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Discipling or Dispensing?
The Worldview Leadership Institute ^ | Joel McDurmon

Posted on 12/13/2010 11:56:24 PM PST by RJR_fan

... Perhaps Jerry most grabbed my attention early on in the film when he emphasized that the argument over dispensationalism does not merely pertain to one doctrine in the way that, say, arguments over baptism, or church government, etc., have limited effects. Instead, the dispensational system has universal implications for the Christian faith. It, in fact, has impacted the fate of Western Civilization. This claim jerked me to reality, mainly because—it’s absolutely correct and so absolutely important. ...

That the greatest historical waning of Christian influence throughout the world has occurred parallel to the rise of dispensationalism, I believe, is no mere coincidence. Cultural retreatism has its consequences. ...

The history behind Darby, Scofield, Chafer and others puts the emergence of the dispensational system in a new light, helping the viewer see how and why the system grew so popular in American culture, while at the same time showing some of its numerous deficiencies. I appreciated one insight that puts dispensationalism in its peculiar historical context: it belongs historically to an era in which individualistic prophecy experts appeared all over, pronouncing themselves as the ones who would “raise up the true church” once again. Most of these groups we today mark clearly as “Cults,” including Joseph Smith’s Mormonism, William Miller’s millenarianism, and Charles Taze Russell’s Jehovah’s Witnesses. The lumping of these types with Darby’s novel dispensationalism by no means equates them, but to see their similarities in emergence and methodology provides a helpful insight into their appeal and success.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Evangelical Christian; History; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: dispensationalism; prophecypimps
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1 posted on 12/13/2010 11:56:27 PM PST by RJR_fan
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To: DManA; GiovannaNicoletta; CynicalBear; ex-Texan; M. Espinola; topcat54; ShadowAce; oldenuff2no; ...

ping


2 posted on 12/13/2010 11:57:29 PM PST by RJR_fan (The press corpse is going through the final stages of Hopium withdrawal. That leg tingle is urine.)
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To: RJR_fan

Please remove my name from your ping list.


3 posted on 12/14/2010 1:24:20 AM PST by GiovannaNicoletta
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To: RJR_fan

PlaceMark


4 posted on 12/14/2010 2:23:36 AM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

I’ve found dispensationalism to simply be more true to the literal hermeneutic than any other system of theology, while it accepts and builds upon the previous Christian doctrines and theologies slowly enunciated over the ages. Unlike many of the other theologies, it also places primary obedience to learning doctrine under the active work of the Holy Spirit, vice academic soulish learning.

Accordingly attacks upon dispensationalism are simply attacks upon other Christian doctrines developed by other denominations, and/or the work of God the Holy Spirit, and/or the literal Word of God. None of these attacks are consistent with simple true faith in Christ.


5 posted on 12/14/2010 2:33:43 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: RJR_fan

Good article. Nails it.


6 posted on 12/14/2010 4:57:12 AM PST by circlecity
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To: RJR_fan

LOL ... this guy is the director of research ? ...

The long awaited critique of dispensational theology? LOL

What research has he done to produce this silly article? Were all you preterists holding your breathe waiting for him to finish his important work?

He is repeating the same old tired mantra to sell some DVDs to people too lazy to study the Bible seriously.


7 posted on 12/14/2010 6:15:04 AM PST by dartuser ("The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has limits.")
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
I know its frustrating to have these guys constantly posting their preterist crap ...

but consider Pauls instructions for elders to Titus ...

"For the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward ... holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict

8 posted on 12/14/2010 6:21:14 AM PST by dartuser ("The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has limits.")
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To: RJR_fan; dartuser; Cvengr
I posted this on another thread but I believe it would be appropriate to post it here as well.

Throughout the Bible God has attempted to warn, teach, and prepare His people. He used prophecy as a means to instruct His followers about how to prepare and be ready. The prophecy deniers have always tried to thwart that effort. God used prophecy consistently throughout history to allow those faithful to His word to prepare for coming judgment. Noah, Lot, and Joseph are examples of those who listened and understood. God has never left His faithful without knowledge of what was coming and how to prepare. Each of those believers was mocked and ridiculed but were proven correct and saved from God’s wrath.

Today we have those who would have us believe that sometime in the past God stopped giving us information of what to prepare for. Somehow they would have us believe that He did not instruct us about what was coming and how to prepare. They use the same mocking tone as Joseph’s brothers and people in Noah’s day. Peter and other’s warned us to “be mindful of the words which were spoken before” and that there would be “scoffers”.

2 Peter 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

There is a force in this world that would have us not believe or be prepared for coming judgment on this world. Just as with Noah, Joseph, and Lot, I believe the prophets have given us information of what is coming. We were told it would not be easy to understand.

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

I believe that God HAS given us information about what the future holds and has told us how to prepare. He used the prophets to inform the people of what was coming throughout history and He has not abandoned us to guess about what the future holds. Just as in Noah’s day we have been information about what is coming and the same force that caused people to scoff at Noah is at work today to keep people from being prepared for what is coming.

I, for one, would rather ere on the side of being over prepared then to suffer like those who scoffed at Noah, Lot, and Joseph or those who will suffer for scoffing at us who would be prepared today.

9 posted on 12/14/2010 6:39:14 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear

Well said ...


10 posted on 12/14/2010 6:43:59 AM PST by dartuser ("The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has limits.")
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To: Cvengr; RJR_fan
I’ve found dispensationalism to simply be more true to the literal hermeneutic than any other system of theology, …

The so-called "literal hermeneutic" (sic) as popularized by most modern dispensationalists is not taught in the Bible. It has no more biblical basis than the RC doctrine of the immaculate conception. It is a theory to support a pre-existing system, i.e., dispensationalism.

11 posted on 12/14/2010 8:30:59 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: CynicalBear; RJR_fan; dartuser; Cvengr
I posted this on another thread but I believe it would be appropriate to post it here as well.

Ditto.

I, for one, would rather ere on the side of being over prepared then to suffer like those who scoffed at Noah, Lot, and Joseph or those who will suffer for scoffing at us who would be prepared today.

This claim is so hollow as to be laughable. You have no clue what you are preparing for. Is it next week or in a hundred years? Will the US be involved or no? Will it be a microchip under the skin, a credit card with 666 imprinted, or a tattoo on one’s backside? Will it involve the Arabs or the Russians? What about the EU? Or the Chinese? Or the North Koreans? How many Israelis will be slaughtered while the Church hangs out on their cloud somewhere? The story changes every time a new edition of the newspaper gets printed. Truly the stuff of prophecy pimps.

And to shamefully hide behind a verse like 2 Peter 3:3 is a true indication of desperation. You confuse the scoffing against biblical truth (Peter’s subject) with folks who simple question the laughable exegesis of modern literalist futurists. The real scoffers of God’s truth are the modernists who need to reinvent their interpretation every time events change.

12 posted on 12/14/2010 8:42:00 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: dartuser; GiovannaNicoletta; RJR_fan
"I know its frustrating to have these guys constantly posting their futurist crap ... "

Don't take it personally. It’s not about you, it’s about your faulty teaching.

13 posted on 12/14/2010 8:44:26 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: DManA; CynicalBear; ex-Texan; M. Espinola; topcat54; ShadowAce; oldenuff2no; jy8z; antidemoncrat
those who will suffer for scoffing at us who would be prepared today.

That's one of the things I've never been able to figure out.

How does one prepare for the Rapture?

What do we need to do to add to the finished work of Christ, in order to make ourselves "ready?" How do we improve upon the blood of Jesus Christ as a means of salvation? How can our human works make good that which is lacking in God's provision?

Jesus warned his audience to brace themselves for the fall of Jerusalem, and proved Himself to be a true profit within a generation.

What, exactly, would our prediction-pimping fortune-telling friends have us prepare for?


14 posted on 12/14/2010 8:50:39 AM PST by RJR_fan (The press corpse is going through the final stages of Hopium withdrawal. That leg tingle is urine.)
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To: RJR_fan; DManA; CynicalBear; ex-Texan; M. Espinola; ShadowAce; oldenuff2no; jy8z; antidemoncrat; ...
How does one prepare for the Rapture?

This question gets to the classic vs neo- classic views of “dispensational truth”. In the classic view of dispensationalism ala Scofield and Chafer there were absolutely no identifiable events indicating an impending secret rapture of the Church. According to the classic view, God stopped dealing prophetically with Israel the nation at the time of the formation of the Church, and would only start dealing with Israel again after the rapture of the Church. Since all the time indicators in the Bible had to do with Israel and not the Church (i.e., see Matthew 24), there could be no indicators prior to the rapture. The prophetic clock had stopped ticking, in their view.

In the late 60s/early 70s a new form of dispensationalism came into being, that of the neo- classic view. This is the form of dispensationalism championed by folks like Hal Lindsey and Chuck Smith who placed prophetic significance on the founding of modern secular nation of Israel in 1948. As a result of this new theory, they managed to place a time boundary on the “great tribulation” and second coming of Christ, and, hence, on the timing of the rapture of the Church. In 1978, Smith wrote :

“We’re the generation that saw the fig tree bud forth, as Israel became a nation again in 1948. As a rule, a generation in the Bible lasts 40 years. . . . Forty years after 1948 would bring us to 1988.”
So Smith, like Lindsey, Edgar Whisenant , and a host of others, taught that the second coming of Jesus Christ would happen by 1988 and so the rapture would happen by 1981. By this time the classic dispensationalists were on the decline, so there was hardly anyone left to object to this new view of prophetic events. Besides, these folks were selling books and rejuvenating the dispensational movement. No one was about to take on the populists and kill the cash cow. Indeed, even men like John Walvoord, a former staunch classic, got caught up (excuse the pun) in the speculative movement and started writing books like Armageddon, Oil and the Middle East Crisis (later renamed Armageddon, Oil, and Terror. I guess Middle East Crisis was too dated. Another example of changing tune to fit the events). In his bio, he is described a man “who famously predicted current world events.” So much for the old Dallas Seminary of Chafer.

This modified or neo-classic view has been widely adopted within the dispensational community. In fact, one could argue that it is the majority view, inciting the publication of all sorts of time-based speculation regarding the rapture and the great tribulation.

15 posted on 12/14/2010 10:52:31 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: topcat54
got caught up (excuse the pun) in the speculative movement and started writing books like Armageddon, Oil and the Middle East Crisis

Walvoord was supposed to have been one of the people "you really should read". "An academic, not one of the nutty popular pundits." So, I grabbed a copy of this. I found it an absolutely horrible book. Worthless. He made no attempt to defend dispensational distinctives, he simply asserted them. He did get around to a gospel presentation at the back, which is always good.

They say Mark Hitchcock has had a hand in rewriting the current iteration.

16 posted on 12/14/2010 11:05:44 AM PST by Lee N. Field ("I'm so thankful for the active obedience of Christ. No hope without it." -- J. Gresham Machen)
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To: topcat54
In his bio, he is described a man “who famously predicted current world events.” So much for the old Dallas Seminary of Chafer.

This modified or neo-classic view has been widely adopted within the dispensational community. In fact, one could argue that it is the majority view, inciting the publication of all sorts of time-based speculation regarding the rapture and the great tribulation.

Thanks for your thoughtful and erudite summary of how today's prediction-pimping differs from "classical" dispensationalism.

One of the great ironies of history: Roe v. Wade started in Dallas Theological Seminary's own back yard -- and they completely missed the significance of the event. An obsession with "prophecy" teaching rendered them incompetent to speak prophetically, to apply God's Word to the real-world stuff happening right under their noses.

17 posted on 12/14/2010 11:24:51 AM PST by RJR_fan (The press corpse is going through the final stages of Hopium withdrawal. That leg tingle is urine.)
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To: RJR_fan
I was struck by the similarity of the Roman Catholic approach to typology with that of dispensationalism.
This type of exegetical "find what one needs" within Roman Catholic interpretation is actually allowed within their system. The Catholic Encyclopedia states, "all persons, events, or objects of the Old Testament are sometimes considered as types, provided they resemble persons, events, or objects in the New Testament, whether the Holy Ghost has intended such a relationship or not." That is, make the connection that is needed. Whether or not the author of the Bible, the Holy Spirit, actually intended it is not a factor. This is exactly what happens with Mary typology. Catholics go through the Old Testament finding people, places, and things that are "types' to grant Biblical status to their extra-Biblical Marian beliefs. (Mary Typology )
If you examine Scofield’s Notes and the theology derived from them, one discovers this same underlying principle. E.g., From Scofield Reference Notes (1917 Edition):
The entire chapter (Genesis 24) is highly typical:

(1) Abraham, type of a certain king who would make a marriage for his son Matthew 22:2 ; John 6:44 .

(2) the unnamed servant, type of the Holy Spirit, who does not "speak of himself," but takes of the things of the Bridegroom with which to win the bride John 16:13 John 16:14 .

(3) the servant, type of the Spirit as enriching the bride with the Bridegroom's gifts Galatians 5:22 ; 1 Corinthians 12:7-11 .

(4) the servant, type of the Spirit as bringing the bride to the meeting with the Bridegroom Acts 13:4 ; Acts 16:6 Acts 16:7 ; Romans 8:11 ; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-16 .

(5) Rebekah, type of the Church, the ecclesia, the "called out" virgin bride of Christ Genesis 24:16 ; 2 Corinthians 11:2 ; Ephesians 5:25-32 .

(6) Isaac, type of the Bridegroom, "whom not having seen," the bride loves through the testimony of the unnamed Servant 1 Peter 1:8 .

(7) Isaac, type of the Bridegroom who goes out to meet and receive His bride Genesis 24:63 ; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-16 .


18 posted on 12/14/2010 12:13:12 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: RJR_fan
That's one of the things I've never been able to figure out. How does one prepare for the Rapture?

Lordship, sanctification, discipleship, evangelism ... any of these terms ringing a bell?

Do you study Gods Word everyday? How is your prayer life? Do you actively petition the Lord to rid yourself of the sin in your life? Have you come to the point in your Christian walk where you are actively witnessing for Christ and discipling individuals? Do you know how to share Christ with others? Do you have a disciple you are working with right now? Do you have a passionate concern for the lost? Do you have neighbors who are unsaved? Do you understand that you too will sit in the bema seat in front of Jesus Christ and give an account of your work for Him? What will you have to show? Will you be empty handed and just grateful to be there? ... or do you run hard to win the race? Will you stand there weeping and sobbing over a life wasted? Or does your devotion to Jesus Christ guide your every moment?

If you knew that the time for all of these things could be over soon ... wouldn't you do something about it? THAT is how you prepare for the rapture. All of those things ... and more.

There is tremendous motivation for godly living in the premillenial scheme as the return of Christ in the rapture is an imminent event, it can happen at any time and there is nothing that has to happen prior.

19 posted on 12/14/2010 1:24:50 PM PST by dartuser ("The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has limits.")
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To: dartuser

Thanks, you present an excellent list of the normal duties of all Christians all the time.

However, none of these has anything to do with being “rapture-ready,” do they? If we are redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ, we are ready to spend eternity with Him. To say that anything else is required is heresy.

We would agree that the essence of wisdom is an awareness of time, and the desire, in the sight of God, to make the best possible use of our time.

However, your sense of available time profoundly affects the use you make of it. A sense of frantic, desperate, haste, leads one to cut corners, take short-cuts, and eschew long-range projects. Billy Sunday bragged of his ignorance (”I don’t know as much about theology as a jackrabbit knows about ping pong”) and lost all four of his children. He was in too much of a hurry to raise them “in the nature and admonition of the Lord,” you see.

One of the wealthiest men in America once asked my beloved mentor R J Rushdoony how he could use his wealth for the glory of God. RJR recommended that he found, and endow, 100 Christian prep schools throughout the USA, where the sharpest young Christians could be prepared to pursue vocations of excellence, informed by Christian insights. However, this guy was in a hurry. Instead, he flushed his wealth down a batch of “do-it-now” spectacular projects, schemes to evangelize American overnight, e.g. (Anyone remember Key 73?) After a decade or two, when his family had gotten control over his wealth, he had nothing to show for his projects.

When I was 20, I could not think more than a week or two ahead — and was engaged in all those activities you listed. Today, at 59, my dissertation is ready to be proof-read, and I ask God to help me make the best possible use of the next 30 or 40 years. My evangelism has been constricted by my scholarly obligations, but our family has managed to befriend a few Turkish couples who were here on student visas. My two adult children are enjoying their walk with God, and the younger two are still works in progress. But they are an integral part of our outreach to these Muslim sojourners.

SHALOM, dear friend, and may God’s favor rest upon your house! And may we all take encouragement from your zeal!


20 posted on 12/14/2010 1:46:32 PM PST by RJR_fan (The press corpse is going through the final stages of Hopium withdrawal. That leg tingle is urine.)
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To: CynicalBear; dartuser
Very well said, CynicalBear - and you too, dartuser.

Dispensationalism and the literal reading of the Bible is a huge threat to the spiritually dead churches of the old religious establishments. For so long, they have convinced themselves that huge portions of Scripture, and entire books, are optional, and if a person's personal opinions about a Biblical matter make one feel better than what is in the Bible, then the personal opinion becomes inerrant truth, with the Bible still optional. And its just not fashionable, if one fancies oneself an intellectual, to believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible. That's for simpletons and, besides that, it simply doesn't make one look good at the golf club.

It is enormously comforting to "rest" in the belief that the Bible is a collection of allegories, maybe a half step up from Grimm's Fairy Tales. It is comforting to know that the Scriptures can be whatever you want them to be and if you're not completely sure that you're ready to meet Christ, well, all of that Revelation stuff already happened in 70AD so there's nothing to worry about.

There is a reason why people will obsessively stalk prophecy threads for the purpose of denying the fact that the stage is rapidly being set for the events that God told us would precede His return. If they can deny it often enough and loudly enough, the delusion that the prophetic Scriptures will never actually come to pass can survive another day.

21 posted on 12/14/2010 2:41:18 PM PST by GiovannaNicoletta
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

>>If they can deny it often enough and loudly enough, the delusion that the prophetic Scriptures will never actually come to pass can survive another day.<<

I have been thinking along those same lines today. I’ve asked myself “what are they so afraid of”? It seems an obsession that is being driven by some fear. I’m sure the need to surround themselves with like minds is involved and if, like you say, they can silence truth it may go away. I think the “thief in the night” prophecy will catch them unaware. We can only hope the surprise is when they are taken up with the rest of us as opposed to realizing what just happened.

I was also wondering if a prophecy caucus would be an appropriate forum to discuss rather then open threads.


22 posted on 12/14/2010 2:54:33 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear
I was also wondering if a prophecy caucus would be an appropriate forum to discuss rather then open threads.

Excellent notion, CynicalBear!

23 posted on 12/14/2010 2:59:46 PM PST by GiovannaNicoletta
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To: topcat54; RJR_fan
I was struck by the similarity of the Roman Catholic approach to typology with that of dispensationalism.

Compare and contrast Geerhardus Vos (your classic amillenial theologian) on the proper use of typology:

"...Thus what is symbolical with regard to the already existing edition of the fact or truth becomes typical, prophetic of the later, final edition of the same fact or truth. From this it will be percieved that a type can never be a type independently of its being first a symbol. The gateway to the house of typology is at the farther end of he house of symbolism.

"This is the fundamental rule to be observed in ascertaining what elements in the Old Testament are typical, and wherein the things corresponding to them as antitypes consist. Only after having discovered what a thing symbolizes, can we legitmately proceed to put the question what it symbolizes, for the latter can never be aught else than the former lifted to a higher plane. ...When this is ignored, and in the place of this bond are put accidental resemblences, void of inherent spiritual signification, all sorts of absurdities will result, such as must bring the whole subject of typology into disrepute. Examples of this are: the scarlet cord of Rahab prefigures the blood of Christ; the four lepers of Samaria, the four Evangelists." --Geerhardus Vos, Biblical Theology, p145-6, as part of a longer section on typology.

I can almost hear the screeching now. "Scripture twisters!"

24 posted on 12/14/2010 3:46:49 PM PST by Lee N. Field ("I've studied bible prophecy 30 years." usually means "I've never hear of Geerhardus Vos.")
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To: CynicalBear; GiovannaNicoletta; topcat54; Religion Moderator
I was also wondering if a prophecy caucus would be an appropriate forum to discuss rather then open threads.

There's already a "dispensational caucus". If you start up a "prophecy caucus" and use it to limit discussion to prophecy considered from a dispensational viewpoint, you've hijacked the term.

25 posted on 12/14/2010 3:56:12 PM PST by Lee N. Field ("I've studied bible prophecy 30 years." usually means "I've never hear of Geerhardus Vos.")
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To: CynicalBear; GiovannaNicoletta; RJR_fan; Lee N. Field
I was also wondering if a prophecy caucus would be an appropriate forum to discuss rather then open threads.

Hiding in a “prophecy caucus”? (Hey, I believe in prophecy, just not the futurist, extremist, full-contact variety.) To quote someone here, I’ve asked myself “what are they so afraid of”?

26 posted on 12/14/2010 4:58:23 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: dartuser; RJR_fan; CynicalBear; GiovannaNicoletta
Lordship, sanctification, discipleship, evangelism ... any of these terms ringing a bell?

So, what you are saying is that the actual timing of the rapture is unimportant since these are things true Christians have practiced throughout the ages.

So why all the rapture hype theses days? Why not more emphasis on kingdom building ala Matthew 28:19,20?

There is tremendous motivation for godly living in the premillenial scheme as the return of Christ in the rapture is an imminent event, it can happen at any time and there is nothing that has to happen prior.

Imminence ala date-setting/date-suggesting is not what is found in the Bible. Imminence as as we find it in the Bible and what Christians have believed for 2000 years is not the sole domain of the premils.

27 posted on 12/14/2010 5:07:14 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: CynicalBear; GiovannaNicoletta
It seems an obsession that is being driven by some fear.

An amateur psychologist as well as an amateur eschatologist. What leads you to that conclusion, Dr. CB?

I’m sure the need to surround themselves with like minds is involved and if, like you say, they can silence truth it may go away.

You folks have a nice “amen corner” yourself. Now you want hide behind a caucus label. Truth doesn't need to hide behind a screen.

28 posted on 12/14/2010 5:11:51 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: topcat54

>>Hiding in a “prophecy caucus”?<<

You have pretty much staked your position and it’s time I “shook the dust from my shoes” and would rather spend time in other pursuits.


29 posted on 12/14/2010 5:14:21 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: topcat54
Imminence ala date-setting/date-suggesting is not what is found in the Bible.

Agreed ... so?

Imminence as as we find it in the Bible and what Christians have believed for 2000 years is not the sole domain of the premils.

Never said that ... but you can throw out most flavors of theology hiding in reformed circles.

Throw out preterists ... Christ already came back.
Throw out post-mils ... because the millenium isnt over yet.
Throw out the reconstructionists ... the world hasnt been evangelized.

Its easier for you to assume all dispensationalists are date setting because we recognize the beginning of birth pangs.

30 posted on 12/14/2010 6:48:32 PM PST by dartuser ("The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has limits.")
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To: RJR_fan; topcat54; RnMomof7; Dr. Eckleburg

***How does one prepare for the Rapture?***

For just one second, let’s assume that there will be a rapture as defined by our dispensational friends.

Isn’t it just a tad arrogant to assume it will happen during your lifetime? Christ ascended into Heaven 2000ish years ago, why do Dispys think He will return during their time on this earth?

Wouldn’t a far better question, more relevant be how do I prepare for my death, which is what every person has encountered? Irregardless if you are a Dispy, Amil, Premil or Classical Premil?

The Heidelberg Catechism Question provides a great answer to that far more relevant issue:

1. What is thy only comfort in life and death?

Answer: That I with body and soul, both in life and death, am not my own, but belong unto my faithful Saviour Jesus Christ; who, with his precious blood, has fully satisfied for all my sins, and delivered me from all the power of the devil; and so preserves me that without the will of my heavenly Father, not a hair can fall from my head; yea, that all things must be subservient to my salvation, and therefore, by his Holy Spirit, He also assures me of eternal life, and makes me sincerely willing and ready, henceforth, to live unto him.


31 posted on 12/15/2010 1:57:38 AM PST by Gamecock (Christian humility consists in laying aside the imaginary idea of our own righteousness....J Calvin)
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To: dartuser; RJR_fan; CynicalBear; GiovannaNicoletta
Throw out preterists ... Christ already came back.

I’ll make this point one more time since it never seems to stick, orthodox preterists like myself believe Christ’s Second Coming is still future. We also believe that many (all) of the prophecies related to Israel the nation were fulfilled in the events leading up to AD70 and the destruction of the temple. Even some futurists admit such is the case in limited circumstances, e.g., Luke 21:20, usually going on to justify their views with creative interpretative principles like double fulfillment.

Its easier for you to assume all dispensationalists are date setting because we recognize the beginning of birth pangs.

Your compatriot CynicalBear believes that the battle of Ezekiel 38-39 will happen within a year, and that Christ will return within seven or eight years. How is this not a form of date-setting/date-suggesting? If I said “all dispensationalists” are date setters, I apologize. The System® as understood and preached today by the prophecy pimps promotes date-setting. Most dispensationalists are either overt or covert date-setters. Better?

32 posted on 12/15/2010 8:02:21 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: GiovannaNicoletta; CynicalBear; dartuser
Dispensationalism and the literal reading of the Bible is …

Ezekiel 39:9.

33 posted on 12/15/2010 1:34:28 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: topcat54

>>Ezekiel 39:9<<

No problem with that one. How would you think the writer of that time would describe weapons? If you say God would have known it wouldn’t have been written as todays weapons anyway or no one throughout the ages would have taken the Bible seriously. Didn’t it say to shut up he prophecy until the time of the end. Couldn’t it be now that we are just starting to really understand what the prophecies meant if it is in fact the time of the end?


34 posted on 12/15/2010 1:43:34 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: dartuser
Throw out post-mils ... because the millenium isnt over yet.

By definition, the millennium is over when Christ returns.

Throw out the reconstructionists ... the world hasnt been evangelized.

Not sure where that claim comes from. Who have you been reading?

35 posted on 12/15/2010 2:00:42 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: CynicalBear; RJR_fan; Lee N. Field; GiovannaNicoletta; dartuser
How would you think the writer of that time would describe weapons?

Why would a so-called literalist believe that’s what the writer is doing? They would first have to eisegete the text in order to ask that question. See here.

BTW, this is the same argument theologically liberal evolutionists use to explain the language of Genesis 1-3.

36 posted on 12/15/2010 2:08:37 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: topcat54
By definition, the millennium is over when Christ returns. By definition? lol ...

Getting lazy in your old age cat ...

37 posted on 12/15/2010 2:09:17 PM PST by dartuser ("The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has limits.")
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To: dartuser; CynicalBear; RJR_fan; Lee N. Field; GiovannaNicoletta
Not lazy, just biblicaly consistent. You see at Christ’s return comes “the end,” as we are told in 1 Corinthians 15:
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
At the end, Christ delivers up the kingdom to the Father. In order to make all the texts fit together you must believe that the “thousand years” of Rev. 20 is some time prior to what Paul is describing here. The premillennialist has the kingdom still on earth after the second coming, not yet delivered to the Father. The premillennialist has the kingdom still subject to sin, death, and misery … and satanic influences. This is not the post-second coming kingdom of Scripture.

The premillennialist picks and chooses to believe only those texts that fit his system.

38 posted on 12/15/2010 2:19:38 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: topcat54
At the end, Christ delivers up the kingdom to the Father. In order to make all the texts fit together you must believe that the “thousand years” of Rev. 20 is some time prior to what Paul is describing here. The premillennialist has the kingdom still on earth after the second coming, not yet delivered to the Father. The premillennialist has the kingdom still subject to sin, death, and misery … and satanic influences. This is not the post-second coming kingdom of Scripture.

I think I just had an epiphany ... you have no clue what the dispensationalist believes ...

I am going to dinner now ... but I will respond to this one as you have butchered it so badly.

39 posted on 12/15/2010 2:36:30 PM PST by dartuser ("The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has limits.")
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To: topcat54
those who are Christ's at His coming. Then comes the end,

There's a big gap between the period and the "T".

40 posted on 12/15/2010 2:56:14 PM PST by Lee N. Field ("And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise" Gal 3:29)
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To: dartuser
I think I just had an epiphany ... you have no clue what the dispensationalist believes ...

Could be, there are many flavors, and they regularly changed their tune. I might not have gotten the memo.

41 posted on 12/15/2010 5:25:21 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: Lee N. Field
There's a big gap between the period and the "T".

I heard Johnny Mac make that very claim once in so many words.

42 posted on 12/15/2010 5:27:02 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: dartuser; Lee N. Field; RJR_fan
I am going to dinner now ... but I will respond to this one as you have butchered it so badly.

Can't wait. This should be good. Who's bringing the popcorn?

43 posted on 12/15/2010 5:30:37 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: topcat54
There's a big gap between the period and the "T".

I heard Johnny Mac make that very claim once in so many words.

I'll have to check (it's been a couple years since I read it), but I think Geerhardus Vos addresses that very point in his Pauline Eschatology

44 posted on 12/15/2010 6:29:56 PM PST by Lee N. Field (Dispensational exegesis not supported by an a-, post- or historic pre-mil scholar will be ignored.)
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To: dartuser; Lee N. Field; RJR_fan

In the dispensational system, during the “thousand years” who is it that populates the earth (besides Christ seated on the earthly throne of David)?


45 posted on 12/16/2010 7:00:41 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: Cvengr
I’ve found dispensationalism to simply be more true to the literal hermeneutic than any other system of theology

So it doesn't bother you that Dispensationalism is less than two hundred years old, and is largely believed by the most biblically and doctrinally illiterate people who have ever called themselves "Christians"?

46 posted on 12/16/2010 7:07:16 AM PST by The Theophilus
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To: RJR_fan; DManA; CynicalBear; ex-Texan; M. Espinola; topcat54; ShadowAce; oldenuff2no; jy8z; ...
What, exactly, would our prediction-pimping fortune-telling friends have us prepare for?

Ironically, our LORD told those who would see that prophecy fulfilled in their generation to actually do something - that is, flee to the mountains of Judea, not sit around doing nothing to be secretly "raptured" away.

Our Futurists friends have conjured up a perverse system that keeps warning us to "prepare" but instead of "fleeing to the mountains of Judea" they just sit on the hands and wait for the magic elevator to swoop them up to destinations unknown. Maybe "mountains of Judea" is the "literal interpretation" of the wedding feast, and "flee" is the "literal interpretation" of "sit around wringing your hands while the world collapses"

47 posted on 12/16/2010 7:15:28 AM PST by The Theophilus
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To: topcat54

If you could interpret Matthew 24 (an impossiblity for a preterist) you would know that those who come to Christ during the tribulation ... and are not martyred by the anti-christ will be on the earth during the millenial reign.


48 posted on 12/16/2010 7:40:13 AM PST by dartuser ("The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has limits.")
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To: The Theophilus
So it doesn't bother you that Dispensationalism is less than two hundred years old, and is largely believed by the most biblically and doctrinally illiterate people who have ever called themselves "Christians"?

lol ... You know that you are winning the argument when the opponent resorts to claiming his opponent is unqualified to comment.

49 posted on 12/16/2010 7:42:40 AM PST by dartuser ("The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has limits.")
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To: dartuser; Lee N. Field; RJR_fan
If you could interpret Matthew 24 (an impossiblity for a preterist) you would know that those who come to Christ during the tribulation ... and are not martyred by the anti-christ will be on the earth during the millenial reign.

So, if I’m reading the dispensational interpretation of Matthew 24 correctly (and I admit I may not be), there will be “saved” but non-resurrected Jews and gentiles on the earth during the “thousand years,” is that correct?

And what becomes of these “saved but non-resurrected Jews and gentiles” as the thousand years progresses? E.g., how does Isaiah 65:20-25 fit into this?

This was my claim that you objected to:

The premillennialist has the kingdom still on earth after the second coming, not yet delivered to the Father. The premillennialist has the kingdom still subject to sin, death, and misery … and satanic influences. This is not the post-second coming kingdom of Scripture.
Other than the fact that I should have been more specific and said “dispensational premillennialist”, how did what I say conflict with your Joe Average dispensational system?
50 posted on 12/16/2010 8:00:21 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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