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Tower of Babelís Ruins Waiting for Archaeologists (Dispensational Caucus)
Israel National News ^ | January 3, 2011 | Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu

Posted on 01/04/2011 2:51:24 PM PST by GiovannaNicoletta

snip

Following years of devastation under the dictatorship of Saddam Hussein and the ensuing American invasion of Iraq, World Monuments Fund conservationist Jeff Allen told The New York Times this week that archeologists are beginning to work on ancient Babylonian sites and possibly restore some of them.

snip

(Excerpt) Read more at israelnationalnews.com ...


TOPICS: Current Events; General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: babel; babylon; dispensational; dispensationalism; godsgravesglyphs; towerofbabel
Looks like the restoration of the Tribulation city of Babylon is underway.
1 posted on 01/04/2011 2:51:25 PM PST by GiovannaNicoletta
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To: Deo confidimus; Alamo-Girl; Amityschild; AngieGal; AnimalLover; Ann de IL; aposiopetic; aragorn; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 01/04/2011 2:52:56 PM PST by GiovannaNicoletta
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

One can hope. ;-)


3 posted on 01/04/2011 2:53:53 PM PST by doc1019 (Martyrdom is a great thing, until it is your turn.)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

>>Looks like the restoration of the Tribulation city of Babylon is underway<<

Saddam himself started that. He intended it to be a palace but now they want to make it a tourist center and center of trade. Hmmm.


4 posted on 01/04/2011 2:56:29 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

The confirmation of the covenant is the main (next) item on the prophetic timetable.

Good post, though, it fits...


5 posted on 01/04/2011 2:58:22 PM PST by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

No pictures, come on guys?


6 posted on 01/04/2011 2:59:30 PM PST by STD (Obama is a cold-hearted, cold-blooded Marxist on a rush mission to take down America.)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

No pictures, come on guys?


7 posted on 01/04/2011 2:59:30 PM PST by STD (Obama is a cold-hearted, cold-blooded Marxist on a rush mission to take down America.)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

No pictures, come on guys?


8 posted on 01/04/2011 2:59:41 PM PST by STD (Obama is a cold-hearted, cold-blooded Marxist on a rush mission to take down America.)
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To: fishtank

I read last week that Israel would be happy with an “interim” peace deal....


9 posted on 01/04/2011 3:00:46 PM PST by GiovannaNicoletta
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

If this appears as a little red X, you can probably guess what it was.

10 posted on 01/04/2011 3:04:46 PM PST by firebrand
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

I have a sincere question, since the parenthetical along with the title notes that this is a Dispensational Caucus.

I think it is a simple one, and because it is simple, it might come across as ignorant. So I apologize if that is the case.

But here is is anyway. For Dispensationalism in 2010, is the Scofield Study Bible a relevant and/or authoritative resource?

Or has Dispensationalism gone beyond that?

Please respond in a charitable way, as this is a sincere inquiry. My experience at FR is that any discussion along these lines tends to get nasty very quickly and that is not the intent of my question. I would like to get a good feel for a good “all in” resource to understand Dispensationalism today, if such a resource even exists (most schools of thought are pretty diverse, so I would sort of expect that to be the same today with regards to Dispensationalism).

Thanks....


11 posted on 01/04/2011 3:10:28 PM PST by ConservativeDude
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To: ConservativeDude

The last time J. Vernon McGee had a chance to say anything about the Scofield Bible, he endorsed it.

I don’t pretend to understand all of Bible prophecy, but the classic sources are still quite valuable.

i.e. Scofield, Chafer, Darby, ... at least for me.


12 posted on 01/04/2011 3:13:51 PM PST by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

THX THX.


13 posted on 01/04/2011 3:18:58 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: ConservativeDude
Well, your question appears to be sincere and without the contempt and arrogance that we usually run into so you don't have to worry about any "nastiness" here today :). That's part of the reason for designating a thread a "caucus" - so that those who belong to the caucus can have a civilized discussion without the thread being poisoned.

For Dispensationalism in 2010, is the Scofield Study Bible a relevant and/or authoritative resource?

I personally have never read the Scofield Study Bible so I really can't speak with any knowledge about it.

Or has Dispensationalism gone beyond that?

Here is an excellent, succinct description of dispensationalism:

"What is dispensationalism and is it Biblical?"

Dispensationalism is a system of theology that has two primary distinctives. 1) A consistently literal interpretation of Scripture, especially Bible prophecy. 2) A distinction between Israel and the church in God's program.

Dispensationalists claim that their principle of hermeneutics is that of literal interpretation, which means giving each word the meaning it would commonly have in everyday usage. Symbols, figures of speech and types are all interpreted plainly in this method, and this is in no way contrary to literal interpretation. Even symbols and figurative sayings have literal meanings behind them.

There are at least three reasons why this is the best way to view Scripture. First, philosophically, the purpose of language itself seems to require that we interpret it literally. Language was given by God for the purpose of being able to communicate with man. The second reason is biblical. Every prophecy about Jesus Christ in the Old Testament was fulfilled literally. Jesus' birth, Jesus' ministry, Jesus' death, and Jesus' resurrection all occurred exactly and literally as the Old Testament predicted. There is no non-literal fulfillment of these prophecies in the New Testament. This argues strongly for the literal method. If literal interpretation is not used in studying the Scriptures, there is no objective standard by which to understand the Bible. Each and every person would be able to interpret the Bible as he saw fit. Biblical interpretation would devolve into “what this passage says to me...” instead of “the Bible says...” Sadly, this is already the case in much of what is called biblical interpretation today.

Dispensational theology teaches that there are two distinct peoples of God: Israel and the church. Dispensationalists believe that salvation has always been by faith—in God in the Old Testament and specifically in God the Son in the New Testament. Dispensationalists hold that the church has not replaced Israel in God’s program and the Old Testament promises to Israel have not been transferred to the church. They believe that the promises God made to Israel (for land, many descendants, and blessings) in the Old Testament will be ultimately fulfilled in the 1000-year period spoken of in Revelation chapter 20. Dispensationalists believe that just as God is in this age focusing His attention on the church, He will again in the future focus His attention on Israel (Romans 9-11).

Using this system as a basis, dispensationalists understand the Bible to be organized into seven dispensations: Innocence (Genesis 1:1–3:7), conscience (Genesis 3:8–8:22), human government (Genesis 9:1–11:32), promise (Genesis 12:1–Exodus 19:25), law (Exodus 20:1–Acts 2:4), grace (Acts 2:4–Revelation 20:3), and the millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:4-6). Again, these dispensations are not paths to salvation, but manners in which God relates to man. Dispensationalism, as a system, results in a premillennial interpretation of Christ’s second coming and usually a pretribulational interpretation of the rapture. To summarize, dispensationalism is a theological system that emphasizes the literal interpretation of Bible prophecy, recognizes a clear distinction between Israel and the church, and organizes the Bible into the different dispensations it presents.

As far as the dispensational interpretation of eschatology, dispensationalists read the prophetic Scriptures as literal events that have never happened in the history of the world and will happen at some point in the future.

We see the re-birth of Israel as the "super-sign" - the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies that jump-started the ticking of God's prophetic time clock. Since then, we have watched over the years as end-time prophecies spoken of in Scripture have literally come to pass such as the formation of a global government, the ability to number and track every person in the world, the development of the Russian/Islamic alliance, the alignment of all the nations of the world against Israel, the marked increase in natural disasters, earthquakes in diverse places, and, in general, weird weather - all of these occurrences are prophesied in Scripture to happen shortly before the return of Jesus Christ.

Does this help at all?

14 posted on 01/04/2011 3:36:47 PM PST by GiovannaNicoletta
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
Babylon died off when the Euphrates River moved away and the harbors silted in. It was rebuilt as Baghdad on the much more stable Tigris. That city was destroyed when the Arabs were inhospitable to the emissaries of the Great Khan (of the Mongols). Actually, they murdered them and chopped up their bodies and sent them back to the Mongols as a sign of disrespect. The Mongols then came and destroyed Baghdad and killed all the people (estimates are upwards of 800,000 deaths in that act).

Eventually after several hundred years of slavery under their new Turkish masters the Arabs were allowed to rebuild their town.

Oil was discovered. The Arabs in Baghdad got immensely rich. They blew it all in all sorts of acts of stupidity. And ended up in a nearly self-destructive war with Iran, and were conquered and rehabilitated by the Americans.

They are as inhospitable and insulting to foreigners today as they were back when the Mongols came to trade.

They could have had a nice country, a great city, and immense wealth but they've repeatedly chosen to be boorish and rude.

Civilization was invented in the region.

15 posted on 01/04/2011 3:43:03 PM PST by muawiyah (Hey,)
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To: SunkenCiv

GGG ping


16 posted on 01/04/2011 3:46:49 PM PST by Captain Beyond (The Hammer of the gods! (Just a cool line from a Led Zep song))
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

http://kenraggio.com/Daniel-Four-Beasts-17-EU-Parliament-Tower-Babel.jpg


17 posted on 01/04/2011 3:52:16 PM PST by Para-Ord.45
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
Thanks for the ping. I really enjoy reading about this.
18 posted on 01/04/2011 5:19:03 PM PST by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: fishtank; ConservativeDude
i.e. Scofield, Chafer, Darby, ... at least for me.

I'm assuming the King James is good as well.

19 posted on 01/04/2011 5:22:02 PM PST by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: wmfights; GiovannaNicoletta; ConservativeDude; fishtank

I’ve been studying some of the earliest Church Fathers. Did you know that all that I have been able to find writing of were dispensationalists? I kid you not. Irenaeus wrote at length in his Against Heresy books about the future Anti Christ, seven year Tribulation period, the thousand year reign and even the world after Armageddon. He actually talks about John having written Revelation during Domition’s reign which was from 81AD to 96AD which is well after 70AD when preterists etc claim all prophecy was fulfilled. It’s a fascinating read.

I was reading book five of Irenaeus today. It can be found online here.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.vii.i.html


20 posted on 01/04/2011 6:40:14 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear

Thank you for the link to a great source.


21 posted on 01/04/2011 7:24:06 PM PST by Library Lady
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To: Captain Beyond; StayAt HomeMother; Ernest_at_the_Beach; 1010RD; 21twelve; 24Karet; ...

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Thanks Captain Beyond.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.
 

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22 posted on 01/04/2011 7:55:56 PM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: Captain Beyond; StayAt HomeMother; Ernest_at_the_Beach; 1010RD; 21twelve; 24Karet; ...

· GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother, and Ernest_at_the_Beach ·
· join list or digest · view topics · view or post blog · bookmark · post a topic · subscribe ·

 
 Antiquity Journal
 & archive
 Archaeologica
 Archaeology
 Archaeology Channel
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 Bronze Age Forum
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 Excerpt, or Link only?
 


Thanks Captain Beyond.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.
 

· History topic · history keyword · archaeology keyword · paleontology keyword ·
· Science topic · science keyword · Books/Literature topic · pages keyword ·


23 posted on 01/04/2011 7:55:56 PM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

Thanks for the ping!


24 posted on 01/04/2011 8:23:42 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
This argues strongly for the literal method. If literal interpretation is not used in studying the Scriptures, there is no objective standard by which to understand the Bible. Each and every person would be able to interpret the Bible as he saw fit.

God gave us judgment, logic, and reason, and the ability to study old texts and documents and make logical sense of them. It is often the case that the stories you read in the OT are sufficiently real while the religious interpretations are highly questionable. The flood for instance is a true story, while the idea that a supposedly omniscient and omnipotent God would ever need or want to wipe the planet as punishment for human misconduct is not tenable. Likewise the story of God "killing" Uzzah for trying to stabilize the ark (of the covenant) on a wagon is not accurate; the thing was clearly a primitive capacitor and the man electrocuted himself in touching it.

25 posted on 01/05/2011 2:05:10 AM PST by wendy1946
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To: muawiyah
Oil was discovered. The Arabs in Baghdad got immensely rich. They blew it all in all sorts of acts of stupidity. And ended up in a nearly self-destructive war with Iran, and were conquered and rehabilitated by the Americans.

They're still muslims, aren't they? How is that being rehabilitated?

26 posted on 01/05/2011 2:08:16 AM PST by wendy1946
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To: wendy1946
the idea that a supposedly omniscient and omnipotent God would ever need or want to wipe the planet as punishment for human misconduct is not tenable.

Are you aware of the entirety of the reason why God wiped out every living thing with a flood (with the exception of Noah and his family)?

And, just because we, as limited, finite human beings, cannot always grasp the reasons why God does something, does not mean that the action taken by God or the reasons for the action are not "tenable". God did say, after all, that "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts." (Isa. 55:7).

We don't understand much of why God does what He does. Sometimes He explains it to us, as in the case of the Flood, and sometimes He doesn't. But He is never wrong and He always has a purpose for everything He does.

27 posted on 01/05/2011 2:19:23 AM PST by GiovannaNicoletta
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

The flood was a cosmic event which we simply got in the way of and which nothing could have saved us from. The entire solar system was impacted, not just our own planet.


28 posted on 01/05/2011 2:25:48 AM PST by wendy1946
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To: wendy1946
No, actually there was a very specific purpose God had for sending the flood.

Chapter Six of Genesis begins with a cryptic, concise statement of the moral decay and corruption that had gradually filled the earth since the children of Adam and Eve began to populate the Pre-Flood world.

"When men began to multiply on the face of the ground, and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were fair; and they took to wife such of them as they chose. Then the LORD said, 'My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for he is flesh, but his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.'

"The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown. The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. So the LORD said, 'I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the ground, man and beast and creeping things and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.'

"But Noah found favor [grace] in the eyes of the LORD. These are the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation; Noah walked with God. And Noah had three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

"Now the earth was [thoroughly] corrupt in God's sight, and the earth was filled [continually] with violence. And God saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth." (Genesis 6:1-12)

The term, "the sons of God" (bene elohim) in Gen. 6:1 almost certainly refers to the angels. (See Job 1:6, 2:1, 38:7). This is the preferred interpretation of most scholars today and is consistent with 1 Pet. 3:18-22, 2 Pet. 2:4-5, and Jude 6-7. Although Christian men and women are called "sons of God" or "children of God" in the New Testament, the term bene elohim refers to the angels in the Old Testament. Although the angels in heaven evidently are not sexually active (Mark 12:25) this does not mean that they lack reproductive ability. Fallen angels may also be able to introduce genetic alterations into the human gene pool through demon possession of susceptible individuals, evidently especially women. In one way or another, one particular group of fallen angels apparently "possessed" human males --or perhaps in some way had direct sexual intercourse with human females--with the end result that a race of fallen giants, the Nephilim and/or Rephaim, was brought into the world prior to the Flood.

Gen. 6:4 says this genetic impregnation of human women by fallen angels also occurred after the Flood, leading at that time to the giants such as Goliath or Og, King of Bashan. (Numbers. 13:33, 1 Sam. 17). Deuteronomy 18:10 describes Og's bedstead, "...behold, his bedstead was a bedstead of iron; is it not in Rabbah of the Ammonites? Nine cubits (13.5 feet) was its length, and four cubits (6 feet) its breadth, according to the common cubit."

David's slaying of the giant Goliath is recorded in 1 Samuel 17 where we learn how big he was, "And there came out from the camp of the Philistines a champion named Goliath, of Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span (9.5 - 10.8 ft). He had a helmet of bronze on his head, and he was armed with a coat of mail, and the weight of the coat was five thousand shekels (~125 pounds) of bronze. And he had greaves of bronze upon his legs, and a javelin of bronze slung between his shoulders. And the shaft of his spear was like a weaver's beam, and his spear's head weighed six hundred shekels (~15 pounds) of iron; and his shield-bearer went before him."

Genetic defects seem to be associated with these giants. 2 Samuel 21:18-22 records the following glimpse of the giants still living in Israel in the time of King David, "After this there was again war with the Philistines at Gob; then Sibbecai the Hushathite slew Saph, who was one of the descendants of the giants. "And there was again war with the Philistines at Gob; and Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, the Bethlehemite, slew Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver's beam. And there was again war at Gath, where there was a man of great stature, who had six fingers on each hand, and six toes on each foot, twenty-four in number; and he also was descended from the giants. And when he taunted Israel, Jonathan the son of Shimei, David's brother, slew him. These four were descended from the giants in Gath; and they fell by the hand of David and by the hand of his servants."

snip

I believe in allowing the text of Genesis 6 to speak for itself:

"And God said to Noah, 'I have determined to make an end of all flesh; for the earth is filled with violence through them; behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Make yourself an ark of gopher wood; make rooms in the ark, and cover it inside and out with pitch. This is how you are to make it: the length of the ark three hundred cubits, its breadth fifty cubits, and its height thirty cubits. Make a roof for the ark, and finish it to a cubit above; and set the door of the ark in its side; make it with lower, second, and third decks.

"For behold, I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall die. But I will establish my covenant with you; and you shall come into the ark, you, your sons, your wife, and your sons' wives with you.

"And of every living thing of all flesh, you shall bring two of every sort into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they shall be male and female. Of the birds according to their kinds, and of the animals according to their kinds, of every creeping thing of the ground according to its kind, two of every sort shall come in to you, to keep them alive. Also take with you every sort of food that is eaten, and store it up; and it shall serve as food for you and for them.' Noah did this; he did all that God commanded him."

Note the reference twice in this passage to the impending destruction of "all flesh," except for those harbored in the Ark.

ON THE GREAT FLOOD OF NOAH

So, again, God had very specific reasons for sending the flood and taking out every living thing. Satan and the angels who chose to rebel against God with him were attempting to pollute the human gene pool to prevent the birth of Jesus Christ. They mated with human women and produced offspring called "Nephilim". The only family who was, as God put it, "perfect in his generations", or who had not been contaminated by fallen angels, was Noah's.

So as we see from the word of God, the Flood was not an accident; it was a specific act of God done for the purpose of cleansing the earth and beginning again with uncontaminated human beings who would start a new generational line which would result in the birth of Jesus Christ.

God has a purpose for everything He does.

29 posted on 01/05/2011 2:48:28 AM PST by GiovannaNicoletta
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

As nearly as I’ve ever been able to tell from reading, God works entirely within the basic laws of physics; if you want wholesale violations of mathematical and physical laws you need to be talking to the evolutionites who specialize in that sort of thing. The problem arises from the idea of omnipotence and whether we view that as meaning ‘having all the power which anybody could imagine’ or ‘having all the power that there actually is’. The one causes conundrums, the other does not. God had nothing to do with the flood. The spirit realm, including God, has very limited powers to act in this physical world which we inhabit. In the realm which God inhabits, there are no floods or cosmic catastrophes. That’s the good news and what Jesus meant in saying that his father’s realm is not of this world.


30 posted on 01/05/2011 3:29:13 AM PST by wendy1946
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

Absolutely, that is very helpful. Let me digest and I may come back with a specific question.

Many thanks.


31 posted on 01/05/2011 5:09:18 AM PST by ConservativeDude
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

My son was posted close to there. He sent pictures home of some of the ruins. Interesting.


32 posted on 01/05/2011 6:52:33 AM PST by georgiabelle
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To: CynicalBear

Yes. Replace one idol with another.


33 posted on 01/05/2011 7:14:50 AM PST by worst-case scenario (Striving to reach the light)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
They are probably looking at the wrong place. The Tower of Babel was probably not at Babylon. It was probably at the city of Eridu which is south of Babylon very close to Ur. Eridu is credited as the first city of the Sumerians. It probably is the city of Enoch built by Cain (or his son depending on how you read the text in Genesis). Interestingly enough, Eridu has an incomplete Ziggaruat that was abandoned. The name Eridu in the Sumerian language has the same spelling as Babylon. Yet Babylon was not founded (so archaeologist think) until the later 3rd millennium BC. Eridu is probably the better choice to look for the tower.
34 posted on 01/05/2011 10:00:39 AM PST by fatez ("If you're going through Hell, keep going." Winston Churchill)
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To: wendy1946
God had nothing to do with the flood.

Well, God did say He had everything to do with the Flood and gave us a very detailed record of that Flood and why He did it. If you really believe that God has any limitations whatsoever, then you don't know Him at all. The God Who spoke into existence not only the universe that we have been allowed by Him to explore and learn about, but also the planet we inhabit and all universes and all worlds has limitations? Where in the world did you get that looney idea? You can't possibly be serious. And you certainly can't back it up with any Scripture.

You have jumped into the realm of denying the plain, clear, inarguable Word of God, which I have absolutely zero patience for, and your denials of the Scripture, which God wrote by the way, has absolutely no place on a Dispensational Caucus forum.

This conversation will go no further.

35 posted on 01/05/2011 1:51:01 PM PST by GiovannaNicoletta
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To: muawiyah

Fantastic summary!!


36 posted on 01/05/2011 11:55:02 PM PST by Cronos (Kto jestem? Nie wiem! Ale moj Bog wie!)
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To: wendy1946
The spirit realm, including God, has very limited powers to act in this physical world which we inhabit. In the realm which God inhabits, there are no floods or cosmic catastrophes.

What beliefs are that? Are they in scripture?
37 posted on 01/05/2011 11:56:32 PM PST by Cronos (Kto jestem? Nie wiem! Ale moj Bog wie!)
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To: Cronos

That’s apparent from the world around us. The biggest problem most people have with religion is the question of evil in the world, and not evolution. The question of evil takes numerous forms, but they all boil down to the question of what the word “omnipotent” is supposed to mean, e.g. why would a supposedly omnipotent and well-intentioned God allow babies and small children to die of malaria? See what I mean?


38 posted on 01/06/2011 4:36:49 AM PST by wendy1946
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To: wendy1946
Hmm ~ did I say "totally"?

There's a reason for that.

