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Catholic Apologetics Question on Intersession (Vanity)
11/26/2010 | Jafojeff

Posted on 11/26/2010 5:25:45 AM PST by jafojeffsurf

“Catholic Caucus”

I am stating to learn some Catholic Apologetics and wanted to get some thoughts on a point I have not seen made so far in my learning’s. I know there are some very learned Catholics out there and wanted to get your perspectives on this.

To Minister can have several meanings: A servant; a subordinate; an officer or assistant of inferior rank; hence, an agent, an instrument. Definition source: http://onlinedictionary.datasegment.com/word/minister

Matthew 4:11 “Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.” The very next verse 4:12 “Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;”

Cannot an assumption be made that the Angles informed Jesus of Johns predicament? Would this not be intersession? As I understand our faith angles / saints have specific areas of responsibility (patron saints) and their prayers of intercessions do not go unheard by the Lord. Would not then this text be further proof of that belief?

I know in past discussion on this forum other faiths have issues of the dead praying for intersession, yet I find this a good example of how heavenly hosts can intercede on our behalf.

I’d like to get some other Catholic perspective on this scripture interpretation.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Ecumenism; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: angels; angles; catholic; intercessions; saints

1 posted on 11/26/2010 5:25:48 AM PST by jafojeffsurf
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To: narses; NYer

Ping


2 posted on 11/26/2010 5:27:41 AM PST by jafojeffsurf ( Return to the Constitution.)
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To: jafojeffsurf

Wow just wow, So Jesus needed an intercessor?


3 posted on 11/26/2010 5:52:06 AM PST by pburgh01
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To: pburgh01

So if the angles were not informing Jesus, What is it you would say they were doing? Teaching him the scripture?

Your sarcasm has no weight. Back it up with some logic please.


4 posted on 11/26/2010 5:56:37 AM PST by jafojeffsurf ( Return to the Constitution.)
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To: jafojeffsurf

His point I think is that Jesus was also God. He didn’t need anyone to tell him about John.

And the Bible says nothing about anyone pleading on John’s behalf. Don’t read into Scripture what isn’t there.....


5 posted on 11/26/2010 6:02:20 AM PST by txzman (Jer 23:29)
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To: txzman

I do not believe I am adding stuff. “Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison”, So where did he hear it from? the line before it was the angles ministering right? So you tell me is it not safe to assume the two are related considering they are in conjunction with each other. If not they where did Jesus hear from?


6 posted on 11/26/2010 6:09:40 AM PST by jafojeffsurf ( Return to the Constitution.)
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To: jafojeffsurf

Sounds like it was common knowledge. Could have heard it in the market place.
Interceding indicates a go-between making an argument, or a plea. Simply hearing that “something” has happened is simply that, hearing something.


7 posted on 11/26/2010 6:22:37 AM PST by WestwardHo (Whom the gods would destroy, they first drive mad.)
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To: txzman; pburgh01

Answered part of my own question, Angels ministering and the message John was in prison. These are not related in time. They are separate.

However the question is still open on what were they ministering. A Minister reports back to the leader and represents them IE intersession.


8 posted on 11/26/2010 6:26:20 AM PST by jafojeffsurf ( Return to the Constitution.)
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To: jafojeffsurf

My suggestion is to click on the religion forum moderator’s name to see the rules for the religion forum. Something labeled as a “Catholic Caucus” or “Reformed Caucus” has specific rules, and is normally denoted in the actual thread title on FR. Good luck!

Freegards


9 posted on 11/26/2010 6:32:00 AM PST by Ransomed
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To: jafojeffsurf

Is this a serious question? Even if I were to accept your premise and your tortured definition of the word intercessor and thinly veiled attempt at buttressing Marian heresy do you think Jesus needs an intercessor? Do you believe he is part of the Godhead? Do you know the three O’s of God’ nature. Read Ezekiel when it comes to Lucifer

“You were blameless in your ways from the day that you were created, until iniquity was found in you”

Did G*d need a gang of angelic snitches to tell him Lucifer’s thought process was going South fast? Of course not. There is no intercessor but Jesus the Son intercessor for us at the Judgement Seat of the Father..period. Miss that and you miss the Gospel message and frankly the whole Bible. If you need another intercessor besides Christ Jesus well to put a fine point on it you are not a Christian. Jesus is the Petros, the Rock which we base our faith on, not religions, doctrines, Popes, Saints, statues, rosaries, false signs and wonders, giant buildings, priests and bishops, Lordship Salvation, and un-Biblical repetitive pagan mutterings and prayers. Without understanding his completed works we are left grasping with questions like this, questioning His Lordship and very nature. You need to ask the Holy Spirit for an interpretation of this passage, get a Strong’s concordance, learn some Hebrew and Greek, get into a good Bible believing church and most important do your OWN study of scripture. Because ultimately it is up to us to know his word and develop a relationship with Him not for someone like me to argue you out of your position.


10 posted on 11/26/2010 6:39:42 AM PST by pburgh01
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To: pburgh01

The Catholic Church is a bible-believing church.


11 posted on 11/26/2010 6:43:37 AM PST by surroundedbyblue
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To: pburgh01

It’s possible that YOU do not take this question seriously. However, it may be important to the OP.

The poster intended this to be a Catholic Caucus thread, as noted in the top of the thread, but was not clear on the rules and failed to put it in the title. If you read the thread, you might have noted that and out of courtesy, refrained from posting on it.

But I suppose that is asking too much.


12 posted on 11/26/2010 6:46:04 AM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.)
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To: Judith Anne; pburgh01

You are right I did not do it correctly (Catholic Caucus), but it is not a big issue. I already know those who’s faith is of another denomination do not understand or want to understand intersession. The heart of Apologetics is understanding my faith and being able to explain it and not to apologies because I disagree.

The true root question has to do with the definition of the word minister and I noted “pburgh01” does not address this question but goes off in a different direction.


13 posted on 11/26/2010 6:56:37 AM PST by jafojeffsurf ( Return to the Constitution.)
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To: jafojeffsurf

Well, I didn’t mean any criticism toward you. If you don’t mind this as an open thread, no problem, let others say what they want to.

I’ve read some of your comments on other threads, and I’m impressed.


14 posted on 11/26/2010 7:00:31 AM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: jafojeffsurf
Cannot an assumption be made that the Angles informed Jesus of Johns predicament?

Sure...Or, you can assume it was Spiderman who made the intersession...The verse doesn't say he didn't...

Or perhaps John's dog, with a note tied to his collar, traveled the distance to find Jesus and inform Jesus of John's plight...

15 posted on 11/26/2010 7:12:42 AM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: jafojeffsurf
However the question is still open on what were they ministering. A Minister reports back to the leader and represents them IE intersession.

Where did you ever get that definition???

16 posted on 11/26/2010 7:15:23 AM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: pburgh01
There is no intercessor but Jesus the Son

Perhaps you should actually read the Bible, instead of having it read to you, and learn the difference between intercessor and mediator.

"I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men:" 1 Timothy 2:1

"For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:" 1 Timothy 2:5

"Then Simon answering, said: Pray you for me to the Lord, that none of these things which you have spoken may come upon me." Acts 8:24

"Brethren, pray for us." 1 Thessalonians 5:25

"Therefore we also, from the day that we heard it, cease not to pray for you, and to beg that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will, in all wisdom, and spiritual understanding:" 1 Colossians 1:9

et al

I'll intercede on your behalf; as I'm sure other intercessors will also, and pray to the Mediator that the veil of ignorance which covers your mind be lifted.

17 posted on 11/26/2010 7:29:16 AM PST by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: A.A. Cunningham
Perhaps you should actually read the Bible, instead of having it read to you, and learn the difference between intercessor and mediator.

You bet...That's where you learn that Mary and the dead Saints are Mediatrixes, Mediaries and Co-Reemers as espoused by your religion...Oh, you don't learn that from reading scripture??? Where then do you get it from???

That these co-Gods are also referred to as innercessionists by your religion, one has to be careful when using the word innercession...

18 posted on 11/26/2010 7:45:47 AM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Iscool

Do you pray for yourself alone? Christians pray for other, friend family, enemy’s, piece on earth. This is intersession my friend. If you do not do this then I would challenge your Christianity. If you do pray for others then then why?


19 posted on 11/26/2010 8:08:22 AM PST by jafojeffsurf ( Return to the Constitution.)
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To: jafojeffsurf

I think you are talking about angels here and not angles — like triangles, quadrangles, etc.

Remember that Jesus has fasted for forty days in the desert when he was tempted.

I’ve always thought that verse meant that the angels came and praised him and supported him much as a family might support a sick one. Or a church might ministers to one of their members who is dying by taking the spouse some food for the day.


20 posted on 11/26/2010 8:36:50 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Yep your right “angels here and not angles” angels.

Yes moral support makes some sense and fits into the traditional understanding that they fall into this meaning “A servant; a subordinate; an officer or assistant of inferior rank; hence, an agent, an instrument.”

So, would this not then be point to intersession. After all the argument from others is God/Jesus knows it all and is all powerful, yet this supports the point he lends his ear to others. In this case to strengthen him for the ordeal and the fact he was in flesh form. Or as just another open example he did to Abraham and is capable to changes his intent due to others.

Now the case could be made that in the verse with the angels they were saying supporting things vice asking for help, but it does address one concern often brought up by other denominations in that the heavenly host / the dead do not have any say with the Lord. They obvious do and to believe this interaction from the ones the Lord loves and would not support requests from them is week and blindsided when you consider the love the Lord our God has for us and them.


21 posted on 11/26/2010 9:03:09 AM PST by jafojeffsurf ( Return to the Constitution.)
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To: jafojeffsurf

Intercessory prayer asks for help. I believe the angels came too Jesus of their own accord. After all, he was the Son of Man, the Son of God.


22 posted on 11/26/2010 9:05:13 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: jafojeffsurf
This might answer some of your questions:

Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on Intercession of the Saints - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus

23 posted on 11/26/2010 9:06:43 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: jafojeffsurf
Here are some threads on prayer too. Don't know if any of them touch on intercession, though.

How do you pray?
How (and Why) of Daily Prayer
Passionate Prayer – Part Two
Passionate Prayer – Part One
Prayer the Great Means of Salvation: Ch.1: The Necessity of Prayer, Sect. 3 Invocation of the Saints
Pray Always
The Mystery and Power of Personal Prayer
The Three Ways of Attention and Prayer; Orthodox/Catholic Caucus
Lesson One in Prayer

Prayer and Suffering
Prayer, Charity and the Joy of Forgiveness (some spiritual catechesis from Cardinal Sean)
Does Prayer Work?--Research and ‘Unanswered’ Prayer
Long-Awaited Medical Study Questions the Power of Prayer
The Power of Prayer
Prayer Study: Humans Fail to Manipulate God
Study fails to show healing power of prayer
Explanation of the Prayer of Saint Michael [Father Robert J. Altier]
24-7 prayer movement spreads on college campuses
Confession for RCIA Candidates And More on the Prayer of the Faithful

24 posted on 11/26/2010 9:08:54 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: jafojeffsurf
Do you pray for yourself alone? Christians pray for other, friend family, enemy’s, piece on earth. This is intersession my friend. If you do not do this then I would challenge your Christianity. If you do pray for others then then why?

That has nothing to do with it...You are trying to push the idea that angels interceded for, apparently John, to pass along to Jesus something from John...And that, obviously, to bolster your false notion that Mary and dead Saints intercede between us and Jesus...

There's no connection between the angels ministering to Jesus and Jesus hearing about John's trouble...No connection whatsoever...

25 posted on 11/26/2010 1:17:22 PM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: surroundedbyblue; pburgh01
The Catholic Church is a bible-believing church.

Correction: The Catholic Church compiled the books that make up what we ALL accept as the Bible.

26 posted on 11/26/2010 2:10:37 PM PST by NYer ("Be kind to every person you meet. For every person is fighting a great battle." St. Ephraim)
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To: A.A. Cunningham; pburgh01
"I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men:" 1 Timothy 2:1

But then you immediately jump to 1 Timothy 2:5. You neglected to post what Paul says prior to this passage:

Before Paul's teaching about Jesus as the "one mediator," Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why? Paul addresses this in 1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ's role as mediator.

27 posted on 11/26/2010 2:16:09 PM PST by NYer ("Be kind to every person you meet. For every person is fighting a great battle." St. Ephraim)
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To: Iscool

You also do not want to look deeper into the question which was posed. Knowing you alread disagree with this is not new for we already discussed this issue in the past indirectly:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2558613/posts

So if you wish to dig deeper what are some of the common arguments to intersession from other denominations? Like why pray to a dead people they are dead. Pray to the Lord, Our savior, and no one else for that is idol worship? No man dead or alive has any power of the Lord… and so on. With these mindsets in mind are there scriptural references to support the Catholic faith. The answer is yes and learning them is my objective. What many forget is we are far from the first people to discuss these thoughts and concepts. There is 2000 years of history where these things have been discuss and much of that time was when there was one church.

The question in this post is rooted in the meaning of minister, but one of the side points has to do with saints(dead) and angels (also some saints, Michel, Gabriel…) do have the lords ear one way or another thus addressing those root comments from other denomination. Not that this one scripture (Matthew 4:11) tells all, but rather is just another point in the line to conclusion. See post #21

Our goals as Christians is and should be to seek the truth, yet look around and there are over 80,000 denominations. Does God’s standards change? Yet how many denominations have changed their core values over the years? God’s core values do not change and it is not suppose to be a cake walk, but the truth is out there we only need to seek it.

Pride is one of the seven deadly sins, humility is the inverse of pride and something Christ has taught us. Maybe a refresher in this lesson could serve many well.


28 posted on 11/26/2010 2:34:08 PM PST by jafojeffsurf ( Return to the Constitution.)
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To: NYer

Very true. My response was to an insinuation that we are not a “bible-believing” church, but you said it better than I did. Thanks!!!


29 posted on 11/26/2010 2:38:40 PM PST by surroundedbyblue
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To: jafojeffsurf
Our goals as Christians is and should be to seek the truth, yet look around and there are over 80,000 denominations. >/i>

Over 80,000 now, eh??? You guys are a trip...

Does God’s standards change? Yet how many denominations have changed their core values over the years? God’s core values do not change and it is not suppose to be a cake walk, but the truth is out there we only need to seek it.

Yes it is a cakewalk...All you have to do is turn to Jesus and make Him your Savior...

The question in this post is rooted in the meaning of minister, but one of the side points has to do with saints(dead) and angels (also some saints, Michel, Gabriel…)

Michael and Gabriel are not Saints, or saints...They are Angels...Your religion made that up and you decided to push the fallacy as some sort of truth...What's the source for that idea...It certainly didn't come from scripture...

Not that this one scripture (Matthew 4:11) tells all, but rather is just another point in the line to conclusion.

That one scripture doesn't tell anything that you want it to tell...

With these mindsets in mind are there scriptural references to support the Catholic faith. The answer is yes and learning them is my objective.

Sure...And the earth is square...And as as soon as I get the details, I'll let you know...

Pride is one of the seven deadly sins, humility is the inverse of pride and something Christ has taught us. Maybe a refresher in this lesson could serve many well.

Including yourself...You are trying to teach us that your religion is true and you haven't even studied any material to find out if that's so...

30 posted on 11/26/2010 7:29:50 PM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: NYer
Correction: The Catholic Church compiled the books that make up what we ALL accept as the Bible.

All Catholics, that is...Millions of Protestants do not accept your Catholic bible(s)...

31 posted on 11/26/2010 7:32:56 PM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Iscool
Millions of Protestants do not accept your Catholic bible(s)...

Catholic Bibles contain—and have always contained—all of the books of the Bible that have been traditionally accepted by Christians dating back to the time of Jesus. These accepted books total 46 in the Old Testament and 27 in the New Testament. Protestant Bibles, however, have seven fewer books in their Old Testament. These seven books excluded in the Protestant Bible are Baruch, Sirach, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Tobit, Judith and the Wisdom of Solomon, plus portions of Esther and Daniel. These books were rejected by Protestant Reformers in the 1500s because elements in these books did not support certain Protestant theology and doctrines. Prior to the sixteenth century, however, all Christians used Bibles containing all 46 books of the Old Testament.

During the first century, there was much debate among the early Christians as to what made up the canon of Scripture. The Church, having been given authority by Jesus Christ and under the guidance of the Holy Spirit (see The Church and the Papacy), compiled the Bible in the form that it exists today.

32 posted on 11/27/2010 7:36:08 AM PST by NYer ("Be kind to every person you meet. For every person is fighting a great battle." St. Ephraim)
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To: NYer
During the first century, there was much debate among the early Christians as to what made up the canon of Scripture.

Purely conjecture...There is no evidence that the Catholic version of the scriptures existed at this time...

The Church, having been given authority by Jesus Christ and under the guidance of the Holy Spirit (see The Church and the Papacy), compiled the Bible in the form that it exists today.

The Apostles and Disciples were not the Catholic religion regardless of what your religion claims...In fact, they warned us to reject religions that resemble yours...

And when the scriptures were mass produced into the languages of the people, your religion was and is still rejected by millions upon millions of Christians who are able to read...

33 posted on 11/27/2010 11:02:30 AM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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