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[Part One] The Flurry of Wings: God, Angels and You
The Moody Church ^ | Dr. Erwin W. Lutzer

Posted on 12/28/2010 9:35:02 AM PST by wmfights

Heaven helped them!

“After experiencing dramatic rescues, medical miracles and other life-changing events, these ordinary people have no doubt that we share our world with heavenly spirits,” reports People magazine. Note 1

There was a time when those who believed in angels were thought of as misguided souls who existed on the fringe of society. Not any more. In just a few years a fad has become what is now called a cultural phenomenon. According to some surveys, nearly 75% of Americans believe in angels. And a good percentage believe that they have had an encounter with one.

Angelic appearances are diverse. One woman says that her celestial visitor came in the form of a “huge golden being” others tell of spirits that come in light, bestowing inner peace or keeping them from harm. Others take on the form of a man to do their good deed and then apparently disappear.

Here are three typical stories.

When Hilary Russel, then age 6, ran into the rolling surf in a deserted area in Miami Beach, the frantic parents thought she would drown. But a dark-haired man of about 30 years of age appeared a few feet beyond her. He just “picked her out of the water and held her in his arms.” He strode through the waves effortlessly. He put the child in her parents arms and he was smiling. When the Russels embraced each other for joy, they looked back and the man was gone. Today they are convinced that their welcome visitor was “Hilary’s angel.”

Gary Forner had set out with three volunteers to save a stranded 15 year old climber. While he was looking for a place to tie the straps for the rescue lines, the cliff edge crumbled beneath him. “There was nothing there to stop me from falling” he says. Then suddenly as he was falling 30 or 40 feet down the 90 foot drop, he felt this tremendous force, pushing him back. He even felt warmth in his heart, “Like when you’re a kid, and you get hurt and your mom or dad pick you up and cuddle you. All I could think was, ‘sweet Jesus, thank you.’” Thankfully, he was able get to a network of tree roots to climb back up. “It was either God or an angel” he says. His partners who saw the cliff the next morning agreed that “divine intervention is really the only explanation.”

Kahn-Langer was healed while having exploratory surgery for a brain tumor. When she was wheeled into the operating room, she remembered that a golden being had come to her, and to the doctor’s surprise, on the day she was scheduled for surgery, the tumor was gone. Not only was she healed, but she now has the ability to see angels. She has even seen winged spirits, one massive angel over her partner, a clinical psychologist. He in turn believes that this angel is the being who healed him many years earlier. This being had come into his hospital room and sang the Hebrew, “Hear O Israel, the Lord my God, the Lord is One.” An out of body experience convinced him that he had been touched by an angel. Note 2

What do we make of all of this? Why do angels appear to some and not to others? Why is Hollywood fascinated with angel accessories, angel ornaments and angel books? Indeed, stores dedicated to angels are springing up all over the country and the profits are, well, “heavenly.” What is going on?

We will examine this phenomenon and answer questions such as:

What does this interest in angels say about our society’s understanding of God? Has such a phenomenon ever happened before? What do we know about angels that will help us interpret these interesting accounts? What are the implications of the Biblical teaching that there are two kinds of angels, and how shall we distinguish between them? Before we discuss angels, we must first discuss God. The reason is quite simple: our view of God will determine our view of angels. Every “angel story” carries with it a “God story;” tell me what you believe about angels and I will tell you what you believe about God.

Approaching God

Humanism simply does not satisfy the human heart. The Bible makes it clear that when people stop worshipping the true God they do not stop worshipping; they just change the object of their worship. Thus, as God has been eclipsed in our society, it is not surprising that people are turning toward spirituality of one kind or another. The desire is to make contact with some “higher power” or a very friendly god who can be accessed by anyone.

This new obsession with spirituality is now combined with the individualism of the West and the result is smorgasbord religion. Little wonder “Everyone believes that his own personal feelings are more important than the collective wisdom of the ages.” Note 3

If it is true, as Tozer has said, that what a man believes about God is the most important thing about him, it follows that the way we approach God reveals the kind of God we worship. In other words, if you tell me how you think God should be approached, I will tell you whether you believe in the Biblical deity or some figment of the human imagination. There are several stories in the Bible that illustrate this principle.

Cain brought an offering to the Lord that was “the fruit of the ground.” He thought that God should be satisfied with something creative, something fashioned from his own experience. Since he was a “tiller of the ground” he came to God in a way that reflected his own private interests.

Cain’s God was “seeker friendly” and just so long as one approached Him with sincerity and a loving disposition, He would be available for fellowship. This God was not narrow minded, but broad enough for people of all kinds, people with different creative ideas interests.

Cain was wrong, of course.

Abel brought “the firstlings of his flock” and he was accepted by God. Interestingly, it was not that Abel was better than Cain that he was accepted, rather it is because “the Lord had regard for his offering.” The question was not whether one man had sinned more greatly than the other (though that question is important for other reasons), but it was the quality of the offering that determined who was accepted or rejected.

In the New Testament, Jude warns against those who “go the way of Cain” that is, those who fashion their own way to approach God. He describes them as people who do not fear God, but are “caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; wild waves of the sea casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever” (Jude 12,13).

Cain was rejected by God for the simple reason that the holiness of God makes it impossible for us to come to God on our own creative terms. Abel was accepted because he offered the bloody sacrifice that God commanded. “By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain” (Hebrews 11:4).

The question people should ask today is: Do I approach God with a sacrifice that He will accept? Am I coming to Him in the right way? A God who accepts any sincere person, regardless of what he believes, is not the God Cain and Abel had come to know.

A similar story comes to us from the Tower of Babel. “Come, let us build for ourselves a city, and a tower whose top will reach into heaven, and let us make for ourselves a name; lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth” (Genesis 11:4).

If Cain represents a customized, individualized approach, Babel represents a societal approach, a belief that if we unite, we can get to God by climbing a ladder of our own making. They thought that if they built a tower, they would be spared from another flood. And, they could get to the heavens, if only their tower was high enough.

Instead of repenting of their sin and turning to God for mercy, they thought that they could overcome the consequences of their own rebellion by technological advancement. With meticulous plans and hard work, they could reach the heavens.

Associated with this project was astrology, an attempt to control one’s own destiny without turning to God. The religion of Babylon represents an alternative religion; it seeks to connect man to God on man’s terms.

God responded by coming down to them in judgment, scattering the people by confusing their language. God did not doubt their sincerity; He did not doubt their ability to build a tower. If they had known the Almighty better they would have understood a basic principle: every tower man builds to God comes infinitely short. Every success man has in building his pathway to God only gives him the false confidence that the goal is attainable.

God’s judgment was also an act of mercy; it forced mankind to realize that God cannot be approached according to man’s liking or design. If man is to be rescued, God must build a “tower” to earth; man cannot build one to God.

The third story takes place at Mount Sinai. God instructed the people that a mediator was needed. In fact, God told the people that they had better stay away from the mountain. The mountain was the scene of fire, thunder and a violent earthquake.

The people were warned to stay away. “Go down, warn the people, lest they break through to the Lord to gaze, and many of them perish” (Exodus 20:19:21). Then a boundary was set up around the mountain to make sure that the people would not come near and be struck dead. If an animal strayed past the boundary, it was to be put to death by an arrow or stoned to death without human hands touching it.

Modern man has no place for fear in approaching God. This is why so many reject the Old Testament; it presents a God who is woefully out of step with these enlightened times. People today want a direct encounter; they have the audacity to approach the mountain directly, just on the strength of their good intentions and personal merit.

The people of Israel were wise enough to say to Moses, “You speak to us and we will listen, but do not have God speak to us or we will die.” Michael Horton asks, “Can we, in our day, even conceive of a God whose presence so frightens worshippers that they beg for a mediator, knowing that if they go to God directly, they will perish?” Note 4

The Ten Commandments had just been given to Moses and Israel was dancing around a golden calf, choosing to fashion Jehovah after the gods that they had come to know in Egypt. They wanted a God with a face; they wanted to approach God in a more relevant way.

Keep in mind that the people were not worshipping a false God, but rather they were worshipping Jehovah in a false way. “We are worshipping Jehovah,” Aaron explained to Moses.

God judged the people severely for one good reason: He wanted them to know that it is not only necessary to worship the right God, but also to worship Him in the right way.

This is the great sin of our time: that anyone can approach God directly in his/her own way, without a mediator, without an acceptable sacrifice and without blood.

What does all this have to do with angels? Much, as we shall see in a moment.

Enter The Angels

In the early centuries there was a movement known as Gnosticism, (from the Greek word gnosis meaning knowledge). This school of thought believed that one could have a direct experience of God and achieve secret knowledge. It was also a movement that believed that one should incorporate angels in worship.

One could indeed be touched by an angel and make contact with beings who were on standby to help mortals. In fact, angels were more accessible than God. This heresy threatened the very existence of the Christian church.

Paul the apostle sometimes referred to these people as “super apostles,” not because they were unspiritual, but because they were too spiritual, too tuned into the spirit world, and too brazen in their assertion that they had experienced God. These were the teachers with the “higher knowledge,” the ones who talked convincingly of spiritual realities. These were the people who claimed to know God and angels better than Paul did!

Many writers believe that American religion has revived this old ancient heresy called Gnosticism. If this is the case, we had better know what the Gnostics believed. Here are a few details of their ever-changing creed.

1. Religious beliefs must be brought together, with no one belief dominating over the rest. Gnosticism was a big house, with room for many different religious viewpoints. They willingly incorporated bits and pieces of Christianity with popular culture and mystical theories. Could you find a better description of where we are today?

2. Personal experience was always superior to a doctrinal creed or objective belief. “Gnostic syncretism” says Philip Lee, “believes everything in general for the purpose of avoiding a belief in something particular. In the case of Christian Gnosticism, what is being avoided is the particularity of the Gospel, that which is a stumbling block to the Jews and folly to Gentiles.” Note 5

Spirituality, yes, specific beliefs, no. Religion should be all encompassing, all embracing. Christ is popular as a way to God, but not as the only way.

3. God is near and can be directly assessed. God could be found in the “inner man” available to all who would take the time to look deeply within their own selves.

4. Matter was evil and spirit was good. The self is imprisoned in the body and longs for freedom from it. Thus, Gnostics believed in “mind over matter.” Armed with the notion that matter was evil, Gnosticism attacked Christianity at its central point: The Word (Christ) could not have “become flesh.” If so, Gnostics argued, God would have become evil. Thus, the belief arose that Jesus only appeared to have a physical body.

And now for the angels!

5. This dualism, between matter and spirit led some Gnostics to the idea that strictly speaking, God could not have any contact with matter at all.

This notion that the incarnation could not have happened because God could not even have contact with matter, was combatted by John the Apostle when he wrote, “By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; and this is the spirit of antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world” (1 John 4:2,3).

Gnostics were faced with the question: how did God create the world, and how can we have contact with Him? Thus one school of thought said this: God is accessible but He can best be contacted by association with angels.

The Veneration of Angels

A movie which I did not see, but read about titled: Angels In The Outfield, tells the story of an eleven year old boy Roger, whose mother has just died and whose father has now rejected him. Longing for the family he once had, he seizes on his father’s cynical remark that they will all be together again when the L.A. Angel baseball team (hopelessly inept) wins the World Series.

So Roger prays to a god he does not know, and a god of whose existence he is unconvinced, and asks him/her for help to aid the L.A Angels so that his wish becomes true. It happens, of course, and God is to be thanked for sending “heavenly angels” to help the baseball team.

Welcome to the first century!

Paul had a word for people who called on angels to help them! “Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind” (Colossians 2:18).

What was the great danger of the church in the city of Colossae? There were those who invoked angels for protection, help and assistance. The phrase “worship of angels” could be translated, “veneration of angels” that is, calling on angels in magical invocations.

People called on angels as intermediaries of God to protect them from evil, to give them “inner light” and help them with daily affairs of daily life. Angels were called to help heal diseases and enlisted for success in business affairs.

These people did not speak ill of Christ. They just did not consider Him as the only mediator between God and man.

Devotees preferred angels to Christ because they could be more easily manipulated. Guardian angels were thought of as “good luck charms” for protection and getting things done. They were perceived to be more accessible than Christ and even more friendly.

Yes, history does repeat itself! If Gnosticism is the religion of America today, we should not be surprised that angels have made a remarkable comeback.

Anyone can be touched by an angel. Anyone can benefit from trying to make contact with heavenly beings. All this rests on a basic premise: God can be contacted without a mediator, without a sacrifice and without blood.

What are the dangers of this philosophy? What do angels know and do? What do angels think of the attention they are receiving? How do we interpret the miracle stories associated with them? To these matters we now turn.

Notes 1. People magazine, Dec. 22, 1997. 2. Ibid. 3. Michael Horton, In The Face of God (Dallas: Word, Pub. 1996), p.26. 4. Ibid., p.12. 5. Ibid., p.52.


TOPICS: Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant; Theology
KEYWORDS: angels
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Paul had a word for people who called on angels to help them! “Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind” (Colossians 2:18).

What was the great danger of the church in the city of Colossae? There were those who invoked angels for protection, help and assistance. The phrase “worship of angels” could be translated, “veneration of angels” that is, calling on angels in magical invocations.

People called on angels as intermediaries of God to protect them from evil, to give them “inner light” and help them with daily affairs of daily life. Angels were called to help heal diseases and enlisted for success in business affairs.

These people did not speak ill of Christ. They just did not consider Him as the only mediator between God and man.

Devotees preferred angels to Christ because they could be more easily manipulated. Guardian angels were thought of as “good luck charms” for protection and getting things done. They were perceived to be more accessible than Christ and even more friendly.


1 posted on 12/28/2010 9:35:11 AM PST by wmfights
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To: Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; GiovannaNicoletta; ...
Ping

It occurred to me it's interesting how the fascination with Angels has been replaced to some degree with a fixation on Mary.

2 posted on 12/28/2010 9:39:30 AM PST by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: wmfights

Just goes to show, lots of beliefs are relative.


3 posted on 12/28/2010 9:54:39 AM PST by stuartcr (When politicians politicize issues, aren't they just doing their job?)
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To: wmfights
What is an Angel or a spirit/Spirit for that matter?..
A being, a force, a myth, an invisible friend/enemy?..

Are there types of spirits?..
Is there good and bad spirits?..
Do animals or plants have spirits?.......
Is the Spirit(s) of God a committee?..

4 posted on 12/28/2010 10:05:57 AM PST by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole....)
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To: wmfights; Alamo-Girl; Amityschild; AngieGal; AnimalLover; Ann de IL; aposiopetic; aragorn; auggy; ..

The best angels book I’ve ever read is still the one by

AoG Pastor of First Assembly of God of Boise Idaho:

Roland Buck [Buck knife family]’s

ANGELS ON ASSIGNMENT:

http://www.angelsonassignment.org/

Available tor ead free online at above link.

He would likely agree with your points . . . at least most of them.

I do expect angels to be appearing more and more in this END TIMES ERA.

It is important to treat them as mere messengers vs jr gods.

It is very important to not be seduced by fallen angels or anyone or anything else that does NOT acknowledge that Jesus came in the flesh and the basic doctrines of the Faith.

I will note that our very own Angel-Gal/Alamo-Girl found the book worth reading, once upon a time.


5 posted on 12/28/2010 10:06:56 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: stuartcr

Are you absolutely sure that “lots of beliefs are relative?


6 posted on 12/28/2010 10:09:18 AM PST by caww
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To: Quix; wmfights
It is very important to not be seduced by fallen angels or anyone or anything else that does NOT acknowledge that Jesus came in the flesh and the basic doctrines of the Faith.

This then indicates one communicates with angels or spirits which is to walk a very dangerous line Quix...not to mention those of inquiring minds can and are deceived who seek communication in the spirit world......... These experiences oftentimes create desire for more and anticipation of these.... ones faith then and over time rests in these encounters rather than on Christ.

There are many counterfeits and deceptions occurring these days ...with the focus on the individual and what they experience in the spiritual realm rather than on Christ.

Further God has stated that as time moves forward to the end times and events thereof..it will be a time of great deceptions. Our world today is ripe for this.

7 posted on 12/28/2010 10:22:34 AM PST by caww
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To: wmfights
the fascination with Angels has been replaced to some degree with a fixation on Mary.

It's as much the enemy of men's souls diversion as those who seek and venerate anything or anyone other than Christ. The two most vicious attacks against our Savior is creating doubt of Gods word as our final authority and standard...and redirecting ones attention to "other" attractive figures in which to de-throne Christ from His rightful place. ...which includes angel worship as well as Mary worship.

Jesus Christ does not share His throne with any other nor does He accept a "divided allegiance".

8 posted on 12/28/2010 10:30:55 AM PST by caww
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To: caww

Our FOCUS IS TO BE KEPT ON CHRIST, CERTAINLY.

However, GOD CHOOSES to use His angels in diverse ways. We would be foolish to resist their carrying out His orders in some direct, overt contact with us.

Scripture exhorts us to be wise about entertaining God’s angels unwittingly.

Angels are typically sent to communicate and to serve us at God’s Direction. They are not, per se, vallets, gardeners, our servants and must not be treated that way.

Folks with a proper FOCUS ON CHRIST are not likely to get caught up in wrong attitudes toward angels.


9 posted on 12/28/2010 10:34:01 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: caww
It's as much the enemy of men's souls diversion as those who seek and venerate anything or anyone other than Christ. The two most vicious attacks against our Savior is creating doubt of Gods word as our final authority and standard...and redirecting ones attention to "other" attractive figures in which to de-throne Christ from His rightful place.

Well said!

What's so interesting to me is this desire for an alternate mediator has existed from the beginning of Christianity.

10 posted on 12/28/2010 10:41:42 AM PST by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: caww; Quix
This then indicates one communicates with angels or spirits which is to walk a very dangerous line Quix...not to mention those of inquiring minds can and are deceived who seek communication in the spirit world.........

The occult is among the quickest ways to damnation.

Where I think people fall into this trap is by assuming that Angels that appear to be good actually are.

11 posted on 12/28/2010 10:49:18 AM PST by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: caww

Yes. Name a belief that is not relative to another belief, instance or observation.


12 posted on 12/28/2010 10:50:31 AM PST by stuartcr (When politicians politicize issues, aren't they just doing their job?)
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To: Quix
You are correct that it is God who “CHOOSES” use of His Angels and directs them according to His good purposes. But I see nothing in scripture which encourages us to communicate with them. In fact few who can discern if Angels or one who masquerades as such.

As to “entertaining angels unaware”....the idea is watch how you treat others....but the key word is “unaware”. We aren't going to be aware this is the case.

I do know people who have served and loved God very well who have fallen for deceptions in the spirit world..including a belief they are intended to assist angels in the heavenly battles. Of course this is the imaginations of their own mind. But you can be certain they believe they are doing just that. Thus their faith has shipwrecked and they have been further lead into the spirit world.

Yes, I certainly know that God uses His angels on our behalf. I do not believe we should seek nor desire communication with them..KNOWINGLY. Being 'unaware' is one thing...but to deliberately seek is another and God has made clear we should not do so.

13 posted on 12/28/2010 10:51:44 AM PST by caww
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To: wmfights

THE OCCULT IS CERTAINLY TO BE AVOIDED.

The occult persistently counterfeits the authentic.

Allowing the occult to cross off any of God’s doings is a faulty response and a flawed construction on reality.


14 posted on 12/28/2010 10:51:54 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: caww

i AGREE

IT IS WISE TO SEEK ONLY GOD

AND AVOID

seeking

per se

angelic anythings.


15 posted on 12/28/2010 11:07:04 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: caww

Nevertheless.

IF AND WHEN

GOD sends one or a lot of HIS ANGELS to my side in an overt way . . . confirming that they are His . . .

I will NOT slam the door in their face.

I also believe that it will likely be angels who appear at our doors in—in millions of cases—saying

COME! as in Lot leaving Soddom etc.

And we’d best heed immediately; not look back; etc.


16 posted on 12/28/2010 11:08:40 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: wmfights

Certainly satanic angels of light are to be avoided regardless of their appearances.

I’ve never known of a case of an authentic earnest Christian being fooled by a counterfeit angel.

Logically there might well be such, I’ve just never known of any.


17 posted on 12/28/2010 11:10:15 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: wmfights
Modern man has no place for fear in approaching God. This is why so many reject the Old Testament; it presents a God who is woefully out of step with these enlightened times. People today want a direct encounter; they have the audacity to approach the mountain directly, just on the strength of their good intentions and personal merit.

[...]

They wanted a God with a face; they wanted to approach God in a more relevant way.

Keep in mind that the people were not worshipping a false God, but rather they were worshipping Jehovah in a false way. “We are worshipping Jehovah,” Aaron explained to Moses.

God judged the people severely for one good reason: He wanted them to know that it is not only necessary to worship the right God, but also to worship Him in the right way.

This is the great sin of our time: that anyone can approach God directly in his/her own way, without a mediator, without an acceptable sacrifice and without blood.
(emphasis mine, throughout)

Hmmm... a call to orthodoxy... VERY TRUE. Very needful.

But one must be careful whose orthodoxy one is called to... And transversely, if one is calling something orthodox, It had better be found to be scriptural, lest one wind up preaching another christ - much as the arrogance of the Roman church, and like it.

Probably not what you were looking for from the OP, but that is the first thing I see. Good post.

18 posted on 12/28/2010 11:16:52 AM PST by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit)
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To: Quix
confirming that they are His

How will you know?...The reason I ask this is it would seem when God sends His Angels for us it won't be a matter of our confirming....He knows who are His and we can trust that when we are called home it will be just that...He comes for us...the choice was made prior the event.

19 posted on 12/28/2010 12:01:11 PM PST by caww
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To: Quix
There is only ONE mediator between God and man, there is only ONE way to GOD, and that is through and by Jesus Christ our LORD....
Jesus said himself, " I am THE WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE, no man can come to the father, but by me " .....
Able's sacrifice represented a foreshadow of what is or was to come.
Jesus Christ is our one time only and only accepted by the father fleshly blooded sacrifice that GOD the father will only accept.
Not by merit, not by works as Cain's Way, not by personal manufactured self righteousness, but, by the fleshly blooded body of our LORD Jesus Christ.
Sorry folks, those who approach GOD in their own self righteousness, or works, or their own merit:
GOD WILL NOT ACCEPT IT !!
Stop trying to justify yourselves in front of a HOLY GOD !
You will never, never be able, nor can you justify yourselves in the sight of GOD.
The LORD will say to you at the last day " I never knew you " ...
It is by GRACE that we are saved through faith in our LORD Jesus Christ.

Oh yeah, we will get the predictable talking points of those works based salvationers.. " well what about " faith without works is dead ? " to justify their self righteousness and merit.
The writer was talking about putting your faith into action, GOD freely gives his grace and mercy, so we must ( ACT, as in action, working to get ) FREELY receive his grace and mercy.
Faith without works is dead is the same as when Jesus said to the apostles " ohh you of little faith " ....

20 posted on 12/28/2010 12:10:23 PM PST by American Constitutionalist (The fool has said in his heart, " there is no GOD " ..)
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To: caww
God's very own “ elect “ will not be deceived.
21 posted on 12/28/2010 12:12:49 PM PST by American Constitutionalist (The fool has said in his heart, " there is no GOD " ..)
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To: stuartcr
But in saying that....”lots of beliefs are relative” and that you ‘absolutely believe this.... you have made an absolute statement—which itself implies the existence of absolutes. .....Are you are then saying that the very fact there is no absolute truth is the one and only absolute truth??? ...which becomes a problem of self-contradiction.

People holding this view believe everything is relative to something else, ...... there can be no actual reality. Because of that, there are ultimately no moral absolutes,.... no authority for deciding if an action is positive or negative, right or wrong...... This view leads to “situational ethics,” the belief that what is right or wrong is relative to the situation. There is no right or wrong; therefore, whatever feels or seems right at the time and in that situation is right.

Of course, situational ethics leads to, “whatever feels good” mentality and lifestyle, which has a devastating effect on society and individuals. This is postmodernism..... creating a society that regards all values, beliefs, lifestyles, and truth claims as equally valid.

A person cannot logically say, “There is no God” (even though many do so), because, in order to make such a statement, he would need to have absolute knowledge of the entire universe from beginning to end. Since that is impossible, the most anyone can logically say is “With the limited knowledge I have, I do not believe there is a God.”

22 posted on 12/28/2010 12:21:09 PM PST by caww
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To: Quix
" Angels are typically sent to communicate and to serve us at God’s Direction. They are not, per se, vallets, gardeners, our servants and must not be treated that way. "

God's true HOLY unfallen angels are there for his service, they serve him, and GOD sends them to serve us on his bidding.
God charges them to protect us, also, GOD can use them if he does so choose to minister to us.... but, for the most part, they are sent as messengers... but, ALL of God's children, his chosen ones should ALL WAYS be lead by the HOLY spirit.
Also, direct communication, and approach to GOD should be through and by our mediator and our LORD Jesus Christ.
We don't pray to human priest, or ministers, we don't pray to angels, we pray directly to GOD through his son our LORD Jesus Christ.....
Remember ? Nothing but the blood of Jesus Christ.

23 posted on 12/28/2010 12:22:31 PM PST by American Constitutionalist (The fool has said in his heart, " there is no GOD " ..)
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To: caww

OK, I’ll take back the absolutely part. Why did you even put it your question? Just to play a game?

Let’s get back to the original question. Have you been able to come up with an answer?


24 posted on 12/28/2010 12:25:36 PM PST by stuartcr (When politicians politicize issues, aren't they just doing their job?)
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To: wmfights
interesting to me is this desire for an alternate mediator has existed from the beginning of Christianity.

Yes, exactly because man has difficulty believing in the full and complete sufficiency of Christ. He is not enough for them without themselves climbing up their own Babylon ladder. That's why so many counterfeit churches have ladders of attainment to somehow find "enlightenment". These are attractive to those who have a need to 'climb' the mountain of success with their own efforts..... It diverts them from the scripture and from Christ as means of being 'acceptable' because they have scaled thru these with or with out 'passing grades'....Mormonism is ripe with them as are many false religions and cults..

25 posted on 12/28/2010 12:27:36 PM PST by caww
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To: Quix
I had a discussion once about entertaining angels unawares.

Hebrews 13:2" Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by doing that some have entertained angels without knowing it."

My friend thought I was off. I said by giving we recieve from Christ too. Well guess what happen?

A stranger comes to his door asking for food or milk or sandwich just anything to eat. We let him in gave him to eat. What a lesson that was from scripture. He was astonished. He never had that happen before.

I also have given money to a stranger at times on my old route. I gave to a woman who was low on gas. She was standing next to me far away from the car. When my scanner beeped I looked down then up within seconds the car and the person was gone. I was asking Jesus for an answer to pray. Boy did I get the answer!

Praise Jesus!

AMEN! AMEN!

26 posted on 12/28/2010 12:27:45 PM PST by johngrace (God so loved the world so he gave his only son! Praise Jesus and Hail Mary!)
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To: JAKraig

pingalingaling


27 posted on 12/28/2010 12:28:04 PM PST by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: wmfights
interesting to me is this desire for an alternate mediator has existed from the beginning of Christianity.

Yes, exactly because man has difficulty believing in the full and complete sufficiency of Christ. He is not enough for them without themselves climbing up their own Babylon ladder. That's why so many counterfeit churches have ladders of attainment. and their honored prophets or leadership figures..... to somehow find "enlightenment".

These are attractive to those who have a need to 'climb' the mountain of success with their own efforts..... It diverts them from the scripture and from Christ as means of being 'acceptable' because they have scaled thru these with or with out 'passing grades'....Mormonism is ripe with them as are many false religions and cults..

28 posted on 12/28/2010 12:30:45 PM PST by caww
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To: American Constitutionalist
God's very own “ elect “ will not be deceived.

If they are one could easily question if they are His in the first place. I have seen those who are convinced they are His and yet fallen prey to false religions of deception. The enemy of men's souls is cunning. But I have also seen those deceived who one day recognize that deception and come back to the Lord without that baggage. But it is a long and difficult journey for the most part.

29 posted on 12/28/2010 12:36:47 PM PST by caww
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To: American Constitutionalist
his chosen ones should ALL WAYS be lead by the HOLY spirit. Also, direct communication, and approach to GOD should be through and by our mediator and our LORD Jesus Christ. We don't pray to human priest, or ministers, we don't pray to angels, we pray directly to GOD through his son our LORD Jesus Christ..... Remember ? Nothing but the blood of Jesus Christ.

Exactly.....He is our only mediator...all communication is directed thru Him.

30 posted on 12/28/2010 12:40:45 PM PST by caww
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To: stuartcr
Name a belief that is not relative to another belief, instance or observation.
31 posted on 12/28/2010 12:44:09 PM PST by caww
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To: wmfights
" What's so interesting to me is this desire for an alternate mediator has existed from the beginning of Christianity. "

That's because GOD's way through Christ is so strict, so narrow, and that mankind has a inability to accept the fact that all of us are guilty in front of a HOLY GOD and are not willing to come to a end of themselves and ask for GOD's mercy and grace alone in Jesus Christ.
That's why many people won't or will not accept Christ, because they do not want to humble themselves and admit to GOD that they are wrong, that they are guilty are worthy of eternal punishment and damnation in hell.
They are not willing to believe that GOD provided a way out, and that is Jesus Christ.
Another element in that is that man kind has a bad habit to think that some how man still has to put his own 2 cents worth in their effort to their salvation.. some how they feel they have a need of their own effort to be accepted by GOD, and in this article, Cain's efforts was not accepted by GOD, ABLE's was.
Cain's sacrificed was made by his own hands, ABLE's was made by GOD himself.
32 posted on 12/28/2010 12:45:04 PM PST by American Constitutionalist (The fool has said in his heart, " there is no GOD " ..)
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To: Quix
" I’ve never known of a case of an authentic earnest Christian being fooled by a counterfeit angel.

Logically there might well be such, I’ve just never known of any. "

That's why we have the HOLY spirit to guild us, to teach us, to bring things to our remembrance, and to comfort us.
33 posted on 12/28/2010 12:50:38 PM PST by American Constitutionalist (The fool has said in his heart, " there is no GOD " ..)
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To: caww

The bible tells us to test the spirits to see whether they are from GOD or not.... if they do not confess that Jesus Christ came in the flesh, then, they are not from GOD.


34 posted on 12/28/2010 12:53:26 PM PST by American Constitutionalist (The fool has said in his heart, " there is no GOD " ..)
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To: stuartcr
Have you been able to come up with an answer?

Well that would be better answered by those who do believe in moral relativism and or situational ethics...which I do not.

But most religions hijack something in one form or another from the Jewish Faith, or Christianity, or both. They do so because Christianity is attractive and has proved time and again that Christianity changes the heart and soul of men... is a matter of the heart and soul of an individual and His relationship with Christ Jesus.

Most religions otherwise are a matter of "climbing" up their ladder of successfully reaching some form of enlightenment...and efforts of their own to win approval from their leadership.

In Christianity it is all about the man Christ Jesus...and BTW the only religion who serves a risen Savior...all other religions serve or honor dead people. Although the Jewish people are holding out for their Messiah...but will, recognize one day as Jesus Christ.

35 posted on 12/28/2010 12:59:28 PM PST by caww
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To: American Constitutionalist
I believe this is about identifying if a person is a believer in Christ or not. We also have the witness of His Spirit bearing witness to this. Sometimes it is not always obvious as religions today borrow so much from Christianity and use it's verbiage. One can be fooled if they are not well acquainted with Gods Word. We know when Christ was tempted the enemy used scripture.... Though often distorts or misuses it, if one has not an association with the scriptures and a relationship with Christ they can be tricked and are. Many times those young in the faith are targets as well.
36 posted on 12/28/2010 1:06:40 PM PST by caww
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To: caww

Isn’t that what I asked earlier?


37 posted on 12/28/2010 1:12:24 PM PST by stuartcr (When politicians politicize issues, aren't they just doing their job?)
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To: caww
”lots of beliefs are relative” ...however, just because they are relitive ( as in ? someone's how little world and mind ) does not make it so, or right, or the truth....

We can have knowledge of what is absolute truth....

Jesus Christ said " I am the way, the truth, and the life , no man can come to the father , but, by me " .....

A person cannot logically say, “There is no God” (even though many do so), because, in order to make such a statement, he would need to have absolute knowledge of the entire universe from beginning to end. Since that is impossible, the most anyone can logically say is “With the limited knowledge I have, I do not believe there is a God.”

That my friend, you are so correct.
The Atheists either have some great ability to travel across time, space, and the universe, or posses the ability to know all things at all times, or have some extra-enternal ability greater than GOD ( therefore, making themselves as gods ), or? they just do not know, and refuse to believe the truth.
As the bible says " The fool hath said in his heart " there is no GOD " .... so what ever a atheist says or thinks is such foolishness... how any other way can you put it ?
38 posted on 12/28/2010 1:14:34 PM PST by American Constitutionalist (The fool has said in his heart, " there is no GOD " ..)
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To: American Constitutionalist
mankind has a inability to accept the fact that all of us are guilty in front of a HOLY GOD and are not willing to come to a end of themselves and ask for GOD's mercy and grace alone in Jesus Christ.

Although this is quite true..it is here that the conviction of the Holy Spirit comes in. It is indeed Gods work when He convicts us. And we must remember each has their appointed time. God knows when this is and if or not they will be receptive. Often it does take more than one encounter of truth to the heart and mind. Even His disciples did not get the truth right away.

39 posted on 12/28/2010 1:18:20 PM PST by caww
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To: caww

You can’t answer my questions, and I can’t answer yours the way each of us wants, because each of our beliefs are relative to something different. That’s the way it’s always been and probably will be.

I think the belief that a man has risen from the dead, is what trumps all other religious beliefs. Everyone knows death, and to have a figurehead that can beat death, that’s a biggy. Can’t be topped so far.


40 posted on 12/28/2010 1:19:03 PM PST by stuartcr (When politicians politicize issues, aren't they just doing their job?)
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To: stuartcr

answered post #35


41 posted on 12/28/2010 1:20:11 PM PST by caww
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To: American Constitutionalist

I agree. The same could probably be said about those that say there absolutely is a God also. In all honesty, we should probably all say, “With the limited knowledge I have, I do believe there is a God.”


42 posted on 12/28/2010 1:23:12 PM PST by stuartcr (When politicians politicize issues, aren't they just doing their job?)
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To: caww

Remember, Our Lord Jesus Christ knows whom are his, and none of them will he ever lose.


43 posted on 12/28/2010 1:23:53 PM PST by American Constitutionalist (The fool has said in his heart, " there is no GOD " ..)
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To: American Constitutionalist
or have some extra-enternal ability greater than GOD ( therefore, making themselves as gods

Many in the New Age Spirituality movement believe they have such an ability and that they do indeed become as God...which their practices are rooted in Eastern religions. Hinduism, Buddists, and Gurus of that sort.

These experiences they have, which for the most part are imaginations in their mind and not real, are what keep people away from Christ...though they imagine Him a part of and the one allowing these experiences.

Athiests are far easier to speak the truth to than those involved in counterfeit faiths. The fact they are resisting God evidences they must believe that He is...or who are they fighting?

44 posted on 12/28/2010 1:29:22 PM PST by caww
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To: caww
" I have seen those who are convinced they are His and yet fallen prey to false religions of deception. "

It's one thing to imagine and to think that you are his own, and one of his, it's a totally different thing to " KNOW " that you are his, and to have confirmation to back it up.
Those who imagine and think that they are his, and or his own, will one day stand before the LORD and will say to the LORD, LORD ? did we not preach the Gospel for you ? did we not prophesy in your name ? heal the sick, heal the blind, do all these good deeds in your name ? ( remember when Jesus talked about the tares among the wheat ? ) ....
Then, the LORD will say to those, I never knew you !
45 posted on 12/28/2010 1:31:32 PM PST by American Constitutionalist (The fool has said in his heart, " there is no GOD " ..)
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To: stuartcr

This will be my third and final post as you are not paying attention...your question was answered in post #35.


46 posted on 12/28/2010 1:31:46 PM PST by caww
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To: American Constitutionalist
Then, the LORD will say to those, I never knew you!

That is what's so frightening when ministering to those folks. They do believe they "KNOW" Him....and that these so called spiritual experiences confirm such...when in fact they are believing a lie....a masquarade and counterfeit experiences, which to them are very real...and they 'believe' they are real. Therefore you are battling a "belief" just the same...even though it's not reality.

47 posted on 12/28/2010 1:41:00 PM PST by caww
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To: caww
" If they are one could easily question if they are His in the first place. I have seen those who are convinced they are His and yet fallen prey to false religions of deception. The enemy of men's souls is cunning. But I have also seen those deceived who one day recognize that deception and come back to the Lord without that baggage. But it is a long and difficult journey for the most part. "

There are a lot of people in the church who are not his own.
Got to be on guard, many people can say many things, but, it does not make it so.
Many people can say many things that ? they either like to hear themselves say, or what other people like to hear them say, but, still ? it does not make it so.
People can fake being a Christian, you know, buying bibles, plastering Christian books and Christian pictures, all kinds of things Christian all over their house, and go to church every Sunday, don't smoke, don't cuss, you know, you have seen them, the " PROPER " " Christian " ....
It's not what you do that makes you one of Christ's, who whom you are.
48 posted on 12/28/2010 1:41:58 PM PST by American Constitutionalist (The fool has said in his heart, " there is no GOD " ..)
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To: stuartcr

There are several stories of persons who died and were raised again to life, even in the Tanakh/Old Testament. The difference with the resurrection of Jesus centers on Whom He IS, how He told many before His death that He would raise Himself in three days following His death, and what He did following His resurrection. It is written in scripture that death could not hold Him. He IS alive forever more ... as best we can tell, all the other ones raised from death of their body eventually died int heir bodies, whereas Jesus ascended and is still alive as our Priest forever, making intercession for us in the Holy of Holies.


49 posted on 12/28/2010 1:48:48 PM PST by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: Quix
Note that in all the cases of angels appearing to people in the Bible, one of the first things from their mouths is, "Don't be afraid." Note also that if the person to whom they are appearing bows down to worship, they invariably say, "Get up." And, given the story of Zacharias, you don't want to make them mad.
50 posted on 12/28/2010 1:56:35 PM PST by Othniel (There is no god named Allah, and Mohammed is its false prophet.)
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