BTW, I can "rehabilitate you" and then you hit the street and strike up a conversation with the first floozy who looks like she's good for some smack or something.

Sometimes it just doesn't work.

The Mongols did it the opposite way ~ they simply killed them all ~ but, perversely, they came back.

39 posted on 01/06/2011 5:34:18 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: fatez

Still, the oldest “temple sites” or “graveyards” are upstream a long way in Turkey. This article is about one of ‘em 12000 years old. Back then there was no Black Sea ~ just the Black Lake totally cut off from the Mediterranean. Take a look at: http://www.archaeology.org/0811/abstracts/turkey.html


40 posted on 01/06/2011 5:41:24 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah
I have read quite a bit about Göbekli Tepe. I hope to visit there someday. Here is a speculation / conjecture I have. There has been a lot of reporting the last ten plus years on the Black Sea and Persian Gulf flooding. Lake Agassiz has also been in the recent news. I have thought for a while that maybe the Black Sea and the Persian Gulf flooded at the same time when Lake Agassiz’ glacial dam broke. Their dating is close and the reason for both flooding is the same, rising oceanic levels. The more conventional interpretation that the Persian Gulf flooding took hundreds of years is now being reevaluated. It may be that both took place together.
41 posted on 01/06/2011 7:53:46 AM PST by fatez ("If you're going through Hell, keep going." Winston Churchill)
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To: fatez
Thanks for the note on that. Something to watch for as dates are made more certain. At the same time we have to remember that gravity controls sea level in any particular place so you could have a big slosh in the North Atlantic and yet there'd be no change in that region, but maybe a big change in the vicinity of the South Pacific.

It's not the case that there's a gradual change everywhere.

Again, the end of the last period of maximum glaciation took place in fits and starts with a multiplicity of floods, tsunamis that affected coastal regions, and such serious devastation of whatever had gone on before that we know little of that period of time.

Here's a thought ~ we know that mankind's most natural environment is the delta region of any large river. There he may find plentiful game and extensive flat fields of growing plants of all sorts. When ocean levels rise, these deltas are flooded and lost. Mankind must move "uphill" and wait generations for yet more savannah to appear as silt laden soils flow toward the ocean and drop their load.

When ocean levels fall, the old savannahs are revealed, but they are immediately ripped to pieces by fresh water flowing off the land. It takes generations more for siltation to repair the injury and once again provide Mankind with his most suitible habitat.

Until our modern times the world has never seen such a huge mass of human beings. For those who understand Ice Age mechanics it would be easy to see that we are on the very precipice of more destruction of more people than has ever happened in all of human history on this planet. Some will be washed away. Some will starve. Some will die of intense cold. Others will die because there's nowhere for them to go.

We have among our number those who'd like to bring back the cold. Others would prefer that we continue to try to warm our world.

42 posted on 01/06/2011 8:21:41 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: wendy1946

Do you have any info on what exactly happened and how it affected the solar system?
Thanks in advance


43 posted on 01/07/2011 5:15:21 AM PST by winodog
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To: winodog
There's reason to believe that the entire makeup of the pre-flood system was substantially different from what we see now. Simplest way to view it is looking at the axis tilts of our present system:

Axial tilts of our system from Wikipedia...

Axial tilt of major celestial bodies

Object Axial tilt (°) Axial tilt (radians)
Mercury ~0.01 0.00
Venus 177.4 3.10
Earth 23.44 0.41
Moon 6.688 0.03
Mars 25.19 0.44
Ceres ~4 0.07
Pallas ~60 ~1
Jupiter 3.13 0.06
Saturn 26.73 0.47
Uranus 97.77 1.71
Neptune 28.32 0.49
Pluto 119.61 2.09
Makemake

Haumea
Eris

The problem from the perspective of uniformitarian astronomers is obvious enough.  If our system had formed up from a swirling disk of solar material as claimed, all axial tilts should be approximately the same.

What the data appears to be saying is that the sun somehow or other captured most of the other bodies and did not originate with them...

In fact, another way to interpret the data would be to claim that the sun, Jupiter, and Mercury with tilts less than ten might have been an original system;   That Uranus and Pluto with their odd tilts were probably captured separately, but that the three bodies I have in red i.e. Earth, Mars, Saturn, and Neptune with their tilts of approximately 25 degrees constituted some sort of an elder system which the sun captured at some point.

I mean, if you were looking for a root cause for the catastrophes you read about in ancient literature, that would do for starters....

44 posted on 01/07/2011 8:17:26 AM PST by wendy1946
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