Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

The Gospel for Roman Catholics
Carm.org ^ | unknown | Matt Slick

Posted on 11/30/2010 5:36:59 AM PST by kindred

This paper is written in two parts. The first explains and documents the Roman Catholic Church's position on justification. The second part presents the true gospel in contrast to the Catholic Church's position. If you want to go straight to the gospel presentation for Catholics, simply scroll down the page.

Because of the great emphasis on Sacred Tradition within the Catholic Church and because so many Roman Catholics appeal to the authority of the Roman Catholic Church, the Word of God is often placed after the Catholic Church itself in relation to authority. Because of this, many Catholics appeal to their works, in combination with the sacrifice of Christ as a means of being justified before God. The Council of Trent expresses this plainly:

"If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema." (Canon 14). Justification is the legal declaration by God upon the sinner where God declares the sinner righteous in His sight. This justification is based completely and solely on the work of Christ on the cross. We cannot earn justification or merit justification in any way. If we could, then Christ died needlessly. "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly," (Gal. 2:21). Because righteousness cannot come through the Law (through our efforts of merit), the Bible declares that we are justified before God by faith:

•"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law," (Rom. 3:28). •"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness," (Rom. 4:3). •"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness," (Rom. 4:5). •"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1). •"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God," (Eph. 2:8). However, in Roman Catholicism, justification by faith is denied.

"If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed," (Canon 12, Council of Trent). Which are we to believe? The Roman Catholic Church or God's word? Furthermore, the RCC states that justification is received not by faith, but by baptism. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says in paragraph, 1992, that "...justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith." This means that faith is not the instrument of obtaining justification; instead, it is an ordinance performed by a priest in the Roman Catholic Church.

Furthermore, baptism is only the initial grace along the road of justification. The Roman Catholic is to then maintain his position before God by his efforts.

"No one can MERIT the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can MERIT for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods," (Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC), par. 2027). The problem here is that the RCC is teaching us to "merit for ourselves and for others all the graces need to attain eternal life." You cannot merit grace. Grace is unmerited favor. Merit is, according to the CCC, par. 2006, "...the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment..." CCC 2006. This means that merit is something owed. By contrast, grace is something not owed. Therefore, the RCC is teaching contrary to God's word regarding grace and justification.

The sad result is that in Roman Catholicism, justification before God is a process that is maintained by the effort and works of the Roman Catholic. This is a very unfortunate teaching since it puts the unbearable burden of works righteousness upon the shoulders of the sinner. By contrast, the Bible teaches that justification/salvation is by faith.

•"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness," (Rom. 4:5). •"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1). •"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God," (Eph. 2:8). The Gospel for Roman Catholics The Gospel for Roman Catholics is the same as for anyone else and it is obtained by grace through faith in believing and trusting in Jesus alone, who is God in flesh, for the forgiveness of sins. Salvation is not found in a true church. Salvation is not found in being good. Salvation is not found in good works. Salvation is not found in a sincere heart. Salvation is not found in making up for past sins by efforts of restoration, or penance, or indulgences. You can never do enough to please God.

Because God is so infinitely holy and righteous, and because we are sinners, we are incapable of pleasing God by anything that we do. In fact, our righteous deeds are considered filthy rags before God (Isa. 64:6). You can do nothing to earn forgiveness or keep forgiveness. Salvation before God is not administered to us through an earthly priest in the Catholic church by the sprinkling of water, or giving of penance, or recitation of formula prayers. Salvation for the Christian is not kept through the effort of the person who hopes and tries and worries about being good enough to stay saved.

Such error can only lead to despair and hopelessness and a desperate and unwarranted dependence on the Roman Catholic Church as the only means by which salvation can be distributed and maintained. In this error, people far too often seek to work their way to heaven by being good, by doing what the Catholic church teaches them to do, by prayers to Mary, by indulgences, by the Rosary, and by a host of other man-made works. Remember, in the RCC, salvation is through the Church and its sacraments, not through Jesus alone, by faith alone. This is exactly how the cults of Mormonism and the Jehovah's Witnesses work who both teach that true salvation is found only in their church membership and in following the revelation and authority of their church teachers and traditions.

Are you tired of the works requirement? In great contrast to the position of the Roman Catholic Church, if you want to be forgiven of your sins, once and for all, then you need to come to Christ (Matt. 11:28). You need to receive Jesus as your Lord and Savior (John 1:12; Rom. 10:13). You need to ask Jesus to forgive you of your sins (John 14:14), and trust in Him alone and in nothing that you can do. Remember, your good deeds have no merit before God (Isa. 64:6). Furthermore, if you have faith, it is because that faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29). If you believe, it is because God has granted that you believe (Phil. 1:29). It is not because you were baptized, or have been good, or have been sincere. It is all of God. The Lord must receive all the glory for salvation because it completely and totally rests in Him. Salvation rests in Christ alone and it is received by faith apart from works.

Please read the following scriptures carefully.

1."for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," (Rom. 3:23). 2."For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord," (Rom. 6:23). 3."and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed," (1 Pet. 2:24). 4."He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him," (2 Cor. 5:21). 5."If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it," (John 14:14). 6."Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29"Take My yoke upon you, and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart; and you shall find rest for your souls," (Matt. 11:28-29). 7."But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name," (John 1:12). 8."I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly," (Gal. 2:21). 9."Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law," (Rom. 3:28). 10."For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness," (Rom. 4:3). 11."But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness," (Rom. 4:5). 12."These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life," (1 John 5:13). A suggested prayer This suggested prayer is not a formula, but a representation of biblical principles by which you might better understand the true gospel and receive Christ as your Lord and Savior. It is not a formula derived from Sacred Tradition or Stamped with the seal of the Roman Catholic Church's approval. Its principles are derived from scripture: we are sinners; God is Holy; we cannot earn salvation; salvation is a free gift; prayer to Christ; Jesus is the only way; receiving Christ; faith; etc.

"Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner and that I have offended you by breaking your Holy Law. I confess my sins to you Lord and ask forgiveness from you and do not ask anyone else to be forgiven of my sins against you. I acknowledge who you are, God in flesh, creator, humble Lord, who bore my sins in Your body on the cross and I come to you alone and trust you alone, by faith, that you will forgive me completely of my sins so that I will have eternal life. I ask you Lord to come into my heart, to be my Lord, to forgive me of my sins. Lord I trust in you alone, in the work of the cross alone and not in any church, not in any saint, not in Mary, not in any priest, but in you alone. Lord, Jesus, I receive you, and come to you, and ask you to forgive me and justify me by faith as I trust in you alone. Thank you. If you are a Roman Catholic and have trusted in Christ alone for the forgiveness of your sins, then welcome to the body of Christ. Welcome to salvation and the free gift of forgiveness in Jesus.

Next, I strongly recommend that you read the Bible regularly, talk to Jesus daily in prayer, and seek to find a church that teaches and focuses on Jesus as Lord, Jesus as Savior, and sticks to the Bible alone.


TOPICS: Other non-Christian
KEYWORDS: anticatholic; antichristian; belongsinreligion; yopios
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-153 next last
The time is getting short and bible believers are looking for the change (aka,translation,rapture) when the Lord Jesus Christ will descend from heaven in the air with a shout and the trump of God and the dead in Christ will rise first, then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up with them and so will we ever be with the Lord and Saviour, the blessed God Jesus Christ. If you do not go up, search the Scriptures and you may understand.
1 posted on 11/30/2010 5:37:00 AM PST by kindred
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: kindred

What makes you think that lying about someone else’s faith is a morally justifiable way to convince people of your opinions?


2 posted on 11/30/2010 5:42:49 AM PST by wideawake
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

Comment #3 Removed by Moderator

To: kindred

I stumbled across Matt Slick’s webpage many years ago. It was so early in his career that Catholic Answers had never heard of him at that point (even though they were both in San Diego at that time if I remember correctly). I called him on the phone - this is back when I honestly believed that anti-Catholics were not hateful liars but just mistaken and ignorant. We chatted for a while. He was brought up short on each and every Catholic doctrine we talked about. It was clear he had never actually studied any of the things he attacked. He knew nothing about what Catholics really believed or why. I was stunned. Now I realize that that attitude is just part of the mental illness that is anti-Catholicism.


