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Are You More Blessed Than the Virgin Mary?
Desiring God ^ | 12/15/2010 | Jonathan Parnell

Posted on 12/15/2010 5:09:09 PM PST by RnMomof7

In the sermon descriptively entitled, “That Hearing and Keeping the Word of God Renders a Person More Blessed Than Any Other Privilege That Ever God Bestowed on Any of the Children of Men,” Jonathan Edwards writes: The hearing and keeping the word of God brings the happiness of a spiritual union and communion with God. ‘Tis a greater blessedness to have spiritual communion with God and to have a saving intercourse with him by the instances of his Spirit and by the exercise of true devotion than it is to converse with God externally, to see the visible representation and manifestations of his presence and glory, and to hear his voice with the bodily ears as Moses did. For in this spiritual intercourse the soul is nigh unto and hath more a particular portion than in any external intercourse. ‘Tis more blessed to be spiritually related to Jesus Christ—to be his disciples, his brethren and the members—than to stand in the nearest temporal relation, than to be his brother or his mother. Come, Thou Long Expected Jesus, ed. Nancy Guthrie, 57.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Ecumenism; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: blessed; catholicbashing; edwards; marianobsession; mary; scripture
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Amen
1 posted on 12/15/2010 5:09:12 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: metmom; Quix; 1000 silverlings; caww; boatbums; Alex Murphy; Gamecock; TSgt; Dutchboy88; ...

Ping for a little Jonathan Edwards


2 posted on 12/15/2010 5:12:11 PM PST by RnMomof7 (Gal 4:16 asks "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?")
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To: Forest Keeper; OLD REGGIE; RegulatorCountry; Iscool; bkaycee; editor-surveyor; smvoice; ...

Ping


3 posted on 12/15/2010 5:14:11 PM PST by RnMomof7 (Gal 4:16 asks "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?")
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To: RnMomof7
Yes.. No one is trying to make an idol out of me.. while denying it..
Statues of me are not being idiolized as being sinless..
I am blessed to be a sinner saved by grace.. like Mary is.. several of them..
4 posted on 12/15/2010 5:30:44 PM PST by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole....)
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To: RnMomof7
Tis more blessed to be spiritually related to Jesus Christ—to be his disciples, his brethren and the members—than to stand in the nearest temporal relation, than to be his brother or his mother.

Beautiful

5 posted on 12/15/2010 5:32:04 PM PST by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: hosepipe; Salvation; NYer; Mad Dawg

Mary is NOT a sinner. As if the Holy of Holies would allow himself to be borne of a sinner. Look how the ark of the covenant was treated. It was very well respected. Mary is the living ark who bore the God-Man. She deserves respect. If she’s good enough for Jesus, she’s good enough for me.

She is not a sinner.


6 posted on 12/15/2010 5:36:41 PM PST by diamond6 (Pray the Rosary to defeat communism and Obamacare!!)
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To: RnMomof7

Thanks for the thread.


7 posted on 12/15/2010 5:38:03 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: diamond6
Mary is NOT a sinner. As if the Holy of Holies would allow himself to be borne of a sinner. Look how the ark of the covenant was treated. It was very well respected. Mary is the living ark who bore the God-Man. She deserves respect. If she’s good enough for Jesus, she’s good enough for me.

The ark is a type of CHRIST placed in the Holy of Holies.. to believe and teach otherwise is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit ... Attributing to another the work of God ...many believe that is the unforgivable sin ..

Jesus came to earth to eat and drink with sinners.. He came to get His feet dirty ... He washed the feet of others.. Do you not think that God could stay sinless and pure amidst sin? How foolish

8 posted on 12/15/2010 5:41:38 PM PST by RnMomof7 (Gal 4:16 asks "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?")
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To: diamond6
[ She is not a sinner. ]

Prove it..

9 posted on 12/15/2010 5:43:49 PM PST by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole....)
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To: hosepipe

As a catholic, I do not idolize statues. The catholic church does not teach to idolize statues or even worship them. They are simply reminders to us. Period.

Do you have pictures of your mom or dad? If your answer is yes, then how would you feel if I told you that you were an idolator? It is extremely disrespectful to paint such a broad brush. I know that statue isn’t alive. Most catholics believe the same. We simply ask the saints to interecede for us to Jesus, just as I may ask you to pray for me. My dad is dying of cancer and I have asked everyone I know to pray for him, even perfect strangers. Yes I go to Jesus straigh off, but I also ask the saints in heaven to pray and people on earth to pray. It’s very simple and bears much fruit. I don’t understand why this is such a stumbling block for so many. I have received so many answered prayers, even miracles, because of certain saints intereceding for me. I thank God for them, and for their friendship to me.


10 posted on 12/15/2010 5:44:13 PM PST by diamond6 (Pray the Rosary to defeat communism and Obamacare!!)
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To: RnMomof7

ha ha ha, nice little poke this time of year. The Angel Gabriel saluted her as “full of grace”. Are you arrogant enough to think you were ever filled with grace as she was or is? Protestant-ism...heretics


11 posted on 12/15/2010 5:44:47 PM PST by Cannonball Bill
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To: hosepipe

Some things can’t be proven. It’s just common sense.

There is an excellent website called www.catholicanswers.com. They’re is a ton of information on this subject among many that can be explained so much better than by me. I hope you can find the time to check it out.

God bless you and have a very merry Christmas!!! :)


12 posted on 12/15/2010 5:47:05 PM PST by diamond6 (Pray the Rosary to defeat communism and Obamacare!!)
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To: RnMomof7
47 Then one said to Him, "Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You." 48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?" 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, "Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother." (Matthew 12)

13 posted on 12/15/2010 5:49:54 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: hosepipe

I’m sorry for my bad grammer (”they’re”).


14 posted on 12/15/2010 5:49:54 PM PST by diamond6 (Pray the Rosary to defeat communism and Obamacare!!)
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To: RnMomof7

“How foolish”.

I have lost the desire to converse with you further due to your rudeness.

Merry Christmas.


15 posted on 12/15/2010 5:51:52 PM PST by diamond6 (Pray the Rosary to defeat communism and Obamacare!!)
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To: diamond6
[ As a catholic, I do not idolize statues. The catholic church does not teach to idolize statues or even worship them. They are simply reminders to us. Period. ]

Same thing with the pagans.. the ones with various idols..
They are just reminders.. They know stone is stone as well..
All Cargo cults have vehicles with different cargos..

Many protestants worship the Bible.. same deal..
They also deny it.. with much the same logic..

16 posted on 12/15/2010 5:52:02 PM PST by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole....)
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To: diamond6
Some things can’t be proven. It’s just common sense.

Or irrational Mariolatry.

17 posted on 12/15/2010 5:53:16 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: hosepipe

I’m sorry, I gave you the wrong site.. its actually www.catholic.com. This site has all the official teachings of the church, Mary, the Saints, the Euchartist, etc. It is most informative. Sorry for the mix-up.


18 posted on 12/15/2010 6:07:40 PM PST by diamond6 (Pray the Rosary to defeat communism and Obamacare!!)
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To: topcat54

From catholic.com:

Mary: “Full of Grace”

The Fathers of the Church taught that Mary received a number of distinctive blessings in order to make her a more fitting mother for Christ and the prototypical Christian (follower of Christ). These blessings included her role as the New Eve (corresponding to Christ’s role as the New Adam), her Immaculate Conception, her spiritual motherhood of all Christians, and her Assumption into heaven. These gifts were given to her by God’s grace. She did not earn them, but she possessed them nonetheless.

The key to understanding all these graces is Mary’s role as the New Eve, which the Fathers proclaimed so forcefully. Because she is the New Eve, she, like the New Adam, was born immaculate, just as the First Adam and Eve were created immaculate. Because she is the New Eve, she is mother of the New Humanity (Christians), just as the first Eve was the mother of humanity. And, because she is the New Eve, she shares the fate of the New Adam. Whereas the First Adam and Eve died and went to dust, the New Adam and Eve were lifted up physically into heaven.

Of particular interest in the following quotations from the Fathers are those that speak of Mary’s immaculate nature. We will all one day be rendered immaculate (sinless), but Mary, as the prototypical Christian, received this grace early. God granted her freedom from sin to make her a fitting mother for his Son.

Even before the terms “original sin” and “immaculate conception” had been defined, early passages imply the doctrines. Many works mention that Mary gave birth to Jesus without pain. But pain in childbearing is part of the penalty of original sin (Gen. 3:16). Thus, Mary could not have been under that penalty. By God’s grace, she was immaculate in anticipation of her Son’s redemptive death on the cross. The Church therefore describes Mary as “the most excellent fruit of redemption” (CCC 508).


19 posted on 12/15/2010 6:09:33 PM PST by diamond6 (Pray the Rosary to defeat communism and Obamacare!!)
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To: diamond6

Saint Worship?

The word “worship” has undergone a change in meaning in English. It comes from the Old English weorthscipe, which means the condition of being worthy of honor, respect, or dignity. To worship in the older, larger sense is to ascribe honor, worth, or excellence to someone, whether a sage, a magistrate, or God.

For many centuries, the term worship simply meant showing respect or honor, and an example of this usage survives in contemporary English. British subjects refer to their magistrates as “Your Worship,” although Americans would say “Your Honor.” This doesn’t mean that British subjects worship their magistrates as gods (in fact, they may even despise a particular magistrate they are addressing). It means they are giving them the honor appropriate to their office, not the honor appropriate to God.

Outside of this example, however, the English term “worship” has been narrowed in scope to indicate only that supreme form of honor, reverence, and respect that is due to God. This change in usage is quite recent. In fact, one can still find books that use “worship” in the older, broader sense. This can lead to a significant degree of confusion, when people who are familiar only with the use of words in their own day and their own circles encounter material written in other times and other places.

In Scripture, the term “worship” was similarly broad in meaning, but in the early Christian centuries, theologians began to differentiate between different types of honor in order to make more clear which is due to God and which is not.

As the terminology of Christian theology developed, the Greek term latria came to be used to refer to the honor that is due to God alone, and the term dulia came to refer to the honor that is due to human beings, especially those who lived and died in God’s friendship—in other words, the saints. Scripture indicates that honor is due to these individuals (Matt. 10:41b). A special term was coined to refer to the special honor given to the Virgin Mary, who bore Jesus—God in the flesh—in her womb. This term, hyperdulia (huper [more than]+ dulia = “beyond dulia”), indicates that the honor due to her as Christ’s own Mother is more than the dulia given to other saints. It is greater in degree, but still of the same kind. However, since Mary is a finite creature, the honor she is due is fundamentally different in kind from the latria owed to the infinite Creator.

All of these terms—latria, dulia, hyperdulia—used to be lumped under the one English word “worship.” Sometimes when one reads old books discussing the subject of how particular persons are to be honored, they will qualify the word “worship” by referring to “the worship of latria” or “the worship of dulia.” To contemporaries and to those not familiar with the history of these terms, however, this is too confusing.

Another attempt to make clear the difference between the honor due to God and that due to humans has been to use the words adore and adoration to describe the total, consuming reverence due to God and the terms venerate, veneration, and honor to refer to the respect due humans. Thus, Catholics sometimes say, “We adore God but we honor his saints.”

Unfortunately, many non-Catholics have been so schooled in hostility toward the Church that they appear unable or unwilling to recognize these distinctions. They confidently (often arrogantly) assert that Catholics “worship” Mary and the saints, and, in so doing, commit idolatry. This is patently false, of course, but the education in anti-Catholic prejudice is so strong that one must patiently explain that Catholics do not worship anyone but God—at least given the contemporary use of the term. The Church is very strict about the fact that latria, adoration—what contemporary English speakers call “worship”—is to be given only to God.

Though one should know it from one’s own background, it often may be best to simply point out that Catholics do not worship anyone but God and omit discussing the history of the term. Many non-Catholics might be more perplexed than enlightened by hearing the history of the word. Familiar only with their group’s use of the term “worship,” they may misperceive a history lesson as rationalization and end up even more adamant in their declarations that the term is applicable only to God. They may even go further. Wanting to attack the veneration of the saints, they may declare that only God should be honored.

Both of these declarations are in direct contradiction to the language and precepts of the Bible. The term “worship” was used in the same way in the Bible that it used to be used in English. It could cover both the adoration given to God alone and the honor that is to be shown to certain human beings. In Hebrew, the term for worship is shakhah. It is appropriately used for humans in a large number of passages.

For example, in Genesis 37:7–9 Joseph relates two dreams that God gave him concerning how his family would honor him in coming years. Translated literally the passage states: “‘[B]ehold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and lo, my sheaf arose and stood upright; and behold, your sheaves gathered round it, and worshiped [shakhah] my sheaf.’ . . . Then he dreamed another dream, and told it to his brothers, and said, ‘Behold, I have dreamed another dream; and behold, the sun, the moon, and eleven stars were worshiping [shakhah] me.’”

In Genesis 49:2-27, Jacob pronounced a prophetic blessing on his sons, and concerning Judah he stated: “Judah, your brothers shall praise you; your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies; your father’s sons shall worship [shakhah] you (49:8).” And in Exodus 18:7, Moses honored his father-in-law, Jethro: “Moses went out to meet his father-in-law, and worshiped [shakhah] him and kissed him; and they asked each other of their welfare, and went into the tent.”

Yet none of these passages were discussing the worship of adoration, the kind of worship given to God.

Honoring Saints

Consider how honor is given. We regularly give it to public officials. In the United States it is customary to address a judge as “Your Honor.” In the marriage ceremony it used to be said that the wife would “love, honor, and obey” her husband. Letters to legislators are addressed to “The Honorable So-and-So.” And just about anyone, living or dead, who bears an exalted rank is said to be worthy of honor, and this is particularly true of historical figures, as when children are (or at least used to be) instructed to honor the Founding Fathers of America.

These practices are entirely Biblical. We are explicitly commanded at numerous points in the Bible to honor certain people. One of the most important commands on this subject is the command to honor one’s parents: “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the Lord your God gives you” (Ex. 20:12). God considered this command so important that he repeated it multiple times in the Bible (for example, Lev. 19:3, Deut. 5:16, Matt. 15:4, Luke 18:20, and Eph. 6:2–3). It was also important to give honor to one’s elders in general: “You shall rise up before the hoary head, and honor the face of an old man, and you shall fear your God: I am the Lord” (Lev. 19:32). It was also important to specially honor religious leaders: “Make sacred garments for your brother Aaron [the high priest], to give him dignity and honor” (Ex. 28:2).

The New Testament stresses the importance of honoring others no less than the Old Testament. The apostle Paul commanded: “Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due” (Rom. 13:7). He also stated this as a principle regarding one’s employers: “Slaves, be obedient to those who are your earthly masters, with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as to Christ” (Eph. 6:5). “Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be defamed” (1 Tim. 6:1). Perhaps the broadest command to honor others is found in 1 Peter: “Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor” (1 Pet. 2:17).

The New Testament also stresses the importance of honoring religious figures. Paul spoke of the need to give them special honor in 1 Timothy: “Let the presbyters [priests] who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching” (1 Tim. 5:17). Christ himself promised special blessings to those who honor religious figures: “He who receives a prophet because he is a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward, and he who receives a righteous man [saint] because he is a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward” (Matt. 10:41).

So, if there can be nothing wrong with honoring the living, who still have an opportunity to ruin their lives through sin, there certainly can be no argument against giving honor to saints whose lives are done and who ended them in sanctity. If people should be honored in general, God’s special friends certainly should be honored.

Statue Worship?

People who do not know better sometimes say that Catholics worship statues. Not only is this untrue, it is even untrue that Catholics honor statues. After all, a statue is nothing but a carved block of marble or a chunk of plaster, and no one gives honor to marble yet unquarried or to plaster still in the mixing bowl.

The fact that someone kneels before a statue to pray does not mean that he is praying to the statue, just as the fact that someone kneels with a Bible in his hands to pray does not mean that he is worshiping the Bible. Statues or paintings or other artistic devices are used to recall to the mind the person or thing depicted. Just as it is easier to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it is easier to recall the lives of the saints by looking at representations of them.

The use of statues and icons for liturgical purposes (as opposed to idols) also had a place in the Old Testament. In Exodus 25:18–20, God commanded: “And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be.”

In Numbers 21:8–9, he told Moses: “‘Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.’ So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.” This shows the actual ceremonial use of a statue (looking to it) in order to receive a blessing from God (healing from snakebite). In John 3:14, Jesus tells us that he himself is what the bronze serpent represented, so it was a symbolic representation of Jesus. There was no problem with this statue—God had commanded it to be made—so long as people did not worship it. When they did, the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed (2 Kgs. 18:4). This clearly shows the difference between the proper religious use of statues and idolatry.

When the time came to build the Temple in Jerusalem, God inspired David’s plans for it, which included “his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing from the hand of the Lord concerning it, all the work to be done according to the plan” (1 Chr. 28:18–19).

In obedience to this divinely inspired plan, Solomon built two gigantic, golden statues of cherubim: “In the most holy place he made two cherubim of wood and overlaid them with gold. The wings of the cherubim together extended twenty cubits: one wing of the one, of five cubits, touched the wall of the house, and its other wing, of five cubits, touched the wing of the other cherub; and of this cherub, one wing, of five cubits, touched the wall of the house, and the other wing, also of five cubits, was joined to the wing of the first cherub. The wings of these cherubim extended twenty cubits; the cherubim stood on their feet, facing the nave. And he made the veil of blue and purple and crimson fabrics and fine linen, and worked cherubim on it” (2 Chr. 3:10–14).

(See the Catholic Answers tract, Do Catholics Worship Statutes? for further information.)


20 posted on 12/15/2010 6:12:03 PM PST by diamond6 (Pray the Rosary to defeat communism and Obamacare!!)
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To: diamond6; Not gonna take it anymore; Celtic Cross; shurwouldluv_a_smallergov; Judith Anne; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my Catholic Apologetics and the Defense of the Faith ping list:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to Catholic threads where I can help defend our common faith!

21 posted on 12/15/2010 6:14:12 PM PST by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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To: Cannonball Bill; RnMomof7; metmom; Quix; lastchance; Cronos
ha ha ha, nice little poke this time of year. The Angel Gabriel saluted her as “full of grace”. Are you arrogant enough to think you were ever filled with grace as she was or is? Protestant-ism...heretics

I'm a sinner and I've been filled with God's grace. However, I'm not a pregnant virgin.

Are you?

22 posted on 12/15/2010 6:16:22 PM PST by Grizzled Bear ("Does not play well with others.")
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To: RnMomof7

Yawn. More protestant heresy. Sad.


23 posted on 12/15/2010 6:18:11 PM PST by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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To: diamond6

Wonderful post!!!!! I will pray for your father & you.

In case you haven’t noticed, you’d be further ahead to talk to a wall rather than try to convince this bunch of anything about our Catholic faith. This are misguided, ignorant, misinformed, and choose to remain so.


24 posted on 12/15/2010 6:18:45 PM PST by surroundedbyblue
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To: topcat54

My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen

Scripture text: Revised Standard Version - Catholic Edition

Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum,
et exsultávit spíritus meus
in Deo salvatóre meo,
quia respéxit humilitátem
ancíllæ suæ.

Ecce enim ex hoc beátam
me dicent omnes generatiónes,
quia fecit mihi magna,
qui potens est,
et sanctum nomen eius,
et misericórdia eius in progénies
et progénies timéntibus eum.
Fecit poténtiam in bráchio suo,
dispérsit supérbos mente cordis sui;
depósuit poténtes de sede
et exaltávit húmiles.
Esuriéntes implévit bonis
et dívites dimísit inánes.
Suscépit Ísrael púerum suum,
recordátus misericórdiæ,
sicut locútus est ad patres nostros,
Ábraham et sémini eius in sæcula.

Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper,
et in sæcula sæculórum.

Amen.


25 posted on 12/15/2010 6:19:47 PM PST by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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To: diamond6

I think the origination of that term (Merry Christmas) was Mary-Christ Mass.


26 posted on 12/15/2010 6:20:46 PM PST by ChinaGotTheGoodsOnClinton (Standing by the walls of Minas Tirith as Sauron's forces pound the gates...)
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To: surroundedbyblue

Thank you so much. He has a rare form of melanoma. I so appreciate your prayers. God bless you!!!


27 posted on 12/15/2010 6:21:15 PM PST by diamond6 (Pray the Rosary to defeat communism and Obamacare!!)
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To: hosepipe

There is also a wonderful call-in show called Catholic Answers. They are situated in San Diego, I think, but they are broadcast through a growing number of Catholic radio stations that are popping up all over the U.S. For example Immaculate Heart radio in Fresno. I believe they are streamlined through EWTN radio. Anyone here who differs in their beliefs can always call in the show and ask the host for more clarification. Half of the callers are protestants and they seem, for the most part, very appreciative of the clarification of issues they have.


28 posted on 12/15/2010 6:25:56 PM PST by diamond6 (Pray the Rosary to defeat communism and Obamacare!!)
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To: diamond6

I’m sorry to hear that. I’m getting ready to begin my evening prayers now so I will include him. May God bless you & your father in this difficult time.

A little boy (baby, actually) that I’ve been caring for at work for the last year just died from a brain tumor on Sunday. Could you please remember him & his parents in your prayers? Thank you!

Merry Christmas!


29 posted on 12/15/2010 6:26:49 PM PST by surroundedbyblue
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To: RnMomof7

Not a Catholic, but I will say that it is insanely stupid to even worry about this. Mary is where she is in God’s heart. We are where we are.

I presume we are equally blessed. But only God knows, and our peabrained attempts to speculate are mere vanity. For shame.


30 posted on 12/15/2010 6:29:32 PM PST by Larry Lucido
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To: diamond6
[ There is also a wonderful call-in show called Catholic Answers.]

I know what roman catholics think they believe and what other orthodox catholics believe as well..

But not all catholics are catholics..
Even some catholics that are carholics are not universal..

31 posted on 12/15/2010 6:34:10 PM PST by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole....)
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To: diamond6; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; Belteshazzar; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; ...
Mary is NOT a sinner.

Scripture for that? Chapter and verse?

As if the Holy of Holies would allow himself to be borne of a sinner.

Why not? He allowed Himself to eat with sinners and drink with sinners and touch sinners and die for sinners. Why would being carried by one be beneath His dignity?

Philippians 2:5-7 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

Jesus is not a snob.

Look how the ark of the covenant was treated. It was very well respected. Mary is the living ark who bore the God-Man.

Scripture to support that? Where does it say that in the Bible?

If she’s good enough for Jesus, she’s good enough for me.

Where's the references to Him praying to her and lighting candles to her and bowing down to her?

32 posted on 12/15/2010 6:43:33 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom

My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen

Scripture text: Revised Standard Version - Catholic Edition

Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum,
et exsultávit spíritus meus
in Deo salvatóre meo,
quia respéxit humilitátem
ancíllæ suæ.

Ecce enim ex hoc beátam
me dicent omnes generatiónes,
quia fecit mihi magna,
qui potens est,
et sanctum nomen eius,
et misericórdia eius in progénies
et progénies timéntibus eum.
Fecit poténtiam in bráchio suo,
dispérsit supérbos mente cordis sui;
depósuit poténtes de sede
et exaltávit húmiles.
Esuriéntes implévit bonis
et dívites dimísit inánes.
Suscépit Ísrael púerum suum,
recordátus misericórdiæ,
sicut locútus est ad patres nostros,
Ábraham et sémini eius in sæcula.

Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper,
et in sæcula sæculórum.

Amen.


33 posted on 12/15/2010 6:46:34 PM PST by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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To: diamond6

All Mary needed was the right lineage and to be a virgin.

That was ALL that qualified her for the job.


34 posted on 12/15/2010 6:47:21 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: RnMomof7

“The Virgin Mary remains in the middle between Christ and humankind. For in the very moment he was conceived and lived, he was full of grace. All other human beings are without grace, both in the first and second conception. But the Virgin Mary, though without grace in the first conception, was full of grace in the second ... whereas other human beings are conceived in sin, in soul as well as in body, and Christ was conceived without sin in soul as well as in body, the Virgin Mary was conceived in body without grace but in soul full of grace.”

~ Martin Luther

(in The One Mediator, the Saints, and Mary, Lutherans and Catholics in Dialogue VIII, edited by H. George Anderson, J. Francis Stafford, Joseph A. Burgess, Minneapolis: Augsburg Fortress Press, 1992, p. 238. He gives further references in his footnote 22 on page 381: “Sermon on the Feast of the Immaculate Conception (December 8?) 1527. Festival Postil (Festpostille). WA 17/2:288.17-34.”)


35 posted on 12/15/2010 6:50:40 PM PST by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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To: narses; RnMomof7
~ Martin Luther

What is it that Roman Catholics expect with they quote protestants in this fashion? Do they expect us to genuflect and kiss Luther's ring? We are protestants. We believe in sola Scriptura . We know that all men put their pants on one legs at a time. We know that men and councils can and do err.**

If we don't believe in the infallibility of your pope, we certainly do not believe it for the likes of a Luther. Do you think we are so stupid that we'll give up our principles for one erroneous statement?

** 3. All synods or councils, since the Apostles' times, whether general or particular, may err; and many have erred. Therefore they are not to be made the rule of faith, or practice; but to be used as a help in both. (Westminster Confession of Faith)

36 posted on 12/15/2010 7:06:24 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: metmom
Mary is NOT a sinner.......Scripture for that?.... Chapter and verse?

Yes indeed...someone please do. It isn't good enough they imagine "Mary being the living Ark"...as has been stated by the Vatican and Popes etc....it's just ridiculous thinking and has zip zero scripture to support it.

Can't hardly believe people actually put their faith in teaching as this, Metmom. But then if some believe a seared iron bottom full of residue projects an image of Christ...well then everything is then open to ones imagination.

The Vatican treats it's members like children to be entertained....what next can they enamor them with? All to keep them focused on "things" and "mystic thinking". It is appalling to say the least.

Just proves once again that if Rome says it is so ..to them it is so... no matter if it defies reason, knowledge and plain common sense. Let alone without any scripture backing apart from twisting and molding them beyond recognition.

37 posted on 12/15/2010 7:07:42 PM PST by caww
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To: RnMomof7
"...which is CHRIST IN YOU the hope of glory." Col. 1:27.

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love wherewith He loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved:) and hath raised us up together and made us sit together in Heavenly places IN CHRIST JESUS." (Eph. 2:4-6).

We are IN CHRIST. He is IN US.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath BLESSED US WITH ALL spiritual blessings in heavenly places IN CHRIST." (Eph. 1:3)

AND we have been blessed with ALL spiritual blessings IN CHRIST.

SO, am I more blessed than the Virgin Mary? According to the RCC, she is standing at the right hand of Jesus Christ, dispensing grace right now. I am IN CHRIST right now. He is IN ME right now. The RCC would take great offense, and say no, Mary is much more blessed than me. God's word of truth says yes, my life is so melded into Christ that I "am dead, and my life is hid with Christ in God." (Col. 3:3). As usual, there is a difference of opinion between the RCC and God's word. And, as usual, God's Word prevails once again.

38 posted on 12/15/2010 7:08:15 PM PST by smvoice (Defending the Indefensible: The Pride of a Pawn.)
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To: RnMomof7; Quix; B4Ranch; SonOfDarkSkies
Are You More Blessed Than the Virgin Mary?

Yup.

Mary is dead.

I'm alive in 21st century America.

No greater blessing has yet been revealed.

Thank you Jesus for putting me here and now.

Give me the strength, wisdom, and ability to do Your will without hesitation or failure.

Amen!


Frowning takes 68 muscles.
Smiling takes 6.
Pulling this trigger takes 2.
I'm lazy.

39 posted on 12/15/2010 7:11:30 PM PST by The Comedian (Government: Saving people from freedom since time immemorial.)
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To: topcat54

My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen

Scripture text: Revised Standard Version - Catholic Edition

Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum,
et exsultávit spíritus meus
in Deo salvatóre meo,
quia respéxit humilitátem
ancíllæ suæ.

Ecce enim ex hoc beátam
me dicent omnes generatiónes,
quia fecit mihi magna,
qui potens est,
et sanctum nomen eius,
et misericórdia eius in progénies
et progénies timéntibus eum.
Fecit poténtiam in bráchio suo,
dispérsit supérbos mente cordis sui;
depósuit poténtes de sede
et exaltávit húmiles.
Esuriéntes implévit bonis
et dívites dimísit inánes.
Suscépit Ísrael púerum suum,
recordátus misericórdiæ,
sicut locútus est ad patres nostros,
Ábraham et sémini eius in sæcula.

Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper,
et in sæcula sæculórum.

Amen.


40 posted on 12/15/2010 7:15:33 PM PST by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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To: smvoice; RnMomof7; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; Belteshazzar; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; ...
"...which is CHRIST IN YOU the hope of glory." Col. 1:27.

Doesn't that make us all arks of the covenant?

After all,

1 Corinthians 3:16 Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?

1 Corinthians 6:19Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,

Since Christ is living in me now, how does that make me any different than Mary who merely had Christ living in her in a body for only a few months.

41 posted on 12/15/2010 7:19:25 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: The Comedian
Amen to that. I love Mary, mother of Yeshuah...but she was a human being. And human beings are full of sin.

Nature of the beast!

If Mary weren't sinful...then her parents must have been free of sin...and their parents...and so on.

Enough of this syncretistic goddess worship! Away with Semiramis and Isis!

42 posted on 12/15/2010 7:20:39 PM PST by SonOfDarkSkies
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To: diamond6

***She is not a sinner.***

Of course she isn’t a sinner. She is now glorified and in Heaven.

Now, Mary was a sinner otherwise she would not have needed a Savior!


43 posted on 12/15/2010 7:21:07 PM PST by Gamecock (Christian humility consists in laying aside the imaginary idea of our own righteousness....J Calvin)
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To: narses; metmom
The Virgin Mary remains in the middle between Christ and humankind.

That statement is soooo wrong....The truth is Christ stands between God and humanity. Mary has no place in the Godhead whatsoever...regardless who states so of whatever faith they hold to.

"From the fullness of HIS GRACE we have all received one blessing after another......Grace and Truth came through Christ" John 1:16

44 posted on 12/15/2010 7:26:00 PM PST by caww
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To: metmom
Doesn't that make us all arks of the covenant?

After all,

1 Corinthians 3:16 Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?

1 Corinthians 6:19Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,

Since Christ is living in me now, how does that make me any different than Mary who merely had Christ living in her in a body for only a few months.

AMEN!

45 posted on 12/15/2010 7:27:22 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: caww

Argue with Luther, he said it.


46 posted on 12/15/2010 7:27:57 PM PST by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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To: The Comedian

LOL.

IIRC,

CONSIDERING THAT JESUS HIMSELF SAID . . .

ALL THE SAINTS PAST WANTED TO BE BORN IN THE END TIMES ERA . . .


47 posted on 12/15/2010 7:29:38 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: metmom; diamond6; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; Belteshazzar; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; ...

“Look how the ark of the covenant was treated. It was very well respected.”

The ark became an object of superstition during the time of Samuel and God allowed it to fall into the hands of the Philistines. After Solomon there is no mention of the ark for over 500 years and then it is brought out of obscurity during Josiah’s reformation. It is taken to Babylon during the exile of Judah and not heard from again until the anti-type is revealed in Revelation.


48 posted on 12/15/2010 7:31:19 PM PST by blue-duncan
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To: metmom

That’s how I read it, too, metmom. AND we are sealed unto the day of redemption. We also have that promise. And all by God’s grace. That we might be to the praise of HIS GLORY.


49 posted on 12/15/2010 7:36:48 PM PST by smvoice (Defending the Indefensible: The Pride of a Pawn.)
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To: narses
Would be excellant to note that throughout Mary's whole exaltation she lifted up God...not herself. Count the very references to Him..over and over she magnifies HIS NAME...and how little she speaks of herself...and when she does it is always from the perspective of who He is and what He has done.

Also keep in mind....this was from her heart and her own words...not some canned prayer the Synagogue gave her to recite so she could feel Holy before Him.

50 posted on 12/15/2010 7:39:27 PM PST by caww
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