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[Chapter 1] Great Cities of the Bible: Babylon; The City of Occult
The Moody Church ^ | Dr. Erwin W. Lutzer

Posted on 01/04/2011 4:57:04 PM PST by wmfights

Thousands of years ago, the king of a great city ordered that this inscription be carved in stone at the city gate: “Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon, the pious prince appointed by the will of Marduk...full of prudent deliberation... the never-tiring governor who always has at heart the worship at Esagila and Ezida... the firstborn son of Nabopolassar, King of Babylon am I.

“I had the gates built of sheer blue stone, on which bulls and dragons were elaborately painted.

“I let the temple of Marduk, highest of all, supreme of gods, a place of joy and jubilation for major and minor deities, rise as a mountain with asphalt and bricks within the boundaries of Babylon.”

Those are the words of a proud man, a man later brought low by the God of heaven.

In 1988, astrology made headlines when news leaked out that Nancy Reagan controlled the schedule of her husband, the former president, by staying in touch with an astrologer by the name of Joan Quigley. Thousands of people became interested in astrology as people sought the path to this hidden knowledge. The encyclopedia of astrology claims that no one who ever has investigated carefully this “science” has ever rejected it. Astrologers claim that it can be applied to all areas of human experience.

Astrology originated in Babylon, one of the oldest cities of the world. After the flood, God commanded the people to fill the earth (Genesis 9:1). But a descendent of Ham named Nimrod became a mighty hunter (10:9), and decided that he and his descendants would begin a kingdom (11:4) that was later called Babel (11:9). As a symbol of their unity they began a building project. Because there are no natural stones in the Plain of Shinar, (about 50 miles from present-day Baghdad), they made bricks and burned them thoroughly (11:3) to make a solid monument.

“They said, ‘Come, let us build for ourselves a city, and a tower whose top will reach into heaven, and let us make for ourselves a name, otherwise we will be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth’” (11:4).

And thus, Babylon was begun.

Ancient Babylon

The builders of the tower of Babel disobeyed God on several counts. (1) They stayed together when God had asked them to “fill the earth.” No matter, they believed there was strength in numbers. Then, (2) they built a tower, a staircase that was to reach from earth to heaven. This is a ziggurat, used in ancient forms of worship. They believed that the stars were gods, so the closer to them the better. In defiance of God, they began to consult these heavenly objects. Finally, (3) they also sinned by desiring to “make a name for themselves.” They substituted strength in their own achievements for faith in the living God.

From these ancient beginnings, astrology (which is the doorway to the occult) began to develop. Scholars have identified dozens of techniques used in the New Age Movement today that were already practiced during the early days of Babylon. These ancients also consulted the powers; they developed power to command the supernatural and even believed in reincarnation. That’s why Babylon is always referred to in the Scriptures as a city of rebellion and false religion.

The first stage in Babylon’s history was the Tower of Babel, and under men such as Hammurabi, who ruled for 62 years, laws were codified, giving the people the opportunity to exercise freedoms. These were the days when Israel was in Egypt, struggling under the hand of the Pharaohs.

Revived Babylon (600 BC-500 BC)

After this, Babylon drifts away from the pages of Scripture for nearly a thousand years, but then it reappears in about 600 B.C. when Hezekiah foolishly let representatives of Babylon see the treasures, the utensils, and furniture of Solomon’s Temple. As Babylon grew in power, it became an enemy of Israel.

When Nebuchadnezzar became King of Babylon, he made three sieges against Jerusalem. Finally in 586 B.C. he destroyed the city and Solomon’s temple. Thousands of captives were carried off to Babylon along with the vessels of the house of the Lord. God’s people were humiliated and remained captive in Babylon about 70 years.

Daniel was one of the young men who found himself in Babylon, living in a strange country. As he walked the streets of the city, he no doubt saw the Ishtar Gate with all of its splendor; he saw the Hanging Gardens and the reconstructed Tower of Babel. This young man promised he would not “defile himself” with the culture that surrounded him (Daniel 1:8).

By the way, proud King Nebuchadnezzar eventually did come to believe in God, but only after he was brought low, living with animals in the field (5:21). In the end, we read, “Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, exalt and honor the King of heaven, for all His works are true and His ways just, and He is able to humble those who walk in pride” (4:37).

Nebuchadnezzar’s grandson, Belteshazzar, held a great feast and asked that the vessels which his grandfather, Nebuchadnezzar, had taken out of the temple in Jerusalem, be brought to him so that he might desecrate them. “Suddenly the finger of a man’s hand emerged and began writing opposite the lampstand on the plaster of the wall of the king’s palace, and the king saw the back of the hand that did the writing. Then the king’s face grew pale, and his thoughts alarmed him, and his hip joints went slack and his knees began knocking together” (5:5,6).

Daniel was asked to interpret the writing, and the message was: God has numbered the days of your kingdom, you have been found deficient, and your kingdom now is divided and given over to the Medes and the Persians (vv. 26-28). That prophecy was fulfilled on that very evening. Archaeologists tell us that Cyrus the Mede and his men diverted part of the water of the Euphrates which ran under the city wall causing the water level to fall and his men were able to slip under the gate into the city. The Medes and Persians were now supreme.

Once again Babylon faded as a world power. Alexander the Great tried to enlarge it, but after his reign, it fell apart. When the Turks established the Ottoman Empire, Babylon came under their control. And because they sided with Germany in World War II, that empire was divided up into separate nations including Iraq and Kuwait.

Though Babylon is no longer a world power, its occultism has spread throughout the world. Its paganism became rooted in Pergamum and Rome. And its practices infiltrated the Christian church (this will be explained more fully when we study the city of Rome).

Present Day Babylon

What about the present city of Babylon? Prior to “Desert Storm” of 1990, Saddam Hussein had begun to rebuild it, striving to duplicate the city as it looked during the days of King Nebuchadnezzar. He also minted money with his own profile on the coin, superimposed on that of Nebuchadnezzar. The reason is obvious: just as Nebuchadnezzar besieged Jerusalem, desecrated the temple, and humiliated the Jews; so, Saddam Hussein would like to conquer Israel today.

Past history sheds light on present day hostilities in the Middle East. We’ve learned that the Medes and the Persians fought together to conquer Babylon. The modern day country of Iran is ancient Persia. This country is to be sharply distinguished from Iraq,

As I mentioned, centuries before Christ, Babylon fell to the Persians and Medes. Persia is modern-day Iran; this country must be sharply distinguished from Iraq; both countries are Muslim, but the Iranians (Persians) are not Arabs. The Medes of past centuries are the Kurds whom Saddam Hussein so mercilessly oppressed. Thus, it appears as if Babylon (represented by Saddam Hussein) is repaying the Medes (Kurds) for participating with the Persians (Iranians) in capturing Babylon many centuries earlier.

Trying to understand the hostilities of the Middle East is not easy. The various countries have their own heritage and interests that are not well understood in the west. All that we know is that Babylon has perpetuated false religion in the past and will do so again in the future.

The Future of Babylon

What role will Babylon play in the future? Will the actual city be rebuilt? The book of Revelation (chapters 17 and 18) speaks about a Babylon that is yet future, a Babylon that will be so evil it will be destroyed by God. Whether these prophecies are literal or symbolic is a matter of disagreement. Those who say it will be rebuilt point out that at least a few prophecies about Babylon’s destruction have never been literally fulfilled. In Isaiah 13, the prophet says that many nations will gather together to destroy Babylon and that when this happens, God will punish the world for its evil. At that time Babylon will fall not to its neighbors, but to those who are from a far country from the “farthest horizons” (Isaiah 13:12). Jeremiah makes essentially the same predictions in chapters 51 and 52.

If Babylon is literally rebuilt, It will be because of oil. Europe is more dependent upon Middle East oil than even the United States. And whoever controls oil, controls the economy of the world. We don’t know how it might all come about, but with God, all things are possible.

The most graphic description of a future Babylon is in Revelation 17 and 18 where a woman who is clothed in purple and scarlet and rides a beast who is the anti-Christ. This woman has enough authority to control Antichrist and those countries that have come under his power. And in her hand she has a cup filled with abominations, unclean things, and immorality. And upon her forehead, a name was written, “Babylon the great, the mother of harlots and of the abominations of the earth.” Later, people rejoice because Babylon has fallen and God has repaid her for her sins.

Whether literal or symbolic, Babylon, with its occult religion, will be completely destroyed by God’s wrath.

Several things seem clear. As the end times approach, the religion of Babylon will be revived. People will be studying astrology, seeking fortune tellers, and looking into crystal balls. The worship of the stars is the most influential cult of all history. All that we need to do is to take a long look at our own culture with its “New Age” religion, with its emphasis on spirituality, but not Christ. The religion of Babylon is among us.

God mocks those who depend upon astrology for their guidance. Speaking of Babylon, Isaiah pronounced this judgment, “But evil will come upon you which you will not know how to charm away; And disaster will fall on you for which you cannot atone; and destruction about which you do not know will come on you suddenly...You are wearied with your many counsels; Let now the astrologers, those who prophesy by the stars, those who predict by the new moons, stand up and save you from what will come upon you... There is none to save you” (Isaiah 47:11-15).

In the end, the stars cannot save those who consult them. Even, those who seek the stars “for fun” are shaking their fist in the face of God. Disaster will come upon them that they will not be able to “charm away.” The religion of astrology, the religion of Babylon, is deceitful and desperately wicked.

“Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the passion of her immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed acts of immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her sensuality” (Revelation 18:2,3).

Goodbye, Babylon!


TOPICS: Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: babylon; davidrohl; rohl
Several things seem clear. As the end times approach, the religion of Babylon will be revived. People will be studying astrology, seeking fortune tellers, and looking into crystal balls. The worship of the stars is the most influential cult of all history. All that we need to do is to take a long look at our own culture with its “New Age” religion, with its emphasis on spirituality, but not Christ. The religion of Babylon is among us.

God mocks those who depend upon astrology for their guidance. Speaking of Babylon, Isaiah pronounced this judgment, “But evil will come upon you which you will not know how to charm away; And disaster will fall on you for which you cannot atone; and destruction about which you do not know will come on you suddenly...You are wearied with your many counsels; Let now the astrologers, those who prophesy by the stars, those who predict by the new moons, stand up and save you from what will come upon you... There is none to save you” (Isaiah 47:11-15).


1 posted on 01/04/2011 4:57:11 PM PST by wmfights
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To: Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; GiovannaNicoletta; ...
Ping

A new series I hope you find interesting.

2 posted on 01/04/2011 5:00:06 PM PST by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: wmfights

“The encyclopedia of astrology claims that no one who ever has investigated carefully this “science” has ever rejected it. Astrologers claim that it can be applied to all areas of human experience.”

WOW! Talk about “self fulfilling” prophecies!

Not to mention “conflict of interest”.

But, what can be expected from star-gazers?

And. come to think of it, the ‘profession’ of psychiatry claimms we are all in need of their services.


3 posted on 01/04/2011 5:05:04 PM PST by GladesGuru (In a society predicated upon freedom, it is essential to examine principles,)
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To: GladesGuru
And. come to think of it, the ‘profession’ of psychiatry claimms we are all in need of their services.

LOL

4 posted on 01/04/2011 5:10:12 PM PST by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: GladesGuru
Psychiatry has its place, there are people who truly need their meds. Psychology, however, is far less valuable (IMHO).

FWIW, when a psychiatrist we know was asked if he thought some people who are being treated for mental illness were actually demonically possessed he said, ”Yes and I can tell the difference.”

5 posted on 01/04/2011 5:25:29 PM PST by Spudx7
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To: Spudx7

It seems to me that we Christians ought to be able to follow the examples of Christ and the early church and deal with these sorts of things in the name and by the authority of Christ. There’s just so much teaching that has been neglected over the many centuries since the early church. - I can remember many years ago, I had a great uncle who was in a mental hospital; he was always muttering to someone or something else when I was there. I took authority over it in the name of Jesus Christ, and that stopped and never happened again. - I don’t know what your religion is, but that’s the truth about my experience in that regard. - We just don’t have the teaching in these days, but I was simply following scripture the best I could.


6 posted on 01/04/2011 6:31:45 PM PST by Twinkie (Awake and strengthen that which remains . . . . . . . . Revelation 3)
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To: wmfights

Nibiru.


7 posted on 01/04/2011 6:33:42 PM PST by nolongerademocrat ("Before you ask G-d for something, first thank G-d for what you already have." B'rachot 30b)
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To: wmfights

Very much so.

Thank you.


8 posted on 01/04/2011 6:38:41 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Twinkie

I knew of a backslidden Christian nurse who worked with mentally unstable people and one day had a patient tell her that she couldn’t talk to her any more because her spirit wouldn’t let her. Apparently the patient’s spirit didn’t like the the nurse’s spirit.

Really freaked out the nurse.


9 posted on 01/04/2011 6:42:28 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: nolongerademocrat

Nibiru is a hoax, linked to a religious cult, and having nothing to do with science.


10 posted on 01/04/2011 6:58:16 PM PST by caww
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To: wmfights

oh yes, I was following saddams rebuilding of Babylon when he had determined to do so......but of course he was a tyrant that was going to go down...it was just a matter of when.

There will continue to be many speculations of how Babylon and where it really is or represents prophetically, especially with the internet opening the once secluded places ...everyones chimming in it seems.

Some are already saying the worlds leading monetary and banking systems worldwide will be headquarted there as well as large compaies etc.... The Middle East does do buildings in a huge way so the area will be interesting to follow as things begin to roll out there. But the whole Middle East is growing leaps and bounds...as we knew that it would. However the super powers are watching this closely...they will not allow this to get out of their hands.

Interesting also is the US has recently built the largest Embassey in the world in Iraq,..several football fields in length alone. That was rather interesting awhile ago when I learned about it going up during the war. So the United States footprint is firmly planted for whatever may develope in the future.


11 posted on 01/04/2011 7:16:54 PM PST by caww
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To: wmfights

Photos of Us Embassey in Iraq...that baby is HUGE!

http://www.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&biw=1076&bih=457&tbs=isch:1&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&oq=&gs_rfai=&q=photos%20us%20embassy%20in%20iraq


12 posted on 01/04/2011 7:21:41 PM PST by caww
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To: wmfights

IMO, Babylon is a metaphor for every belief outside of Christ. In Christ, there is salavation, outside of Christ you find the Anti-Christ Babylonian beliefs.
The two witnesses of Revelation are the Church, and we are seeing the two witnesses being killed and the world is rejoicing as the Church is finally overcome with a great falling away, sin, scandal and leaving her first love. The testimony is almost gone and Babylon is rejoicing. Jesus must be coming soon!


13 posted on 01/04/2011 7:27:34 PM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: wmfights

Wmfights...here’s Beck on Embassey Specks...I wonder just how long the Us will have control of “Fortress America” which they are calling it. Further you know any other countires setting up house there are going to try and out do this..Thus if and or when Babylon does become the site many are saying it’s going to be...I imagine it’ll be a gigantic business and stock market central sort of thing.

Already countries are not seeing NY City as the place to go...they are all looking to the East.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhdLiydzV70


14 posted on 01/04/2011 7:38:19 PM PST by caww
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
Thank you for your insights and welcome to FR.

IMO, Babylon is a metaphor for every belief outside of Christ.

I take a literal approach when reading those passages. I believe the actual city of Babylon will become a huge center of commerce and every evil that can be imagined. When this occurs I have no idea.

The testimony is almost gone and Babylon is rejoicing.Jesus must be coming soon!

It seems like it in the west, but the house churches are growing in China and throughout the 10/40 window. There is now a Christian radio station broadcasting in northern Iraq. Also, the level of violence against Christians is pretty bad throughout the 10/40 window, which I believe indicates the enemy is worried. So maybe Jesus isn't coming as soon as we think.

15 posted on 01/04/2011 7:39:18 PM PST by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism

Well than the whole world is basically Babylon from your perspective. But of course Babylon will be and indeed is a place. As for the Witnesses....They also are actual people, though it seems you enjoy spiritualising the events and places. I say caution in doing so...as even the cults are doing that.

No matter ones perspective the scripture Babylon will be industrious and wealthy beyond measure...sure makes sense to me a one world mega place of commerce could fit there nicely...and they sure have the means to pay for it.


16 posted on 01/04/2011 7:44:03 PM PST by caww
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To: caww
Great info, thanks.

What I find so interesting is the connection of the occult to Babylon dating back to Nimrod and the tower of Babel.

17 posted on 01/04/2011 7:46:50 PM PST by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: wmfights

Thank you for the welcome, i’ve enjoyed the site for years and thought it was time to start contributing to the conversation.
I truly believe the Bible is a spiritual book, revealing two realities, Jerusalem is spiritually all those in Christ who enjoy peace with the Father thru belief in His Son by the power of the Holy Spirit. Babylon on the other hand is spiritually all those outside of Christ who are enemies of the Father because they reject His Son. They attempt to build their own tower to God, rather than believing on the Son. I also believe Satan was bound when Jesus died on the cross and now here at the end times, he is being loosed a bit before the second coming of Christ. I respect your belief, but i don’t feel literal Babylon is going to reconstitute itself, we see Babylon all around us. Again, just one man’s opinion.


18 posted on 01/04/2011 7:50:28 PM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: caww

The witnesses could be actual people, but i think a careful reading of Revelation makes it more likely they are the Church. Remember, Jesus sent the disciples out in pairs.


19 posted on 01/04/2011 7:54:33 PM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
I truly believe the Bible is a spiritual book, revealing two realities, Jerusalem is spiritually all those in Christ who enjoy peace with the Father thru belief in His Son by the power of the Holy Spirit. Babylon on the other hand is spiritually all those outside of Christ who are enemies of the Father because they reject His Son. They attempt to build their own tower to God, rather than believing on the Son. I also believe Satan was bound when Jesus died on the cross and now here at the end times, he is being loosed a bit before the second coming of Christ. I respect your belief, but i don’t feel literal Babylon is going to reconstitute itself, we see Babylon all around us. Again, just one man’s opinion.