4 posted on 11/30/2010 5:49:04 AM PST by vladimir998 (The anti-Catholic will now evade or lie. Watch.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: wideawake; kindred

Thank you wideawake. Saves me from asking the same question.

Pending a response at this time.


5 posted on 11/30/2010 5:51:17 AM PST by bronxville
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: kindred

I should add that Slick was at least very polite, cordial. I bet he’s a great guy to have a beer with. I just could never trust him because of his bigotry.


6 posted on 11/30/2010 5:51:51 AM PST by vladimir998 (The anti-Catholic will now evade or lie. Watch.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: kindred
I am a practicing Catholic and continually hear that only through Jesus are we saved. Works alone do not redeem us.
As far as the Authority of the Roman Catholic Church goes,I am reminded of Jesus's words: "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18).
7 posted on 11/30/2010 5:55:10 AM PST by guardian_of_liberty (We must bind the Government with the Chains of the Constitution...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: kindred
Justification is the legal declaration by God upon the sinner where God declares the sinner righteous in His sight.

Not even worth reading after this point. We part ways entirely here. Matt Slick believes in a God who declares sinners righteous without actually making them anything of the sort. Catholics believe in a God whose very word brings reality into existence, who justifies sinners, infuses righteousness purchased at the Cross into their souls, and makes them his adopted sons and daughters through grace.

Which one will you choose? A God who declares something righteous which isn't (making him a liar!), and leaves the sinner a "snow-covered dungheap" (according to M. Luther) ... or a God who lifts up the lowly and seats him with princes (1 Sm 2:8), a God who shares his sonship with his people by becoming their eldest brother (Rom 8:29; 1 John 3:1), a God who makes, not merely declares, his people righteous (1 John 1:9) pouring out his love within their hearts (Rom 5:5), a God who makes his people participants in his very divinity (2 Pt 1:4) through his own Body and Blood in the Eucharist (1 Cor 11:23-30).

Your choice. As for me, I would never give up the true Gospel for the unbiblical legal fiction of Protestant imputed righteousness.

8 posted on 11/30/2010 5:57:20 AM PST by Campion
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: wideawake

I only trust the Scriptures and warn the unruly as is my duty, any church member who believes that only their denomination is the way is anathema to God the Father and His Christ. I suggest that you read the book of Galatians before you forget to.


9 posted on 11/30/2010 6:01:10 AM PST by kindred (Come, Lord Jesus, rule and reign over all thine enemies from Zion, the chosen nation.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: AAABEST
A Latin talking troll. I am a bible believing Christian and a conservative and know only english and state my faith as being grounded in the Word of God (Scripture) alone and not traditions and false interpretations of Scripture. The Pharisees and Sadducee's and Herodians made that same mistake when Jesus Christ came in His first Advent.
10 posted on 11/30/2010 6:05:12 AM PST by kindred (Come, Lord Jesus, rule and reign over all thine enemies from Zion, the chosen nation.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Campion

Justified, made just in legal terms. If you break a law, frequently you can be justified in our legal system with the payment of a fine. Jesus paid our debt making us just in God’s eye.

I think you are speaking more to sanctification. Being set apart, being made more Christ like.


11 posted on 11/30/2010 6:06:56 AM PST by dangerdoc (see post #6)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: kindred
All of modern bible protestantism is built on a single pivotal lie. That is, that everywhere the bible mentions “the word of God,” or the various reformulations of that term, they can substitute “the bible,” itself.

This rhetorical sleight-of-hand is not only wrong, not only un-biblical, but scripturally disprovable by a close reading of Simeon's prayer at the dedication of Jesus.

12 posted on 11/30/2010 6:07:19 AM PST by papertyger
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: vladimir998

(He knew nothing about what Catholics really believed or why. I was stunned. Now I realize that that attitude is just part of the mental illness that is anti-Catholicism.)

The method you use above is not only a tried and true liberal democrat communist slander evil, it is also a lie.Did you ever consider that it may be you who does not understand the Words of Scripture, though you may be well versed in Roman Catholic doctrines mixed with a little Scripture teaching. The devil Lucifer uses the same tactics as the first words out of his evil mouth were “Hath God said”...


13 posted on 11/30/2010 6:10:07 AM PST by kindred (Come, Lord Jesus, rule and reign over all thine enemies from Zion, the chosen nation.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: vladimir998

(because of his bigotry.)
Words with truth are lies.


14 posted on 11/30/2010 6:12:48 AM PST by kindred (Come, Lord Jesus, rule and reign over all thine enemies from Zion, the chosen nation.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: kindred
any church member who believes that only their denomination is the way is anathema to God the Father and His Christ

And who gave you the authority to pronounce such an anathema?

I suggest that you read the book of Galatians before you forget to.

The rest of the Bible is just as much God's word as Romans and Galatians. Don't fall for the "Christianity" that tells you that Christ's teaching in the Gospels "wasn't meant for us in the Church Age". Paul was not crucified for you; Paul will not be your judge at the Last Day. Do you really want to stand before the judgement seat and tell the Lord Jesus, "I thought your words didn't apply to me, although I called myself a 'Christian'!"

15 posted on 11/30/2010 6:13:24 AM PST by Campion
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: kindred

(because of his bigotry.)
Words with truth are lies if I believe this.


16 posted on 11/30/2010 6:13:37 AM PST by kindred (Come, Lord Jesus, rule and reign over all thine enemies from Zion, the chosen nation.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: kindred
I only trust the Scriptures ...

If that were true, you would not use them like some book of magic spells.

You trust (lean to) your own understanding.

17 posted on 11/30/2010 6:14:23 AM PST by papertyger
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: dangerdoc
Justified, made just in legal terms.

Precisely. Made just, not merely declared just.

I think you are speaking more to sanctification.

They are ontologically one and the same thing. Both of them are the divine life of grace entering into our souls.

Luther wrongly decided they were different, so he could teach his false gospel of "salvation by faith alone".

18 posted on 11/30/2010 6:15:31 AM PST by Campion
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: kindred
One from Philippians that Slick and you, as his proxy, conveniently fail to mention:

"Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation." Philippians 2:12

19 posted on 11/30/2010 6:21:24 AM PST by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Campion

(And who gave you the authority to pronounce such an anathema?)

Is it anathema? Let us consider Galatians, written by divine revelation to His apostle to the gentiles, Paul.

Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) 2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia: 3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: 5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. 6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before , so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received , let him be accursed. 10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. 11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. 13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews’ religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: 14 And profited in the Jews’ religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace, 16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: 17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. 18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. 19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother. 20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold , before God , I lie not. 21 Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia; 22 And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ: 23 But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed . 24 And they glorified God in me.
and

1 Corinthians 15 (King James Version)
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received , and wherein ye stand ; 2 By which also ye are saved , if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received , how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried , and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep . 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am : and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach , and so ye believed .


20 posted on 11/30/2010 6:22:28 AM PST by kindred (Come, Lord Jesus, rule and reign over all thine enemies from Zion, the chosen nation.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: kindred

Does it bother you at all that there is no evidence of any Christian, anywhere, prior to the 15th C (Maybe) interpreting scripture the way you do?

Do you really think the scriptures require no interpretive framework and that every reader must open them as if he were a blank slate?

You appear to be part of a narrow sectarian, enlightenment interpretive cult. This same inability to examine your own presuppositions - when extended to politics results in liberalism.


21 posted on 11/30/2010 6:23:19 AM PST by Rippin
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: papertyger

Let God be true and every man a liar...


22 posted on 11/30/2010 6:24:12 AM PST by kindred (Come, Lord Jesus, rule and reign over all thine enemies from Zion, the chosen nation.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Campion

[Your choice. As for me, I would never give up the true Gospel..]

Yea, and neither will I. And there are so many Protestant denominations who are apostate also. This is the course of mankind left to his own inventions. Again, I believe the Scriptures are the Word of God and that many traditons of today are lies when scrutenized by the Word of God.
One of us is wrong, God knows.


23 posted on 11/30/2010 6:28:20 AM PST by kindred (Come, Lord Jesus, rule and reign over all thine enemies from Zion, the chosen nation.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: AAABEST

Welcome back (again).

:)


24 posted on 11/30/2010 6:28:49 AM PST by PetroniusMaximus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Campion
Luther wrongly decided they were different, so he could teach his false gospel of "salvation by faith alone declaration".

Fixed it.

25 posted on 11/30/2010 6:30:16 AM PST by papertyger
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: vladimir998

“Now I realize that that attitude is just part of the mental illness that is anti-Catholicism.”

Not everyone who disagrees with you is “mentally ill”. To insist upon it just makes your position look weaker - i.e. you feel you have to demonize your opposition.


26 posted on 11/30/2010 6:31:17 AM PST by PetroniusMaximus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: kindred

When you say you trust only the Scriptures, don’t you really mean that you trust only your interpretation of them?


27 posted on 11/30/2010 6:31:52 AM PST by bigcat00
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Campion

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved ;) 6 And hath raised us up together , and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast . 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. 11

Ephesians 2:
Wherefore remember , that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;


28 posted on 11/30/2010 6:31:52 AM PST by kindred (Come, Lord Jesus, rule and reign over all thine enemies from Zion, the chosen nation.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: kindred
This was very kind of you to post this. It's all true. All you can do is TRY to get through to Catholics. You have to understand that after years of brainwashing and reciting vain prayers to Mary and whoever they like that is a dead sinner ... it takes monumental effort to get them past that and get them THINKING. They can say the "Hail Mary" withough THINKING. It becomes a reflex action. It's just something else that you are expected to say.

What Catholics don't understand is that people don't believe they are "evil" because they "Catholic". I know of many ex and current Catholics that are wonderful people.

It's what current Catholic believe that is troublesome - such as praying TO Mary who is just another dead sinner who can't hear you anyway. NO where can you "infer" that she is without sin as the Catholic Church bangs into their head through endless recitations of "Hail Mary". It truly doesn't matter how many times you say something - repetition doesn' t make it TRUE when it is FALSE.

For the moment I'll focus on the false teaching of elevating Mary to the position of Christ or very close to it. None of this is Biblical and further revealed in Scripture clarifies this false teaching about Mary.

Mary must have been a wonderful person otherwise God would not have chosen her as the vessel to give birth to Christ. Mary was WITH sin as ANY and ALL human beings since Adam and Eve are. Mary INHERITED their sinful nature as have ALL those before her to Adam and Eve.

To say Mary is WITHOUT sin is totally unBiblcial. Let's just take that a step further -> IF any mere mortal was capable of being "without sin", then Christ would NOT have had to lead a SINLESS life, die and rise again to atone for OUR sins. The punishment of sin is DEATH.

People have NO business suggesting Mary is without sin since it DETRACTS from the glory of God and what Christ did for us on the cross. Mary is NO "co-redeemer" and does NOT share in the redemption of sin when she herself is another sinner in need of Christ too!

When something, anything detracts and doesn't give GOD the GLORY, then it is false teachings. It's all about CHRIST; not Mary. Catholics are told to pray TO MARY to get close to Jesus. we pray to Mary so that we might grow closer to Jesus. Mary was NOT the "first disciple". Mary was barely mentioned in the Bible and did NO discipleship what so ever! She was a tad goofy and couldn't figure out where Jesus was when they LEFT CHRIST at the Temple when He debated with the Rabbis there. She didn't know what Christ was doing and was looking all over for Him and angry that He started His ministry WITHOUT her no less! Mary is hardly a mortal that has omnipresence, omnipotent or omniscient! Nor is there any evidence at all in the Bible that she developed those godly attributes in heaven!

So let's see what God's WORD, not fallible man's word has to say about Christ and His role to us.

Christ a Mediator

“And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,” Hebrews 12:24 “

For there is ONE God, and ONE mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;” 1Timothy 2:5. Notice the word - ONE mediator! He is not only God, but man; not only man, but God: a blessed reconciler of man to God, and of God to man. Galatians 4:4-5.

: No where does the BIBLE state Mary is either a mediator or an intercessor. God is very clear that CHRIST is the ONLY mediator. Not Mary and there is NOTHING unclear or in need of "inferring". Using Mary in these ways DETRACTS from Christ's individual and finished work on the cross. It is CHRIST that deserves all the glory according to God.

Now, who, according to God, NOT MAN, intercedes for us? Now, who intercedes for us?

Romans 8:26 and 27

[26] Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

[27] And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

: Mary is NOT God. Mary doesn't have the attributes of omnipresence, omnipotent or being omniscient. The Holy Spirt DOES and KNOWS how to approach the Father in heaven properly for us. If you don't believe ME, argue with God.

It is GOD that is stating this and I'm a just repeating it to clarify false teachings about Mary. Yes, show your "love" and insult me or condemn me for stating what GOD states in the Bible as truth. It dosn't bother me at all.

Isn't it odd how that "truth" doesn't match up with what the Catholic Church teaches you? Yes, they will mix in LIES with truth so something else they state may be true and keep you hooked. But I ask you this, when you mix FALSE teachings, such as those with about Mary with truth, you have a mess, to put it tactfully. In a true false table, T + F = F.

29 posted on 11/30/2010 6:34:13 AM PST by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: kindred
This paper is written in two parts. The first explains and documents the Roman Catholic Church's position on justification. The second part presents the true gospel in contrast to the Catholic Church's position. If you want to go straight to the gospel presentation for Catholics, simply scroll down the page.

This is the old justification by Faith/Works argument. St. Paul in Romans 3:28 For we consider that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Whereas in St. James 2:24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

The bottom line is that these statements are compatible. Paul was railing against people who were so immersed in following the Law of Moses that they lost sight of God. People who do works for the sake of works fail.

James was saying that you cannot declare that you believe in God and then do nothing because you have been "saved" by your faith.

James 2:15-16 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?

Paul and James both support their compatible positions by quoting Abraham.

There is no issue with the position of the Catholic Church on Works vs Faith, IMO. There are issues outside of the Catholic Church usually raised by outsiders obsessed with the Church.

30 posted on 11/30/2010 6:35:45 AM PST by olezip
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Campion

“Matt Slick believes in a God who declares sinners righteous without actually making them anything of the sort. Catholics believe in a God whose very word brings reality into existence, who justifies sinners, infuses righteousness purchased at the Cross into their souls, and makes them his adopted sons and daughters through grace.”

You regularly take to task people who, in your estimation, misrepresent Catholic theology - but you are doing the very same thing here. You are misrepresenting the Evangelical theology of justification.

Life is too short to waste wrangling over misunderstandings. Wouldn’t you be better off if you had an accurate view of Evangelical theology against which you could argue?


31 posted on 11/30/2010 6:36:38 AM PST by PetroniusMaximus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: kindred
The second part presents the true gospel in contrast to the Catholic Church's position.

ROFL!!!!!

That must be a short "part" ...

Empty, actually.

32 posted on 11/30/2010 6:39:55 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: kindred
Let God be true and every man a liar...

Tell me, does the practice of the scribes and pharisees of contriving an accusation against Jesus, based on their interpretation of scripture, sound more like modern protestants, or catholics?

33 posted on 11/30/2010 6:44:25 AM PST by papertyger
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: bigcat00
[don’t you really mean that you trust only your interpretation of them?]

Pardon me, is that not exactly what you believe? Are you sure the people who taught you are Scripture believers. Because the Scriptures and many roman and protestant teaching are contrary to the Word of God and therefore are corrupt. Remember how that at the Lord Jesus first advent, so many dogmatic legalists like the Pharisees, etc. had turned the Word of God into the Word of man as the Lord Jesus warned them in His many warnings. And this just 1500 years after the Word of God given by Moses. Did not the Lord warn the Pharisees that their traditions were contrary to the Word of God given by Moses. Could it be the same today?
The Scriptures warn of such days by Paul the apostle. Search the Scriptures for in them you think you have life and they alone speak of Jesus as God the Father warned at the mount of transfiguration saying;
“This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased, hear Him.”
I do not represent protest ism any more then roman Catholicism, The word of God is truth and many who have faith in their denomination as the way will be left behind, as the Scriptures teach.

34 posted on 11/30/2010 6:44:34 AM PST by kindred (Come, Lord Jesus, rule and reign over all thine enemies from Zion, the chosen nation.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: nmh

Excellent post, you HATER /sarcasm


35 posted on 11/30/2010 6:45:41 AM PST by pburgh01
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: Campion
Don't fall for the "Christianity" that tells you that Christ's teaching in the Gospels "wasn't meant for us in the Church Age".

I don't hear this from Protestants.

36 posted on 11/30/2010 6:45:54 AM PST by Siena Dreaming
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: kindred

working diligently to be faithful by begging and pleading for God’s mercy will be of no avail?


37 posted on 11/30/2010 6:51:19 AM PST by ALPAPilot
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Campion
“Luther wrongly decided they were different, so he could teach his false gospel of “salvation by faith alone”.

Tragically for Catholics like yourself ... God must have it wrong too! God doesn't state what the Catholic Church teaches.

Rom.3:28

[28] Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom.5:1

[1] Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Christ must have had it wrong too since HIS teachings differ also from the Catholic Church. In this situation, you might be tempted to call Christ, the “liar”.

Luke 23:40-43

[40] But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

[41] And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. [42] And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

[43] And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Did Jesus LIE? The thief didn't have time for your Sacrament of Baptism, Sacrament of Communion, Last Rites etc.. No! These are all useless man made rituals to keep you from a PERSONAL and DIRECT relationship with Christ.

It is all about the HEART! That deosn't mean that you don't have Communion or Baptism when you are OLDER and have the ABILITY to MAKE THAT INDIVIDUAL DECISION, but it DOES MEAN that WORKS, such as baptism and communion etc. won't SAVE YOU! BTW, an INFANT can't make that decision. It is ALWAYS a personal decision. It is YOUR HEART that is examined to see what your MOTIVATION is. I'd bet even you know "pew warmers" in your church. Pew warmers may appear pious and noble but like others in the Bible their HEART is far from HIM too.

Matt.15:8

[8] This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

Robotic actions and motions are NOT what He seeks. He seeks YOUR HEART, just as He saw the HEART of the thief on the cross next to Him and assured him, he would be in paradise with Him. Christ doesn't lie.

I will not argue with you. I will simply point out Biblically truth and ask you to prayfully consider becoming a Christian.

38 posted on 11/30/2010 6:51:31 AM PST by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: kindred
The method you use above is not only a tried and true liberal democrat communist slander evil

Get a hold of yourself man. Your mouth sounds like a heathen.

39 posted on 11/30/2010 6:54:02 AM PST by ThomasMore (Patrick Henry and Joe Wilson...Patriots past and present!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: nmh

Amen, Mary was a chosen and saved sinner as the Gospel of Luke declares when her mouth said;
Luke 1:
46 And Mary said , My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

41And it came to pass , that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said , Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For, lo , as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. 45 And blessed is she that believed : for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord. 46 And Mary said , My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47 And it came to pass , that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said , Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For, lo , as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. 45 And blessed is she that believed : for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord. 46 And Mary said , My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold , from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed . 49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name. 50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation. 51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts. 52 He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree. 53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away . 54 He hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy; 55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever. 56 And Mary abode with her about three months,50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation. 51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts. 52 He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree. 53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away . 54 He hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy; 55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever. 56 And Mary abode with her about three months,


40 posted on 11/30/2010 6:54:02 AM PST by kindred (Come, Lord Jesus, rule and reign over all thine enemies from Zion, the chosen nation.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: kindred

Who defined that the Book of Revelation...i.e., is the Word of God?

Or the letter of James, and the Letters of John for that matter?

Awaiting your definitive answer.


41 posted on 11/30/2010 6:59:01 AM PST by ThomasMore (Patrick Henry and Joe Wilson...Patriots past and present!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: nmh

And amen. Being a bible believing Christian is the only hope we have and Christmas time is a wonderful time of year for us. The Lord bless all those who know Him in truth and in Spirit.


42 posted on 11/30/2010 7:00:04 AM PST by kindred (Come, Lord Jesus, rule and reign over all thine enemies from Zion, the chosen nation.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: Campion

If justification and sanctification are the same thing, why do they have different definitions?


43 posted on 11/30/2010 7:02:48 AM PST by dangerdoc (see post #6)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: olezip
Read this article, your interpetation is wrong and out of context when it comes to James 2:24

Fallacy of Lordship Salvation

Works Salvation is a Doctrine of Demons and Canon is crystal clear that you are saved alone by the Gift of Grace. The Gospel message couldn't be more clear and more buttressed by dozens of other Scriptural passages. There is NOTHING you can do to win or curry favor for Salvation. Works are evidence of being Saved not the act of being saved, a distinction WITH a difference. You cannot live the perfect life, you cannot give enough of your self to earn it. See the fallacy and logical conundrum you put yourself in when you accept this heresy. You revert back to OT Judaism and keeping the Law and never being sure of your Salvation and enjoying the fruits and joy of being Saved. You walk around unsure, without peace and deluded. Can a gift be conditional? Does G*d work that way? does he give and then put conditions on that gift, of course not and I know you can see that logical contradiction. You have to examine WHY you want this evil doctrine to be true, why you want G*d to notice your good works, really think on that and be honest with yourself.

God even made it even more plain for some of you....

Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

44 posted on 11/30/2010 7:03:56 AM PST by pburgh01
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: Rippin
[Does it bother you at all that there is no evidence of any Christian, anywhere, prior to the 15th C (Maybe) interpreting scripture the way you do?]

Are you sure? Because, the apostles including Paul the apostle to the gentiles believed exactly what the Scriptures say and so I believe also that the Word of God is the Scriptures and therefore any contradiction is misintrepation of Scripture. One of us is wrong for sure.

45 posted on 11/30/2010 7:05:16 AM PST by kindred (Come, Lord Jesus, rule and reign over all thine enemies from Zion, the chosen nation.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: kindred

(Are you sure the people who taught you are Scripture believers?)

I’m pretty sure they all were, and they were Protestants for whom I have a lot of respect and love. Although I believe they misinterpreted Scripture in some respects, at least some of them did not make the mistake of proclaiming that anyone who did not agree with their interpretation didn’t believe in the Bible to begin with.

If the Scriptures are as authoritatve as you say, shouldn’t there be a divinely-inspsired table of contents somewhere that says what books are supposed to be in the Bible? Where did the BIble come from to begin with? Who decided what books are supposed to be in it? Particularly, as to the New Testament? You may argue that the NT has a lot of references to Scripture, and Jesus or Paul said this or that about the Scriptures, but they could have been referring only to the Jewish Scriptures since the NT itself didn’t exist yet. So where does the Bible say what books are supposed to be in it?


46 posted on 11/30/2010 7:20:04 AM PST by bigcat00
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: kindred

(Are you sure the people who taught you are Scripture believers?)

I’m pretty sure they all were, and they were Protestants for whom I have a lot of respect and love. Although I believe they misinterpreted Scripture in some respects, at least some of them did not make the mistake of proclaiming that anyone who did not agree with their interpretation didn’t believe in the Bible to begin with.

If the Scriptures are as authoritatve as you say, shouldn’t there be a divinely-inspsired table of contents somewhere that says what books are supposed to be in the Bible? Where did the BIble come from to begin with? Who decided what books are supposed to be in it? Particularly, as to the New Testament? You may argue that the NT has a lot of references to Scripture, and Jesus or Paul said this or that about the Scriptures, but they could have been referring only to the Jewish Scriptures since the NT itself didn’t exist yet. So where does the Bible say what books are supposed to be in it?


47 posted on 11/30/2010 7:20:06 AM PST by bigcat00
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: kindred
article: This paper is written in two parts. The first explains and documents the Roman Catholic Church's position on justification. The second part presents the true gospel in contrast to the Catholic Church's position. If you want to go straight to the gospel presentation for Catholics, simply scroll down the page.

kindred: The time is getting short and bible believers are looking for the change (aka,translation,rapture) when the Lord Jesus Christ will descend from heaven in the air with a shout and the trump of God and the dead in Christ will rise first, then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up with them and so will we ever be with the Lord and Saviour, the blessed God Jesus Christ. If you do not go up, search the Scriptures and you may understand.

Ping for later

48 posted on 11/30/2010 7:30:07 AM PST by Alex Murphy ("Posting news feeds, making eyes bleed, he's hated on seven continents")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: bigcat00

Picking up a Bible and thinking you can create your own religion with it alone is like reading Grays Anatomy and thinking you’re a doctor.


49 posted on 11/30/2010 7:36:03 AM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: kindred

Logic is your friend.

Paul wrote the scriptures. No Christian interpreted his writings as you do until the 15th C.

Your response is a non-sequitur. Nobody is alleging contradictions.


50 posted on 11/30/2010 7:36:38 AM PST by Rippin
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-153 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson