Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Atheists Complain of "Spirituality" in Army's Mental Health Program
The Christian Post ^ | December 31, 2010 | Stephanie Samuel

Posted on 01/01/2011 2:50:50 PM PST by wmfights

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-150151-173 next last
To: A_perfect_lady; xzins; Alamo-Girl; spirited irish; YHAOS; iowaguy1972; wmfights; metmom; r9etb
... invisible entities....

Oh, you mean invisible entities like mathematics, scientific laws, human languages, or "the laws of Nature and of Nature's God," as Thomas Jefferson put it in the Declaration of Independence? [Not to mention souls, which you deny "in principle" — a sector of reality to be adamantly denied — because it does not fit your presuppositions!]

I guess I'll have to check with xzins on this; for as a former military chaplain, he'd be the "expert" on this question, not I: I strongly doubt spiritual counseling is a mandated matter. But I am pretty sure it would be made available even to atheists, should they request it.

101 posted on 01/04/2011 12:00:06 PM PST by betty boop (Seek truth and beauty together; you will never find them apart. — F. M. Cornford)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 96 | View Replies]

To: A_perfect_lady; xzins; Alamo-Girl; spirited irish; YHAOS; iowaguy1972; wmfights; metmom; r9etb
Because when you’re dead, you’re dead. You’re gone.

You keep saying that, A_perfect_lady — over and over again. But you haven't provided a single scrap of evidence that this is so.

And so we're back to where we started — with a unsupported assertion.

102 posted on 01/04/2011 12:04:05 PM PST by betty boop (Seek truth and beauty together; you will never find them apart. — F. M. Cornford)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 99 | View Replies]

To: A_perfect_lady

p.s.: Thank you sincerely for your service to our country!


103 posted on 01/04/2011 12:17:26 PM PST by betty boop (Seek truth and beauty together; you will never find them apart. — F. M. Cornford)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 96 | View Replies]

To: A_perfect_lady; xzins; Alamo-Girl; spirited irish; YHAOS; iowaguy1972; wmfights; metmom; r9etb; ...
p.s.: As I said, "you keep saying that...over and over again."

Two possibilities come to mind here:

(1) You somehow think that language alone can shape/reshape Reality. If we say "thus and so" often enough, the world itself yields to our preference, conforms itself to it. I find this a very dubious proposition. It smacks of a "magical operation."

(2) You are "whistling past the graveyard"....

104 posted on 01/04/2011 12:23:56 PM PST by betty boop (Seek truth and beauty together; you will never find them apart. — F. M. Cornford)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 102 | View Replies]

To: betty boop; xzins; YHAOS; hosepipe; spirited irish; wmfights; A_perfect_lady
What a wonderfully informative and engaging thread this has become! I thank you all for your insights. And especially your outstanding essay at post 41, dearest sister in Christ – and your specially informative insights at post 52, dear brother in Christ!

Rather than attempting to play catch-up by addressing points raised specifically, I am posting below my general albeit lengthy reply to atheism per se.

First, my testimony:

God is not a hypothesis. He lives. His Name is I AM. I’ve known Him for a half century and counting.

It should be acknowledged right up front that no amount of reasoning or signs can result in faith, one must first have “ears to hear” which is a gift of God.

And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land; The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles: Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day. And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot. - Deuteronomy 29:2-5

And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:- Matt 13:14

Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. – John 8:43

On to the atheists…

All mortals suffer from what betty boop has coined “The Observer Problem.” Chief among these is a false sense of self importance. Indeed, God has made a hundred billion people and counting. That means that each one of us is roughly equivalent to a drop of water in an Olympic sized swimming pool.

And not only are we mortals insignificant, we are blind and stupid. Without the gift of “ears to hear” all that any of us can perceive is limited by our physical sensory perception and minds. We cannot see over the horizon; we cannot peer into the distant past or future. We physically cannot see other dimensions or particles or quantum fields or the cosmos. We can’t see the contents of a closed box or perceive what the other sentient being perceives.

We physically cannot understand.

For instance, we have a woefully limited sense of time and velocity. What man is constantly aware that he is rocketing through space at more than 550,000 miles per hour?

A fly in your car is going 5 mph. That is his speed from his perspective as the observer. But your car in speeding down the road at 65 mph. So for the guy watching you from the roadside table, that fly is going 70 mph.

But the road you have taken is on the equator and the circumference of the earth at the equator is 24,901.55 miles and the earth rotates once every 24 hours. So that fly is now going 1,100 mph + 70 mph = 1,170 mph.

Moreover, the orbital length of earth traveling around the sun is 149,600,000 miles, traveled in 365.25 days. That is 67,000 miles per hour. So add that in, and the fly is going 68,170 mph. The sun orbits the Milky Way galaxy at a speed of 486,000 miles per hour. Add that in, and the fly is now going 554,170 miles per hour.

All of this and we haven’t gotten to the accelerating expansion of the universe, i.e. space/time itself.

A galaxy 1 million light years away would seem to be moving away from us at a rate of 60,000 miles per hour. For every 3.26 million light years further out that we look, the galaxies seem to be moving away from us at an additional 162,000 miles per hour In sum, the universe is currently at least 156 billion light years wide.

And that is from the fly’s perspective. If we go in the other direction as "observer" – the quantum – the cumulative velocities are even more mind-boggling.

And what man is continually aware that time is hand-in-glove to that velocity and his space/time coordinates (equivalence principle?)

For instance, during the inflationary phase of the universe, space/time expanded faster than the speed of light. One way to visualize the issue is to remember that the star’s light you observe in the night’s sky may have traveled 10 billion years to reach you, having begun its journey when the star was merely a billion light years away and even though you can see the star, it actually no longer exists.

