Free Republic
Browse · Search
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Does One Have to Obey the Disobedient Bishops?
The Eponymous Flower ^ | 11/25/2010 | Tancred

Posted on 11/25/2010 11:35:13 PM PST by 0beron

"On the practical level it is often the case that the appeal of Papal instructions are not used by the pastor locally."

Should You Obey the Pope More than the Bishops? ( "How should pastors acquit themselves, when -- as it is mostly -- universal Church and particular-legal regulations contradict one another?"

Fr. Hendrick Jolie (46) asked this question in an interview for the most recent edition of the Catholic monthly 'Kirchliche Umschau'.

(Excerpt) Read more at ...

TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Religion & Politics; Worship
KEYWORDS: consecration; germany; missal; obedience

1 posted on 11/25/2010 11:35:16 PM PST by 0beron
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: 0beron

“It is better to obey God than man.”
I am not catholic, but in all kindness, I watch the catholic threads and wonder at all the words, directives, and etc. and there is never a word about what God has said on the subject. No comparing what a man of the church has said with what God has said in His Word.
When I’m confused by what I hear in church, I look to see what God has said. When I don’t understand what I read in the Bible, I look to see where the same thing is said in other parts of the Bible. Men change their opinions, or get confused, etc. God is unchanging and the source of absolute truth.

2 posted on 11/26/2010 3:12:59 AM PST by WestwardHo (Whom the gods would destroy, they first drive mad.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: 0beron

I think a bigger question the faithful might have is whether the Eucharist they have received ever since the NO consecration was started has somehow been “invalidated” by the incorrect words of consecration? If not, then the words are not important. If yes, then the question is raised how come the Church doesn’t know what the correct words are after 2,000 years of practice, and if they do know, why did they introduce incorrect words?

3 posted on 11/26/2010 4:00:23 AM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: kosta50
I am not an expert, but I don't think the exact wording is crucial to Consecration Validity.
Here is why: In a posting here on FR, an Eastern Rite priest pointed out that the words of Consecration are different from the Roman Latin Rite, but is still considered valid by all.
I remember reading an article several years ago, that it is not the exact wording that is important (even though they must be approved for the relevant rite), but the intention of the Priest AND the validity of the Apostolic Succession of his ordination.
4 posted on 11/26/2010 5:30:51 AM PST by J Edgar
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: J Edgar

That’s a good supposition, but these Bishops in Germany have been told what the Pope wants to do with respect to the words of consecration and they’re not doing it.

Seriously, they shouldn’t expect German citizens to pay their church tax or do other things they want.

My humble suggestion to Germans would be to find an SSPX or other Traditional Chapel and ministry to support and leave the official German Church so you don’t have to pay a Church tax to these people.

They deserve to be driven out of business by the fact that they can’t even be obedient to the simplest of commands, and God bless Father Jolie for his efforts and humility.

5 posted on 11/26/2010 7:49:45 AM PST by 0beron
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: WestwardHo
While that has a certain appeal, it may miss one question about how we know what God says and a related question about ecclesiology.

(1) Protestants generally share the same Bible. But there are covenantal, dispensationalist, reform, Arminian, and other divisions which are also divided by thinking about, for instance, believer's v. infant baptism. So the question arises: if reasonable and prayerful people of good will can read the same text and derive, all with plausible arguments, differing opinions which can't all be right, then how is one to know whose opinion to believe?

I don't want to make too much of the differences, but I don't want to minimize them either.

(2)There seems to be an implicit ecclesiology which posits a weak Church, and/or weak protection of that Church by God. The Church is seen as a group of men fatally dominated by sin and error. Opposed to that is a strong Church/strong protection thinking which takes into mind question #1 and proposes that God protects the Church from error in teaching about faith and morals, even though the men through whom this is done are, like St. Peter, very often not very good men.

In a way, question #1 is inescapable. The same problem can arise with “words, directives, and etc.” from the various official teaching organs of the Church. But when the problems get fierce one can usually get a clarification.

BUT if one takes the “strong Church/strong protection” view the opposition between “all the words, directives, and etc.” and “what God has said on the subject” is evanescent.

It does seem clear that “what God has said on the subject”of teaching is “some [NOT “all”] teachers”. So the problem is which ones are the teachers, and which are not?

6 posted on 11/26/2010 8:15:36 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Mad Dawg; WestwardHo; 0beron

The really short answer to the headline: no.
This is not due to any personal feelings or theological argument but instead is implicit in the very nature of authority. Imagine for a moment that you are private Joe Snuffy, under the command of Lieutenant Joe Smith, under the command of Captain Joe Brown; Capt. Brown issues an order stating that no-one under his command may forbid anyone access to their religious texts, however, Ly. Smith and his platoon are attached to another unit and deploying to Iraqghanistan and Lt. Smith doesn’t want to upset the locals so he orders his troops to leave their bibles behind, that order is not valid precisely because it is contrary to the orders of his superior authority.

Now as to the differences in doctrine (whether or not infant baptism is valid or not), while I think it is good & desirable to have correct understanding, I have to admit that a lot of the ‘schisms’ would become irrelevant if everybody involved in them were to follow the Great Commandment: to love God with all one’s heart, all one’s mind, and all one’s strength. The last being of particular interest: if we *were* loving God with all our strength we wouldn’t have the energy to expend on the things that don’t really matter, would we?

7 posted on 11/26/2010 8:38:22 AM PST by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: 0beron
"Should You Obey the Pope More than the Bishops?" I suggest that the faithful always remember that the floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops...then decide whom to obey.
8 posted on 11/26/2010 8:49:02 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Mad Dawg

“It’s not the things I don’t understand in the Bible that bothers me, it’s the things I do understand that bothers me.” I put it in quotes because it’s not mine. I heard it years ago, and I’m sure if it’s bothers, worries, scares, troubles...
I’m an old woman. I’m very ordinary. I’ve survived broken bones, some health problems, marital problems, children troubles, heartache,
First of all, over thirty years ago, when I was the worst sort of sinner, and most deserving of God’s wrath, He made Himself real to me. It took several years after that for me to get a genuine glimps of God’s love for me. He softened my heart, and quietly I said, “Lord, I am yours, you get the whole thing.”
My prayer has been that I would be as earnest in loving God as I was earnest in seeking sin.
If you read the first few verses of Eph 2, that’s me! Dead in my trespasses and sins, walking according to the course of this world..... But God!!! Being rich in mercy made me alive in Christ.
OK, I understood that part, but then it say, “And raised us up, and seated us in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus.”
My prayer has been, Lord, I get the sin part, the grace part, but what does it mean to be “raised and seated in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus?”
Well, I live in Psalm 25 “To Thee, O Lord, I lift up my soul. O my God, in Thee I trust, (and skipping to verse 4)
Make me know Thy ways, O Lord; Teach me Thy paths. Lead me in Thy truth and teach me, for Thou are the God of my salvation; For Thee I wait all the day.”
I love the “Make me’s” of the Bible! O, Lord subdue my sinful, willful ways! (That’s extra.)
No man, no church, no commentary can answer these questions for me. Only God can show me those Heavenly places. Only God can see me seated in Heaven already, because I am seated IN Christ. He is already in Heaven and He is waiting for me!
God answers the requests of Psalm 25 for me, in my circumstances. They are His ways, His path, His truth, His teaching.
Being old, there are prayers I don’t see the answer to, yet.
No one but God can teach me to wait the way He wants me to.
There has never been a question I have taken to the Lord that He has not given the answer. Not in that moment, but He will answer.
When I have exhausted my prayer, like Moses, “Lord, show me Thy glory!” When I have exhausted the wonder of Ephesians 2.
When I have exhausted Psalm 25. When God runs out of answers.....
The only question that really demands an answer is, “What think ye of Christ?” To that you must have an answer. Your soul depends on it. The rest is gravy.
My youngest son has been into homosexuality for about 10 years. It been a long hard thing. Over time, it has called into question everything I thought I knew about God. I began asking myself, “Do I only know things about Christ, or do I really love Him with my WHOLE heart. Do I love Him for himself?” I say this very carefully, I am learning to argue God’s character and His promises. I am extremely careful how I ask my questions of God. These are questions I would never put to another human. And I would never trust the answer from anyone but God. I stagger at His willingness and ability to answer me.

9 posted on 11/26/2010 9:34:38 AM PST by WestwardHo (Whom the gods would destroy, they first drive mad.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: WestwardHo

Well, you may be ordinary, but you ain’t stupid.

There should be no question that the Bible is an immense gift, and that it’s useful not only for all the thing Paul said to Timothy but also for spiritual guidance and solace.

A regular reading of the Psalms is a big part of my life, and I find apt phrases and thoughts popping into my head sometimes just once and sometimes as a “theme” for a year of more. “He has shown me the wonders of His love in a besieged city,” has been with me for about 18 months as a fine description of the life of a Christian in these times — or for a man getting older when his body feels like it’s under siege and parts of it are crumbling before the onslaught.

And though maybe many don’t think of it this way, the Rosary can be for Catholics a fine meditation on Scriptural themes. Today before Mass we will be thinking and praying about Jesus in Gethsemane the night he was handed over; His scourging; the crowning with thorns; his carrying his cross; and his crucifixion and death — good themes at any time and especially for a Friday.

And for us the Mass, of course, is a great gift. I am sure it looks peculiar “from the outside” so to speak, but the sequence of Word, Prayer, and Communion provides an opportunity, in the company of other Christians, for a real encounter with Christ and His Love.

I am so heartened to read how God has, so to speak, brought you up and helped you to grow in Him. It’s a heck of a ride, isn’t it?

10 posted on 11/26/2010 10:09:05 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: J Edgar

I think you make a good point, which brings up the issue of how are the “correct” words established for a given Rite. It seems that in order to be binding to all, it would have to be a decision approved by all bishops of a given Rite.

11 posted on 11/26/2010 11:50:11 AM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794 is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson