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Mormons split over polygamy practice, expert says at trial
The Vancouver Sun ^ | 5 Jan 2011 | Daphne Bramham

Posted on 01/06/2011 10:02:12 AM PST by Alex Murphy

Even though the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints officially renounced polygamy in 1890, a religious studies expert says that mainstream Mormons are nearly evenly split over whether it should continue to be practised. W. John Walsh said Wednesday in B.C. Supreme Court that the LDS church's official position remains that polygamy is banned, but that it's possible that somewhere between 50 and 60 per cent of the church's members "would like a return of polygamy, which they see as a holy practice."

The other half would not like to see a return of polygamy and deem it to be "an archaic practise," said Walsh, who was testifying as an expert on behalf of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in a constitutional reference case that will determine the validity of Canada's law prohibiting polygamy. (The FLDS split from the mainstream church over the practise of polygamy and the FLDS is the largest group of so-called "fundamentalist Mormons" in North America. Walsh estimated that there are 50,000 fundamentalist Mormons in North America, 10,000 of whom belong to the FLDS.)

If Walsh is right, that suggests that if Canada's law is struck down, it could cause a major schism in the LDS church and would likely mean a large contingent of disaffected Mormons wanting to immigrate to Canada.

[SNIP]

“There is no doubt in my mind that your attitude toward plural marriage will determine your place in eternity.” Those who choose 'plural' or 'celestial' marriage have a chance at the highest realm of heaven – the celestial kingdom – while those who don't may find themselves alone for all eternity.

[SNIP]

“If men were eternally limited to only one wife each, some women would never have the opportunity for exaltation."

(Excerpt) Read more at communities.canada.com ...


TOPICS: Apologetics; Moral Issues; Other non-Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: flds; inman; lds; polygamy
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Even though the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints officially renounced polygamy in 1890, a religious studies expert says that mainstream Mormons are nearly evenly split over whether it should continue to be practised. W. John Walsh said Wednesday in B.C. Supreme Court that the LDS church's official position remains that polygamy is banned, but that it's possible that somewhere between 50 and 60 per cent of the church's members "would like a return of polygamy, which they see as a holy practice"....that suggests that if Canada's law is struck down, it could cause a major schism in the LDS church and would likely mean a large contingent of disaffected Mormons wanting to immigrate to Canada.

It should be noted that W. John Walsh was testifying as an expert on behalf of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

1 posted on 01/06/2011 10:02:17 AM PST by Alex Murphy
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To: greyfoxx39; Elsie; Godzilla

*ping*


2 posted on 01/06/2011 10:05:56 AM PST by hennie pennie
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To: colorcountry; Pan_Yans Wife; MHGinTN; Colofornian; Elsie; FastCoyote; Osage Orange; svcw; Enosh; ...
Polygamy ping.

Thanks for the ping, hennie pennie

3 posted on 01/06/2011 10:10:28 AM PST by greyfoxx39 (("A Leftist assumption: Making money doesn't entitle you to it, but wanting money does.")
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To: All

IB4PD1


4 posted on 01/06/2011 10:11:29 AM PST by Alex Murphy ("Posting news feeds, making eyes bleed, he's hated on seven continents")
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To: Alex Murphy

The fact remains that the sexually perverted founder of the Morman church,one Joseph Smith,did practice polygamy along with other sins. It is his legacy,and without that there would be no discussion on the matter. Nor would there be cases like that of Elizabeth Smart.Her dilemma,and others like it can all be directly traced back to the perversions of “the prophet”.


5 posted on 01/06/2011 10:17:14 AM PST by rickomatic
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To: Alex Murphy

I bet they’re evenly split! The men are all for it and the women — not so much.


6 posted on 01/06/2011 10:22:25 AM PST by La Lydia
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To: Alex Murphy
I asked brother-in-law (who is a main stream ex-Bishop missionary Mormon in Salt Lake valley) why he doesn't have another wife. He told me it's because the government doesn't allow it.

I was raised in and around Salt Lake. You run into a lot of them. In fact some of my ancestors were polygamous.

Some Mormons know that this is a basic tenant from the Doctrine and Covenants. The practice of polygamy is a commandment. While the words of Wisdom are just suggestions.

7 posted on 01/06/2011 10:23:14 AM PST by cruise_missile
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To: cruise_missile

I just can’t see how it’s reconciled with the Bible.


8 posted on 01/06/2011 10:25:13 AM PST by brytlea
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To: Alex Murphy
Returns January 16th for its final season!

9 posted on 01/06/2011 10:36:57 AM PST by TSgt (Colonel Allen West & Michele Bachman - 2012 POTUS Dream Team Ticket!)
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To: brytlea

They will say its biblical. So why not for them?

Their own religion contradicts itself. So it doesn’t matter if it contradicts the Bible.


10 posted on 01/06/2011 10:38:26 AM PST by cruise_missile
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To: Alex Murphy

I tend to disbelieve this “experts” statement on the number of Mormons desiring a return to polygamy. Polygamy works in a farm economy it does not work in a dying “service” economy. Most people are pretty practical and in the long run would control their lust.


11 posted on 01/06/2011 10:39:22 AM PST by AEMILIUS PAULUS (It is a shame that when these people give a riot)
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To: hennie pennie

well, get some popcorn hennie LOL.


12 posted on 01/06/2011 10:40:56 AM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Alex Murphy

Polygamy remains a doctrine of Mormonism..it is only suspended

I believe the day gay marriage is approved, the next move will be polygamy


13 posted on 01/06/2011 10:47:47 AM PST by RnMomof7 (Gal 4:16 asks "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?")
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To: TSgt

Bill Paxton is a great actor. And he’s from Texas.

“Dam*! it’s hot down here”.... “YA, but its a DRY heat!”


14 posted on 01/06/2011 10:49:38 AM PST by NeverForgetBataan (To the German Commander: ..........................NUTS !)
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To: rickomatic

You do realize that polygamy is all throughout the Bible.

Furthermore, in the OT the men slept with their wives, their servants, and women captured at war, and even prostitutes.

To say that JS is a pervert is like saying that all the patriarches were perverts.


15 posted on 01/06/2011 10:51:42 AM PST by 240B (he is doing everything he said he wouldn't and not doing what he said he would)
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To: AEMILIUS PAULUS
I tend to disbelieve this “experts” statement on the number of Mormons desiring a return to polygamy.

It's not a question of desire, it's (according to Mormons) a commandment. The Big Guy Himself has multiple wives - that's where your and my souls came from. Jesus may have been married, too - if not already, then someday in the future.

16 posted on 01/06/2011 10:54:46 AM PST by Alex Murphy ("Posting news feeds, making eyes bleed, he's hated on seven continents")
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Comment #17 Removed by Moderator

To: RnMomof7
I believe the day gay marriage is approved, the next move will be polygamy

And then to animals, plants, youngsters, inanimate objects, etc.

Folks laugh when I say that however the embracing of open homosexuality was also unthinkable not too many years ago.

One snip at a time, cutting away at the moral fabric of America.
18 posted on 01/06/2011 10:59:07 AM PST by TSgt (Colonel Allen West & Michele Bachman - 2012 POTUS Dream Team Ticket!)
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To: teppe

Teppe,

Let me introduce you to Delphi User. ;)


19 posted on 01/06/2011 11:01:10 AM PST by colorcountry (Comforting lies are not your friends. Painful truths are not your enemies.)
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To: teppe
As my several thousand LDS relatives have stated at various times, one is more than enough.
20 posted on 01/06/2011 11:03:34 AM PST by Little Bill (Harry Browne is a Poofter.)
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To: 240B
You do realize that polygamy is all throughout the Bible. Furthermore, in the OT the men slept with their wives, their servants, and women captured at war, and even prostitutes. To say that JS is a pervert is like saying that all the patriarches were perverts.