The reason its light didn't reach you in a billion years is that space/time itself expands. Or to put it another way, space/time doesn’t pre-exist, it is created as the universe expands.

As another example, if you were an observer near the horizon of a black hole while a week elapsed for you, forty years may elapse on earth.

As another example, if you are on an observer on a spaceship accelerating at one earth’s gravity - for you, 25.3 years would elapse – but for the observer on earth, 5x1010 years would elapse. Spacetime Wheel

Of course these are simplifications –because space/time itself is warped by gravity (general relativity v. special relativity) and no thing is at rest in the universe. The universe is expanding and accelerating.

Of a truth, God and God alone can see “all that there is” all at once - every where and every when. He alone knows objective truth. He alone speaks it. Indeed, God is Truth. When He says a thing, it is. It is because He says it.

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. - Genesis 1:3

By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. - Psalms 33:6

The atheist of course cannot accept that any One can see “all that there is” all at once - probably because he can’t. Indeed, the atheist's concept of reality itself is highly egocentric though I doubt he would accept that observation.

He says he has no “god” but of a truth, his “god” is physical causation (cause>effect) because he can physically sense it, understand it with his mind and prove it to himself. But physical causation requires both space and time and there was a beginning of real space and real time. From the 1960s forward, measurements consistently agree that the universe is expanding, that there was a beginning of real space and real time. Indeed, that was the most theological statement ever to come out of modern science. (Jastrow) “In the beginning, God …”

In the absence of space, things cannot exist.

In the absence of time, events cannot occur.

Truly, all physical cosmologies rely on physical causation – space and time – whether inflationary, multi-verse, multi-world, ekpyrotic, cyclic, imaginary time, etc. All of the prior universe models superimpose this universe’s physical causation, space/time and indeed, physical laws onto prior universes all the while admitting that there is no such requirement that a prior universe would be like this one.

The big bang is the most widely accepted point of agreement among them, but a singularity is not nothing – the big bang also requires space and time:

Mathematically, the dimension of a space is the minimum number of coordinates (axes) necessary to identify a point within the space. A space of zero dimensions is a point; one dimension, a line, two dimensions, a plane; three, a cube, etc. That is the geometry of it. In zero dimensions, the mathematical point is indivisible.

It is not nothing. It is a spatial point. A singularity is not nothing.

In ex nihilo Creation (beginning of space/time) - the dimensions are not merely zero, they are null, dimensions do not exist at all. There is no space and no time. Period.

There is no mathematical point, no volume, no content, no scalar quantities. Ex nihilo doesn’t exist in relationship to anything else; there is no thing.

In an existing physical space, each point (e.g. particle) can be parameterized by a quantity such as mass. The parameter (e.g. a specific quantity within the range of possible quantities) is in effect another descriptor or quasi-dimension that uniquely identifies the point within the space.

Moreover, if the quantity of the parameter changes for a point, then a time dimension is invoked. For example, at one moment the point value is “0” and the next it is “1”.

Wave propagation (e.g. big bang, inflation) cannot occur in null dimensions nor can it occur in zero spatial dimensions, a mathematical point; a dimension of time is required for any fluctuation in a parameter value at a point.

Moreover, wave propagation must also have a spatial/temporal relation from cause point to effect point, i.e. physical causation.

For instance “0” at point nt causes “1” at point n+1t+1 which causes "0" at point n+1t+2 etc..

Obviously, physical wave propagation (e.g. big bang/inflationary model) cannot precede space/time and physical causality. Again,

In the absence of space, things cannot exist.

In the absence of time, events cannot occur.

Both space and time are required for physical causation.

The wise man asks: Why this instead of nothing at all?

And he realizes that only God, beyond space/time and physical causation, can be the uncaused cause of causation, the first cause, The Creator of the beginning.

Space, time and physical causation are not properties of God the Creator. They are properties of the Creation. Only God is uncaused.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: - Romans 1:20

The origin of space, time and physical causation – although striking - are not the only open questions that vex physical cosmologists. There is also no explanation for the origin of information (Shannon, successful communication,) inertia, semiosis, autonomy and so on. And yet the universe is logical – if it were not, we could not understand it at all.

Order cannot arise from chaos in an unguided physical system. Period. There are always guides to the system whether one is using chaos theory, self-organizing complexity, cellular automata or whatever to analyze complexification, entropy and order.

Indeed, to me, the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics (Wigner) is God’s copyright notice on the cosmos.

Logos is the Greek word which is translated “Word” in the following passage. It is also the root for the word “Logic:”

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. – John 1:1-4

All of which brings me back to where I started: “ears to hear” which is a gift of God.

The divine calculus, in my view, begins with understanding “who man is.”

In the strictest terms, no physical man is the center of the physical universe. God, on the other hand, sees all of it, all at once – and not just a cosmic overview but all the way down to the quantum fields or particles.

But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. - Matthew 10:30

Mathematically speaking, in between the two extreme perspectives of cosmos and quantum is the geometric form of a particular man, rocketing through space and time from a definitive beginning space/time coordinate of his mortal life to a definitive ending space/time coordinate of his mortal life.

But that is just the physical man.

And neither his form (geometry of his autonomy) nor his constituent molecules sum up to who the man “is.” Indeed all of his molecules are replaced every seven years as I recall. And his form is relative over space and time. It is all quite dynamic in this physical creation.

Man is not the sum of his physical parts.

Indeed, I aver that who a particular man “is” – whether physically or spiritually as a living soul - is information, i.e. a particular message being communicated.

Bear with me…

Physically speaking, the message is DNA – a message unique to each one of us. The message is “who” a man physically “is.” As long as the message is being communicated throughout his autonomous physical body, the man is physically alive. When it ceases to be communicated, he is physically dead. He is physically dead not because the message disappears (DNA doesn’t yield to entropy right away) but because the message is not being communicated.

Moreover, by the very fact of his existence on some finite worldline of the space/time continuum, the universe has been physically “informed.” Physically, who he is and his entire life is “on the record.” God sees all of it.

But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. – Matt 12:36

But we mortal men are not just physical, like so many other life forms rocketing through space/time. And the message of “who we are” is not merely who we physically are. Indeed, Adam was specially given the very breath of God; he was made a living soul. That is part of the message of who we are that cannot be examined under a microscope as part of our DNA; it is nevertheless part of our information content, part of the “record.”

And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. – Genesis 2:7

Adam was not made for a mere physical existence like a bacteria, daffodil, fish or cow. He doesn’t “belong” in the physical realm and he knows it. But because he was banished to mortality, this peculiar creature made for Paradise/Eden, having immortality at his finger tips, now is grounded in the physical universe whose life forms were his to name.

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die [literally, muwth muwth or “death death”]. – Genesis 2:17

And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof. – Genesis 2:19

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. – Genesis 3:22-24

Death entered the world because of Adam, not just physical death but muwth muwth – death death. Not just the death of his physical body, but the death of his living soul.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: - Romans 5:12

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. – Matthew 10:28

Now for our rescue…

We are rescued by a message being communicated to us (“ears to hear.”) And that message is not who we are but rather, Who Christ IS. Spiritually speaking, we Christians are that message being communicated to us, in us and through us.

Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, [The Son] of David. - Matthew 22:42

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. - Matthew 16:15-18

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. –I Corinthians 12:3

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: - John 10:27

So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. - Romans 10:17

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. – Romans 10:9

But the parallel does not end there. Like our autonomous physical body is the boundary of the communication of who we physically are (the DNA) - we are part of His body because the message of Who He IS is communicated through us.

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. - I Cor 12:12-14

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. - John 3:5-8

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? - I Corinthians 6:19

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:9

For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. – Romans 12:4-5

From that last verse - “every one members one of another” – not because of who we are but because of Who He IS. That Spiritual communication or communion is what we Christians share. (emphasis mine)

Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. II Cor 2:6-16

And again,

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. – Matt 4:4

Give us this day our daily bread. – Matt 6:11

I am that bread of life. – John 6:48

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. – John 6:63

So in the same way that we are physically alive because the message of who we are is being communicated throughout our autonomous form, the message of Who He IS binds us together in Him, spiritually.

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. – Colossians 3:3

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. - Galatians 2:20

I visualize each of us as a peculiar creature (a descendant of Adam rather than a mere animal like a cow or donkey or ape or dinosaur) free falling through space and time being “hooked” by His calling to us - or if you prefer, our grabbing hold of the life line He extends to us. Thus I am even while in the flesh, alive in Him. And when the physical body dies, the message of who I am continues thereafter caught up in the message of Who He IS.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. – John 5:24

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. – John 1:12-13

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together. – Romans 8:15-17

All the above is summarized in His Name, I AM. YHwH, by the way, is often translated “The Lord” in the Old Testamant, but the word means HE IS.

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. - Revelation 1:7-8

To God be the glory, not man, never man.

105 posted on 01/04/2011 12:59:08 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 104 | View Replies]

To: wmfights; A_perfect_lady; Alamo-Girl; xzins; r9etb; YHAOS; TXnMA; MHGinTN; metmom; Diamond
If we are no more than barnyard animals why should we obey any higher laws?

Short answer: There is no reason why we should.

On the other hand, the "laws" that are being proposed are perfectly suited to barnyard animals....

Lost in all this is the nature of man qua man.

106 posted on 01/04/2011 1:02:18 PM PST by betty boop (Seek truth and beauty together; you will never find them apart. — F. M. Cornford)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 64 | View Replies]

To: betty boop
1) I'm okay with abstractions until you say they have desires and personalities and the ability to condemn a fictional part of my personality to a fictional place. Then I have just pat you on the head and smile.

2) We're back to where we started because I never left. The world is what it is. You live and then you die. Make the most of life, is my advice. It's not rocket science.

3) My language doesn't reshape reality. Reality is what it is, simple, clear, and right in front of you. If you want to make up extra narratives with a metaphysical Good vs Evil endgame psychodrama, go ahead. But you're making it up. You're taking previous generations' fantasies and reinterpreting them for your own amusement. You're free to do this. Just don't try to make others do it.

4) As long as it isn't mandated and isn't too expensive, I don't care.

107 posted on 01/04/2011 1:03:03 PM PST by A_perfect_lady (Islam is as Islam does.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 101 | View Replies]

To: betty boop

We should obey “higher” laws (as you call them) because some of them will make our society safer, more civil, more comfortable, more conducive to human happiness and survival. But not all laws based on the desires of God (as revealed to certain politically ambitious historical figures) are as conducive. I’m pretty happy we don’t stone people anymore for having sex outside of marriage.


108 posted on 01/04/2011 1:07:29 PM PST by A_perfect_lady (Islam is as Islam does.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 106 | View Replies]

To: A_perfect_lady
I don't care.

Perhaps that, then, is the root of your problem. If you cared, you'd try to find out.

109 posted on 01/04/2011 1:07:49 PM PST by betty boop (Seek truth and beauty together; you will never find them apart. — F. M. Cornford)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 107 | View Replies]

To: betty boop

Find out what?


110 posted on 01/04/2011 1:10:12 PM PST by A_perfect_lady (Islam is as Islam does.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 109 | View Replies]

To: A_perfect_lady; Alamo-Girl; wmfights; spirited irish; xzins; r9etb; YHAOS; TXnMA; MHGinTN; ...
We should obey “higher” laws (as you call them) because some of them will make our society safer, more civil, more comfortable, more conducive to human happiness and survival.

Oh, I so agree!

But you're gliding right over the problem of what makes such laws "higher."

111 posted on 01/04/2011 1:11:12 PM PST by betty boop (Seek truth and beauty together; you will never find them apart. — F. M. Cornford)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 108 | View Replies]

To: betty boop

It’s not a problem. I called them “higher” because you called them “higher” and I didn’t see any point in arguing with you.


112 posted on 01/04/2011 1:13:08 PM PST by A_perfect_lady (Islam is as Islam does.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 111 | View Replies]

To: betty boop; A_perfect_lady; xzins; Alamo-Girl; spirited irish; YHAOS; iowaguy1972; wmfights; ...
"I strongly doubt spiritual counseling is a mandated matter"

I believe spiritual evaluation, where appropriate, is part of a mandated psychological evaluation. If I understand the dispute properly.

I believe the Atheists want the "spiritual" evaluation deleted from everyone's evaluation. Apparently, the US military is to deny that anyone has spiritual needs.

113 posted on 01/04/2011 1:26:20 PM PST by YHAOS (you betcha!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 101 | View Replies]

To: A_perfect_lady
Well, I haven't had to rule anything out. I look at the world, I see what is there, I deal with what is there, and I don't concern myself with invisible entities that other people believe in. And all I want is that they not insist I deal with their imaginations either. Particularly using tax payer money or government force. Hey, if the military wants to OFFER spiritual guidance, go on ahead. I was in the military for four years active duty and seven years reserve. I know that a lot of people have mental problems, and "spiritual" problems, and if it makes them feel better, go ahead. I only draw the line at mandated "spiritual" guidance. And don't spend too much of my tax dollars on it.

There is no scientific proof of God but there is hard evidence of the God advantage. There are many exceptions but scientifically it is known that religious people don't fold as quickly under pressure, are more brave, heroic, optimistic, hold out hope, and have a winning edge. These are good things for our military to have, and it's worth spending some tax dollars on and supporting even if you personally are not religious. Some spiritual training should be mandatory for combat soldiers. They don't have to buy it, but sitting in a foxhole with bullets flying overhead, they just might find it in themselves to suspend disbelief and fight on and not crack.

If someone truly believes that God exists, for practical purpose God really does and the benefits are provided. This doesn't apply to things like believing in a personal ability to fly, but it truly does work to believe that God is on your side.

Combat, religion, and team sports (really practice combat) are all closely related going back thousands of years. We should not throw out tradition just because some of us were not blessed with the gift of faith. I want our military to have every winning advantage available, especially cultural traditions that are both scientifically proven and have withstood the test of time.

114 posted on 01/04/2011 1:30:10 PM PST by Reeses
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 96 | View Replies]

To: Reeses

So it doesn’t matter if it’s true, we just want to make them believe so they fight better for us. Wow. I’m glad I got out.


115 posted on 01/04/2011 1:37:15 PM PST by A_perfect_lady (Islam is as Islam does.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 114 | View Replies]

To: betty boop

By the way, just because you have designated “souls” as “a part of reality” doesn’t mean they are. They aren’t. You don’t get to add cultural beliefs to reality and declare that they are now part of that territory any more than I do. Unless you’re going to allow me to claim that astrology is part of reality, and then I can argue that what you call your soul is really just your Sun in Leo (which is clearly conjuncted with Uranus... or whatever.)


116 posted on 01/04/2011 1:45:02 PM PST by A_perfect_lady (Islam is as Islam does.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 111 | View Replies]

To: YHAOS; betty boop; A_perfect_lady; xzins; Alamo-Girl; spirited irish; iowaguy1972; wmfights

An atheist can simply just say *Declined* or N/A when it comes to the spiritual counseling part.

But it has to be mentioned and mentioning it is no violation of anyone’s rights.

But to mandate that it be deleted because they don’t believe it is, well, draconian and socialist.


117 posted on 01/04/2011 1:59:56 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 113 | View Replies]

To: A_perfect_lady
So it doesn’t matter if it’s true, we just want to make them believe so they fight better for us. Wow. I’m glad I got out.

For all practical purposes, it is true if they believe it. The effects are very real and unmistakable. Sports coaches and military leaders have used religion to inspire victory from what mathematically should have been certain defeat many times. If you don't want to win, don't mess with those that do.

Being on a mission from God is the reason Sarah Palin became Governor of Alaska, has a husband, big family, big house, and is now wealthy. Her imaginary friend has not been so imaginary in the results dept. She has it all, which infuriates the envious to no end. Many people who are anti-religion are actually driven by envy. They don't want to have what the religious have, but to destroy what they have, ban it in the workplace, ridicule it, make it illegal. That's evil.

Few people have the right attributes for a military career, and even fewer for combat. For that profession being a deep thinker is probably detrimental.

118 posted on 01/04/2011 2:10:19 PM PST by Reeses
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 115 | View Replies]

To: A_perfect_lady
Witness the Middle East. Lots of God-fearing people there, and what advantage are they to anyone? As for might making right, it usually is accepted that it does, although people rarely admit it. Christianity gained a foothold in the 5th century through might, via the emporer Constantine (if I remember correctly.) The winners of wars tend to write the books, explaining why it was morally preferable that they win.

This is a common fall back position. The problem though is it is not based on the actual teachings in Scripture. There are only two faiths in this world that have the revealed Word of God, Christianity and Judaism. All other religions are pagan. I believe you will only find one time that God has instructed His people to eradicate a foe.

Look at the Old Testament: The Hebrews slaughtered the Canaanites, took the land, and lo, their might was evidence that their God was right (apparently.)

I believe this is the one time that God instructed any of His people to initiate a war and eradicate a people. In fact the inability of the Jews to do so (They didn't have the heart for it) is part of the reason we have such a problem in the middle east today.

119 posted on 01/04/2011 2:19:45 PM PST by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 77 | View Replies]

To: Reeses

Well, you’re arguing its utility, not its truth. I won’t bother arguing this because even if it is true (which I’m not necessarily accepting, as the kamikazes and Nazis seemed pretty good fighters) it’s just not a stance that interests me.


120 posted on 01/04/2011 2:23:23 PM PST by A_perfect_lady (Islam is as Islam does.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 118 | View Replies]

To: betty boop; A_perfect_lady; Alamo-Girl; xzins; r9etb; YHAOS; TXnMA; MHGinTN; metmom; Diamond
WM: If we are no more than barnyard animals why should we obey any higher laws?

BB: Short answer: There is no reason why we should.

And yet there is something inside us that causes us to know we are not supposed to live like that.

121 posted on 01/04/2011 2:24:07 PM PST by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 106 | View Replies]

To: wmfights
The problem though is it is not based on the actual teachings in Scripture.

So now you're not arguing anymore that belief in God is automatically superior to atheism. Now you're arguing that belief in Judeo-Christian Scripture is superior to everything else.

This is what religious arguments always boil down to: first they try to get you to believe in God. Then in their God. Then in their denomination. Then in their personal interpretation of their denomination. By that time, whether they realize it or not, what they are really trying to get the rest of us to believe in... is THEM.

122 posted on 01/04/2011 2:27:12 PM PST by A_perfect_lady (Islam is as Islam does.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 119 | View Replies]

To: betty boop; A_perfect_lady; Alamo-Girl; wmfights; spirited irish; xzins; r9etb; YHAOS; TXnMA; ...
But you're gliding right over the problem of what makes such laws "higher."

If a valid law is solely determined by who has the greatest power then the atrocities of WWII would be legitimate. I don't believe for a second that atheists would think those atrocities were legitimate even though they had the power of the law behind them, but why wouldn't they?

For me the answer is obvious, we have been given a conscience. I think this is also evidence of a soul.

123 posted on 01/04/2011 2:35:44 PM PST by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 111 | View Replies]

To: wmfights
And yet there is something inside us that causes us to know we are not supposed to live like that.

No there isn't. Children come into this world selfish little savages. You have to teach them civilized behavior.

124 posted on 01/04/2011 2:38:32 PM PST by A_perfect_lady (Islam is as Islam does.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 121 | View Replies]

To: A_perfect_lady
Well, you’re arguing its utility, not its truth.

It's pointless to argue its truth as all agree it cannot be proven. It's faith. Only circumstantial evidence exists and that's not enough to prove beyond all reasonable doubt.

The Kamikazes and Nazis were not atheists.

125 posted on 01/04/2011 2:40:59 PM PST by Reeses
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 120 | View Replies]

To: A_perfect_lady; wmfights; betty boop; Alamo-Girl; xzins; r9etb; YHAOS; TXnMA; MHGinTN; Diamond; ...
So now you're not arguing anymore that belief in God is automatically superior to atheism. Now you're arguing that belief in Judeo-Christian Scripture is superior to everything else.

It is. Look at its fruit. History bears that out.

The Protestant west has produced among the most civilized and free governments and societies in history. Western Europe under primarily Protestant influence saw the greatest advances in science, education, and social reform this world has seen.

I can't think of one single atheistic government that I would want to live under. Your choices are Stalin, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro, Kim Jung Il, and Pol Pot. You pick.

I may be missing some but I can't think of ONE atheistic government that has ever benefited mankind.

People abandon Judeo-Christian thought and morals at their own peril. I presume that you're living in the United States and are enjoying the freedoms and benefits that that Judeo-Christan belief system has produced that you seem to now want to obliterate. You'll be shooting yourself in the foot.

Funny thing about atheists. They seem to like to spit in the face of the very belief system that grants them the freedom to spit in its face.

126 posted on 01/04/2011 2:41:18 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 122 | View Replies]

To: Reeses

If they weren’t atheists, then, I guess we can quit blaming war and slaughter on atheists. Could you let your other religionists know...?


127 posted on 01/04/2011 2:46:03 PM PST by A_perfect_lady (Islam is as Islam does.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 125 | View Replies]

To: metmom

Excellent post, metmom. I might insert “Christian” for Protestant, but that aside, well done. :)


128 posted on 01/04/2011 2:47:37 PM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 126 | View Replies]

To: A_perfect_lady; xzins; Alamo-Girl; spirited irish; YHAOS; iowaguy1972; wmfights; Diamond
I called them “higher” because you called them “higher” and I didn’t see any point in arguing with you.

Well, why not? Isn't it necessary to clarify our terms if we hope to advance our debate?

Or are you invoking Niels Bohr's remark — "And so we are suspended in language in such a way that we cannot say what is 'up' and what is 'down'?" — and just leaving it at that? (He was speaking of the quantum world, of the problem of the "observer" in that world; but we humans don't completely live in that world. The reason being: Human beings do not entirely "reduce" to that world. There is something more that human beings express in their very "beingness," so to speak....)

If so, human communication becomes impossible.

"Suspension in language" indeed seems to be where we are. For we seemingly cannot find a common ground of meaning. Or at least, not so far....

And yet what I know is that ontology — the science of being and existence — and epistemology — the science of knowledge and knowing — are intimately bound up together, resonate together, shed light on each other.

This understanding lies at the very foundation of Natural Law theory and, thus, of the natural sciences themselves. It proclaims that the universe is structured in such a way as to be knowable, that is to say accessible to the human mind, given its natural structure....

And this is no "accident."

A Christian might say that this is so because both ontology and epistemology proceed from the One Source, which is God.

129 posted on 01/04/2011 2:50:19 PM PST by betty boop (Seek truth and beauty together; you will never find them apart. — F. M. Cornford)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 112 | View Replies]

To: A_perfect_lady
we can quit blaming war and slaughter on atheists.

War, slaughter, murder, and voting Democrat, are all caused by envy, not atheism or religion. Religion just provides a competitive advantage defeating the evil of envy.

130 posted on 01/04/2011 2:50:27 PM PST by Reeses
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 127 | View Replies]

To: metmom; A_perfect_lady; Alamo-Girl; xzins; wmfights; r9etb; YHAOS; TXnMA; MHGinTN; Diamond
They seem to like to spit in the face of the very belief system that grants them the freedom to spit in its face.

Yep — they specialize in the fine art of "sawing off the very branch to which they naturally have to cling for their own existence and survival." LOL!!!

Thank you ever so much for your fine insights, dear metmom!

131 posted on 01/04/2011 2:53:58 PM PST by betty boop (Seek truth and beauty together; you will never find them apart. — F. M. Cornford)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 126 | View Replies]

To: A_perfect_lady
So now you're not arguing anymore that belief in God is automatically superior to atheism.

It is self evident, just on the basis that living by the laws God has given us is clearly superior to living by the law as determined by who has the most power.

Now you're arguing that belief in Judeo-Christian Scripture is superior to everything else.

I didn't just start, that has always been my position.

This is what religious arguments always boil down to: first they try to get you to believe in God. Then in their God.

I think if you take the time to go back over my posts you will find that is not the case. My whole point has been to get you to take the first step towards recognizing the existence of "higher laws". The next step after that is to begin the process of figuring out where they came from.

By that time, whether they realize it or not, what they are really trying to get the rest of us to believe in... is THEM.

This couldn't be farther from the Truth.

I wouldn't expect you to understand because it's not something you've studied in great detail. The posters on this thread represent multiple churches and we have very heated discussions about a variety of topics, but none of them have asked you to join their specific church.

132 posted on 01/04/2011 2:53:58 PM PST by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 122 | View Replies]

To: metmom

If what you want to argue is that Judeo-Christian culture is the best, then argue that. But don’t make this about atheists, or you’ve got the muslims on your side too, and I’m pretty sure you don’t want them. Not to mention the brutality that Catholicism has, in the past, evinced. Look, as far as CULTURES go, if I have to live among any religious people, I’ll take the J-Cs. But one of the reasons I’ll take the J-Cs is that the religion is predicated not on obedience, but faith and free will. If you try to shove your religion down athiest throats, you might as well be Muslim.


133 posted on 01/04/2011 2:56:35 PM PST by A_perfect_lady (Islam is as Islam does.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 126 | View Replies]

To: A_perfect_lady
Children come into this world selfish little savages. You have to teach them civilized behavior.

No you do not. If that were true civilization would not have developed.

134 posted on 01/04/2011 2:58:14 PM PST by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 124 | View Replies]

To: betty boop
Well, why not? Isn't it necessary to clarify our terms if we hope to advance our debate?

Okay, if that's what you want: can you please clarify which laws are "higher" and which laws are "lower"?

135 posted on 01/04/2011 2:58:53 PM PST by A_perfect_lady (Islam is as Islam does.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 129 | View Replies]

To: A_perfect_lady; Alamo-Girl; xzins; wmfights; r9etb; YHAOS; TXnMA; MHGinTN; metmom; Diamond
You don’t get to add cultural beliefs to reality and declare that they are now part of that territory any more than I do.

Cultural beliefs are already a part of Reality.

Why do you relentless try to expunge them from the picture?

Do you have some animus towards man?

136 posted on 01/04/2011 3:00:06 PM PST by betty boop (Seek truth and beauty together; you will never find them apart. — F. M. Cornford)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 116 | View Replies]

To: Reeses
Religion just provides a competitive advantage defeating the evil of envy.

You know, I just can't agree. I think love of freedom is a better motivator.

137 posted on 01/04/2011 3:04:58 PM PST by A_perfect_lady (Islam is as Islam does.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 130 | View Replies]

To: wmfights
No you do not. If that were true civilization would not have developed.

Sure they would. Because children eventually become adults and think "I hate being robbed. Hey, let's outlaw it!" Notice how LONG it took true civilization to develop? That should tell you something.

138 posted on 01/04/2011 3:06:45 PM PST by A_perfect_lady (Islam is as Islam does.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 134 | View Replies]

To: A_perfect_lady
If you try to shove your religion down athiest throats, you might as well be Muslim.

But based on your arguments about the military providing spiritual counseling, you seem to be satisfied to shove YOUR atheism down our believing throats. Wouldn't that make you like as a muslim yourself?

Such a typical atheistic/liberal double standard. Atheists sure seem willing to force their viewpoint on others the whole while claiming that others are doing the exact same thing to them.

139 posted on 01/04/2011 3:09:08 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 133 | View Replies]

To: wmfights
It is self evident, just on the basis that living by the laws God has given us is clearly superior to living by the law as determined by who has the most power.

But you're forgetting what makes Judeo-Christian rule the least obnoxious (at least currently. Don't know if I'd agree it was best, say 400 years ago.) What makes it best is that it is predicated on free will and faith. It has to be freely chosen. You aren't to shove it down anyone's throat. If you do that, you begin the eradication of what separates you from Islam, from the Catholic church, and from Marxists.I have to go, we can continue this later if you want.

140 posted on 01/04/2011 3:12:12 PM PST by A_perfect_lady (Islam is as Islam does.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 132 | View Replies]

To: A_perfect_lady
But you're forgetting what makes Judeo-Christian rule the least obnoxious (at least currently. Don't know if I'd agree it was best, say 400 years ago.) What makes it best is that it is predicated on free will and faith. It has to be freely chosen. You aren't to shove it down anyone's throat. If you do that, you begin the eradication of what separates you from Islam, from the Catholic church, and from Marxists.I have to go, we can continue this later if you want.

I am not sure why you exclude the Catholic church from the 'Judeo-Christian rule' and lump it with Islam and Marxism?

141 posted on 01/04/2011 3:14:54 PM PST by SeeSac
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 140 | View Replies]

To: A_perfect_lady
But you're forgetting what makes Judeo-Christian rule the least obnoxious...

No I'm recognizing it is superior because of whom it's author is.

What makes it best is that it is predicated on free will and faith. It has to be freely chosen. You aren't to shove it down anyone's throat.

There is a lot of debate within Christianity about free will and faith. You are attempting to impose a view of Christianity based on your bias and not on Scripture. You are right Christianity is a faith of the heart. You can not force someone to believe. However, Scripture also calls for Christians to live by very specific rules.

For atheists it seems they only want the rules they come up with. Thus there is a conflict.

142 posted on 01/04/2011 3:42:09 PM PST by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 140 | View Replies]

To: A_perfect_lady; Alamo-Girl; xzins; spirited irish; wmfights; r9etb; YHAOS; TXnMA; MHGinTN; ...
Okay, if that's what you want: can you please clarify which laws are "higher" and which laws are "lower"?

Well, one would think that "higher laws" would be those conducive to human personal (and social, since man is "a social animal") well-being, most importantly including those conducive to a proper understanding of the order of Reality of which humans are parts and participants. We do not "make the rules" of the universe; such "rules" preexist us, and we live in them, according to them. We were born into them: They are "givens," about which humans were never consulted.

As for any "lower laws" — I think those are the ones that man makes for himself, by himself — through legislators and regulators for instance. That is, without conscious regard to the idea of there being any necessary universal truths, independent of human will.

Though it might get me into trouble with some of my Christian confreres to say so, the ancient Hermetic tradition actually obviates the entire distinction as between "higher" and "lower" laws.

This tradition harkens back to Hermes Trisgemistus. There are two schools of thought regarding this guy: (1) He was a complete fabrication of human imaginings; (2) he was a real historical figure, as attested to by numerous contemporaries and their descendants.

I do not know which is true. All I know (not being on the scene at the time to see for myself) is what is attributed to him: In regard to universal law, he said: "As above, so below." That is, no matter how many dimensions or spheres of reality there may turn out to be, there is only One Law that governs them all. For there is finally only One universe, one world system, a single Unity which at the same time lawfully manifests a virtual riot of diversity at all scales.

The Mandelbrot Set comes to mind as a "concrete" illustration of this insight.

The Source of such law can only be divine.

Which is to say that only what we have called "the 'higher law'" ultimately rules. "Lower law" — by contrast — is only as good as it images the "higher" one.

By which route I come to the conclusion: The Lord our God is One God; and His Creation — comprising Heaven and Earth — is one cosmos that lawfully manifests His Truth and and His creative (and sustaining) Will — at all scales and "times."

FWIW.

143 posted on 01/04/2011 4:39:15 PM PST by betty boop (Seek truth and beauty together; you will never find them apart. — F. M. Cornford)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 135 | View Replies]

To: betty boop
The Lord our God is One God; and His Creation — comprising Heaven and Earth — is one cosmos that lawfully manifests His Truth and and His creative (and sustaining) Will — at all scales and "times."

Dear Sister, it was worth wading through this entire thread -- just to encounter that gem!

144 posted on 01/04/2011 5:44:17 PM PST by TXnMA ("Allah": Satan's current alias...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 143 | View Replies]

To: SeeSac
I am not sure why you exclude the Catholic church from the 'Judeo-Christian rule' and lump it with Islam and Marxism?

It's had authoritarian tendencies.

145 posted on 01/04/2011 5:55:03 PM PST by A_perfect_lady (Islam is as Islam does.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 141 | View Replies]

To: betty boop
Well, one would think that "higher laws" would be those conducive to human personal (and social, since man is "a social animal") well-being, most importantly including those conducive to a proper understanding of the order of Reality of which humans are parts and participants. We do not "make the rules" of the universe; such "rules" preexist us, and we live in them, according to them. We were born into them: They are "givens," about which humans were never consulted. As for any "lower laws" — I think those are the ones that man makes for himself, by himself — through legislators and regulators for instance. That is, without conscious regard to the idea of there being any necessary universal truths, independent of human will.

I'll need examples.

146 posted on 01/04/2011 5:57:06 PM PST by A_perfect_lady (Islam is as Islam does.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 143 | View Replies]

To: A_perfect_lady; wmfights; betty boop
Bull patties. Atheism is not a positive stance, it is simply an absence of belief.

Bull patties, yourself. From the Apple dictionary: “noun the theory or belief that God does not exist.”

Perhaps you are an implicit Atheist (as opposed to an explicit Atheist)? If you are, you should identify yourself as such. Atheists, who do not describe themselves further are invariably taken to be explicit. Atheism not further defined would put you in the latter category.

As for might making right, it usually is accepted that it does, although people rarely admit it.” (#77 to wmfights)

Well then, you must accept as right the bloody subjugation of the Amerinds by the Spanish Conquistadors, or the centuries-long series of bloody raids along the Brit and French coasts conducted by the Vikings. Or be relieved to know that, after over five years of horror and destruction, the Allies finally learned that they had been right in opposing the Axis powers. They certainly looked still to be in the wrong in 1943, didn’t they. And even yet today, in cowering before various international bullies, most of the world seems to believe that liberty is a failed myth.

I'm certainly not a member of any atheist group. (#78 to betty boop)

Yet you rise in defense of an Atheist group . . . and a militantly hostile group at that, who are determined to permit no religion but theirs be recognized by the US.

If you want to argue with me, that's fine, but argue with ME, not some French mathematician that I don't give a rip about.” (again #78 to betty boop)

Miz boop cites authorities as examples of past failed theories or past successes to fortify a point she wishes to make. Do you imagine that the thoughts you’ve expressed have never been uttered before? Do you think that ignorance of past consequences protects you from present consequences?

And remember, I don't have to prove anything because you can't prove a negative.

Then you must, indeed, be an implicit Atheist. Apparently you’ve learned that it’s safer to simply utter assertions rather than have to actually defend anything

147 posted on 01/04/2011 5:59:33 PM PST by YHAOS (you betcha!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 65 | View Replies]

To: wmfights
I have not seen any place in the Scripture where they advocate forcing Christianity on anyone. If there is such a verse, by all means, share it with me.

And no, Christianity has not been reliably "superior." There were some very dark days some centuries back. Frankly, the superior code has been the American code of FREEDOM. That it is compatible with the free-will element of Christianity has been a happy coincidence resulting in the best country to live in that ever was. But introduce force, whether it be in the name of Marxism or Jesus, and you will kill what made this country great. Period.

148 posted on 01/04/2011 6:02:36 PM PST by A_perfect_lady (Islam is as Islam does.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 142 | View Replies]

To: metmom
But based on your arguments about the military providing spiritual counseling, you seem to be satisfied to shove YOUR atheism down our believing throats. Wouldn't that make you like as a muslim yourself?

Not at all. I don't mind them providing the counseling. I just don't want it to be mandatory. I've said this already.

149 posted on 01/04/2011 6:05:07 PM PST by A_perfect_lady (Islam is as Islam does.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 139 | View Replies]

To: YHAOS
Bull patties, yourself. From the Apple dictionary: “noun the theory or belief that God does not exist.”

Lack of belief, belief in lack, A does not equal B, B does not equal A, whatever. It is still not a unified movement. I've known Libertarian athiests and Marxists athiests. They only had one thing in common. Can you guess what that is, or is it happy hour where you live now?

Perhaps you are an implicit Atheist (as opposed to an explicit Atheist)? If you are, you should identify yourself as such. Atheists, who do not describe themselves further are invariably taken to be explicit. Atheism not further defined would put you in the latter category.

Define your little heart out. I don't believe in God. It doesn't mean I believe in a 70% tax bracket or starving the Russian farmers. It means I don't believe in God, period.

“As for might making right, it usually is accepted that it does, although people rarely admit it.” (#77 to wmfights) Well then, you must accept as right the bloody subjugation of the Amerinds by the Spanish Conquistadors, or the centuries-long series of bloody raids along the Brit and French coasts conducted by the Vikings. Or be relieved to know that, after over five years of horror and destruction, the Allies finally learned that they had been right in opposing the Axis powers. They certainly looked still to be in the wrong in 1943, didn’t they. And even yet today, in cowering before various international bullies, most of the world seems to believe that liberty is a failed myth.

You didn't understand what I was saying. I was saying that Christians have accepted that Might = Right, they just don't realize they've accepted it, because it's always worked in their favor. They've had quite a winning streak these last 700 years. They accept it as their due. Evidence that their God was RIGHT and their MIGHT proves it.

“I'm certainly not a member of any atheist group. (#78 to betty boop) Yet you rise in defense of an Atheist group . . . and a militantly hostile group at that, who are determined to permit no religion but theirs be recognized by the US.

Read back. I did not "rise to their defense." I merely agreed that it would be irritating to have this spiritual evaluation a MANDATORY part of my military career.

Miz boop cites authorities as examples of past failed theories or past successes to fortify a point she wishes to make. Do you imagine that the thoughts you’ve expressed have never been uttered before? Do you think that ignorance of past consequences protects you from present consequences?

I don't care who else has said it. Appeals to authority mean nothing to me, which is why I never use them. I do not care what any mathematician, author, philosopher, shephard, heir, politician, or movie star has said. Tell me your own thoughts in simple terms... or just show off your ability to Google, cut, and paste. I can tell you which approach will keep the lines of communication open with ME. If communicating with me is not important to you, then stop trying to communicate with me.

“And remember, I don't have to prove anything because you can't prove a negative.” Then you must, indeed, be an implicit Atheist. Apparently you’ve learned that it’s safer to simply utter assertions rather than have to actually defend anything

No, it is simply a logical fallacy that you have to believe in anything you can't prove the non-existence of. This is a basic.

150 posted on 01/04/2011 6:27:55 PM PST by A_perfect_lady (Islam is as Islam does.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 147 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-150151-173 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson