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St. Juan Diego's tilma: "completely outside" science
DeaconsBench ^ | Monday August 24, 2009 | Beliefnet/Deacon's Bench

Posted on 12/09/2010 2:54:51 PM PST by Salvation

St. Juan Diego's tilma: "completely outside" science

Monday August 24, 2009

A physicist who has spent years researching the tilma bearing the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe is affirming that there is no scientific explanation for the phenomenon.

Adolfo Orozco stated this in a presentation given at an International Marian Congress that took place Aug. 6-8 in Phoenix.

The congress, sponsored by the Knights of Columbus, the Phoenix Diocese and the Institute of Guadalupan Studies, was dedicated to Our Lady of Guadalupe.

Orozco gave a presentation on the image of the Virgin imprinted on St. Juan Diego's tilma, stating that it is "completely outside" any scientific explanation.

He explained that due to the humid, salty environment around the basilica where the tilma is kept in Mexico City, the cloak material should have decomposed years ago.

In fact, the researcher noted, this is what happened to a painted copy of the image that was made in 1789, on a material similar to the original tilma.

Although the copy was preserved behind glass, like the original, it had to be discarded eight years later because it was falling apart and the painting was fading, the physicist reported.

The original image, however, which was imprinted on the cloak when the Blessed Virgin appeared to the saint, remains intact after 478 years.

Orozco told his audience that this phenomenon is heightened by the fact that it should have been destroyed twice, once when nitric acid was accidentally spilled on a section of the cloth, and another time when a bomb exploded close to it.

He affirmed that there is no natural explanation for how the image has survived undamaged through time and potentially destructive events such as these.



TOPICS: Catholic; History; Religion & Science; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholiclist; guadalupe; juandiego
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Here's another scientific article about the tilma of St. Juan Diego.
1 posted on 12/09/2010 2:54:54 PM PST by Salvation
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To: nickcarraway; NYer; ELS; Pyro7480; livius; ArrogantBustard; Catholicguy; RobbyS; markomalley; ...

Scientific Ping


2 posted on 12/09/2010 2:56:28 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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Comment #3 Removed by Moderator

To: All

St. Juan Diego's tilma: "completely outside" science
Science Sees What Mary Saw From Juan Diego’s Tilma
Saint Juan Diego and Our Lady
Why Juan Diego is an American Saint
Pope Canonizes American Indian Saint
Blessed Juan Diego: A Model of Humility
Canonization of Juan Diego drawing Texans to Mexico City
Pope to Visit Mexico in July to Canonize Juan Diego.

4 posted on 12/09/2010 3:00:23 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Happy Feast Day St. Juan Diego.
5 posted on 12/09/2010 3:04:34 PM PST by Servant of the Cross (I'm with Jim DeMint ... on the fringe!)
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To: Salvation

bump...


6 posted on 12/09/2010 3:08:30 PM PST by pgkdan (Protect and Defend America! End the practice of islam on our shores before it's too late!)
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To: Salvation

Hillary Clinton leaves flowers for Our Lady of Guadalupe, asks ‘Who painted it?’

Sorry ;-) .... I have never forgotten that story. It always makes me laugh.

7 posted on 12/09/2010 3:28:30 PM PST by NYer ("Be kind to every person you meet. For every person is fighting a great battle." St. Ephraim)
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To: NYer

The smartest woman in the world!


8 posted on 12/09/2010 3:30:27 PM PST by georgia peach (georgia peach)
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To: NYer

It is funny to think that she actually said that. And she is our Secretary of State?

We are in bigggggggg troubbbble!


9 posted on 12/09/2010 4:01:59 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation; Dr. Eckleburg; Lee N. Field; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; RJR_fan

Why is it that there are no parlor trick “miracles” like this recorded in the Bible, yet they seem to be the mainstay of the RCC?


10 posted on 12/09/2010 4:21:36 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: topcat54
"Why are there no parlor trick miracles like this recorded in the Bible"

Good point. There are no talking donkeys in the Bible, or mysterious writing appearing on walls, or a staff that turns into a snake. You really know your Bible well.

11 posted on 12/09/2010 4:40:11 PM PST by wideawake
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To: topcat54

You mean like creating wine out of water because a steward misjudged the number of wedding guests? Or causing a fish to bite a hook so the fisherman can retrieve the gold coin stuck in its mouth? Or curing blindness with mud and spit instead of just commanding the blind man to see?

Protestants sure seem to have a problem with material spirituality sometimes....


12 posted on 12/09/2010 4:40:33 PM PST by Eepsy
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To: Servant of the Cross

This image of Our Lady is even more beautiful than its basilica isn’t.


13 posted on 12/09/2010 4:46:35 PM PST by wideawake
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To: Eepsy; topcat54
O the things you can do with a couple of loaves of bread and some fish. And then there's that little trick Elijah played with filling jars with oil. Or the one where he doused an alter twice with water before commanding it to burst into flames. And what about that little thing Moses did with the Red Sea? Or that whole deal with Lazarus coming out of the grave? Or what about . . .

I got news for you all. God is every bit alive and working mightily in our lives today as he was two thousand, three thousand, or four thousand years ago. Did you hear the one about the autistic boy who didn't talk until he was four, but now at the age of 6 is speaking and relating to others? And by the way, there isn't anything wrong with God's painting abilities either.

14 posted on 12/09/2010 4:56:35 PM PST by Hoodat (Don't touch my junk, Bro !)
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To: Hoodat

No faith for these people who don’t believe in miracles?

Go figure that one out. Our bodies are miracles, no matter what age we are!


15 posted on 12/09/2010 5:01:02 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

OK, I give up. What on earth is a “tilma?” And why is it impossible to paint images on them?


16 posted on 12/09/2010 5:10:58 PM PST by cookcounty (December 31st is coming.....STOP Obama's Midnight Tax Jack-Up!!)
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To: cookcounty

A tilma was a garment worn by peasants, it’s simply a cloak made from local plant (cactus) material and, under normal circumstances, would deteriorate in a few years. One could paint on them but the tilma in question has no known paints or brush strokes on it. Scientists cannot explain how the image was made.


17 posted on 12/09/2010 5:23:26 PM PST by pbear8 (the Lord is my light and my salvation)
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To: Salvation

My favorite site,
Full story of Our Lady of Guadalupe .
Sometime a long time ago I was sent material on a Movie that was to be done in which Juan was a Prince.Also a book was to follow that I never received.The movie was never made.Wish I had more tome to study these things.If you go to the website you can light a candle for your intentions.:)

http://www.sancta.org/


18 posted on 12/09/2010 5:55:46 PM PST by fatima (Free Hugs Today :))
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To: pbear8

Thanks.


19 posted on 12/09/2010 5:56:16 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: topcat54; Lee N. Field; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; RJR_fan
Why is it that there are no parlor trick “miracles” like this recorded in the Bible, yet they seem to be the mainstay of the RCC?

Because Christians in the Bible did not misidentify hallucinations as miracles.

The vision at Guadalupe and the vision at Fatima and the vision at Lourdes are really and truly the hallucination at Guadalupe and the hallucination at Fatima and the hallucination at Lourdes.

A religion built on hallucinations is not a Scriptural faith and those who put their faith in hallucinations stand on shifting sand.

20 posted on 12/09/2010 6:42:52 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: wideawake; topcat54; Lee N. Field; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; RJR_fan
There are no talking donkeys in the Bible, or mysterious writing appearing on walls, or a staff that turns into a snake. You really know your Bible well.

With the resurrection of Jesus Christ, all such miracles have ceased. We don't need any other miracles. We have the empty cross. Roman Catholics are still looking for what has already been given to those with eyes to see.

"Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.

But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." -- Matthew 12:38-40


21 posted on 12/09/2010 6:49:37 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Eepsy; Hoodat

I meant to write this on the open forum and mistakenly hit the private message. Sorry.

Ping to 21.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2640303/posts?page=21#21


22 posted on 12/09/2010 6:53:20 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Why stop there, DE?

Why not call the Resurrection the "hallucination at the tomb"? Or Paul's vision "the hallucination on the road to Damascus"?

It's the same argument.

23 posted on 12/09/2010 6:57:06 PM PST by wideawake
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
The vision at Guadalupe and the vision at Fatima and the vision at Lourdes are really and truly the hallucination at Guadalupe and the hallucination at Fatima and the hallucination at Lourdes.

I suspect something more sinister than simple hallucination.

24 posted on 12/09/2010 7:01:15 PM PST by Lee N. Field ("He shall slay the dragon that is in the sea." Isaiah 27:1)
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To: Salvation
Thanks for the post. Miracles are so… miraculous!

Video: Basilica of Guadalupe (including the image and altar).: "The most visited Christian shrine in the world. 20 million people a year visit this sanctuary."

More Our Lady of Guadalupe - online videos

25 posted on 12/09/2010 7:03:35 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: Lee N. Field

From your perspective it must be extremely sinister indeed: actual miracles of the Lord’s grace happening in everyday life - a flat contradiction to your counterfeit gospel.


26 posted on 12/09/2010 7:05:48 PM PST by wideawake
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
The humble Christians to whom these acts of grace were revealed were not "seeking for a sign" - they were, much to the contrary, surprised by these gratuitous expressions of God's love.

"All such miracles have ceased"

Hardly. His Father is working still.

27 posted on 12/09/2010 7:09:09 PM PST by wideawake
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To: Eepsy; Lee N. Field; Dr. Eckleburg
Protestants sure seem to have a problem with material spirituality sometimes....

Not really, we just have a propensity for truth. People appearing from the "other side" unannounced doesn't fit the pattern. It would have been nice if Jesus had given us a heads up that he was going to send mom back on these "close encounter" missions every so often starting sometime after the reformation.

28 posted on 12/09/2010 7:22:15 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: topcat54
"starting sometime after the reformation"

Like Our Lady of the Snows on Mons Esquilina in 360?

Or Our Lady of Walsingham in 1061?

Or Our Lady of the Rosary in 1208?

Or Our Lady of Mount Carmel in 1255?

You're batting 1.000 today.

29 posted on 12/09/2010 7:31:59 PM PST by wideawake
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To: wideawake

The strong reactions are actually good signs. Apathy is the true opposite of love.

Other reactions are often indications of being specially drawn. All things in good time.


30 posted on 12/09/2010 7:42:13 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: wideawake
To believe that there is a need for supernatural sitings of a dead woman who is most likely in heaven spending 100% of her time glorifying God is truly to question the completed work of Christ on the cross.

No small error.

31 posted on 12/09/2010 7:43:04 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
You're the one talking about "needing"and "seeking."

Mary, who is very much alive - her Son was not lying when He promised that those who believe in Him will live forever - glorifies God as He sees fit.

Visiting the children adopted by the Father into His family certainly glorifies Him.

32 posted on 12/09/2010 8:02:07 PM PST by wideawake
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To: wideawake
Why stop there, DE? Why not call the Resurrection the "hallucination at the tomb"? Or Paul's vision "the hallucination on the road to Damascus"?

Because I and millions of Christians can tell the difference between the pivotal moment in all of history at Calvary and the very reason for our existence from the sad delirium suffered by children, fools or charlatans.

It's the same argument.

It's the difference between salvation and superstition.

33 posted on 12/09/2010 8:13:04 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: wideawake
Visiting the children adopted by the Father into His family certainly glorifies Him.

We are not told to look for visits from formerly breathing human beings who, most likely, are now in heaven.

You have the words of Jesus Christ Himself admonishing those who look for a sign other than the resurrection.

And still Roman Catholics cling to these hallucinations as if they actually meant something other than human error.

34 posted on 12/09/2010 8:17:49 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: topcat54
People appearing from the "other side" unannounced doesn't fit the pattern. It would have been nice if Jesus had given us a heads up that he was going to send mom back on these "close encounter" missions every so often starting sometime after the reformation.

lol. "After the Reformation." I hadn't thought of that.

The counter-Reformation was full of coincidences.

35 posted on 12/09/2010 8:28:07 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Lee N. Field
I suspect something more sinister than simple hallucination.

You're probably right. 8~)

36 posted on 12/09/2010 8:30:02 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: topcat54; Judith Anne; rkjohn; PadreL; Morpheus2009; saveliberty; fabrizio; Civitas2010; ...
topcat54 asks:
Why is it that there are no parlor trick “miracles” like this recorded in the Bible, yet they seem to be the mainstay of the RCC?

37 posted on 12/09/2010 8:31:15 PM PST by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

“And still Roman Catholics cling to these hallucinations as if they actually meant something other than human error. “

More humor from the Pauline centric cultists at the fringe OPC eh “Doctor”?


38 posted on 12/09/2010 8:33:55 PM PST by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Because I and millions of Christians can tell the difference between the pivotal moment in all of history at Calvary and the very reason for our existence from the sad delirium suffered by children, fools or charlatans
ROTFLMAO! "Doc" you are a HOOT!
39 posted on 12/09/2010 8:41:59 PM PST by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

A rather detailed hallucination. Did you know what it meant to the Aztecs? I’m thinking not. Details from the image.

1. THE LADY STOOD IN FRONT OF THE SUN .She was greater than the dreaded Huitzilopochtli, their sun-god of war.

2. HER FOOT RESTED ON THE CRESCENT MOON She had clearly crushed Quetzalcoatl, the feathered serpent moon-god

3. THE STARS STREWN ACROSS THE MANTLE She was greater than the stars of heaven which they worshipped. She was a virgin and the Queen of the heavens for Virgo rests over her womb and the northern crown upon her head. She appeared on December 12, 1531 and the stars that she wore are the constellations of the stars that appeared in the sky that day!

4. THE BLUE GREEN HUE OF HER MANTLE She was a Queen because she wears the color of royalty.

5. THE BLACK CROSS ON THE BROOCH AT HER NECK Her God was that of the Spanish Missionaries, Jesus Christ her son
who died on the cross for all mankind.

6. THE BLACK BELT She was with child because she wore the Aztec Maternity Belt.

7. THE FOUR PETAL FLOWER OVER THE WOMB She was the Mother of God because the flower was a special symbol of life, movement and deity-the center of the universe.

8. HER HANDS ARE JOINED IN PRAYER She was not God but clearly there was one greater than Her and she pointed her finger to the cross on her brooch.

9. THE DESIGN ON HER ROSE COLORED GARMENT She is the Queen of the Earth because she is wearing a contour map
of Mexico telling the Indians exactly where the apparition took place.

All this from the imagination of a simple peasant. Were the roses only in his mind as well?


40 posted on 12/09/2010 8:45:13 PM PST by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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To: lastchance; Quix

You guys ridicule Quix for his alien posts but at least he is simply speculating. You actually believe this lunacy.

Mary is in heaven, just as Jesus Christ is in heaven. Mary is not appearing before peasant children in Guam and Jesus Christ is not being served up on alters across the globe.

Read the Bible. Believe the Bible.


41 posted on 12/09/2010 8:49:45 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: lastchance

For many outside the Church, knowledge of the Communion of Saints has been lost.

WIthout this knowledge, Our Lady of Guadalupe is incomprehensible to them.

It still draws them, but without the foundation of the Communion of Saints, they are stymied. Any argument therefore, lacks the common ground necessary to be fruitful.


42 posted on 12/09/2010 8:59:57 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Mary is in heaven, just as Jesus Christ is in heaven.
Color me impressed! The faux "Doctor" gets something RIGHT!
Mary is not appearing before peasant children in Guam and Jesus Christ is not being served up on alters across the globe.
Then s/he goes back to heretical babble. OK, the world is normal again.
43 posted on 12/09/2010 9:03:36 PM PST by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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To: D-fendr

Exactly right.


44 posted on 12/09/2010 9:04:30 PM PST by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

I have never ridiculed Quix about his belief in aliens. One can believe in aliens and still be Christian. I don’t agree with him but don’t think his belief in one calls into question his faith in God.


45 posted on 12/09/2010 9:15:31 PM PST by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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To: D-fendr

Thanks for the video.


46 posted on 12/09/2010 9:39:06 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: topcat54

**a propensity for truth**

Have you ever visited Mexico City and seen this image?

Well, if you want the truth, you should take the trip.


47 posted on 12/09/2010 9:40:54 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: narses

I am ROTFLOL because this article is about scientists!!!

Their opinion......not the church’s opinion. I guess some people need to be a little bit more thorough in their reading!

Chuckling!


48 posted on 12/09/2010 9:52:22 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: narses

Do these people still think the earth is flat?


49 posted on 12/09/2010 9:53:00 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: D-fendr
For many outside the Church, knowledge of the Communion of Saints has been lost.

For many "outside the church," communion of the saints means bowing down to "another Christ" and praying to statues when the true meaning of "communion of saints" means the fellowship Christians enjoy with one another as they worship the Triune God alone.

"Common ground" is not believing the superstitions and blasphemies of Rome's doctrines of men, but is found within the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

A Gospel no Roman Catholic has yet to proclaim on this forum.

50 posted on 12/10/2010 1:20:16 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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