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Mary - the Immaculate Ark of the New Covenant [Catholic Caucus]
ScriptureCatholic.com ^ | not given | ScriptureCatholic.com

Posted on 12/05/2010 11:00:22 PM PST by Salvation

Mary - the Immaculate Ark of the New Covenant

Exodus 25:11-21 - the ark of the Old Covenant was made of the purest gold for God's Word. Mary is the ark of the New Covenant and is the purest vessel for the Word of God made flesh.

2 Sam. 6:7 - the Ark is so holy and pure that when Uzzah touched it, the Lord slew him. This shows us that the Ark is undefiled. Mary the Ark of the New Covenant is even more immaculate and undefiled, spared by God from original sin so that she could bear His eternal Word in her womb.

1 Chron. 13:9-10 - this is another account of Uzzah and the Ark. For God to dwell within Mary the Ark, Mary had to be conceived without sin. For Protestants to argue otherwise would be to say that God would let the finger of Satan touch His Son made flesh. This is incomprehensible.

1 Chron. 15 and 16 - these verses show the awesome reverence the Jews had for the Ark - veneration, vestments, songs, harps, lyres, cymbals, trumpets.

Luke 1:39 / 2 Sam. 6:2 - Luke's conspicuous comparison's between Mary and the Ark described by Samuel underscores the reality of Mary as the undefiled and immaculate Ark of the New Covenant. In these verses, Mary (the Ark) arose and went / David arose and went to the Ark. There is a clear parallel between the Ark of the Old and the Ark of the New Covenant.

Luke 1:41 / 2 Sam. 6:16 - John the Baptist / King David leap for joy before Mary / Ark. So should we leap for joy before Mary the immaculate Ark of the Word made flesh.

Luke 1:43 / 2 Sam. 6:9 - How can the Mother / Ark of the Lord come to me? It is a holy privilege. Our Mother wants to come to us and lead us to Jesus.

Luke 1:56 / 2 Sam. 6:11 and 1 Chron. 13:14 - Mary / the Ark remained in the house for about three months.

Rev 11:19 - at this point in history, the Ark of the Old Covenant was not seen for six centuries (see 2 Macc. 2:7), and now it is finally seen in heaven. The Jewish people would have been absolutely amazed at this. However, John immediately passes over this fact and describes the "woman" clothed with the sun in Rev. 12:1. John is emphasizing that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and who, like the Old ark, is now worthy of veneration and praise. Also remember that Rev. 11:19 and Rev. 12:1 are tied together because there was no chapter and verse at the time these texts were written.

Rev 12:1 - the "woman" that John is describing is Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. Just as the moon reflects the light of the sun, so Mary, with the moon under her feet, reflects the glory of the Sun of Justice, Jesus Christ.

Rev. 12:17 - this verse tells us that Mary's offspring are those who keep God's commandments and bear testimony to Jesus. This demonstrates, as Catholics have always believed, that Mary is the Mother of all Christians.

Rev. 12:2 -  Revelation is apocalyptic literature unique to the 1st century. It contains varied symbolism and multiple meanings of the woman (Mary, the Church and Israel). The birth pangs describe both the birth of the Church and Mary's offspring being formed in Christ. Mary had no birth pangs in delivering her only Son Jesus.

Isaiah 66:7 - for example, we see Isaiah prophesying that before she (Mary) was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of a son (Jesus). This is a Marian prophecy of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.

Gal 4:19 - Paul also describes his pain as birth pangs in forming the disciples in Christ. Birth pangs describe formation in Christ.

Rom. 8:22 - also, Paul says the whole creation has been groaning in travail before the coming of Christ. We are all undergoing birth pangs because we are being reborn into Jesus Christ.

Jer. 13:21 - Jeremiah describes the birth pangs of Israel, like a woman in travail. Birth pangs are usually used metaphorically in the Scriptures.

Hos. 13:12-13 - Ephraim is also described as travailing in childbirth for his sins. Again, birth pangs are used metaphorically.

Micah 4:9-10 - Micah also describes Jerusalem as being seized by birth pangs like a woman in travail.

Rev. 12:13-16 - in these verses, we see that the devil still seeks to destroy the woman even after the Savior is born. This proves Mary is a danger to satan, even after the birth of Christ. This is because God has given her the power to intercede for us, and we should invoke her assistance in our spiritual lives



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: bible; catholic; catholiclist; immaculatecomception
This is a Catholic Caucus thread.


Guidelines for Catholic Caucus Threads


1 posted on 12/05/2010 11:00:28 PM PST by Salvation
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To: Salvation

Oh dude, I just got off the other Mary thread.

I don’t think I can hack another one!!

Good night and God bless.


2 posted on 12/05/2010 11:01:43 PM PST by freedumb2003 (Lt. Drebin: Like a blind man at an orgy, I was going to have to feel my way through.)
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To: nickcarraway; NYer; ELS; Pyro7480; livius; ArrogantBustard; Catholicguy; RobbyS; markomalley; ...

Immaculate Conception Ping!


3 posted on 12/05/2010 11:02:24 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Question:

Exodus 25:11-21 - the ark of the Old Covenant was made of the purest gold for God’s Word. Mary is the ark of the New Covenant and is the purest vessel for the Word of God made flesh.

I have it as
Exodus 25:11-21 - And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.

Confused why Mary would be talked about Mary in Exodus at all.

Help?


4 posted on 12/05/2010 11:08:36 PM PST by dila813
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To: Salvation

How lovely! Thank you, FRiend.


5 posted on 12/05/2010 11:08:56 PM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: dila813

It’s prophecy. By the way, you may not have noticed, but this is a Catholic Caucus thread. Thank you for your question, but please allow me to ask, are you Catholic?


6 posted on 12/05/2010 11:10:49 PM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: Judith Anne

Yes, I am catholic

Not used to someone quoting a passage and inserting something else there.


7 posted on 12/05/2010 11:23:42 PM PST by dila813
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To: dila813

Are you a Catholic? This is a Catholic Caucus thread.

The quote from Exodus sets the stage for comparing the Ark of the [Old Testament] Covenant with the Ark of the New Covenant.


8 posted on 12/05/2010 11:28:58 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Salvation, YES I AM CATHOLIC, I am on your freaking ping list.

WAKE UP


9 posted on 12/05/2010 11:32:15 PM PST by dila813
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To: dila813

Sorry, FRiend. Please forgive me.


10 posted on 12/05/2010 11:36:21 PM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: Salvation

I found the answer. That was all I was looking for.

The quotes are from the Spiritual interpretations of scripture and not the literal quotes.

Used to seeing this talked about with some preamble of where this is coming from.


11 posted on 12/05/2010 11:52:27 PM PST by dila813
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Comment #12 Removed by Moderator

Comment #13 Removed by Moderator

To: Judith Anne

Many Catholics have questions. The only stupid question is the one that isn’t asked.

And yes, I’m Catholic too.


14 posted on 12/06/2010 1:18:10 AM PST by Just Lori
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To: Bibman

Jesus didn’t pray to Mary. Of course not. She was still alive.


15 posted on 12/06/2010 1:19:49 AM PST by Just Lori
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To: kelly4c

Do you think just ANY woman would be chosen to be the mother of God? She was born without original sin. An angel came to her (this IS in the bible) and told her she would conceive a son by the Holy Spirit.

She said yes, but can you imagine how scary that was for her? It would be scary enough now, but she could have been stoned to death if Joseph walked away from her.

By the way, we don’t make stuff up. Many many miracles have been attributed to the Blessed Mother.


16 posted on 12/06/2010 1:28:20 AM PST by Just Lori
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Comment #17 Removed by Moderator

To: kelly4c; Bibman

This is a Catholic caucus thread — I’m guessing neither of you is Catholic . . .


