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The Apparent "Good" in Natural Man
Monergism.Com ^ | J.W. Hendryx

Posted on 12/26/2010 7:51:12 AM PST by Gamecock

If natural man's condition is Total Depravity, How do we account for the apparent "good" in the unregenerate?

Good question because the meaning of total depravity is often misunderstood. It should first be pointed out what "total depravity" does not mean. The doctrine does not refer to man being as evil a creature as he can be. All fallen, unregenerate human beings are endowed with many of God's common graces. God has blessed all men with a conscience and the capacity to promote virtue and civil righteousness. It is abundantly clear that many beautiful aspects of the world we live in have been brought forth by those which are unredeemed by God's regenerative grace. God has gifted natural men and women with the skill to create beautiful music, make profound works of art, to invent intricate machines and do countless things that are productive, excellent and praiseworthy. John Calvin said,

"Those men whom Scripture calls "natural men" were, indeed, sharp and penetrating in their investigation of inferior things. Let us, accordingly, learn by their example how many gifts the Lord left to human nature even after it was despoiled of its true good." (Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, 274-275).

It would be natural to ask, then, if man is totally depraved, how is it that he can bring forth so many good things? This question is indeed valid but misunderstands what is meant when we talk about man as being rendered depraved by the fall.

So what is meant, then, by the total depravity and spiritual inability of the natural man? It means that man's many good works, even though in accord with God's commands, are not well pleasing to God when weighed against His ultimate criteria and standard of perfection. The love of God and His law is not the unbelievers' deepest animating motive and principle (nor is it his motive at all), so it does not earn him the right to redemptive blessings from a holy God. The Scripture clearly implies this when it states "...without faith it is impossible to please Him." (Hebrews 11:6a, NASB) and "whatever is not from faith is sin." (Romans 14:23) So if man "is restrained from performing more evil acts by motives that are not owing to his glad submission to God, then even his "virtue" is evil in the sight of God." (John Piper) His purpose for doing good works are not from a heart that loves God. Being unspiritual, that is, without the Holy Spirit, "... men do not rise above themselves" (Calvin) But now through our justification and regeneration in Christ, we are enabled, for the first time, to be pleasing to God on the basis of Christ's work and, from this union, the work of the Holy Spirit renews our affections for God, giving us understanding of, and a delight in, spiritual things and turning our heart of stone to a heart of flesh.

Total depravity only means man is lost (Luke 19:10), unspiritual by nature, and thus he is utterly impotent to recover himself from his ruined estate (John 6:44, 65, Rom 8:7; Eph 2:1, 2:5; Rom 3:11; 2 Corinthians 4:4-6). In other words he is unable to do any redemptive good. Fallen man does not desire God, he loves darkness and hates the light (John 3:19,20) so he will not come into Christ at all except he be reborn by the Holy Spirit (John 1:13, 3:6, John 6:37, 39, 44, 63-66; Rom 9:16).

Calvin made an observation from Romans 1 that all men (regenerate and unregenerate) have a sense of the divine within them. Even unbelievers know God in a sense because God has impressed his image on all persons. The apostle Paul said, "For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him..." (Rom 1:21) Since the Holy Spirit does not dwell with the fallen, the source of natural man's affections come from a polluted well. He has a sense of the divine and knows God, but only as an enemy, "and by their unrighteousness suppress the truth" (Rom 1:18). God has impressed humanity with a conscience and it restrains him from doing even more evil, but his heart cannot reach to the heavens to God unless the Spirit first pour His blessings down from heaven. God extends his love to man but since he is hostile to God by nature he will always reject Him. All are responsible to come to Him but inexcusable for their "knowing Him" but refusing to come to Him. "For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse." It is our duty to repent but we will not do so unless God grants repentance (2 Tim 2:25) and give us new eyes to see the truth. Without Scripture and the Holy Spirit we only distort the true light God has given us in His creation. Since the Scripture declares that we suppress the truth and make idols of all things created (Rom 1:18), so if our blindness is to be removed, it is not just the light of God we need (Scripture), but also new eyes to see that light (the Holy Spirit).

- John W. Hendryx

Related Articles
Human Depravity by R.C. Sproul
Is it possible to not worship Jesus and still be moral? by John Piper
Total Depravity by John Piper
Biblical Regeneration and Affectional Theology by John Hendryx
Can Spiritual Man Learn from Natural Man? by Jack Crabtree


TOPICS: Apologetics; Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: depravity
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1 posted on 12/26/2010 7:51:13 AM PST by Gamecock
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To: Gamecock

We have free will. Some people freely choose evil and others freely choose good.


2 posted on 12/26/2010 7:53:01 AM PST by Leftism is Mentally Deranged (Liberalism is against human nature. Practicing liberalism is detrimental to your mental stability.)
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To: drstevej; OrthodoxPresbyterian; CCWoody; Wrigley; Gamecock; Jean Chauvin; jboot; AZhardliner; ...

Morning Saints!

3 posted on 12/26/2010 7:53:17 AM PST by Gamecock (The resurrection of Jesus Christ is both historically credible and existentially satisfying. T.K.)
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To: Leftism is Mentally Deranged

We are spiritually dead until we are born again of the Spirit. And Scripture teaches you can’t choose that.

Until then your free will will only take you down the path of damnation, and you go there happily.


4 posted on 12/26/2010 7:56:40 AM PST by Gamecock (The resurrection of Jesus Christ is both historically credible and existentially satisfying. T.K.)
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To: Gamecock

Man is made good. Sin is an abberation. Get that straight, and life seems to go better.


5 posted on 12/26/2010 7:58:54 AM PST by the invisib1e hand ("Three hostile newspapers are more to be feared than 200 swords" - Napoleon Bonapart)
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To: Gamecock
GEOGRAPHY OF A WOMAN

Between 18 and 22, a woman is like Africa. Half discovered, half wild, fertile and naturally beautiful.
Between 23 and 30, a woman is like Europe. Well developed and open to trade, especially for someone of real value.
Between 31 and 35, a woman is like Spain, very hot, relaxed and convinced of her own beauty.
Between 36 and 40, a woman is like Greece, gently aging but still a warm and desirable place to visit.
Between 41 and 50, a woman is like Great Britain, with a glorious and all conquering past.
Between 51 and 60, a woman is like Israel, has been through war, doesn't make the same mistakes twice, takes care of business.
Between 61 and 70, a woman is like Canada, self-preserving, but open to meeting new people.
After 70, she becomes Tibet. Wildly beautiful, with a mysterious past and the wisdom of the ages, an adventurous spirit and a thirst
for spiritual knowledge.

THE GEOGRAPHY OF A MAN

Between 1 and 80, a man is like Iran , ruled by nuts.


6 posted on 12/26/2010 8:16:48 AM PST by SouthDixie (The secret to staying young is to live honestly, eat slowly and lie about your age.)
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To: Gamecock

I’ve always been of the opinion that, on some level, most all acts are, at their root, acts of self-interest, including our grandest gestures of kindness. Even if we can’t see or understand what would motivate kindness, there is, in some way, self-gratification involved (i.e. I help an old lady across a street because my conscience would bother me otherwise). I think the supremacy of self-interest explains well why capitalism works, in that the self-interest of capitalism unleashes the best possible outcome for everyone.

Lest you think me heartless or uncharitable, I should tell you that I give regularly and as generously as possible, both to my church and to homeless people I see on the street here in NYC. As a rule I never pass a beggar without giving him/her money, but I don’t kid myself. It’s out of self-interest:

In Proverbs 28:27, the Bible says that “He who gives to the poor will lack nothing, but he who closes his eyes to them receives many curses.” In Luke 14:12-14, Jesus advised hosts to invite the poor to their banquets because then God would bless them. Although the poor cannot repay the host, God will repay the host “at the resurrection of the righteous.”

That’s good enough for me.


7 posted on 12/26/2010 8:18:15 AM PST by nysuperdoodle
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To: Gamecock

Playing this dichotomy game leads to ill consequences.

Suggesting that all men are naturally evil, who must be whipped into moral shape, leads to a Nietzschean outlook, embraced by authoritarian progressives like Teddy Roosevelt. (H.L. Mencken wrote a vanity book which compared TRs speeches to the plagiarized writings of Nietzsche.)

However, even worse is the assumption that all men, *especially* “natural men”, are good, is much, much worse. Because if men are good, their government is also good, so the more government, the merrier. This is the justification of the worst forms of totalitarianism, such as the Soviet Union.

The best bet is to play the middle road, assuming that some men are good, some men are evil, that they don’t necessarily stay one way or the other, but as often as not are ruled by their weaknesses and indulgences, for which it is not permitted that heaven be used as justification, because while good people would do so, bad people would lie about it.

Oddly enough, this is pretty much the philosophy behind America’s founding fathers. It is semi-religious, but agnostic enough to admit that heaven is for praying to, not dictating the written law of men, because men tend to not transcribe heaven’s dictates very well. If at all. And it is better to assume flawed men wrote the law, so that other flawed men can change it, if needs be, without offending heaven.

Unlike the Europeans, our founding fathers, while they had respect for God, wanted to be clear that our constitution was the work of men. And as such, they knew that “enlightened self interest” works best when in competition with other “enlightened self interest”. Which is why our constitution is rife with checks and balances.

In practice, this works rather well, because while the public would *like* its leaders to be good, it will quickly assume that they are evil with the slightest evidence. So much so that it will even do so in the absence of evidence, just based on partisanship. Which is not particularly a bad thing, as it is a truism that “power corrupts.”

Which is also why we are very hesitant to give anyone “absolute power”, and are even deeply distrustful of anyone with *some* power, even if they are “on our side.”

Everybody screws up some time or another.

The author of this piece, however, is talking about whether mankind, or parts thereof, is good or evil *from a heavenly perspective*. And he is free to do this, though no answer will be forthcoming from heaven anytime soon as to whether he is correct or not.

Because, while good people would say so, evil people would lie about it.


8 posted on 12/26/2010 8:21:26 AM PST by yefragetuwrabrumuy
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To: Gamecock

“We are spiritually dead until we are born again of the Spirit. And Scripture teaches you can’t choose that.”

“11He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. 12But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.” - John 1

Notice the progression: “to all who did [past tense] receive him, who believed [past tense] in his name, he gave the right to become children of God”.

“To become (genestai).
Second aorist middle of ginomai, to become what they were not before. “

http://www.studylight.org/com/rwp/view.cgi?book=joh&chapter=001&verse=012

” 16”For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. “ - John 3

WHOEVER believes, not, “to whom I give belief as a gift”, or “Those I picked before the world began”.

“these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.” - John 20

BY BELIEVING YOU MAY HAVE LIFE. Not, by living you may believe.

” 37Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” 40And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” “ - Acts 2

When they ask what they should do, Peter doesn’t reply, “Nothing. God will cause you to be reborn or not.”

He says “Repent...be baptized...and you will receive...Save yourselves from this crooked generation.”

Calvin commented: “37. They were pricked in heart. Luke doth now declare the fruit of the sermon, to the end we may know that the power of the Holy Ghost was not only showed forth in the diversity of tongues, but also in their hearts which heard. And he noteth a double fruit; first, that they were touched with the feeling of sorrow; and, secondly, that they were obedient to Peter’s counsel. This is the beginning of repentance, this is the entrance unto godliness, to be sorry for our sins, and to be wounded with the feeling of our miseries. For so long as men are careless, they cannot take such heed unto doctrine as they ought. And for this cause the word of God is compared to a sword, (Hebrews 4:12,) because it doth mortify our flesh, that we may be offered to God for a sacrifice. But there must be added unto this pricking in heart readiness to obey. Cain and Judas were pricked in heart, but despair did keep them back from submitting themselves unto God, (Genesis 4:13; Matthew 27:3.)”

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom36.ix.vii.html

Calvin is right - it takes God revealing Himself to us, but he was also right (in commenting on this verse) that “But there must be added unto this pricking in heart readiness to obey. Cain and Judas were pricked in heart, but despair did keep them back from submitting themselves unto God...” Not quite what Calvin put into his systematic theology, but correct - a man who has encountered God’s love can draw back and reject it - or believe and be saved.


9 posted on 12/26/2010 8:22:47 AM PST by Mr Rogers (Poor history is better than good fiction, and anything with lots of horses is better still)
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To: Leftism is Mentally Deranged

Ping to post 9 - forgot to add you to the “To” box...


10 posted on 12/26/2010 8:24:20 AM PST by Mr Rogers (Poor history is better than good fiction, and anything with lots of horses is better still)
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To: Gamecock
The problem with this hard-line Calvinism is that it does not account for man's decision-making ability. Even unbelievers have the ability to decide to believe in Christ. The article argues otherwise.

The constant call of the Bible in passage after passage is for men to no longer be unbelieving but believing. The call of hard-line Calvinism is that if you are an unbeliever you cannot believe until the Holy Spirit turns you into a believer.

While the Holy Spirit is definitely involved in the saving process, the individual must make a critical decision to believe. If he does not, then God's grace has been resisted. If he does decide to believe in Christ, then his election is validated, his salvation is secure, and the atoning power of Christ's blood covers his sins. He then enters into the process of learning to be like Christ.

If God's grace was irresistable and humans were totally depraved, then only robots would believe. On the other hand, saying unbelievers have "free will" is going a bit too far. Unbelievers are in bondage. There is no freedom in unbelief. But the key to freedom is to believe in the Son of God and his finished work on the cross. That takes a decision of the will to believe.

11 posted on 12/26/2010 8:31:24 AM PST by Guyin4Os (A messianic ger-tsedek)
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To: Gamecock
Here's my view on this, from one of us heretical Mormons.

Mosiah 3:19
For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm/mosiah/3?lang=eng

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

http://lds.org/scriptures/nt/1-cor/2.14?lang=eng

12 posted on 12/26/2010 8:48:48 AM PST by Ripliancum ("For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given" Merry Christmas!)
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To: Leftism is Mentally Deranged
I think the point is that due to Natural Law (or God's law), every normal person implicitly knows good from evil. That does not determine willful conduct nor is it enough to save anyone but it is easily observable across cultures and societies.
13 posted on 12/26/2010 9:15:06 AM PST by hinckley buzzard
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To: Gamecock

“For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die”. Rom 5:7

Many that do good works, do them so that others see what they did, and praise them for that.

The Lord said to do good works in almost covert fashion, to assure our doing it unto the Lord and not unto man.


14 posted on 12/26/2010 9:33:38 AM PST by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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To: Gamecock

bttt


15 posted on 12/26/2010 9:35:09 AM PST by Matchett-PI (Trent Lott on Tea Party candidates: "As soon as they get here, we need to co-opt them" 7/19/10)
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To: the invisib1e hand

Man WAS made good. Man fell. Scripture teaches we are all dead in sin.

Your trust in psychological/leftist fallacies won’t make you or anyone else right with God.


16 posted on 12/26/2010 10:39:57 AM PST by Gamecock (The resurrection of Jesus Christ is both historically credible and existentially satisfying. T.K.)
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To: yefragetuwrabrumuy

***Suggesting that all men are naturally evil, who must be whipped into moral shape, leads to a Nietzschean outlook, embraced by authoritarian progressives like Teddy Roosevelt.***

No, all men are fallen and in need of a Savior.

It is the Pietistic churches who think man must be “whipped into moral shape.”


17 posted on 12/26/2010 10:45:31 AM PST by Gamecock (The resurrection of Jesus Christ is both historically credible and existentially satisfying. T.K.)
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To: Guyin4Os

***The problem with this hard-line Calvinism is that it does not account for man’s decision-making ability.***

Yeah, we just rely on Scripture way too much, don’t we!


18 posted on 12/26/2010 10:47:10 AM PST by Gamecock (The resurrection of Jesus Christ is both historically credible and existentially satisfying. T.K.)
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To: Gamecock; Guyin4Os

“Yeah, we just rely on Scripture way too much, don’t we!”

Nope. You ignore the scriptures...

6The LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it.” - Gen 4

“17 For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. 18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. 19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. 20Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.” - Rev 3

He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written,
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives
and recovering of sight to the blind,
to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”

20And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. 21And he began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.” - Luke 4


19 posted on 12/26/2010 11:05:10 AM PST by Mr Rogers (Poor history is better than good fiction, and anything with lots of horses is better still)
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To: Mr Rogers

Genesis 4 is the Gospel? Can you do well? HAVE you done well?

Revelation 3 is talking about churches who have drifted away. It is not an evangelistic verse. If you torture it to do so you are tossing out Romans 8, Romans 9, Ephesians 1 and tons of other passages.


20 posted on 12/26/2010 11:24:11 AM PST by Gamecock (The resurrection of Jesus Christ is both historically credible and existentially satisfying. T.K.)
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