Shroud of Turin

http://shadowsofhistory.wordpress.com/2010/11/24/shroud-of-turin/ ^

[truthfinder9]

The authenticity Shroud of Turin has been the most debated of Christian relics in history. Many believe this is the burial shroud of Jesus. Some dismiss it out of hand because of their religious or philosophical beliefs about God. Some Protestants are wary of they perceive as a “Catholic” relic. But what if it is real? What if it is an authentic archaeological piece?

[TheBattman]

Your reply ignores human nature. There are already those who worship the Shroud.

[vladimir998]

None of the sources you mention are actually contemporary.

I have no doubts that they MIGHT be based on information that was contemporary, but they are not contemporary.

First, it is true that Thallus wrote 20 years after the resurrection but we have never seen the originals or even an early copy. All we have are much, much later quotations from his work and they may be spurious. The evidence is so frought with difficulties. I don’t usually cite an atheist website, but in this case the quality of evidence demands it: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/jacoby.html

And Thallus mentioned darkness, not Christ.

[Bamanot]

I’m on your side, but ease up on the ad-hominems of a lesser brother. It is not what you say, but how you are saying it that may be at issue here.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“I’m on your side, but ease up on the ad-hominems of a lesser brother. It is not what you say, but how you are saying it that may be at issue here.”

Are there contemporary Roman records of Christ?

No.

That was the issue. That is the truth. There are no contemporary Roman records of Christ. None.

If someone is going to tell me it is arrogance to know and say the truth, then I don’t see why I should not point out the obvious arrogance or wounded pride of that statement. That is no more ad-hominem then what was said to me - in fact it is obviously less so. And I think calling a man a “lesser brother” may be more ad hominem than anything I said.

[maryz]

The famous carbon dating has been widely discredited

I wish I remembered the details, but I do recall reading that carbon dating is not much use on fabrics, maybe especially linen.

[.45MAN]

Well what “if” it’s real. We will never have positive proof——That’s GOD’S sence of humor— We have to have faith and HE smiles.............

[flowerplough]

“Other more rigourous dating has placed the cloth into Christ’s time.”

Article title, link, etc? And if, over the centuries, parts of the cloth that have been handled hundreds of times, repaired and exposed to fire and water, and it has been displayed, exposed, and handled in the surprisingly recent past, how can any tests on any part of the sheet tell anything?

[Bamanot]

The National Geographic special "The Face of Jesus" gives an in-depth rebuttal of that test -- sample was taken from a patched portion of the relic, after fire damage.

That special is a superb defense of the shroud.

I know, I know, you might say ..."Can anything but that which is anti-Christian come out of the National Geographic?" In this case, yes.

[Swordmaker]

Another thing. I remember reading years ago, and I don’t know whether it is true or not, that tests had shown that the man shown in the Shroud had been alive when buried.

A skeptic book claimed that without attribution, but every forensic pathologist who has examined the image on the shroud is in agreement that it is of a dead man.

[Swordmaker]

I wish I remembered the details, but I do recall reading that carbon dating is not much use on fabrics, maybe especially linen.

Carbon dating works on anything that has organically grown carbon as it's base including cloth or linen. The problem with the dating of the Shroud was in the sampling... The used a sample that turned out to be a mixture of original Shroud material and sixteenth century patch interwoven by a technique called "French Invisible Reweaving," used to repair valuable tapestries in the sixteenth century, resulting in a spurious thirteenth century false dating. This has been proved by three different peer reviewed studies.

[mamelukesabre]

If God were to allow such evidence of Christ’ resurrection to remain through the centuries it would be no accident
~~~

A shroud is no such evidence.

[chesley]

thanks for the info

[Bellflower]

The LORD Himself has shown me otherwise.

[Bellflower]

For you to say they are meaningless must be less than true. Things in this physical world can hold meaning. Do you feel happy to come home to your physical house or to your parents house on Thanksgiving? Do you appreciate the wonder of His majestic creation? Do you cherish anything that is physical? The LORD made us to cherish and take care of things. Not to worship them but to appreciate the gifts He gives. What greater physical thing is there to be appreciated than a reminder of His death and resurrection that bought us by His suffering deliverance from eternal damnation?

[mamelukesabre]

You are a crackpot. the shroud has nothing to do with anything the lord showed you. My religion doesn’t use totems. I don’t know what religion you practice.

[Bellflower]

A living one.

[mamelukesabre]

Physical things are not important.

[Bellflower]

Then why does the Bible say that God gives all things to enjoy? Also that the heavens declare the glory of God. The heavens are physical. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And many, many other verses if you look. The Bible itself is physical ink on physical paper. If you did not look at the ink with the fact that the physical can pertain to the Spiritual through the meaning in the symbols therein it would be meaningless. Jesus Himself is The Word made flesh. He lived in the physical world, died in it and then rose physically from the dead.

Granted we are to live with our eyes upon the city not built with hands and seek the Kingdom of God first but than all these things will be added onto us. We are to be thankful for our food and all that God provides for us. I do not shut my heart off to The LORD revealing Himself to me in a myriad of ways that I am thankful for. Ultimately our bodies will even be redeemed, not replaced but changed in a twinkling of an eye from that which is corrupted to that which is immortal. Praise The LORD for He makes all things new and He is above all, and through all, and in us all.

I hope for you an opening of your heart to appreciate all that The LORD has created for us to enjoy and thrive on by His grace even in this corrupted world that once was perfect and shall be again. Without the grace of all His provisions for us we would have all ceased to exist long ago.

Ecc 3:11 He hath made every [thing] beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

1Cr 15:39 All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, [and] another of birds.

1Cr 15:40 [There are] also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another.

[Running On Empty]

“You are a crackpot”.

That’s an ad hominum if I ever saw one.

[Running On Empty]

“Physical things are not important.”

Clarify, please.