By your response I would suppose that you approve not only of polygamy, but also stealing other men's wives, and having sexual relations with minors. Because that is precisely what Joseph Smith did. Either own it, or condemn it. There is no middle ground.
21 posted on 01/06/2011 11:03:49 AM PST by rickomatic
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To: teppe; greyfoxx39
I am a life time member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints .... I am 50 years old ..... I have attended church nearly every sunday .... I Have lived in 9 different States and three different Countries ....

and to date ..... I have NEVER heard a single member express a desire for the return to the Abrahamic Patriarchal Order (polygamy).

You may have never heard it - but you didn't say anything about not desiring it for yourself, either.

22 posted on 01/06/2011 11:04:25 AM PST by Alex Murphy ("Posting news feeds, making eyes bleed, he's hated on seven continents")
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To: Alex Murphy

Well, since they’ll (Mormon men) be eternally in the process of becoming gods, having multiple wives in eternity, engaging in sex, keeping those wives perpetually pregnant, then logically, why not multiple wives now and get a head start on godhood and lotsa kids? - From a woman’s point of view, the idea of being barefoot and pregnant for all eternity would tend to make me, from a mortal perspective, TIRED. I suppose I’d have to cook and clean, too. - I know. It’s a “man thing”. :o)


23 posted on 01/06/2011 11:05:42 AM PST by Twinkie (Awake and strengthen that which remains . . . . . . . . Revelation 3)
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To: teppe
I know that you Anti-Mormon Religous Biggots will stop at no lie .... no distortion .....no insult ..... and no decency to demean the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (similar to the early trashing of the Church of Jesus Christ) ..... .... but .... I am a life time member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints .... I am 50 years old ..... I have attended church nearly every sunday .... I Have lived in 9 different States and three different Countries .... and to date ..... I have NEVER heard a single member express a desire for the return to the Abrahamic Patriarchal Order (polygamy). Never ..... go ahead ... let the Biggot Denials and gnashing of teeth begin!

No gnashing of teeth needed. One only has to have the intellectual integrity to look to the recorded history, both inside and outside the LDS church to see that the things I stated about Joseph Smith are true. As I stated to another, either own it or condemn it. Are you willing to bet your eternal soul to the teachings and actions of Joseph Smith?
24 posted on 01/06/2011 11:08:09 AM PST by rickomatic
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To: Twinkie

I’m answering my post. Just had a flash. Polygamy sounds to me like it pretty much adheres to the “Napoliatane” doctrine that’s mentioned in Revelation. That doctrine was denounced when Christ addressed the various churches in Asia.


25 posted on 01/06/2011 11:11:30 AM PST by Twinkie (Awake and strengthen that which remains . . . . . . . . Revelation 3)
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To: teppe
Photobucket
26 posted on 01/06/2011 11:11:49 AM PST by greyfoxx39 (("A Leftist assumption: Making money doesn't entitle you to it, but wanting money does.")
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To: Alex Murphy
the LDS church's official position remains that polygamy is banned, but that it's possible that somewhere between 50 and 60 per cent of the church's members "would like a return of polygamy, which they see as a holy practice."

And it's possible that Mr. Walsh harbors secret sexual fantasies about small children, but my not knowing him nor being a mind reader makes my speculation about what his thinking is just as absurd as his claim to know what 50-60% of Mormons think, esp. since that would include an awful lot of Mormon women who most assuredly would not want its return and then to get to those numbers would mean most me do. What precisely does he base this guesstimate on? Saying "It's possible" shows the statement to be baseless speculation. As an active member of the Church I NEVER hear ANYONE speaking in favor of polygamy nor wanting it to return, so this person is making an absurd claim with no backing other than his biases. Polygamy is not seen as a sacred practice in a time it has not been commanded, so that statement is just silly. Indeed, the practice of it without command of the Lord would result in excommunication.

27 posted on 01/06/2011 11:14:29 AM PST by MissesBush
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To: teppe
You should see the high priests fight behind closed doors to "Home Teach" the pretty Single ladies.

Besides, we come up against the same conclusions with your opinion. It is an opinion, not doctrine. D&C 132 IS STILL PRINTED IN THE D&C, and ETERNAL POLYGAMY IS STILL TAUGHT, AND YOU KNOW IT.

Believing LDS women go through life worrying their husbands will choose someone else as first wife after the resurrection.

28 posted on 01/06/2011 11:14:39 AM PST by SENTINEL (Mormonism...from Ezra Taft Benson to Reid and Romney in only one generation.)
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To: Twinkie
From a woman’s point of view, the idea of being barefoot and pregnant for all eternity would tend to make me, from a mortal perspective, TIRED. I suppose I’d have to cook and clean, too.

Personally, I think you paint a too-rosy picture of the life of a typical Mormon exalted goddess....
Brood Queen

29 posted on 01/06/2011 11:18:18 AM PST by Alex Murphy ("Posting news feeds, making eyes bleed, he's hated on seven continents")
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To: teppe

I’m glad to hear that.


30 posted on 01/06/2011 11:19:12 AM PST by brytlea
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To: AEMILIUS PAULUS
Polygamy works in a farm economy it does not work in a dying “service” economy. Most people are pretty practical and in the long run would control their lust.

BZZZTTT! Wrong.

Present-day plygs do quite well in "farming" the social services like welfare, ADC, etc. Along with sending some of the wives out to get a paying job.

31 posted on 01/06/2011 11:19:31 AM PST by greyfoxx39 (("A Leftist assumption: Making money doesn't entitle you to it, but wanting money does.")
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To: Alex Murphy

According to Mormon theology God is polygamous. They won’t tell you the exact number. It has to be a lot because these celestial women populated this world(More than the 72 virgins the Muslims promise).

Polygamy is the “higher order”. All Mormons eventually want to live in the higher order (Celestial Kingdom). You would be surprised how many Mormons don’t know their Mormon theology.

Growing up in Salt Lake I knew dozens of Mormon missionaries that told me that they didn’t know what a personal relationship with Jesus was.

But it is a very dynamic religion. Even the history keeps on changing. ;-)


32 posted on 01/06/2011 11:20:20 AM PST by cruise_missile
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To: rickomatic

I respectfully disagree.

I only said that it is not something JS invented and has biblical justification. That list of perverse you listed is not biblical, in fact, just the opposite. Many of them were punished by death.

There are cases were polygamy is very humane. In the case of widows with children(who may or may not be ill), unmarried women who cannot find a suitable man(who may or may not be ill), a homeless woman in need of care...etc

Polygamy is not always about sex. There many other potential issues which are quite rational. In some cases, if whole family agrees, it is just the right thing to do.


33 posted on 01/06/2011 11:21:24 AM PST by 240B (he is doing everything he said he wouldn't and not doing what he said he would)
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To: teppe
Good luck. The bigots always claim to know what Mormons believe better than we Mormons. Like you, I've been a long time active member of the church and never heard anyone speak of wanting a return to polygamy. Indeed, most I hear dread the thought saying being married to one woman is hard enough work.

One has to wonder why the bashers can't just practice their own religion and leave others to do the same. Why the need to tear down? Why the need to misrepresent and latch onto every absurd claim about Mormons they come across with no critical thought nor analytical view of the claims? An obvious fool makes a statement that "it's possible" 50-60% of Mormons want something with no basis for his claim, and these people just pick it up and run with it. This is a Michael Moore-level of thinking and believing about people, practices and opinions about which you are opposed and have no real understanding of.

If some Democrat came along and said with some faux authority that "It's possible 50-60% of Republicans are racist" or "It's possible George W. Bush had a role in planning 9-11," these gullible people on here would cry foul--as well they should. But if a Mormon hater uses such sloppy thinking and such faux academic analysis, they lap it up like mindless puppies. The hypocrisy is stunning.

34 posted on 01/06/2011 11:24:25 AM PST by MissesBush
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To: TSgt
"Folks laugh when I say that however the embracing of open homosexuality was also unthinkable not too many years ago."

It is amazing how quickly a culture's values can be undermined. During the 1992 campaign when it was revealed that Clinton had smoked pot and dodged the draft, I and many others thought there is no way he'd ever be elected based on those reasons alone.

How far and how rapidly the bar has been lowered.

35 posted on 01/06/2011 11:25:13 AM PST by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: MissesBush
Polygamy is not seen as a sacred practice in a time it has not been commanded, so that statement is just silly.

Do you defend Joseph Smith's "sacred practice" of polygamy, including the stealing of other men's wives, and sexual relations with minors? Defend it, or condemn it. No double talk.
36 posted on 01/06/2011 11:28:23 AM PST by rickomatic
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To: teppe
and to date ..... I have NEVER heard a single member express a desire for the return to the Abrahamic Patriarchal Order (polygamy).

And risk having to talk with the bishop and possible excomm?

37 posted on 01/06/2011 11:29:41 AM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: SENTINEL
Believing LDS women go through life worrying their husbands will choose someone else as first wife after the resurrection.

All your comments are nonsense, starting with the claim High Priests "fight" to Home Teach single women. High priests are assigned single women because with the vast age difference (high priests are nearly always men over 50) you greatly decrease the likelyhood of a romantic interest developing between either party. And in any event, you home teach in pairs, not by yourself, so it's hardly some opportunity to hit on women as you absurdly imply. And all members are entitled to home teachers so someone needs to do it. It makes sense it should be more established older men.

As for the above comment from your post, no LDS woman thinks like that because it's not even doctrinal. Your "First wife" is the first woman you're sealed to. Again, just like this John Walsh you're a non-Mormon claiming to know what Mormons think--and getting it laughably wrong.

38 posted on 01/06/2011 11:29:41 AM PST by MissesBush
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To: teppe
First question:
If Abraham did what God wanted. Taking Haggar as a wife. Why didn't Ishmael get the birth right?

Second question:
1 Corinthians 7
8 Now to the unmarried[a] and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do.

How do you reconcile that?

39 posted on 01/06/2011 11:30:04 AM PST by cruise_missile
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To: Joe 6-pack
Indeed.

40 posted on 01/06/2011 11:30:43 AM PST by TSgt (Colonel Allen West & Michele Bachman - 2012 POTUS Dream Team Ticket!)
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To: Godzilla

LOL, again you are a non-Mormon assuming you know how the Mormon church works. One would be excommunicated FOR practicing polygamy, not for speaking against its practice and thus adhering to the church’s position on it. A bishop would only be concerned if an interest in polygamy were expressed, not the opposite. Sheesh, why don’t you people attend a Mormon congregation before pretending you know what goes on there. Trust me...you’re all making fools of yourselves and don’t even know it.


41 posted on 01/06/2011 11:31:47 AM PST by MissesBush
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To: MissesBush

Like Brigham Young who was pushing 70 when he married a 17 year old?


42 posted on 01/06/2011 11:32:22 AM PST by cruise_missile
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To: 240B
You do realize that polygamy is all throughout the Bible. Furthermore, in the OT the men slept with their wives, their servants, and women captured at war, and even prostitutes. To say that JS is a pervert is like saying that all the patriarches were perverts.

Polygamy is not God's original plan for marriage. The best argument one could make is that God allowed polygamy, like he allowed divorce, but it is not His desire for us. There is nothing in the Bible that states that polygamy is a commandment.

However, even if you are allowed to do something, should you? What kind of evil man would want to cause his wife heartbreak and jealousy by taking another woman. Who would even think of forcing his own beloved daughter to marry a man she doesn't love. Who would kick out his teenage sons because they compete with the elders for scarce wives.

Brigham Young took so many new young brides that there was a saying in Utah: "Lovely girls mostly marry Young".

Polygamy is a "Commandment" because women wouldn't allow it otherwise.

43 posted on 01/06/2011 11:35:08 AM PST by sportutegrl
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To: rickomatic

When Joseph Smith was prophet, polygamy was commanded as it was when Abraham and others in the Bible practiced it so he was justified. And he stole no one’s wife. That is a lie. In fact at one point he told one man, I believe it was Heber C. Kimball, that he had been commanded to marry his wife to test his faith. When Kimball indicated he would obey that, Smith told him it was only a test of his faith and the Lord had not so commanded. So yes, at the time it was commanded it was holy practice. It no longer is.

Now that said—practice YOUR religion. Stop attacking the faith of others. If your own beliefs don’t allow you to practice your faith in an affirmative way, then I suggest you look into some other religion that does.


44 posted on 01/06/2011 11:36:04 AM PST by MissesBush
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To: teppe; greyfoxx39; colorcountry; Colofornian; Elsie; Godzilla; MHGinTN; narses; reaganaut; ...

I know that you Anti-Mormon Religous Biggots will stop at no lie .... no distortion .....no insult ..... and no decency to demean the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (similar to the early trashing of the Church of Jesus Christ) ..... .... but ....

I am a life time member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints .... I am 50 years old ..... I have attended church nearly every sunday .... I Have lived in 9 different States and three different Countries ....

and to date ..... I have NEVER heard a single member express a desire for the return to the Abrahamic Patriarchal Order (polygamy).


Your response raises the following questions:


45 posted on 01/06/2011 11:36:19 AM PST by Zakeet (Always trust in the five G's: God, Gold, Guns, Grub, and the Government screwing up)
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To: MissesBush
A bishop would only be concerned if an interest in polygamy were expressed, not the opposite.

Which is what I said, prior to your mormonic hyperkneejerking stepped in.

Sheesh, why don’t you people attend a Mormon congregation before pretending you know what goes on there.

Judging from the mormons encountered here, I would probably find even more there who didn't have a clue as to what they believed - but only mindlessly follow what ever the prophet sez.

But then 'God' must have been joking when s/he said it was an 'eternal' principle eh?

46 posted on 01/06/2011 11:36:54 AM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: 240B
To say that JS is a pervert is like saying that all the patriarches were perverts.

THAT kind of post is gar-own-TEED to win you lots of FRiends here.

47 posted on 01/06/2011 11:39:16 AM PST by greyfoxx39 (("A Leftist assumption: Making money doesn't entitle you to it, but wanting money does.")
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To: Joe 6-pack
During the 1992 campaign when it was revealed that Clinton had smoked pot and dodged the draft, I and many others thought there is no way he'd ever be elected based on those reasons alone.

I had the same reaction, when Clinton said in his 1992 DNC acceptance speech that he was "fed up with politicians in Washington lecturing the rest of us about 'family values'."

48 posted on 01/06/2011 11:39:58 AM PST by Alex Murphy ("Posting news feeds, making eyes bleed, he's hated on seven continents")
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To: MissesBush; teppe
How many times do you people have toi be told. Either HEED and ACCEPT the words of Chirst himself, or QUIT CLAIMING TO BE CHRISTIANS ! You cannot have it both ways.

Matthew(KJV) 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

Luke 20:34-35
34: And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage
35:But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

And don't give me any "Mistranslated" garbage about these portions of the Bible, this is Matthew 22 from the JOSEPH SMITH TRANSLATION !!

Matt 22:28-29
28 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God.
29 For in the resurrection, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angel of God in heaven.

49 posted on 01/06/2011 11:42:34 AM PST by SENTINEL (Mormonism...from Ezra Taft Benson to Reid and Romney in only one generation.)
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To: teppe
Six "I's" and you misspelled bigot.........

It's always interesting to see mormon's reference "the Church" and themselves so much.

Hardly a mention of your love,devotion,commitment,contract, covenant... with/to Jesus..

Such hostility.....teppe, why?

50 posted on 01/06/2011 11:44:21 AM PST by Osage Orange (MOLON LABE)
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