18 posted on 12/06/2010 2:25:14 AM PST by maryz
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Hi kelly4c,
please remember, this is a Catholic caucus. Likewise, we, too, believe everything that the Bible says. Since the Bible is a Catholic gift to the world, it cannot be otherwise. But we do not agree with your personal, fallible interpretation. Respectfully, I think you said your piece well, and I hope you have a wonderful Monday. Salvation, it’s always nice to read a post from Scripture Catholic, great site.


19 posted on 12/06/2010 2:39:28 AM PST by sayuncledave (A cruce salus)
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To: Salvation

Salvation, this is a great video and really explains a lot about the Blessed Mother.

I have posted it here and there but those threads weren’t a Catholic Caucus so I don’t think any one watched.

Enjoy, here is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUdYeYy3NQA

I first saw this at a great website:

http://www.conversiondiary.com/

Jennifer was an atheist and is now a Catholic.


20 posted on 12/06/2010 4:39:35 AM PST by Not gonna take it anymore
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To: Not gonna take it anymore

I watched the youtube link and it’s great. I was especially pleased by the part that showed Solomon did his Queen mother’s requests and Christ does His mother’s request when He did the miracle at Cana, and the part that clarifies that the Old Eve exhorted man to begin to sin in the Garden of Eden while the New Eve exhorted Christ to begin freeing man from sin by beginning His ministry.

The Scriptures are so gorgeous in the way they hang together and the miraculous ways the Old Testament foreshadows the New. Thank you for posting this!


21 posted on 12/06/2010 5:55:01 AM PST by Melian ( See Matt 7: 21 and 1 John 2: 3-6)
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To: Melian

I am so glad you enjoyed it.

I keep sending this link around to my email list. LOL


22 posted on 12/06/2010 6:10:32 AM PST by Not gonna take it anymore
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To: Just Lori

Sometimes I think we don’t immediately get it because we are so used to our priest guiding us through these mysteries and when we see it out of that context we get confused.


23 posted on 12/06/2010 8:20:15 AM PST by dila813
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To: dila813; Judith Anne; Salvation
I kind of agree with dila.

Ex 25::11 says "And thou shalt overlay it with the purest gold within and without: and over it thou shalt make a golden crown round about"

I do believe in the IC, but I do have questions too!
24 posted on 12/07/2010 3:17:42 AM PST by Cronos (Et Verbum caro factum est et habitavit in nobis (And the word was made flesh, and dwelt amonst us))
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To: Cronos

I do recall these now, I don’t have questions on it.

I would like to know more about the bishops that authored the interpretation.

What is interesting is that the spiritual interpretations guided by the holy spirit are allowed to break all the other standard church rules for interpretation of the bible.

I remember at St. Mary’s, that this is considered as much scripture than the literal words. That was the only church that had deep church wide discussions into these and their meaning.

Don’t recall ever a lesson on the source of these though.

I will see what I can find online later.

Great article to post that will trigger us to learn more about our history and faith though.


25 posted on 12/07/2010 8:25:18 AM PST by dila813
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To: dila813

Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant
By Steve Ray

Why do Catholics call Mary the Ark of the New Covenant? Answering that question will take us on a thrilling journey through the Old and New Testaments.

For example, Luke wove some marvelous things into his Gospel that only a knowledgeable Jew would have understood—a Jew who knew Jewish Scripture and had eyes to see and ears to hear. One of the things he would have understood is typology.

We all know that the Old Testament is full of stories, people, and historical events. A type is a person, thing, or event in the Old Testament that foreshadows something in the New Testament. It is like a taste or a hint of something that will be fulfilled or realized. Types are like pictures that come alive in a new and exciting way when seen through the eyes of Christ’s revelation. Augustine said that “the Old Testament is the New concealed, but the New Testament is the Old revealed” (Catechizing of the Uninstructed 4:8).

The idea of typology is not new. Paul says that Adam was a type of the one who was to come—Christ (Rom. 5:14). Early Christians understood that the Old Testament was full of types or pictures that were fulfilled or realized in the New Testament.

Here are a few more examples of biblical typology:
Peter uses Noah’s ark as a type of Christian baptism (1 Pet. 3:18–22).
Paul explains that circumcision foreshadowed Christian baptism (Col. 2:11–12).
Jesus uses the bronze serpent as a type of his Crucifixion (John 3:14; cf. Num. 21:8–9).
The Passover lamb prefigures the sacrifice of Christ (1 Cor. 5:7).
Paul says that Abraham “considered that God was able to raise men even from the dead; hence, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back” (Heb. 11:19).
The Ark of the Old Covenant

God loved his people and wanted to be close to them. He chose to do so in a very special way. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says, “The prayer of the people of God flourished in the shadow of the dwelling place of God’s presence on earth, the ark of the covenant and the temple, under the guidance of their shepherds, especially King David, and of the prophets” (CCC 2594). God instructed Moses to build a tabernacle surrounded by heavy curtains (cf. Ex. 25–27). Within the tabernacle he was to place an ark made of acacia wood covered with gold inside and out. Within the Ark of the Covenant was placed a golden jar holding the manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant (cf. Heb. 9:4).

When the ark was completed, the glory cloud of the Lord (the Shekinah Glory) covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle (Ex. 40:34–35; Num. 9:18, 22). The verb for “to cover” or “to overshadow” and the metaphor of a cloud are used in the Bible to represent the presence and glory of God. The Catechism explains:
In the theophanies of the Old Testament, the cloud, now obscure, now luminous, reveals the living and saving God, while veiling the transcendence of his glory—with Moses on Mount Sinai, at the tent of meeting, and during the wandering in the desert, and with Solomon at the dedication of the temple. In the Holy Spirit, Christ fulfills these figures. The Spirit comes upon the Virgin Mary and “overshadows” her, so that she might conceive and give birth to Jesus. On the mountain of Transfiguration, the Spirit in the “cloud came and overshadowed” Jesus, Moses and Elijah, Peter, James and John, and “a voice came out of the cloud, saying, ‘This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!’” Finally, the cloud took Jesus out of the sight of the disciples on the day of his Ascension and will reveal him as Son of man in glory on the day of his final coming. The glory of the Lord “overshadowed” the ark and filled the tabernacle (CCC 697).
It’s easy to miss the parallel between the Holy Spirit overshadowing the ark and the Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary, between the Ark of the Old Covenant as the dwelling place of God and Mary as the new dwelling place of God.

God was very specific about every exact detail of the ark (Ex. 25–30). It was a place where God himself would dwell (Ex. 25:8). God wanted his words—inscribed on stone—housed in a perfect container covered with pure gold within and without. How much more would he want his Word—Jesus—to have a perfect dwelling place! If the only begotten Son were to take up residence in the womb of a human girl, would he not make her flawless?
The Virgin Mary is the living shrine of the Word of God, the Ark of the New and Eternal Covenant. In fact, St. Luke’s account of the annunciation of the angel to Mary nicely incorporates the images of the tent of meeting with God in Sinai and of the temple of Zion. Just as the cloud covered the people of God marching in the desert (cf. Num. 10:34; Deut. 33:12; Ps. 91:4) and just as the same cloud, as a sign of the divine mystery present in the midst of Israel, hovered over the Ark of the Covenant (cf. Ex. 40:35), so now the shadow of the Most High envelops and penetrates the tabernacle of the New Covenant that is the womb of Mary (cf. Luke 1:35) (Pontifical Council for the Pastoral Care of Migrants and Itinerant People, The Shrine: Memory, Presence and Prophecy of the Living God).
Luke weaves additional parallels into the story of Mary—types that could be overlooked if one is unfamiliar with the Old Testament. After Moses died, Joshua led the Israelites across the Jordan River into the Promised Land. Joshua established the Ark of the Covenant in Shiloh, where it stayed for more than 200 years. One day the Israelites were losing a battle with the Philistines, so they snatched the ark and rushed it to the front lines. The Philistines captured the ark, but it caused them great problems, so they sent it back to Israel (1 Sam. 5:1–6:12).

David went out to retrieve the ark (1 Sam 6:1–2). After a man named Uzzah was struck dead when he touched the ark, David was afraid and said, “How can the ark of the Lord come to me?” He left the ark in the hill country of Judea for three months. We are also told that David danced and leapt in front of the ark and everyone shouted for joy. The house of Obed-edom, which had housed the ark, was blessed, and then David took the ark to Jerusalem (2 Sam. 6:9–14).

Compare David and the ark to Luke’s account of the Visitation:
In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah, and she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord” (Luke 1:39–45).
Mary arose and went to the hill country of Judea. I have been to both Ein Kerem (where Elizabeth lived) and Abu Ghosh (where the ark resided), and they are only a short walk apart. Mary and the ark were both on a journey to the same hill country of Judea.
When David saw the ark he rejoiced and said, “How can the ark of the Lord come to me?” Elizabeth uses almost the same words: “Why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Luke is telling us something—drawing our minds back to the Old Testament, showing us a parallel.
When David approached the ark he shouted out and danced and leapt in front of the ark. He was wearing an ephod, the clothing of a priest. When Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, approached Elizabeth, John the Baptist leapt in his mother’s womb—and John was from the priestly line of Aaron. Both leapt and danced in the presence of the ark. The Ark of the Old Covenant remained in the house of Obed-edom for three months, and Mary remained in the house of Elizabeth for three months. The place that housed the ark for three months was blessed, and in the short paragraph in Luke, Elizabeth uses the word blessed three times. Her home was certainly blessed by the presence of the ark and the Lord within.
When the Old Testament ark arrived—as when Mary arrived—they were both greeted with shouts of joy. The word for the cry of Elizabeth’s greeting is a rare Greek word used in connection with Old Testament liturgical ceremonies that were centered around the ark and worship (cf. Word Biblical Commentary, 67). This word would flip on the light switch for any knowledgeable Jew.
The ark returns to its home and ends up in Jerusalem, where God’s presence and glory is revealed in the temple (2 Sam. 6:12; 1 Kgs. 8:9–11). Mary returns home and eventually ends up in Jerusalem, where she presents God incarnate in the temple (Luke 1:56; 2:21–22).
It seems clear that Luke has used typology to reveal something about the place of Mary in salvation history. In the Ark of the Old Covenant, God came to his people with a spiritual presence, but in Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, God comes to dwell with his people not only spiritually but physically, in the womb of a specially prepared Jewish girl.

The Old Testament tells us that one item was placed inside the Ark of the Old Covenant while in the Sinai wilderness: God told Moses to put the stone tablets with the Ten Commandments inside the ark (Deut. 10:3–5). Hebrews 9:4 informs us that two additional items were placed in the Ark: “a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron’s rod that budded.” Notice the amazing parallels: In the ark was the law of God inscribed in stone; in Mary’s womb was the Word of God in flesh. In the ark was the urn of manna, the bread from heaven that kept God’s people alive in the wilderness; in Mary’s womb is the Bread of Life come down from heaven that brings eternal life. In the ark was the rod of Aaron, the proof of true priesthood; in Mary’s womb is the true priest. In the third century, St. Gregory the Wonder Worker said that Mary is truly an ark—”gold within and gold without, and she has received in her womb all the treasures of the sanctuary.”

While the apostle John was exiled on the island of Patmos, he wrote something that would have shocked any first-century Jew. The ark of the Old Covenant had been lost for centuries—no one had seen it for about 600 years. But in Revelation 11:19, John makes a surprising announcement: “Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple.”

At this point chapter 11 ends and chapter 12 begins. But the Bible was not written with chapter divisions—they were added in the twelfth century. When John penned these words, there was no division between chapters 11 and 12; it was a continuing narrative.

What did John say immediately after seeing the Ark of the Covenant in heaven? “And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child” (Rev. 12:1–2). The woman is Mary, the Ark of the Covenant, revealed by God to John. She was seen bearing the child who would rule the world with a rod of iron (Rev. 12:5). Mary was seen as the ark and as a queen.

But does this passage really refer to Mary? Some say the woman represents Israel or the Church, and certainly she does. John’s use of rich symbolism is well known, but it is obvious from the Bible itself that the woman is Mary. The Bible begins with a real man (Adam), a real woman (Eve), and a real serpent (the devil)—and it also ends with a real man (Jesus, the Last Adam [1 Cor. 15:45]), a real woman (Mary, the New Eve [Rev. 11:19–12:2]), and a real serpent (the devil of old). All of this was foretold in Genesis 3:15.

John Henry Cardinal Newman wrote about this passage in Revelation:
What I would maintain is this, that the Holy Apostle would not have spoken of the Church under this particular image unless there had existed a Blessed Virgin Mary, who was exalted on high and the object of veneration to all the faithful. No one doubts that the “man-child” spoken of is an allusion to our Lord; why then is not “the Woman” an allusion to his mother?
Later in the same chapter we read that the devil went out to persecute the woman’s other offspring—Christians—which certainly seems to indicate that Mary is somehow the mother of the Church (Rev. 12:17).

Even if someone rejects Catholic teaching regarding Mary, he cannot deny that Catholics have scriptural foundations for it. And it is a teaching that has been taught by Christians from ancient times. Here are a few representative quotations from the early Church—some written well before the New Testament books were officially compiled into the final New Testament canon:

Athanasius of Alexandria (c. 296–373) was the main defender of the deity of Christ against the second-century heretics. He wrote: “O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O [Ark of the] Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides” (Homily of the Papyrus of Turin).

Gregory the Wonder Worker (c. 213–c. 270) wrote: “Let us chant the melody that has been taught us by the inspired harp of David, and say, ‘Arise, O Lord, into thy rest; thou, and the ark of thy sanctuary.’ For the Holy Virgin is in truth an ark, wrought with gold both within and without, that has received the whole treasury of the sanctuary” (Homily on the Annunciation to the Holy Virgin Mary).

The Catechism of the Catholic Church echoes the words from the earliest centuries: “Mary, in whom the Lord himself has just made his dwelling, is the daughter of Zion in person, the Ark of the Covenant, the place where the glory of the Lord dwells. She is ‘the dwelling of God . . . with men’” (CCC 2676).

The early Christians taught the same thing that the Catholic Church teaches today about Mary, including her being the Ark of the New Covenant.


26 posted on 12/07/2010 9:27:09 AM PST by johngrace (God so loved the world so he gave his only son! Praise Jesus and Hail Mary!)
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To: johngrace

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0510fea5.asp


27 posted on 12/07/2010 9:28:06 AM PST by johngrace (God so loved the world so he gave his only son! Praise Jesus and Hail Mary!)
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To: johngrace

Many of these things are often discussed in Mass and in Church functions.

I was wondering where this particular piece came from. I haven’t heard this discussed or taught.

I suspect it is likely a Bishop living around 800AD. Would like to know the background on this and the background on the person’s life.

Maybe this person is actually a Saint recognized by the church.

I find that the background on some of these things in Church tradition are so interesting and inspiring.


28 posted on 12/07/2010 11:56:24 AM PST by dila813
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To: dila813

It took me a long time to understand what I know now. But being in pray from 25 years ago I remember a Still small voice(The Holy Spirit) guiding my impatient that in time I will know. Pray a good devotional before seeking and you will eventually find. I know I have. I left the Catholic Church then came back.


29 posted on 12/07/2010 12:35:58 PM PST by johngrace (God so loved the world so he gave his only son! Praise Jesus and Hail Mary!)
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To: johngrace

Yes, you are right.

There is just a ton out there related to this.

Maybe I can’t ask a church historian to guide me. That has worked in the past, I have to drive there because they don’t do email or phone calls.

Knowledge isn’t free, have to work for it sometimes. Would like to know, seems pretty pivotal in the Church’s early history.


30 posted on 12/07/2010 12:53:13 PM PST by dila813
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