. Jesus didn't stop off at every tomb and every funeral and raise all within from death even though we all know that He could just as easily done that, and yet no one here is critical about our LORD choosing Lazarus and passing by the rest. No one here is calling God a monster for choosing whom He would reveal His glory through. Yet the Free Willers take every opportunity to ridicule and declare foolish God's means of revealing His glory through salvation.
1 Cor 1:21-22 "For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe."
And that is why those of us who have been made alive in Christ preach the Gospel to those who are spiritually dead. You may call this method of God's "foolish" and you may mock it, yet for those of us who have been sanctified into the knowledge of His truth rejoice in that while He could have passed us all by, he stopped by, made us spiritually alive, called us from our tomb, and clothed us, not in our grave clothes, but in His robes of righteousness.
Proverbs 3:5ff is not a verse that overrides the clear teachings of Christ Jesus and our teacher the Holy Spirit in the Epistles. It is incorrect usage of Proverbs 3:5ff to be invoked in order to override other clear teachings in the New Testament. Besides, Proverbs was written to the Jews for a completely purpose in which everybody today understands Proverbs. One day I will post those truths for all to see once my book is complete.
If Christ teaches us in Ephesians 1:4 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world...". Then we are not to utilize or invoke Proverbs 3:5ff to override these clear teachings.
For the record, I in no way believe the I chose God, He chose me.......................
You DO realize that ‘dead’ is only one of the words used to describe our separation from God? Bind, sick, children, slaves & others indicate that some response is possible without being born again first. In fact, life follows belief in scripture.
Well said... I ping
For the record, scripture teaches us we have choice in responding to God.
Election in the New Testament is corporate, not individual - just as it was in the Old Testament. IN CHRIST, we are chosen to become like Jesus. IN ADAM, we merit death.
It isn’t theology, but this pamphlet on tribal society ought to be read by theologians:
The failure to understand the writings of a tribal people (the Jews) has led to misunderstandings about predestination.
Salvation is an ongoing process throughout our lives. It is a life-long struggle...
As this verse, mentioned earlier, tells us:
“Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.” Phil 2:12.
Even St. Paul admitted that he could lose his salvation:
“...but I chastise my body and bring it into subjection, lest perhaps after preaching to others I myself should be rejected.”
Then there is Rom 11:22, “See, then, the goodness and the severity of GOD: His severity towards those who have fallen, but the goodness of GOD towards you if you abide in His goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.”
“...but he who has persevered to the end will be saved.” Matt 10:22, 24:13
Notice that these verses do not say that we are saved but that we will be saved...future tense. What does “persevered” mean? Why should anyone have to worry about perseverance if they are already saved?
Sorry but you are not believing the right stuff. No one taught what you believe up until Calvin showed up.
Please contunue to study His word with an open mind and heart.
It is very dangerous to say that you have some special insight into His truth.
I will not argue this point further.
Peace to you and love.
Wow, it’s a good thing that Calvin came along about 1,500 years AFTER Christ had instituted the Catholic Church. That way, all of us can be saved.......wait a second, Joseph Smith came along 200 or so years later and he said that he, and no one else had the answers.....How can we make up our minds, do we choose Jesus, Luther, Calvin, Zwingley, Henry VIII, or joseph Smith?????I’m so confused
Both Calvinists and Armenians use the scripture to prove their positions and have good points.
Arminians (Armenians are citizens of the Armenia), do not have Scripture to back their claims, those claims are gratuitously asserted, poorly supported and their opposition to the Doctrines of Grace are greatly demagogued.
Personally, I think they are both true
That might be a fashionable sentiment scoring Diversity and Tolerance points with your friends, but it is not possible for mutually exclusive ideas to co-exist in the same place and context. Its kind of like straddling the fence on the Crevo arguments by claiming to be be an "Evolutionary Creationist". You can't bridge antithetical ideas without appearing clueless and devoid of sense to everyone.
it is our small minds that say it is one or the other. Maybe thats the easy way out
And insulting two thousand years of devout theologians and the true Saints of God by claiming that they all have "small minds" while you stand above us all because you have a "big mind" for allegedly "thinking both are true".
I submit that the Bible is a closed book to you and you understand neither monergistic or synergistic descriptions of soteriology.
With God, all things are possible?
Christ instituted the church, not the Catholic Church with the Bishop of Rome as Vicar. The Vicar of Christ is the Holy Spirit.
“16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.” - 2 Tim 3
All. Not just Paul’s writings.
Calvin reiterated the words of Augustine and the Apostle Paul. God’s Word does not change.
We will just have to respectfully disagree.
Enough of the man-centered, theological back-slapping already!
Interesting way to express it. Makes sense to me.
Impossible? Sort of like the three that make up the trinity that makes up one God - maybe?
But I have to tell you, there is so much expended on this particular argument, I have to wonder what category Christ would have to say about those spending so much time on this instead of time on justice, mercy, and faithfulness.
Reading Matthew 23:23 gives me a bit of a clue, "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spicesmint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the lawjustice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former."
Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Matthew 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Matthew 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Matthew 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Matthew 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Matthew 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
Matthew 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Matthew 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Matthew 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Matthew 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Matthew 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Matthew 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Nope. Calvinism goes more like this:
If it doesnt seek you, you wont seek it.
If you do seek it, it is already seeking you.
If you find it, you get to keep it.
If you have it, it will transform your life.
If you dont have it, you wont care that you dont have it, until its too late.
Makes sense all right, but mainly because that’s what the Bible teaches.
Put me down for three and a half points please....
Im an Arminian, but I actually believe some truth is beyond our understanding,
1 Corinthians 2:14 may help to explain why you feel that Truth is beyond YOUR understanding.
The logical conclusion of your soteriology demands that you believe in a false God and thus are not saved.
The Scriptures plainly state that all have sinned, are spiritually dead, doesn't seeks after God or righteousness, that the natural man hates God, hates righteousness, loves his sin, can't understand the Scriptures, thinks its foolish, is blinded by both God and Satan to the truth, and would prefer to be crushed by rocks than bow their knee to the LORD. Yet the Arminian says despite John 1:13 that by his own power and will he overcame all of that and boldly declares through that sentiment that the Scriptures are a lie.
I don't consider the Scriptures lies, and thus it is impossible for the unregenerate to come to Christ because they hate Christ. Now if the Arminian claims to love Jesus, then we have a problem because the Bible says that the Arminian can't love God because he is too busy hating God. So that only leaves us with (1) the Arminian is lying about this love, or (2) what is far more likely is that the Free Will Enthusiast has crafted in his mind a Jesus that he can love, who is not offensive, and who does not make uncomfortable demands of repentance and obedience from him.
I bet, under this scenario, if we compared your Jesus with the Scriptures we would not find the same Jesus.
There is also another distinct possibility.
Despite ignorance you have first been regenerated by the Spirit, and because your eyes have been opened to the Truth you naturally have come to believe as Scriptures promised. Yet as of now you have not been sanctified to understand that it was God's Grace, not your own imagined virtue that overcame the enmity. In which case, the Paraclete has promised to sanctify all into perfection, which I imagine will include you finally understanding the true source of your salvation, and all then I can predict for you is that in the near future, you too will embrace the Doctrines of Grace awkwardly described through the mneumonic TULIP.
Honestly, I believe that is the way most of us have come to saving knowledge of our LORD. Born a Pharisee, Saved as an Arminian, Sanctified into Calvinism. For all we know you are at stage two.
Why wait? Why resist the inevitable? Calvinists are on duty now to handle your inquiry.
Christ instituted the church, not the Catholic Church with the Bishop of Rome as Vicar. The Vicar of Christ is the Holy Spirit.
you can believe that all you want, it changes nothing. The church that Christ instituted, on the apostles is the Catholic church....it was called Catholic very early in its’ history....no denomination (notice I didn’t say other denomination) can even come close to claiming the foundation by Christ. I have no idea why protestants protest so much....Christ founded 1 church, not 20,000 or so denominations....just 1. It was man who decided that he could not live up to the expectations of the true church.....no divorce and remarriage, Confession, the presence of the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus in the eucharist. The Catholic church is not an easy organization to belong to.....you have to believe everything that Jesus taught, and you can’t pick and choose which tenets you wish to believe. We don’t believe that the church has the authority to ordain women, we believe marriage is between one man and one woman....forever, abortion is the taking of a human life....and MANY protestant denominations don’t.....very sad
Wow, its a good thing that Calvin came along about 1,500 years AFTER Christ had instituted the Catholic Church.
Rome didn't listen to Augustine or Thomas Aquinas.
But you have far larger problems than something coming along "1,500 years AFTER", because you have this silly thing call "Holy Tradition" that can make regular course changes and modifications to doctrine and historical fact, and the mechanism allows you folks to emend the Scripture to your liking even today, not just five hundred years ago.
.....How can we make up our minds, do we choose Jesus, Luther, Calvin, Zwingley
What rubbish. What did our LORD teach that was overriden or contradicted by Luther, Calvin or Zwingley?
On the other hand there are websites devoted to exposing the myriad of deviancies that Rome has made against the recorded words of our LORD.
Yes they are both true. That is one of the beautiful
things about Scripture, that we can hear and see with our heart which leads to understanding through the Holy Spirit.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- History is full of Gnostic's who had secret knowledge of God, who knew the "truth".
So what is your point? To just ignore the Bible and act in a WWJD mode 24/7? Wouldn't that be insulting to God that because some heretics decided to pervert the Word that all of Christondom just abandoned knowing anything?
Some day folks will realize how profound that one simple passage in 1 Corinthians is (2:14). It says that the Holy Spirit will teach us Truth - but one must first be regenerated. Your gnostics weren't regenerated, they were reprobate and easy to spot, and thus easy to ignore. Trust me, I never fell for anything Joseph Smith uttered either.
Good to see you reveal so early your contempt for the work of the Paraclete.
That's not fair when you consider that He will turn around and judge these people
Wow that takes hutzpah to judge God's ethics and morality. I hope there is no lightning storm nearby.
So how uncomfortable are you regarding Israel, who also was chosen by God according to His own Pleasure, not by anything meritorious of Abraham's seed. Explain God's Fairness in choosing them but not the other nations.
Jacob I loved, Esau I hated.
The Gospels aren’t in any Old Testament I’ve ever read.
Well, get out the ‘white out’ and look through the gospels, and the epistles (you remember, those letters written to souls that were ALREADY born again), and blot out the little word ‘if’ where it happens to kill the tulips like 2-4-D herbicide.
I don't want to be labeled Calvinist or Arminian. Rather, I want to be biblical through and through and give every text its due proportion, no matter where it falls.I think I agree with that more than anything else I read on the issue.
Rational process requires the ability to apply the law of non-contradiction. God has not asked us to abandon rationality, but to honor the limits to speculation set by Scripture. Unlike the Trinity, The election question is framed as an either-or proposition, similar to Jesus formulation “You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.” Some have postulated a mutual choosing, using foreknowledge as God’s tool for figuring out who to choose, but that actually ends up negating God’s active role in choosing, subjugating it to man’s free will. So, it acts like a binary exclusion, even when you try to hold it in suspense.
The difference with the Trinity is that the tensions between the Three and the One are created by passages which explicitly set up those symmetrical tensions. Whereas the election passages tend to be asymmetrical, focusing strongly on God’s role as the independent initiator and man’s role as the dependent responder.
As for whether we should be concerned with the fine points of the doctrine of salvation, I would say that would depend on 1) whether God included it in Scripture for our instruction (he did), and 2) whether we can keep the right perspective about all that he gave us to know (we have a hard time with that, I agree). So yes, justice, mercy, and truth are key, and the pinnacle is brotherly love. But what accomplishes that? All that God gave us to know, including those hard humiliating doctrines like election and depravity that make us realize Gods great mercy toward us. Once rightly understood, such truth is hardly the basis for wasting time with trite argumentation, but rather becomes the compulsion of love to accept our brothers and love our enemies because we have nothing on them in the eyes of God.
Please don’t use John 10 to support limited atonement. That is NOT what the context is saying.