I would agree 100% with the above statement. God Bless

20 posted on 01/05/2011 5:38:43 AM PST by Vegasrugrat
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To: wmfights

I watched a video last night of a Military man in charge over Babylon who interestingly is also a layman historian so to speak and showed pictures and some very interesting comments concerning his time in Babylon.

Though he said there is some dispute....”Nimrod” seems to have been the first one to lay a brick in the building of Babylon. He explained how Babylon is built one city on top of the other and you can still see the walls 60 ft. down from those all the others have built ontop...including Saddams. Amazing how much of the ruins are still “pristine” as he said...and it was interesting seeing right where Daniel had walked and such.

The tour he gave was one of the most enjoyable speakers I’ve heard in this type of documentary as he was humble about what he knew...and mixed his talking points with what he had seen there from a Military position. Very interesting photos unlike those done and screened by professionals.

But Nimrod was a very evil type of guy. So many pagan and occult practices flourished then.


21 posted on 01/05/2011 6:44:01 AM PST by caww
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism

No...we’ll just have to disagree as especially after a careful reading of Revelations the two witnesses are indeed people who walk, talk and eventually are killed and lay in the streets...who then God raises up.


22 posted on 01/05/2011 6:47:56 AM PST by caww
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To: caww; one Lord one faith one baptism
No...we’ll just have to disagree as especially after a careful reading of Revelations the two witnesses are indeed people who walk, talk and eventually are killed and lay in the streets...who then God raises up.

FWIW, I'm with you.

I don't see how The Revelation of Jesus Christ can make any sense if it's all thought of as figurative. The Book opens up like never before when it's read literally and with the understanding it's about God bringing Israel home to Him.

23 posted on 01/05/2011 7:40:52 AM PST by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: wmfights; caww
BAbylon should not be confused with the place of the tower of Babel. What we call Babylon is a comparatively newer city in Mesopotamia.
The earliest source to mention Babylon may be a dated tablet of the reign of Sargon of Akkad (ca. 24th century BC short chronology). The so-called "Weidner Chronicle" states that it was Sargon himself who built Babylon "in front of Akkad" (ABC 19:51). Another chronicle likewise states that Sargon "dug up the dirt of the pit of Babylon, and made a counterpart of Babylon next to Agade". (ABC 20:18-19). More recently, some researchers have stated that those sources may refer to Sargon II of the Neo-Assyrian Empire rather than Sargon of Akkad
This indicates that it was an Akkadian city, not the older Sumerian. The tower of Babel should instead be associated with what was the city of Eridu. Eridu is older -- a Sumerian city from the 4th millenium BC, probably as old or older than Uruk
24 posted on 01/05/2011 10:44:07 AM PST by Cronos (Kto jestem? Nie wiem! Ale moj Bog wie!)
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To: Cronos

and your source for this information Cronos? I want to check further.


25 posted on 01/05/2011 9:29:03 PM PST by caww
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To: caww; wmfights
Of course.

1. To see why Babylon got confused with Eridu you can refer to http://oi.uchicago.edu/pdf/saoc62.pdf "http://oi.uchicago.edu/pdf/saoc62.pdf"
Another city whose name became interchangeable with BAbylon was Eridu. The lexical list Erinhus V 26 and the topographical list TIN.TIR I 21 show that Eridu was a name for Babylon proper. A version of the Sumerian King List gives Eridu as the first city ever to receive kingship from heaven, where the first king was Alulim. This man was called Aloros in the text attributed to Berossus, who wrote in the fourth century B.C. but Berossus named the city ruled by Aloros as Babylon, not Eridu. Eridu is the city in which Hammurabi king of BAbylon was crowned, and this may be a reason to date the phenomenon early in the Old Babylonian period

2. Now Eridu is an ANCIENT city, terribly old, much older than the city of Babylon. Now to understand this you must realise that the origins of Mesopotamia lie with the ancient Sumerians who formed their cities in 5000 BC or earlier. Eridu dates from 5400 BC.
According to the Sumerian Kinglist, Eridu was the first city in the world. The opening line of the Kinglist reads
"[nam]-lugal an-ta èd-dè-a-ba [eri]duki nam-lugal-la"
"When kingship from heaven was lowered, the kingship was in Eridu."
In Sumerian mythology, it was said to be one of the five cities built before the Deluge occurred. This was initially dedicated to the god of waters Enki in Sumerian(Ea in Akkadian -- see point 3 below) who had married the god of sky (can't remember the name) to form the earth.

it was the chief seaport of Sumer and Babylonia and was located on the Euphrates River near the city of Ur, siltation has since moved the coastline southward and the city's remains are now some distance inland, in modern Iraq. It was revered as the oldest city in Sumer, and its patron god was Enki ( Ea). Founded on sand dunes circa 5th millennium BC , its ruins show the sequence of the preliterate Ubaid civilization, with a long succession of superimposed temples portraying the development of an elaborate mud-brick architecture. It was occupied until circa 600 BC .

3. Anyway, the Sumerians were nicely chugging along for 3000 years until the Akkadians or Amorites came. These were Semitic peoples (the ancestors of Abraham). They were nomads and initially did not stay in the cities but traded. then, slowly they took over, culminating in the reign of Sargon of Akkad --> he may be the biblical Nimrod. Read up on him -- he was the first conqueror in 2200 BC ruling all of what is now Iraq and Syria -- huge territories in an age before the saddle or chariots. BUT the Amorites still retained the Sumerian religion -- and the Sumerian language regressed to being a religious language, but the Sumerian holy cities were respected as now Akkadian holy cities.

4. So the place where the king would be crowned in Babylonia would be the holy city Eridu, the ancient one.


As an aside, the Sumerian king list also has this fantastic line
Five cities; eight kings ruled for 385,200sic years. Then the Flood swept over.
Assyriology and Sumerian history is a bit of a side-hobby of mine and it is fascinating how this ties in to the Bible -- every word of the Bible even the ones dating back to 2000 BC (Abrahams) can factually, logically be proven true. And this was handed down by people orally and then on written texts for 1000s of years, yet are utterly true -- provably so. Ur of the Chaldeans (a later term for Sumerians) is almost as old as Eridu. It is 12 km away from Eridu. Ur or Uruk was the reason why we call Mesopotamia Irak now.
26 posted on 01/05/2011 10:20:24 PM PST by Cronos (Kto jestem? Nie wiem! Ale moj Bog wie!)
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To: caww; wmfights
From the Sumerian King-list

Adapa U-an, elsewhere called the first man, was a half-god, half-man culture hero, called by the title Abgallu ( ab =water, gal =big, lu =man) of Eridu. He was considered to have brought civilization to the city from Dilmun (probably Bahrain), and he served Alulim.

In Sumerian mythology, Eridu was the home of the Abzu temple of the god Enki, the Sumerian counterpart of the Akkadian water-god Ea. Like all the Sumerian and Babylonian gods, Enki/Ea began as a local god, who came to share, according to the later cosmology, with Anu and Enlil, the rule of the cosmos. His kingdom was the waters that surrounded the world and lay below it (Sumerian ab =water; zu =far).

The stories of Inanna, goddess of Uruk, describe how she had to go to Eridu in order to receive the gifts of civilisation. At first Enki, the god of Eridu attempted to retrieve these sources of his power, but later willingly accepted that Uruk now was the centre of the land. This seems to be a mythical reference to the transfer of power northward

Babylonian texts also talk of the creation of Eridu by the god Marduk as the first city, "the holy city, the dwelling of their [the other gods] delight".
27 posted on 01/05/2011 11:12:58 PM PST by Cronos (Kto jestem? Nie wiem! Ale moj Bog wie!)
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To: caww; wmfights
One recent school of thought, following David Rohl, has conjectured that Eridu, to the south of Ur, was the original Babel and site of the Tower of Babel, rather than the later city of Babylon, for a variety of reasons

  1. The ziggurat ruins of Eridu are far larger and older than any others, and seem to best match the Biblical description of the unfinished Tower of Babel.
  2. One name of Eridu in cuneiform logograms was pronounced "NUN.KI" ("the Mighty Place") in Sumerian, but much later the same "NUN.KI" was understood to mean the city of Babylon.
  3. The much later Greek version of the King-list by Berosus (c. 200 BC) reads "Babylon" in place of "Eridu" in the earlier versions, as the name of the oldest city where "the kingship was lowered from Heaven".

28 posted on 01/05/2011 11:15:33 PM PST by Cronos (Kto jestem? Nie wiem! Ale moj Bog wie!)
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To: wmfights; SunkenCiv

Thanks for the ping wmfights.

Hey SunkenCiv kinda a GGG ping. Thought you might like to check it out.


29 posted on 01/05/2011 11:26:02 PM PST by Captain Beyond (The Hammer of the gods! (Just a cool line from a Led Zep song))
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To: caww; wmfights
Even this bit about Babylon being the beginnings of occult is specuous.

Firstly, as proven above, Babylon is a younger city, Akkadian, not Sumerian

Secondly, the argument given that they were primarily interested in astroLOGY rather than astroNOMY is incorrect -- the Sumerians gave us a studied description of the night-sky. THEY were the ones who first divided the year into 360 days + 5. They were then the ones who invented geometry (hence 360 degrees in a circle). They were the ones who did this to enable them to plant crops.

Remember that agriculture mostly started in Sumeria and agriculte depends on you knowing the seasons exactly

They invented astronomy to predict this, they invented irrigation (dams, canals) to water their crops.

3. Astrology -- you have 3 main kinds: Western, Chinese and Indian and no they are not related. THe Hindu astrology has two non-existent planets Raghu and Ketu which are not there in Western or Chinese astrology for instance. There is NO indication of astrology in Sumeria at all. The first instances of astrology in Mesopotamia are in the 2nd millenium BC, yes in Babylon. And yet if you read their astrology and compare it with modern Western astrology you'll find they are quite different. Western astrology is derived from Greek Hermesism (Hermes Trismegistus.) which are not related to the Babylonian. He was the first to outline the houses and their meaning, and thus the houses are usually thought to date back to the very beginning of the Hellenistic tradition and indeed they are one of the major defining factors which separate Hellenistic astrology and other forms of horoscopic astrology from Babylonian astrology and other traditions in different parts of the world. This system of horoscopic astrology was then passed to another mythical figure named Asclepius to who some of the Hermetic writings are addressed.
30 posted on 01/05/2011 11:30:46 PM PST by Cronos (Kto jestem? Nie wiem! Ale moj Bog wie!)
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To: Cronos

... and then you have the twelve tribes each being cognate with their respective zodiacal “sign,” Leo for Judah, etcetera.

The Bible has clear reference to that which many presume to be utterly condemned by the very same Bible, and yet from Genesis onward, it’s clear that stars were intended to convey information. There are even overt references, from the OT right through to Revelation.

I’d suggest that the word “astrology” represents the loss of a critical shade of meaning in translation. In antiquity, astronomy and astrology were not divorced from one another as in modernity. The condemnation thus has to pertain to intent and what is done with any knowledge ascertained in this manner.

Or, that’s my thinking upon the matter. It’s a controversial topic. But, any serious student of the Bible, prophecy in particular, will come to recognize the use of apparent astrological symbolism, and so it’s a conflict that should be resolved in order to further prophetic understanding for the benefit of all His believers.


31 posted on 01/05/2011 11:46:56 PM PST by RegulatorCountry
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To: RegulatorCountry; wmfights; caww
hmm... well, I've never heard of any linkages between the twelve tribes and the zodiac signs (that doesn't mean it's not true, just that I've not heard of it) -- do you have more information? Like Sagitarrius or the twins or others -- which tribes do they link to?

You're right about stars being used to reveal information -- like the Star of Bethlehelm. But which others?

In antiquity, astronomy and astrology were not divorced from one another as in modernity. 100% accurate -- Neil Postman says the same in one of his books.
32 posted on 01/06/2011 12:03:00 AM PST by Cronos (Kto jestem? Nie wiem! Ale moj Bog wie!)
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To: Cronos

There are numerous sites that can tell you more about this, but it’s very late on the east coast, so I’ll just toss out a few terms that will help with any search. The Hebrew zodiac is known as the Mazzaroth.

Above and beyond the twelve tribes, there is linkage as well with the twelve single letters of the Hebrew alphabet. Twelve is a highly significant number.

There is a lot of peculiarity swirling about this topic, so be wary of information you encounter and pay attention to motivation of the source.

Beyond that, I’ve got to get to bed, I’ve got to be up and about in three hours, lol.

Good night.


33 posted on 01/06/2011 12:11:25 AM PST by RegulatorCountry
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To: RegulatorCountry

ouch — good night. Will talk next time. it’s 9 am for me here and we have a holiday! Feast of the three kings!


34 posted on 01/06/2011 12:20:04 AM PST by Cronos (Kto jestem? Nie wiem! Ale moj Bog wie!)
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To: RegulatorCountry; Cronos
"There is a lot of peculiarity swirling about this topic, so be wary of information you encounter and pay attention to motivation of the source."

Sound advice.

I've read that the twelve zodiac signs actually tell the story of Christ.ie: If Virgo is used as the starting point and Leo as the ending.,The main star in Virgo (the virgin)is called "Spica" which means seed.Seed of the virgin...through the twelve consellations arriving at Leo (the Lion).

That's obviously a very sparse outline but a story which starts with the seed of a virgin and progresses through to a lion does tend to make your spititual ears prick up.From what I've read over the years the whole thing is very detailed and well worth a discerning read.Just google "gospel in the stars" and you should find plenty.

It's no small wonder the enemy would seek to cloud the original message with the worship of the hosts themselves rather than the message they are conveying.

I've always admired the night sky but this sure added to my appreciation of it!

God bless you.

35 posted on 01/06/2011 3:48:01 AM PST by mitch5501 (fine!)
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To: Captain Beyond

Uh, no.


36 posted on 01/06/2011 7:32:52 PM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: Captain Beyond

(whoops, blush) but thanks Captain Beyond.


37 posted on 01/06/2011 7:47:01 PM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: mitch5501; RegulatorCountry

sound advice — most of the google sites reveal loony fringe or new-age websites.


38 posted on 01/07/2011 12:51:03 AM PST by Cronos (Kto jestem? Nie wiem! Ale moj Bog wie!)
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To: SunkenCiv; Captain Beyond; caww; RegulatorCountry; wmfights; blam
Maybe not a GGG, but this got me thinking. The population of the world around 1 AD was 200 million folks. The population when the Sumerian cities were founded (5000 BC) must have been 2 million or less.

I'm taking a rule of thumb that population before the industrial revolution was 1 billion from 200 million in 1 AD, due to more land being brought under cultivation. So 2000 BC population = 40mill, 4000 BC = 8 mil, and 5000BC = 4mil, but then agriculture only spread in 4000-2000 BC, and hunter-gatherer societies can support far fewer people, so the population of the world could have been as low as 1 million.

Anyway, can you imagine life in those days when setting up the cities of Sumeria? They were the only civilisation around! Europe was a big forest with next to no people (any peoples would have not been Indo-European definitely!), Rome, Greece were non-existent.

The pyramids and Stonehenge wouldn't be built for another 3000 years, Christ wouldn't be born for another 5000 years, Abraham wouldn't be born for another 3000 years.

These people were living in an empty world - they would have traded at the most with the Harappan civilisation (which I believe is linked to the Sumerian) and Elamites through Dilmun (Bahrain).

these people would have looked out on the oceans and the sand seas and wondered if there were any voices out there, just as we look into space.

What a people the Sag-gig-ga were!
39 posted on 01/07/2011 1:01:56 AM PST by Cronos (Kto jestem? Nie wiem! Ale moj Bog wie!)
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To: Cronos
"Anyway, can you imagine life in those days when setting up the cities of Sumeria? They were the only civilisation around! Europe was a big forest with next to no people (any peoples would have not been Indo-European definitely!), Rome, Greece were non-existent.

My grandmother is related to 9,000 year old Cheddar Man(U5a)

My yDNA (R1b) has been in Europe at least 25k...possibly 45k years.
R1b is presently the largest European yDNA haplogroup. 'H' is the female equilivent.(mtDNA)

40 posted on 01/07/2011 3:58:06 AM PST by blam
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To: blam

But then they wouldn’t have been Indo-Europeans (Aryans) — and that R1b is most common in Western Europe, not Eastern Europe which has the haplogroup R1a more in common (just like Indians and Iranis). But that is an interesting point. Perhaps western Europeans have partial non-ARyanic descent?


41 posted on 01/07/2011 8:33:50 AM PST by Cronos (Kto jestem? Nie wiem! Ale moj Bog wie!)
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To: Cronos
Journey Of Mankind
42 posted on 01/07/2011 9:30:26 AM PST by blam
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To: blam; caww

thanks blam. caww, this is blam, the master of pre-history, he has links to far better sources than I can provide. The link to Sundaland is also particularly fascinating


43 posted on 01/07/2011 9:54:11 AM PST by Cronos (Kto jestem? Nie wiem! Ale moj Bog wie!)
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To: blam; caww; SunkenCiv

Blam — I just opened that link you sent. It’s bloody amazing!! Wow! Thank you!


44 posted on 01/07/2011 9:56:48 AM PST by Cronos (Kto jestem? Nie wiem! Ale moj Bog wie!)
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To: Cronos

Sundaland (GGG)

45 posted on 01/07/2011 10:31:18 AM PST by blam
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To: Cronos

Around 1 AD the population of the world may have been 200 million — but if so, a staggering one third *or more* lived in the Roman Empire. My guess is, population estimates for the past are probably too low; also, the family size went up in the (mostly riverine) agricultural civilizations, and infant mortality went down. Both were also terribly high compared to now.


46 posted on 01/07/2011 4:18:43 PM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: SunkenCiv; caww; wmfights; blam

And yet that could be probable that 1/3rd or more lived in the roman Empire. The Roman Empire at that time covered two of the 5 big culture agglomerations (the others being the ganges valley of india, china’s Han civilisation and the Mayas) and wasn’t hit by internecine wars as in China.


47 posted on 01/07/2011 11:02:37 PM PST by Cronos (Kto jestem? Nie wiem! Ale moj Bog wie!)
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