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The "Professional" Christian
The "Professional Christian" ^ | December.4,2010 | Gart O'tool

Posted on 12/04/2010 11:48:54 AM PST by Benchim

The greatest con men in America are those in Ecclesia and in media that deliver a message that if you give them money ,you are" giving to God". They know that tithing is not in the New Testament and Biblical giving is in the context of the poor but the "professional " Christian has to convince you that he is God and you can give your hard earned money to him and it "like giving to God.". He will even tell you that if you :"plant a seed"( give him your money), God will send you a "hundred fold".( I once sent a zucchini seed to Mike Murdock) It is a total fraud in my opinion and is filled with motivation of self greed for the giver,

(Excerpt) Read more at antinomianism-salvation.blogspot.com ...


TOPICS: Ministry/Outreach; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: giving; salvation; snakeoil; tithe; vanity
Did you know that Christ would not pay the " Temple Tax" (Matthew 17) " 24 After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma temple tax came to Peter and asked, “Doesn’t your teacher pay the temple tax?” 25 “Yes, he does,” he replied. When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. “What do you think, Simon?” he asked. “From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes—from their own children or from others?” 26 “From others,” Peter answered. “Then the children are exempt,” Jesus said to him."

You never saw that did you? Didn't come out from your "Preacher" or TV "Minister" did it?

1 posted on 12/04/2010 11:48:58 AM PST by Benchim
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To: Benchim

Since Jesus did not come to destroy the law, but fulfill it, how do you sync your interpretation of what Jesus said with the commandment to tithe 10%?


2 posted on 12/04/2010 12:03:25 PM PST by SoConPubbie
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To: Benchim
They know that ... Biblical giving is in the context of the poor but the "professional " Christian has to convince you that he is God and you can give your hard earned money to him and it "like giving to God."

Jesus and Paul did receive remuneration for their work. Joanna, the wife of Chuza gave the Jesus and apostles support. Paul, while a tentmaker, also accepted support and, iirc, support of church workers is endorsed in Jude.

I don't believe I've changed your mind, but I suggest that others who read this search the Scriptures for themselves.

3 posted on 12/04/2010 12:04:10 PM PST by Jemian ( 'Lutzenkirchen' is a German name meaning "Touchdown Maker".)
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To: Jemian

http://www.rockycreekbaptist.org


4 posted on 12/04/2010 12:08:57 PM PST by evangmlw
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To: Benchim

There are several issues involved that need to be kept separate. First, the televangelists that persuade people to send money to THEM in order to prime the pump of God’s blessing are an abomination before God. There is a special place in Hell reserved for these televangelists. These people have no special pull with God. Only the most ignorant Christians could fall for this con game. On the other hand, supporting the ministry of those that proclaim the Gospel is in full keeping with the New Testament and the Old Testament. If you want me to provide Bible verses I will. Do no confuse the false prophets on television with those that have been properly called to preach the Gospel.


5 posted on 12/04/2010 12:18:29 PM PST by Nosterrex
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To: Benchim

Read: “Giving, Gimmick or Grace?” by R.B.Theime Jr. Ministries.


6 posted on 12/04/2010 12:19:07 PM PST by fish hawk
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To: Benchim
Here's a couple other professional christians that hoodwinked a lot of us:


7 posted on 12/04/2010 12:28:26 PM PST by who_would_fardels_bear
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To: SoConPubbie

>Since Jesus did not come to destroy the law, but fulfill it, how do you sync your interpretation of what Jesus said with the commandment to tithe 10%?

The actual words were “render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s and unto God that which is God’s.”
So, I’ll ask a simple question: what is God’s?


8 posted on 12/04/2010 12:29:04 PM PST by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: Benchim
Preachers who try to con you out of money are a mild irritant compared to the government. The former will eventually go away if you tell them no often enough or tune them out. The later will eventually squeeze you dry, throw you in prison or even kill you.
9 posted on 12/04/2010 12:50:02 PM PST by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: Benchim

Leviticus, the book of laws, commands the tithe

Lev 27:30 And all the tithe of the land 776, [whether] of the seed of the land, [or] of the fruit of the tree, [is] the LORD’S: [it is] holy unto the LORD.

During Jesus’s ministry, it is known that tithe was still given. Your assertion that the New Testiment does not include the word tithe is in error. In fact, there are four references to tithing:

Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Note that Jesus said “... these ought ye to have done...”. that is a clear teaching from Jesus that tithing should be done. Their error was to only tithe and not do the other things.

Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

In Luke 18 we find the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector. Here the Pharisee is shown to take pride in his tithing but has once again, left the weigther issues of sin, repentance and forgiveness and not attended to both as he should have.

Hbr 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham11:

Here in Hebrews we see that the tithe was known as a commandment and law even in the church shortly after Jesus’s resurection.

We also know that there is only one testing of the Lord that he allows. One can even argue commands, and that is testing the Lord with regards to tithes:

Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that [there shall] not [be room] enough [to receive it].

So what I ask that you see in this, is to give to God ... not to a priest, pastor, or church. Yes, some may abuse the tithes and those that do so will answer to God for the abuse of that giving. But be yourself conformed to the word of God by giving the tithe. Futher, do it with gladness and a be thankful that you CAN give.

2 Corinthians 9:7 (New International Version, ©2010)
Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

I would also say that God is trying to get you a blessing. He is trying to give to you. But if your hand is clenched around the gold coin, it is not open for him to pour his blessings into your hand.

The Bible teaches that we must be willing to give up all attachments to follow Christ. Attachments to comfort, to old habits, to friends and family, our very lives and yes, even the attachment to money and the self gratification that it brings. God wants to make you WHOLE. And part of being WHOLE is to be the master of money, not it’s slave.

God owns all the gold in the temple, all the gold in the ground, all the gold on the earth and all the gold in the universe. He does not need your gold. But you need to put God first in your life, not money.

Add up how many hours in a week you work FOR money. Then add to that number how many hours per week you MANAGE money (checkbook, income tax, retirement, etc) and then add in how many hours per week you SPEND/USE money through shopping, eating out, or other spending. Then compare that number of hours against the number of hours you spend with GOD. If you cant let go of your money and give a small portion to God, you really need to look at your life and ask yourself ..... who or what REALLY is the god of your life?


10 posted on 12/04/2010 1:01:55 PM PST by taxcontrol
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To: taxcontrol

If all money is God’s why give it to him? How do you give money to God? If it goes to pay damages to a child for a pedophile priest is it “to God”?


11 posted on 12/04/2010 1:13:11 PM PST by Benchim
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To: OneWingedShark
So, I’ll ask a simple question: what is God’s?

10%, as defined by God in the Old Testament.
12 posted on 12/04/2010 1:15:03 PM PST by SoConPubbie
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To: SoConPubbie

Really?
Then the stars are not His?
The Earth is not His?
The Silver and Gold that He made are not His?

Now, argument may be made that people, in general, are not His by virtue of the freewill that God gave them -> i.e. that God’s gift [freewill] is exactly that of self-ownership*. {What good is Love or Worship if it is not freely given?}

*but just because we own ourselves and our own actions does not mean that we will not be held to account for those actions.


13 posted on 12/04/2010 1:26:04 PM PST by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: Benchim
As I said before, God wants you to be the master of money not it's slave. God wants you to be strong enough and have compassion and mercy to others. One of the best ways to do that is to give your tithes and offerings. Donations given cheerfully and regularly is an indication that a Christian has matured to a point where their trust is in God, not this world.

You can give to God in many ways. With your money you can donate to a church or a charity. Note that I said a charity not a nonprofit. Many nonprofits exist that are not designed to meet the needs of the poor, the orphans, the needy. That is what charities address.

As for what it goes to, what do you care? Unless the funds are specifically marked by you to address a specific fund or ministry, the money is added to the “general fund”. The nature of money creates an obfuscation of the end result. Was it your money or your neigbor's that paid the first $100 of the electric bill? Who knows? Money does not work that way.

Give the money unto God in both a spiritual and litteral way. Say a prayer of thanks for his blessings that enable you to have the money in the first place. Ask God that the money go to advance his kingdom ... and then let it go. It's not yours once you give it to God, both literally and spiritually. If you can release it to God, you will not feel anger or resentment for giving. This is another level a maturity and will make you a much happier Christian.

However, if you see corruption with the Church, If you know that someone is abusing the giving, call it out so that the abuse may be stopped and the situation corrected. As Stewards of God's church we have the responsibility to use God's money to advance his kingdom, not our personal interests. If the church or pastor or charity wont correct its use of Gods money and continues to abuse the giving, then simply give your money to another church, charity, needy family instead of getting upset of the destination of the funds.

14 posted on 12/04/2010 1:28:45 PM PST by taxcontrol
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To: taxcontrol
I have to disagree with you - the "tithe" actually amounted to 23%...if you read the OT carefully

may I recommend this article for clarification.

15 posted on 12/04/2010 1:36:57 PM PST by LiteKeeper ("Psalm 109:8")
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To: LiteKeeper

Please be more specific as to what you disagree with me on. I have made several posts to this thread and have covered several topics. I’m not sure what disagreement there may or may not be between us.


16 posted on 12/04/2010 1:54:17 PM PST by taxcontrol
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To: SoConPubbie

The tithe is actually more than 10%. Read Leviticus Chapter 27. There is a tithe on each person based on age and sex. There is a tithe on his property of which the phrase,

add the fifth part of the money of thy estimation unto it,

that is some 20% plus.

The question should be when evaluating “professional Christians,” is are they collecting the tithe according to the command of the Lord.

What was the purpose the Hebrews were given for tithing?


17 posted on 12/04/2010 1:59:39 PM PST by EBH ( Whether you eat your bread or see it vanish into a looter's stomach, is an absolute.)
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To: taxcontrol

II Timothy 2:3-7 makes plain that the ministry (and those serving full-time in the Work) is entitled to receive payment for services rendered. “You therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. No man that wars entangles himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who has chosen him to be a soldier. And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully. The husbandman that labors must be first partaker of the fruits. Consider what I say; and the Lord give you understanding in all things.”

God expects those who do His Work to be paid! And it is God who pays them. Full-time ministers should not be forced to work a second job because they are underpaid. (That is not to say though that their salaries should be exorbitant. No true minister would dare “fleece the flock” of God.)


18 posted on 12/04/2010 2:09:51 PM PST by EBH ( Whether you eat your bread or see it vanish into a looter's stomach, is an absolute.)
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To: taxcontrol
The "tithe" is not commanded for Christians...in the OT sense. And, the full amount of the "tithe" was 23 1/3%...two annual tithes, and one that was levied every third year. And, the tithe was meant to support the priests, who constituted the God-ordained government.

The modern equivalent to the OT tithe is paying your income tax...it "supports" the God-ordained system of government (Rom 13)...giving to the Church is a free-will offering, never prescribed by amount.

Please read the linked article for a much more complete exposition of the concept.

19 posted on 12/04/2010 2:10:31 PM PST by LiteKeeper ("Psalm 109:8")
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To: Benchim
You never saw that did you? Didn't come out from your "Preacher" or TV "Minister" did it?

Yes, I saw it. Sheesh! And why didn't you finish the quote?

The tithe was part of the cultus of the Mosaic covenant. As such declared "obsolete and ready to pass away".

There's obviously an agenda here. Who are you, what do you want? I'm going to guess you're proudly endangering the health of your soul by not being in any association with "organized religion", eh?

20 posted on 12/04/2010 2:15:30 PM PST by Lee N. Field ("He shall slay the dragon that is in the sea." Isaiah 27:1)
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To: LiteKeeper
and one that was levied every third year. And, the tithe was meant to support the priests, who constituted the God-ordained government.

Indeed this additional tax every third year was not meant for the priests, but for:

Deuteronomy 26:12: “When you have made an end of tithing all the tithes [plural] of your increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and have given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within your gates, and be filled.”

21 posted on 12/04/2010 2:18:57 PM PST by EBH ( Whether you eat your bread or see it vanish into a looter's stomach, is an absolute.)
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To: LiteKeeper
You claim that the tithe is not commanded for Christians. Yet clearly Jesus says to the Pharisees that they “ought” to have tithed and do more ....

Until you can reconcile that juxtaposition, I will stick with what Jesus taught.

22 posted on 12/04/2010 2:21:51 PM PST by taxcontrol
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To: taxcontrol

The Pharisees were not Christians.


23 posted on 12/04/2010 2:23:39 PM PST by Dahoser (Separation of church and state? No, we need separation of media and state.)
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To: Dahoser

Neither was Jesus


24 posted on 12/04/2010 2:40:00 PM PST by taxcontrol
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To: taxcontrol
That's the point, isn't it? There was the old covenant that He came not to perpetuate but to create a new one by His death and resurrection.

This whole thing of using the old covenant rules against new covenant believers is wrong. And it's always only tithing, not the other thousand and one rules.

As a guideline for giving, tithing is fine. But simply as a guideline, not as a commandment as so many churches and preachers insist. In my old church, they found the need for money outstripped the available tithing, so they reached for more in the form of first fruits giving in January which would be on top of tithing. I left shortly after the voluntary participation in first fruits giving turned into them announcing that January was almost over and there were people who still hadn't given their first fruits.

25 posted on 12/04/2010 3:17:41 PM PST by Dahoser (Separation of church and state? No, we need separation of media and state.)
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To: taxcontrol

Jesus, in this place, is speaking to the Pharisees under the old covenant. That changes with the New Covenant.


26 posted on 12/04/2010 3:22:47 PM PST by LiteKeeper ("Psalm 109:8")
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To: Benchim

The problem I have with people like Mike Murdoch is:

Outside how well run his presentation is done, he is often brilliant and wise understanding basic life lessons and living, from what the bible teaches; so he makes a very convincing presentation to Christian listeners; I think.

However, the more I watched him (during middle of the night insomnia) my opinion of his motivation changed entirely.

Pat Robertson and a few others have weekly TV shows. While there may be some appeal for some type of offering, that appeal is part of the show and never seems to be the central purpose of the show. Also, I very rarely see one of their shows repeated.

In Mr. Murdochs case, each of his shows that I have see have been shows that are run, repeatedly, the same show, again and again, for weeks or months on end. And, the entire show is a well orchestrated lead-up to the show’s major purpose - the appeal for money.

If someone only sees one of his presentations once, they can say: “that guy is smart” and maybe they even accept the idea that he is “doing Gods work”. After awhile, it seems clear he is doing his work; for himself - IN MY OPINION.


27 posted on 12/04/2010 3:36:34 PM PST by Wuli
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To: Benchim

Why didn’t you add verse 27?

“Nevertheless, lest we offend them, go to the sea, cast a hook, and take the fish that comes up first. And when you have opened its mouth, you will find a piece of money, take that and give it to them for Me and you.”

He did pay the tax.


28 posted on 12/04/2010 3:38:55 PM PST by Library Lady
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To: Dahoser

Tithing should always be according to scripture:

2 Corinthians 9:7 (New International Version, ©2010)
Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

But I would encourage people to test God by giving tithes and see if he does not bless you - also according to scripture.

Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that [there shall] not [be room] enough [to receive it].


29 posted on 12/04/2010 4:15:25 PM PST by taxcontrol
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To: Benchim

When you go before the White Throne of Judgement the Lord will ask you what you did with your time, treasure and talents. I don’t think saying “I didn’t think I had to tithe” will go over so well.


30 posted on 12/04/2010 4:30:14 PM PST by SVTCobra03 (You can never have enough friends, horsepower or ammunition.)
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To: Wuli

That is a great opinion. My opinion is that he is a “snake oil “ salesman and should be arrested for fraud. Senator Grassley on Iowa has an on going Senate investigation for consumer protection on this slithering slime and in my opinion they are very fascinated with the activity of Todd Coontz, and I think ubder president Palin the hammer will fall!!


31 posted on 12/04/2010 5:22:02 PM PST by Benchim
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To: SVTCobra03

There is absolutely no Judgment for those that believe in Jesus as the Son of God. Only those not saved face judgment and you cannot prove me wrong and I can prove you wrong with one absolute truth. ‘ Jesus Died for your sins.


32 posted on 12/04/2010 5:25:39 PM PST by Benchim
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To: Library Lady

NO HE DID NOT!! He sent the Disciples to get coins out a fishes mouth!! That is what we can do? We are chilgren of God — we pay zero.


33 posted on 12/04/2010 5:32:06 PM PST by Benchim
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To: SVTCobra03

You are a misguided “legalist”


34 posted on 12/04/2010 6:38:05 PM PST by Benchim
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To: EBH
The tithe is actually more than 10%. ...

It's too compicated. Is there a movement towards a flat tithe?

35 posted on 12/04/2010 7:16:47 PM PST by Doe Eyes
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To: OneWingedShark
Matthew 22: 19-21 “Shew me the tribute money.” And they brought unto him a penny. And he saith unto them, “Whose is this image and superscription?” They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, “Render therfore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God's.”

Genesis 1:26-27 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

From these two portions of Scripture I would come to the conclusion that the coin was Caesar’s since it had his image on it and that man is God's since we have His image on us...”So God created man in his own image...”

God is a lot more interested in us then our money...as any preacher should be as well.

I have never understood the preachers that ask for “seed faith” giving or the people that give it to them...If this worked would we all be able to be millionaires just be giving money back and forth between ministries? Shouldn't those preachers be sending money to their listeners so that God would bless them 100 fold?

36 posted on 12/04/2010 7:48:02 PM PST by WorldviewDad (following God instead of culture)
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To: Doe Eyes

Let’s have some fun...

How old are you?

What sex are you?

And how much profit did you take this month?


37 posted on 12/04/2010 8:03:54 PM PST by EBH ( Whether you eat your bread or see it vanish into a looter's stomach, is an absolute.)
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To: Benchim

“and I think ubder president Palin the hammer will fall!!”

Are you saying that a President Palin would use the Justice Department to go after the kinds of televangelists we are discussing? On what legal basis? Fraud?

I hope not, because it is a fine line from using “the law” to go after some abuse of what people believe, by their faith, to simply going after various faiths, on the legal premise that what they “believe” constitutes “fraud”.

I would rather see this handled more more often, more proactively, more forcefully by the Christian community itself.


38 posted on 12/06/2010 10:32:15 AM PST by Wuli
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