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Jerusalem, Mother of Harlots
American Vision ^ | December 31, 2010 | Joel McDurmon

Posted on 12/31/2010 9:03:44 PM PST by topcat54

By | Published:

Jesus told his listeners, “The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof” (Matt. 21:43). For many people, this verse provides the heart of “replacement theology”—the idea that the Christian Church has replaced the old physical nation of Israel as God’s chosen people and priestly nation (1 Pet. 2:9–10, et al).

Without requiring the use of the label “replacement,” this is essentially what the verse teaches. It does not mean that Jewish people can never again taste of God’s grace, it simply means that the Old Jewish way of God’s witness and work on earth—the Old Testament Temple ritual system—was being abolished. It was being abolished because it was never meant to be permanent, but only a symbol that pointed to the reality of Jesus Christ, the true Temple, the true Emanuel. Those Jews who rejected the true Temple and insisted on clinging to the Old Testament traditions were thereby committing idolatry just as grossly as any pagan ritual. The Kingdom had moved on to its greater fulfillment. Those who refused to embrace the fulfillment found themselves bereft of the true kingdom—it would be taken from them, and given to the disciples of the true and faithful people of God.

Jesus denounced the teachers of the Old tradition which led the way in opposing Him. These were the Pharisees, and Christ’s denunciation of them appears in Matthew 23 among other places. It extends to the whole of the physical city of Jerusalem of which they were representatives in disbelief. Jesus concluded with the prediction that Jerusalem would fall because she was responsible for “all the righteous blood shed upon earth” and that she was “the city that kills the prophets” (Matt. 23:35, 37).

Mystery Babylon

From this sweeping condemnation we can learn that the city called “Babylon” in Revelation 17 and 18 is not the Babylon of Nebuchadnezzar, but Jerusalem called Babylon because she had corrupted herself and become like that ancient pagan Empire:

The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet [colors of the chief priest and the Temple; Ex. 25–28; 38–39], and adorned with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immorality. And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth’s abominations” (Rev. 17:4–5).

And how do we know this blasphemous Babylonian “mystery” whore is indeed Jerusalem? Because she is pronounced guilty of the exclusive crime which Jesus earlier pinned on Jerusalem:

And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.… Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, So will Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence, and will be found no more.… And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slain on earth (Rev. 17:6, 18:21, 24).

It is not possible that two cities can both be guilty of a crime of which only one party could be guilty—killing all the prophets and all who have been slain in the earth. Jesus clearly attributed this crime to Jerusalem in Matthew 23; so we must conclude that here in Revelation, “Babylon” is a “name of mystery” because it symbolizes what Jerusalem had become.

Thus, it is highly likely that when Peter wrote his first epistle from “Babylon” (1 Pet. 5:13), he was literally writing from Jerusalem, which he had by then already condemned “in these last times” (1 Pet. 1:20) as Babylon. Peter was, after all, an apostle to the Circumcision as Paul said (Gal. 2:7).

It was not uncommon practice in that window between Christ’s ascension and Jerusalem’s destruction that the New Testament writers symbolized Jerusalem with the names of the great enemies of God’s people down through the ages. Thus, Revelation speaks of “the great city” where the “Lord was crucified”—obviously Jerusalem—“that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt” (Rev. 11:8).

Some would complain that interpreting the Great Whore of Babylon of Revelation 17 as Jerusalem is anti-Semitic. This is ad hominem nonsense. Besides, how anti-Semitic was it of John! Calling Jerusalem “Sodom” and “Egypt” instead of praying for her peace as dispensationalists demand we do. The nerve of him.

Thus it is understandable when Paul compares the false teachers creeping in the church to Pharaoh’s magicians (2 Tim. 3:8–9). Likewise, Matthew 2 presents Jesus as the New Israel fleeing from the new Pharaoh who kills all the male babies. Except the roles are reversed: Jesus’ family has to flee into Egypt in order to avoid this new Pharaoh, who is Herod; and the children killed are not Egyptian, they are Jewish. Lesson: Old Israel has become like Egypt, the persecutor of God’s people, and she shall suffer the plague of Egypt, while Jesus is the true Israel.

Keep in mind, it was Herod who then ruled Jerusalem and who had rebuilt the Temple at which the Jews then sacrificed. Once Jesus appeared on the scene as the Final Sacrifice, the sacrifices at the Temple became idolatrous and pagan. It was then rejecting God to continue that system. It was, in fact, to commit the abomination of desolation, because it was an idolatrous sacrifice in the Temple which caused God’s presence to leave that House desolate. Indeed, God’s presence would forever leave that Temple to dwell in the New Temple, His People. This occurred on the day of Pentecost. Within a generation, the idolatrous, adulterous nation—the great whore temple in Jerusalem—suffered a final blow from God. It was destroyed into oblivion.

Thus it is further understandable that the inspired writers would refer to their persecutors and false brethren in their Church as “them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan” (Rev. 2:9).

Conclusion

Modern day Christians simply do not understand that when they demand the land of Israel for the Old Jewish people so that they may rebuild a Temple and resume sacrifices, they are praying for the rankest and vilest of idolatries to occur. God destroyed that temple for that very reason in AD 70. Why would he now change and desire it to be rebuilt?

You may think that since God did this once before, sending His people into exile with their temple destroyed behind them, then He will do the same again—have them return to rebuild the temple. But this time was different. This time the True Temple came as the rebuilt (resurrected) temple. This time there would be no bricks and mortar, stones cut out with hands. The Old Jewish people were not merely exiled from their kingdom someday to return. No. This time, the kingdom was taken from them and given to the true nation.

Christ created a new bride. Why would Christ desire to return to the whore he has cast aside and divorced when He has a pristine Bride descending from heaven, uncorrupted by idolatry? He didn’t. He left that whore riding her patron, the beast of Rome. And the great mother of harlots suffered the judgment of her whoredom. She was divorced and disinherited. The inheritance now belongs to the Bride.


Permission to reprint granted by American Vision P.O. Box 220, Powder Springs, GA 30127, 800-628-9460.


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: antisemitic; antisemitism; badtheology; catholic; eschatology; idolatry; paganism; roman
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1 posted on 12/31/2010 9:03:47 PM PST by topcat54
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To: ItsOurTimeNow; HarleyD; suzyjaruki; nobdysfool; jkl1122; Calvinist_Dark_Lord; Dr. Eckleburg; ...
Reformed Eschatology Ping List (REPL)
Biblically Optimistic and Gospel-Based

"For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Luke 21:22)

2 posted on 12/31/2010 9:07:44 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: topcat54

> This time, the kingdom was taken from them and given to
> the true nation.

You mean the Paleostinians?

That’s who gets the land if Israel is eradicated.

Besides, we still have the prophesies Rev 11-17 to be fulfulled.


3 posted on 12/31/2010 9:21:44 PM PST by Westbrook (Having children does not divide your love, it multiplies it.)
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To: topcat54

The desire to have The Kingdom of God on Earth dies hard even as Jesus called it the Kingdom of the Heavens.


4 posted on 12/31/2010 9:45:18 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: topcat54

Looks painful, pulling such a large theology from one’s fanny.

Start with Zech. 14, then Ezek. 36-48. There are too many references to the land, places, boundaries, the temple, the city, nations, specifically named nations, and physical blessings for the nation of Israel.

Reformed theology has done the Christian world much good. Reformed eschatology, on the other hand, is brownies and dog poo in a blender.


5 posted on 12/31/2010 10:31:37 PM PST by lurk
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To: topcat54

“Mystery Babylon” is the revived Roman empire (EU) with which the catholic church will be part of in the future.

To say that it is Jerusalem risible.


6 posted on 12/31/2010 10:50:35 PM PST by kingpins10
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To: topcat54

To say that God has cast off the Jews (Jerusalem) goes against what is in the old and new testament. The Jews will be “grafted in” again at the beginning of the millenial kingdom.

Anyone who believes that God has made Himself a liar by breaking His promise to Abraham is deceived.


7 posted on 12/31/2010 10:54:10 PM PST by kingpins10
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To: topcat54

Rome was defeated and re-defeated several times and is now falling apart again (globalism). Just let it go. ;-)


8 posted on 12/31/2010 10:59:42 PM PST by familyop (cbt. engr. (cbt), NG, '89-' 96, Duncan Hunter or no-vote.)
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To: topcat54

uhmm...the Kingdom of Israel was divided into two houses, the House of Judah and the House of Israel. In Hosea, we are told Yahweh divorced the House of Israel but never are we told He divorced the House of Judah. These are the Jewish people today, the House of Judah.

History doesn’t shine a good light on your Biblical opinion.


9 posted on 12/31/2010 11:30:40 PM PST by ladyL
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To: topcat54
Modern day Christians simply do not understand that when they demand the land of Israel for the Old Jewish people so that they may rebuild a Temple and resume sacrifices, they are praying for the rankest and vilest of idolatries to occur.

Oops. Someone forgot to tell the first disciples. They kept on worshipping in that "rankest" Temple. In Acts 22, Paul goes to the Temple to offer sacrifices for the end of a Nazarite vow. A careful look at the Greek verb tenses in the book of Hebrews reveal not only a functioning earthly Temple, but one that was efficacious in the First Century (English translators, not able to deal with the truth CHANGE the verbs to past tense)...So those closest to the source (Messiah Himself), were so badly confused?

You see, this is what happens when people trust their theology more than the actual words of Scripture.
10 posted on 01/01/2011 6:11:43 AM PST by Tzfat
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To: ladyL
History doesn’t shine a good light on your Biblical opinion.

Neither does Scripture. We are told repeatedly that "this is a statute forever," so the Supercessionist says "forever" just means "a long time" so, I guess their promised "eternal life" is just "to an old age" too. the fact is that the Prophets are replete with references to curses that will come upon those who attempt to deny the inheritance to Israel.

Supercessionim is nothing less than anti-Semitsm with a religious face (Luther, Calvin, along with most ante-Nicean fathers were famously anti-Semitic - to make Hitler proud). To be anti-Semitic is to be anti-G-d.
11 posted on 01/01/2011 6:20:33 AM PST by Tzfat
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To: Tzfat

> To be anti-Semitic is to be anti-G-d.

Amen.

Genesis 12:3
And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse
him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Revelation 7:1-8 hasn’t happened yet.

1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.


12 posted on 01/01/2011 7:10:20 AM PST by Westbrook (Having children does not divide your love, it multiplies it.)
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To: topcat54

The other point about the Temple is that there is no prophecy for Herod’s temple to be rebuilt. Jesus said it would be destroyed and there is no prophecy where it is rebuilt.

The End-Times guys say that the prophecy about rebuilding that Temple is really a ‘double-reference’ prophecy from the Old Testament. And that is just hogwash. There are no prophecies in the history of Scripture that are intended to be multi-referenced. To have a multi-reference prophecy makes prophecy meaningless.


13 posted on 01/01/2011 7:11:56 AM PST by webstersII
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To: kingpins10

“The Jews will be “grafted in” again at the beginning of the millenial kingdom.”

How many Jews keep the law? Where’s the burned animal sacrifices today?


14 posted on 01/01/2011 7:28:02 AM PST by Rebelbase ( Islam is a mental disorder.)
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To: topcat54

Context? I believe Jesus ,that Rabbi from Nazareth was teaching in the Temple and the Priests and Elders came to Him there- Verse 43 is understood in light of that context—and I believe refers to Isaiah 66:7-14. But as The apostle Paul taught the believers at Rome (11:) God hath not put away His people.(see v.1) and ‘If the first fruits be holy,the lump is also holy: if the root be holy ,so are the branches...(see v16 and c.) I cannot believe replacement theology in the notion that God has cast aside His chosen people.


15 posted on 01/01/2011 7:28:51 AM PST by StonyBurk (ring)
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To: Westbrook
You mean the Paleostinians?

Think biblically. “Kingdom” and “nation” do not equate to some dusty parcel of land.

Besides, we still have the prophesies Rev 11-17 to be fulfulled.

We do? Who told you that?

16 posted on 01/01/2011 7:58:03 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: kingpins10; RJR_fan; Lee N. Field
“Mystery Babylon” is the revived Roman empire (EU) with which the catholic church will be part of in the future.

That's theory's been around since Hal Lindsey was still on his second wife and it make no more sense today than it did 40 years ago.

17 posted on 01/01/2011 8:01:27 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: kingpins10
To say that God has cast off the Jews (Jerusalem) goes

God has not cast off the Jewish people. Paul makes that quite clear in the book of Romans. They are being brought into the kingdom every day by faith in Jesus Christ, the faith of their father Abraham. These elect Jews along with their gentile brethren make up the true children of Abraham.

The NT makes clear the different between earthly Jerusalem and the heavenly Jerusalem.

for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children-- but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. (Gal. 4)

18 posted on 01/01/2011 8:05:38 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: StonyBurk
I cannot believe replacement theology in the notion that God has cast aside His chosen people.

None of those who believe in a so-called “replacement theology” teach that God has cast aside Jewish people. You are mistaken if you think otherwise.

19 posted on 01/01/2011 8:07:53 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: Tzfat

Amen.

My G-d KEEPS His promises.


20 posted on 01/01/2011 8:39:49 AM PST by left that other site
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To: topcat54
Jesus told his listeners, “The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof” (Matt. 21:43). For many people, this verse provides the heart of “replacement theology”—the idea that the Christian Church has replaced the old physical nation of Israel as God’s chosen people and priestly nation (1 Pet. 2:9–10, et al).

The OP seems to be unaware that the Great Whore has daughters. What was in Babylon moved to Jerusalem. What was in Jerusalem has moved to Rome... And Rome has her daughters too.

And the OP seems equally unaware of who the "Lo Ammi (not my people)" are, as these are a specific people. Find out who the "barren woman" is in Isaiah 54 to reveal many things.

And finally, the OP totally missed the boat on this:

From this sweeping condemnation we can learn that the city called “Babylon” in Revelation 17 and 18 is not the Babylon of Nebuchadnezzar, but Jerusalem called Babylon because she had corrupted herself and become like that ancient pagan Empire:

The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet [colors of the chief priest and the Temple; Ex. 25–28; 38–39], and adorned with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immorality. And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth’s abominations” (Rev. 17:4–5).

What is relevant in the colors of the priests garments is the color which is missing, not the colors that are there. find out what the color blue represents, and many more things will be made very clear.

21 posted on 01/01/2011 9:20:55 AM PST by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit)
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To: count-your-change
The desire to have The Kingdom of God on Earth dies hard even as Jesus called it the Kingdom of the Heavens.

No, as the Kingdom is made evident when it is ON EARTH, as it is in heaven. Yeshua will sit on the physical throne in physical Jerusalem, of that there is no doubt.

22 posted on 01/01/2011 9:23:26 AM PST by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit)
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To: lurk
Looks painful, pulling such a large theology from one’s fanny.

LOL! ; )

23 posted on 01/01/2011 9:25:21 AM PST by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit)
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To: Tzfat
You see, this is what happens when people trust their theology more than the actual words of Scripture.

You also wrote about "this is a statute forever," yet this “forever” temple and sacrifices have been gone for 2000 years. the priesthood has been scattered and is all but unrecoverable. Israel is a nation of secularists. In fact modern Israel bears little resemblance to biblical Israel.

Peter and Paul lived in a time that no longer exists, the transition time between the old covenant and the new. The temple system was a type of Jesus Christ, temporary, decaying, and about to pass away forever (Heb. 8:13).

So how is this all “forever?” Who is twisting the words of the Bible to fit their theology?

24 posted on 01/01/2011 9:28:07 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: ladyL
In Hosea, we are told Yahweh divorced the House of Israel but never are we told He divorced the House of Judah. These are the Jewish people today, the House of Judah.

EXACTLY SO:

Isa 50:1 Thus saith the LORD, Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.

BUT, THERE IS MORE!!!

YHWH has sworn to remarry the House of Israel... How can he do that without abrogating His own laws? She has slept with other "gods," so He cannot take her back... The answer to this riddle is very revealing.

25 posted on 01/01/2011 9:40:22 AM PST by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit)
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To: Rebelbase; kingpins10
How many Jews keep the law? Where’s the burned animal sacrifices today?

How many Christians keep the law? (Answer: *very, very few*)

And the prophets predict the resumption of sacrifice in the Millennium. Ezekiel's Temple sacrificial system is different from the old way, and has not been implemented, even yet. And ALL men will observe at least three of YHWH's Holy Days... It is written.

26 posted on 01/01/2011 9:47:34 AM PST by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit)
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To: topcat54; Tzfat
The temple system was a type of Jesus Christ, temporary, decaying, and about to pass away forever (Heb. 8:13).

But then the King will sit in the eastern (Golden) gate to break His fast every morning... The Golden Gate is reserved for Him, for His coming in and going out. That has not yet occurred.

...And the Eastern Gate has no value without the Temple, hence the Temple will be rebuilt.

27 posted on 01/01/2011 9:51:51 AM PST by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit)
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To: roamer_1

Christians can repent and seek forgiveness in an instant, the sacrifice has already been made.

How easy it for Jews to seek forgiveness when a burnt offering is required? Do they do burnt offerings in modern temples?


28 posted on 01/01/2011 10:00:35 AM PST by Rebelbase ( Islam is a mental disorder.)
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To: roamer_1
...And the Eastern Gate has no value without the Temple, hence the Temple will be rebuilt.

Hence? Curious that neither Jesus nor any of the Jewish writers of the NT spoke of this theory. What do you think they were missing?

If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. (1 Cor. 3:17)
The new covenant temple is entirely spiritual. Jesus is seated in the midst of His true temple. There is no return to the old forms. They all decayed and passed away.
29 posted on 01/01/2011 10:02:44 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: topcat54
Hence? Curious that neither Jesus nor any of the Jewish writers of the NT spoke of this theory. What do you think they were missing?

I disagree. You might study on why Yeshua only fulfilled the spring Holy Days (and how they are fulfilled) for a grander view... And IF that is so, The Triumphal entry cannot have happened as Christians suppose. The Fall Holy Days have yet to find their fulfillment.

And unlike you, I believe the Old Covenant informs the New, not the other way around. For if the Prophets can be denied, then there is no proof of God... And if the Torah is not forever, then the law of God is quixotic, and subject to change.

What good is a promise by YHWH if His word can be broken?

Discard your Greek/Roman view. Understanding the Hebrew elements will be like an epiphany.

The new covenant temple is entirely spiritual. Jesus is seated in the midst of His true temple.

Here is a clue: The Old Covenant was entirely spiritual too. Do you not recall YHWH saying that the blood of beasts is a stench in His nostrils? What could it be that He wanted?

30 posted on 01/01/2011 10:27:50 AM PST by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit)
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To: Rebelbase
Christians can repent and seek forgiveness in an instant, the sacrifice has already been made.

How easy it for Jews to seek forgiveness when a burnt offering is required? Do they do burnt offerings in modern temples?

If the burnt offering was the efficacious element, there would be no need for Messiah... All of Israel would have been made continually saved, and corruption could not have entered in. Do you really think your statement can be true?

31 posted on 01/01/2011 10:34:38 AM PST by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit)
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To: topcat54
priesthood has been scattered and is all but unrecoverable. I

Your information is lacking. The descendants of Aaron are the most genetically identified group in the world, Each Sabbath the descendants of Aaron read first from the Torah. Twice a year hundreds of the descendants of Aaron bless throngs that gather at the Western Wall, in accordance with Numbers 6. But all that is immaterial to you. You can read the plain words of the Almighty and explain them away... You would ignore your nose on your face if it denied Supercessionism.
32 posted on 01/01/2011 11:01:01 AM PST by Tzfat
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To: topcat54
the transition time between the old covenant and the new.

Whatever you say. If the Bible says something don't like (such as the whole book of Acts), then you claim it was a "transition" - y'all need to stop reading from the same script. Scripture never speaks of such a time, and only an idiot would think the first disciples LACKED such basic theological insight. No, the THEOLOGY that came after the first disciples is what was wrong. Your "faith" bears no resemblance to the faith of those who first believed. You folks quote luminaries of the antenicean age because you can't cope with the plain words of the Bible.
33 posted on 01/01/2011 11:11:13 AM PST by Tzfat
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To: Rebelbase
How many Jews keep the law? Where’s the burned animal sacrifices today?

40% of Israeli Jews are observant. To NOT offer sacrifices is actually keeping the Law when there is no Tabernacle/Temple. The common misconception is that the Temple was necessary for forgiveness of sin. Only those that study the Torah think that. But all this is moot because the fact is that when the Holy Temple is rebuilt and offerings are being made (as they certainly will be), folks like Topcat54 will say it is "vile idolatry" - , imagine actually DOING what the King of the Universe decreed considered "vile" - now that is the true definition of idolatry.
34 posted on 01/01/2011 11:20:52 AM PST by Tzfat
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To: roamer_1
Ah, efficacious in what way is the question that should be asked. The book of Hebrews was written in kal v'chomer style. It is the "how much more" logic that is missing from most people's understanding. Watch the logic here:

13  For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify [present tense] for the cleansing of the flesh, 14  how much more will the blood of Messiah who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to G-d, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living G-d?  Hebrews 9:13-14

The author's point is to use the Temple system in a "greater than" format. In other words, the Temple worked (present tense, after Messiah's resurrection), SO HOW MUCH MORE does Messiah's work cleanse. Whereas the Temple provided temporary covering, Messiah give eternal. To deny the efficaciousness of the Temple (that the Almighty decreed) is to deny the efficaciousness of Messiah's work.
35 posted on 01/01/2011 11:33:06 AM PST by Tzfat
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To: roamer_1
I disagree. You might study on why Yeshua only fulfilled the spring Holy Days (and how they are fulfilled) for a grander view... And IF that is so, The Triumphal entry cannot have happened as Christians suppose. The Fall Holy Days have yet to find their fulfillment.

Interesting theory, but only a theory.

The fact remains that nowhere in the NT, not from the lips of Jesus nor from the apostolic writers, do we find the notion of a rebuilt temple with Jesus seated in a literal throne. That what the apostate Jews wanted, and why they rejected Jesus, because He had rejected their ideas of the kingdom.

Now we have whole groups of Christians today accepting the same faulty view of the kingdom that Jesus rejected.

I believe the Old Covenant informs the New, not the other way around.

Informs, but does not override. E.g., the sacrificial system with the priesthood and temple was a pointer forward to Christ. It was intended to pass away when that to which it pointed, Jesus Christ, came on the scene. The law was out tutor to point us to Christ. The law and prophets testified of Christ.

13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete . Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. (Heb. 8)

Obsolete. Yet some sad Christians see it as being reconstituted in the future, complete with animal sacrifice for sin. This is blasphemy.

The NT clearly interprets the Old. That's the way the writers took it anyway.

36 posted on 01/01/2011 11:38:50 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: Tzfat
then you claim it was a "transition"

Well, what do you call the time from Christ's crucifixion/resurrection/ascension to the throne of the Father and the final destruction of the temple in AD70, the end of the age (Matt. 24:3; Heb. 9:26)?

Just look around, where is your “forever” temple and old covenant system?

This is the gist of the New Testament, that the old was a shadow, decayed and passing away (Col. 2:16,17; Heb. 8:13). Christ and His apostles attest to such. Who is the one in denial?

37 posted on 01/01/2011 11:45:41 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: Tzfat
The descendants of Aaron are the most genetically identified group in the world,

Yes, I've read the blurbs. There is no way to genetically identify a unique descendant of Aaron in any biblical sense. Thousands of years of intermarriage have dispersed the genes among the nations. If a Jews converted to Christianity 1500 years ago his descendants would have all the right genes, yet they would be Christians.

It's a pipe dream for a desperate population. The only true hope is for people today to come to Messiah Jesus, regardless of their ethnicity. Then they can be counted among the true children of Abraham and regrafted into the covenantal root, where “there is neither Jew nor Greek.”

38 posted on 01/01/2011 11:53:22 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: roamer_1

That idea was laid to rest by Christ himself long ago and if that’s what you’re looking for it will end in disappointment.


39 posted on 01/01/2011 12:39:22 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: topcat54

The God of Abraham ,Issac and Jacob does not lie .
He does not break his promises .

Zec 12:7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Many are going to be awful surprised when that day comes .
They/you might not know it yet but the war is already won and Israel REMAINS

You and those who go against God’s WORD might not though

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.


40 posted on 01/01/2011 3:08:42 PM PST by Lera
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To: topcat54

“Think biblically. “Kingdom” and “nation” do not equate to some dusty parcel of land. “

That’s right. Jesus said, “the Kingdom of God is within you”, so the earthly Kingdom is not even a consideration.


41 posted on 01/01/2011 5:50:35 PM PST by webstersII
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To: roamer_1
My ears are wide open as I have been fooling with this conundrum for years :) Answer soon...quickly or I shan't sleep tonight :)
42 posted on 01/01/2011 7:47:21 PM PST by ladyL
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To: kingpins10

Who is the tree that the Jews are grafted into? The Jews were never “ungrafted” Israel was divorced and ungrafted, so it is SHE when she returns who will be grafted back into.
She is the WILD olive branches but not the Jews. They stayed in the tree all along, just like the Prodigal son’s brother stayed home.

It is the HOUSE OF ISRAEL, ISRAEL, ISRAEL NOT JUDAH/JEWS who is grafted back into the tree of the Kingdom of God. Check out Biblically the difference between House and Kingdom.


43 posted on 01/01/2011 8:00:32 PM PST by ladyL
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To: topcat54
Yes, I've read the blurbs. There is no way to genetically identify a unique descendant of Aaron in any biblical sense

Maybe not your family. You don't know many Orthodox Jews, do you. Clearly not. Regardless, the descendants of Aaron are clearly known, not only by intricate geneaological records, but by their DNA markers. Kohenim are not the mongrels you suppose.

Of course, when the Holy Temple is functioning, with descendants of Aaron, you will make up a new excuse to ignore the ETERNAL covenant with Aaron and his descendants.
44 posted on 01/01/2011 8:23:26 PM PST by Tzfat
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To: topcat54
Just look around, where is your “forever” temple and old covenant system?

Look around, where is your "forever" King Jesus? Where is the "New Covenant" sytem? I can't SEE IT, so I guess it is just eye wash? You apply one standard for what you do not like, and another for your own theological rubrics.
45 posted on 01/01/2011 8:27:02 PM PST by Tzfat
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To: topcat54

> Think biblically. “Kingdom” and “nation” do not equate to
> some dusty parcel of land.

You know, maybe I’m just a rube, but that sounds like word mincing to me.

> We do? Who told you that?

I think they speak rather plainly for themselves. I’ve heard these passages explained away in various ways, but I was unable to find the explanations believable in light of the plain text.

Enjoy the light God has given you. I’ll enjoy what He has given me. I’m probably not gonna convince you, and I’m certain you ain’t gonna convince me, so no point in going down this rabbit trail.


46 posted on 01/01/2011 10:19:56 PM PST by Westbrook (Having children does not divide your love, it multiplies it.)
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To: topcat54

Interesting article. I need to read more to comment. But expect flames from all sides


47 posted on 01/02/2011 7:18:28 AM PST by Cronos (Kto jestem? Nie wiem! Ale moj Bog wie!)
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To: kingpins10; Tzfat
Mystery Babylon may very well be as the article indicates. Or it could mean the fall of Imperial Rome which happened in 430 AD. One of those two options.

Luther may have been anti-Judaic (in fact he wrote some extremely harsh words about them), but he was not anti-Semitic -- he was ok if they converted, which is what he wanted to do. He was not against the Jewish "race" like Hitler was.
48 posted on 01/02/2011 7:24:39 AM PST by Cronos (Kto jestem? Nie wiem! Ale moj Bog wie!)
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To: Cronos
Luther may have been anti-Judaic (in fact he wrote some extremely harsh words about them), but he was not anti-Semitic -- he was ok if they converted

I think you misunderstand the nature of anti-Semitism. "Anti-Judaic" may sound fine to you, but it is the same thing as "anti-Semitic." Christianity says that once a Jew "converts" to Christianity, he/she is no longer a Jew. Genocide, either way, is the goal. It is why Hitler printed and distributed Luther's nice little hate tract "The Jews and Their Lies."
49 posted on 01/02/2011 12:57:12 PM PST by Tzfat
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To: Westbrook
You know, maybe I’m just a rube, but that sounds like word mincing to me.

Not really, because a “kingdom” and “nation” in biblical terms encompass more than a single physical locale.

But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy. (1 Peter 2:9,10)

Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? (James 2:5)

All speaking of the Church.

I think they speak rather plainly for themselves. I’ve heard these passages explained away in various ways, but I was unable to find the explanations believable in light of the plain text.

The plain text? You mean the explanation of those who see these things in terms of modern nuclear war? Modern textchology? Modern armies? Those things plain text?

50 posted on 01/02/2011 6:33:00 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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