Science Sees What Mary Saw From Juan Diego’s Tilma

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[Salvation]

Science Sees What Mary Saw From Juan Diego’s Tilma

ZENIT

Digital technology is giving new leads for understanding a phenomenon that continues to puzzle science: the mysterious eyes of the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe.

Digital technology is giving new leads for understanding a phenomenon that continues to puzzle science: the mysterious eyes of the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe.

The image, imprinted on the tilma of a l6th-century peasant, led millions of indigenous Indians in Mexico to convert to the Catholic faith. Earlier this month in Rome, results of research into the famed image were discussed by engineer José Aste Tonsmann of the Mexican Center of Guadalupan Studies during a conference at Pontifical Regina Apostolorum Athenaeum.

For over 20 years, this graduate in environmental systems engineering at Cornell University has studied the image of the Virgin left on the rough maguey-fiber fabric of Juan Diego's tilma. What intrigued Tonsmann most were the eyes of the Virgin.

Though the dimensions are microscopic, the iris and the pupils of the image's eyes have imprinted on them a highly detailed picture of at least 13 people, Tonsmann said. The same people are present in both the left and right eyes, in different proportions, as would happen when human eyes reflect the objects before them.

Tonsmann said he believes the reflection transmitted by the eyes of the Virgin of Guadalupe is the scene on Dec. 9, 1531, during which Juan Diego showed his tilma, with the image, to Bishop Juan de Zumárraga and others present in the room.

In his research, Tonsmann used a digital process used by satellites and space probes in transmitting visual information.

He insisted that the basic image "has not been painted by human hand." As early as the 18th century, scientists showed that it was impossible to paint such an image in a fabric of that texture. The "ayate" fibers used by the Indians, in fact, deteriorate after 20 years. Yet, the image and the fabric on which it is imprinted have lasted almost 470 years.

Tonsmann pointed out that Richard Kuhn, the 1938 Nobel Prize winner in chemistry, found that the image did not have natural animal or mineral colorings. Given that there were no synthetic colorings in 1531, the image is inexplicable.

In 1979, Americans Philip Callahan and Jody B. Smith studied the image with infrared rays and discovered to their surprise that there was no trace of paint and that the fabric had not been treated with any kind of technique.

"[How] it is possible to explain this image and its consistency ... on a fabric that has not been treated?" Tonsmann asked. "[How] is it possible that, despite the fact there is no paint, the colors maintain their luminosity and brilliance?"

Tonsmann, a Peruvian engineer, added, "Callahan and Smith showed how the image changes in color slightly according to the angle of viewing, a phenomenon that is known by the word iridescence, a technique that cannot be reproduced with human hands."

The scientist began his study in 1979. He magnified the iris of the Virgin's eyes 2,500 times and, through mathematical and optical procedures, was able to identify all the people imprinted in the eyes.

The eyes reflect the witnesses of the Guadalupan miracle the moment Juan Diego unfurled his tilma before the bishop, according to Tonsmann.

In the eyes, Tonsmann believes, it is possible to discern a seated Indian, who is looking up to the heavens; the profile of a balding, elderly man with a white beard, much like the portrait of Bishop Zumárraga painted by Miguel Cabrera to depict the miracle; and a younger man, in all probability interpreter Juan González.

Also present is an Indian, likely Juan Diego, of striking features with a beard and mustache, who unfolds his own tilma before the bishop; a woman of dark complexion, possibly a Negro slave who was in the bishop's service; and a man with Spanish features who looks on pensively, stroking his beard with his hand.

In summary, the Virgin's eyes bear a kind of instant picture of what occurred at the moment the image was unveiled in front of the bishop, Tonsmann says.

Moreover, in the center of the pupils, on a much more reduced scale, another scene can be perceived, independent of the first, the scientist contends. It is that of an Indian family made up of a woman, a man and several children. In the right eye, other people who are standing appear behind the woman.

Tonsmann ventured an explanation for this second image in the Virgin's eyes. He believes it is a message kept hidden until modern technology was able to discover it just when it is needed.

"This could be the case of the picture of the family in the center of the Virgin's eye," the scientist said, "at a time when the family is under serious attack in our modern world." (Zenit)

[Salvation]

"This could be the case of the picture of the family in the center of the Virgin's eye," the scientist said, "at a time when the family is under serious attack in our modern world."

The family started to disintegrate back when contraception was first introduced. Prayers for all families.

[Salvation]

Saint of the Day Ping!

If you aren’t on this ping list NOW and would like to be on it, please Freepmail me.

[Salvation]

Science Sees What Mary Saw From Juan Diego’s Tilma
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Blessed Juan Diego: A Model of Humility
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Pope to Visit Mexico in July to Canonize Juan Diego.

[pgkdan]

bump for later.

[mlizzy]

I hadn't heard of the smaller family image. It would be great to see these scenes printed out. And I'll echo you, prayers for all families.

[Kenny Bunk]

This harkens back to the earliest days of photography when detectives in Paris formulated a theory that a murder victim's eyes somehow would hold the image of the last person seen!

Let us proceed with caution.

[Kenny Bunk]

This harkens back to the earliest days of photography when detectives in Paris formulated a theory that a murder victim's eyes somehow would hold the image of the last person seen!

Let us proceed with caution.

[Salvation]

I understand your caution, but delve into this a little bit more on your own.

The image of our Lady of Guadalupe was very Aztec. Stars, sun, pregnancy belt, the colors of her veil and dress all meant something to them.

[Alex Murphy]

Though the dimensions are microscopic, the iris and the pupils of the image's eyes have imprinted on them a highly detailed picture of at least 13 people, [José Aste Tonsmann of the Mexican Center of Guadalupan Studies] said. The same people are present in both the left and right eyes, in different proportions, as would happen when human eyes reflect the objects before them. Tonsmann said he believes the reflection transmitted by the eyes of the Virgin of Guadalupe is the scene on Dec. 9, 1531, during which Juan Diego showed his tilma, with the image, to Bishop Juan de Zumárraga and others present in the room....

....He magnified the iris of the Virgin's eyes 2,500 times and, through mathematical and optical procedures, was able to identify all the people imprinted in the eyes. The eyes reflect the witnesses of the Guadalupan miracle the moment Juan Diego unfurled his tilma before the bishop, according to Tonsmann.

In the eyes, Tonsmann believes, it is possible to discern a seated Indian, who is looking up to the heavens; the profile of a balding, elderly man with a white beard, much like the portrait of Bishop Zumárraga painted by Miguel Cabrera to depict the miracle; and a younger man, in all probability interpreter Juan González. Also present is an Indian, likely Juan Diego, of striking features with a beard and mustache, who unfolds his own tilma before the bishop; a woman of dark complexion, possibly a Negro slave who was in the bishop's service; and a man with Spanish features who looks on pensively, stroking his beard with his hand.

In summary, the Virgin's eyes bear a kind of instant picture of what occurred at the moment the image was unveiled in front of the bishop, Tonsmann says.

Any photographs available of this magnified image?

[SaxxonWoods]

According to a book written by a Mexican scholar whose name I can’t remember now, the stars on Mary’s cloak and some other details on the painting were added long after the original image was created.

In about 1960, the official Catholic story was that a reflection of Juan Diego was present in Mary’s eyes. I wish the images would be published.

I like to visit such artifacts and locations, it’s a great hobby. I’ve saw the tilma long ago, and recently St. Peter’s grave below the Basilica in Rome. The chains that held St. Peter are in Rome also. Chimayo in New Mexico is another good one to visit. I’ve got some dirt from Chimayo right here with me. The Shroud of Turin is the one I’d really like to see in person. And then there’s Lourdes and Medjugorje. Plenty of places left to visit.

[topcat54]

Richard Kuhn, the 1938 Nobel Prize winner in chemistry, found that the image did not have natural animal or mineral colorings. …

In 1979, Americans Philip Callahan and Jody B. Smith studied the image with infrared rays …

Can anyone reference the actual studies where these claims allegedly originate?

[topcat54]

In January 2001, Dr. Jose Aste Tonsmann, now with the Mexican Center of Guadalupan Studies, revealed at a conference at the Pontifical Athenaeum Regina Apostolorum in Rome that advances in digital photography now revealed that the images in the Virgin's eyes were those assembled with Bishop Juan de Zumarraga when Juan Diego first unfurled his tilma and displayed the miraculous image. By magnifying the iris of the Virgin's eyes 2,500 times and, through mathematical and optical procedures, Aste Tonsmann feels that he is able to identify all the people imprinted in the eyes. In other words, the Virgin's eyes bear a kind of instant photograph of what occurred the moment the image was unveiled before the bishop.

(Virgin of Guadalupe )

How is the good doctor able to identify people that allegedly lived four or five centuries go?

Has anyone bothered to peer review the good doctor’s scientific findings?

[Jaded]

Uh, because there is a record of it?

[D-fendr]

For other articles and images, google:

eyes of the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe

[topcat54]

Uh, because there is a record of it?

With images?

[Not gonna take it anymore]

I hate to burst anybody’s bubble, especially since OLG is my all time favorite, but this article is from 2001. There are pictures somewhere on the web but to me they just looked like blobs. You would really have to have an imagination to see people in those pics.

I sure wish this was updated.

[Not gonna take it anymore]

Okay, I went to the site of the OP article and here is what I found!

http://catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0057.html

This is all about the Aztec and how Catholicism started in Mexico and about Our Lady of Guadalupe.

Didn’t want to remain just a downer. :-( LOL ;-D

[Salvation]

It’s been examined scientifically. There is no paint on it.

[Salvation]

I’m posting another article with a 2009 byline date, but not much more scientific information.

I’ll ping you to it.

[NYer]

Any photographs available of this magnified image?

"Bearded man" image in the right eye.

Head of Mary on the tilma

Close up of the "Bearded Man"

According to Dr. Tonsmann, from left to right we can see "the Indian", "bishop Zumarraga", the "translator", "Juan Diego showing the tilma" and below "the family".

A new and interesting kind of analysis of the eyes started in 1979, when Dr. Jose Aste Tonsmann, Ph D, graduated from Cornell University, while working in IBM scanned at very high resolutions a very good photograph, taken from the original, of the face on the tilma. After filtering and processing the digitized images of the eyes to eliminate "noise" and enhance them, he reports he made some astonishing discoveries: not only the "human bust" was clearly present in both eyes, but other human figures were seen as reflected in the eyes too.

Some additional facts from the tilma - symbols obviously intended to impress and persuade the pagan Aztecs.

In 1979 Philip Serna Callahan studied the icon with infrared light and stated that portions of the face, hands, robe, and mantle had been painted in one step, with no sketches or corrections and no paintbrush strokes.

HER FOOT RESTED ON THE CRESCENT MOON:
She had clearly crushed Quetzalcoatl, the feathered serpent god.

THE STARS STREWN ACROSS THE MANTLE:
She was greater than the stars of heaven which they worshipped. She was a virgin and the Queen of the heavens for Virgo rests over her womb and the northern crown upon her head. She appeared on December 12, 1531 and the stars that she wears on her mantle are the constellations of the stars that appeared in the sky that day.

THE BLACK CROSS ON THE BROOCH AT HER NECK:
Her God was that of the Spanish Missionaries, Jesus Christ her Son who died upon the cross.

THE BLACK LACE:
She wears the Aztec black Maternity lace around her tummy.

THE FOUR PETAL FLOWER OVER THE WOMB:
She was the Mother of God because the flower was a special symbol of life, movement and deity. The center of the universe.

HER HANDS ARE JOINED IN PRAYER:
She is not God, but clearly there is one greater than Her. She points her finger to the cross on her brooch.

Stars and Constellations on the Tilma

The stars are positioned on the right and left flaps of the tilma and a crescent moon is at the feet of Our Lady. If the constellations represented on the tilma are drawn out, including those only partially represented on the tilma, it will resemble the diagram below:

As you can see in the image, corresponding the Earth’s meridian with the actual positions of the constellations in the sky, the tilma falls on the four compass points in
such a way that the North-South axis cuts across Our Lady’s abdomen from her right side to her left, and the East-West axis cuts across her abdomen from her head to her
feet.

Our Lady of Guadalupe

The stars on her mantle are positioned as they would appear on this axis in the sky on December 12, 1531 in Mexico at dawn, with the eastern sky above her head and the
northern sky to her right. The compass points that we superimpose on the body of Our Lady of Guadalupe would be of no special significance except for the fact that
we assume her body is perpendicular to the Earth’s equator (i.e., straight up and down) and serves as the foundation for universal direction. This requires the North position to switch from the top to the right, and the East position to switch from the left to the top, as if someone turned the compass counter-clockwise 90 degrees (as seen from our observation point on Earth).

Also, at this point in time (1531 A.D.) the North region is slightly higher than the South, which may be due to the rotation of the North-South axis at six-month
intervals as noted in Hildegard’s cosmology. Below is an actual star map of December 12, 1531, dawn with viewpoint in Mexico City. We have moved East to the top and North to the right (from Our Lady’s viewpoint) to match the compass points represented on the tilma.

The image also had to be inverted, which indicates that it is probably a mirror image.

The geocentric view

The star map on the tilma is also significant for another reason. As seen from wherethe apparition took place, the star pattern on the tilma is one of the most dramatic
assemblages of constellations that have ever occurred at one time and captured in a photo-like image. These are the only star images that could appear in these
precise locations on the day of December 12, 1531 at dawn, in addition to being the very stars that would be observed from the precise angle to the sky created from a
Guadalupe, Mexico viewing point.

Obviously, no wide-angle lens was being used but all the constellations of that portion of the sky are fitted on the tilma. Moreover, it seems that the placement of the star patterns was deliberate, since on Our Lady’s left side the tilma is doubled-over and hangs on her left arm, yet it contains, from the observer’s viewpoint, the same constellations in their proper portions as would appear in the sky.