Posted on 01/07/2011 8:05:05 AM PST by topcat54
And who would that be? Aren't these all just synonyms for God's old covenant people?
And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end. (Luke 1:33)Jacob is contrasted with Esau (Rom. 9:13).
Jacob is a synonym for Israel (Gen. 32:28; Micah 1:5).
I'm not sure I understand what distinction you are trying to make.
These Jews will be those who become the fulfillment of Zech. 12, those who will finally recognize their Messiah, mourn over Him and be saved.
Zech. 12 was fulfilled according the the apostle John (John 19:37).
We did not "replace" Israel. We are part of Israel. This was the teaching of the church for over 1900 years. It is not Reformed teaching.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
You've phrased that wrong. ONLY Noah found 'grace' in the eyes of the Lord. Grace is unmerited favor from God. The rest (except those of Noah's family) did not find God's grace. God comes to us.
If you understand this, you understand predestination.
Mat 3:9 And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham.
What does the literal word predestinated mean? Foreordained. Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I (fore) ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Ephesians 1:4 and Romans 8:29 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.
We are told in Genesis 6:9 the 'cause' and even the purpose of why Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
THESE are THE GENERATIONS OF NOAH: Noah was a *just* (justified) man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
Noah and his family had not participated in the activity recorded in Genesis 6:2 which had come to as described in Genesis 6:11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
13 And God said unto Noah, "The end of all flesh is come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
Just a side note, Christ said as one of the signs to be watching for as sign of His return was this earth would be reenacting these days of Noe (Noah), and we have not yet reached that point.
It is obvious that Paul fits the 'profile' of one predestined. There can be no other explanation as to why and how he would be elected/chosen to write the majority of the New Testament when in example Paul Acts 9:4 "Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou Me?"
5 And he said, "Who art Thou, Lord?" And the Lord said, "I am Jesus Whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks."
verse 15 But the Lord said unto him, (Ananias) "Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto Me, to bear My name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for My name's sake."
Paul even gets more in detail in explaining what predestinated means in Romans 11:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, NOT of works, but of Him That calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, "The elder shall serve the younger."
13 As it is written, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated,"
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For He saith to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."
Interesting that this nation had a 'compassionate' conservative president wherein he sought to implement his own brand of 'compassion' where he thought it need be?
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God That sheweth mercy.
17 For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, "Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew My power in thee, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth."
Paul flat out made the writing of Moses one and the same as the 'NEW TESTAMENT', which even by this thread some completely ignore. God made that everlasting covenant with Abraham and some for whatever reason/purpose just cannot get over that it, that covenant has been kept, still being kept, and runs parallel with the purpose of God that the Gentile is offered the 'same' access to salvation as ALL those of Israel.
Please tell me you didn’t just use that verse to support Covenant Theology.
“Zech. 12 was fulfilled according the the apostle John (John 19:37).”
John 19:37 was a partial fulfillment of that prophecy. Zechariah 12 & 13 speaks of the whole nation of Israel mourning over Christ. It speaks of God cleansing the nation from sin & removing their idols:
“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, and all the rest of the clans and their wives.
Continuing on into chapter 13:
1 “On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity.
2 “On that day, I will banish the names of the idols from the land, and they will be remembered no more,” declares the LORD Almighty. “I will remove both the prophets and the spirit of impurity from the land.
The whole nation did not mourn and repent at Jesus’ crucifixion. The idols, the prophets, the spirit of impurity were not removed from the land at that time.
However, it will be completely fulfilled when Jesus returns per Revelations 1:7:
“Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.”
and then ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED! HALLELUJAH!!
No, but the Lord points out that He is capable of making us sons of Abraham. Would you disagree?
I wouldn’t classify myself as a “Covenant” theologian. However, it is totally misguided of Christians to think that we do not belong to the race of the spiritual Israel. Paul takes great pains to tell us we have been grafted in with the Jews. And, as is evidence in many parts of scripture, there are people who are of Jewish descent that have nothing to do with Israel.
Here’s a good article about this written from a Messianic Jew’s perspective:
http://www.seedofabraham.net/spiritjw.html
This article makes some very valid points if you look at a Jew as being a physical descendant of Abraham. However, I would question the point of this argument. If all that matters is that you are a son of God, adopted into God's people, then what precisely is the big deal of being “Jew” or “Gentile”? It makes no difference because all walk by faith.
Paul does make a point that the Jews have historically been keepers of the scriptures and the Holy message up until the time of Christ. This is not to be overlooked or to be taken lightly. God made a particular point to Aaron and Mirian when they thought they were equal with Moses by striking Mirian with leprosy. Same way with the Koranites who during their rebellion thought they should be allowed to do the high priest duties. The Jews were blessed because they were appointed this task just as Mary was blessed because of the task appointed to her. It doesn't make them any better just as it doesn't make Mary better. It only shows that God looked favorably on them and honored them. That in itself is a remarkable thing.
But as far as lineage goes with Abraham, we already know this doesn't mean anything.
The author never explains this writing of Paul:
“But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart,...”
He seems to skip this point by claiming that 99% of the time scripture uses Jew in the physical, literal sense. While that may be true, the point that Paul is making is obvious and self-explanatory.
Thats pretty good with a few minor details missing. A dispensationalist would see the conversion of the Jews at the 2nd coming as per Matt 24 (all tribes will mourn ...) in fulfillment of Zech 12.
Gill’s position is similar to that of many other reformed theologians since the time of the Reformation. I can support it to the point that the conversion of Israel is consistent with the postmillennial hope of the nations.
However, I cannot see this massive conversion at the actual time of the second coming. “All tribes will mourn” is not a statement of salvation, but rather of judgment. At the moment Christ appears, the day of salvation is ended. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matt. 8:11,12)
That’s a good point, but I’ve read dispensationalists and their near kinsmen the messianics who claim Paul was only speaking of physical Jews in that statement.
Commonwealth: An Englishman is not a Canadian, but both have the same king (or queen), and their rule of life (law), is built upon from the same foundation (the Magna Carta).
That’s but one example, and not appropriate to this setting. Another would be the commonwealth of Massachusetts, wherein all members are equal citizens on the same.
I also noticed the misinterpretation of the Greek in Eph. 2:11:
dio mnhmoneuete oti umeiV pote ta eqnh en sarki oi legomenoi akrobustia upo thV legomenhV peritomhV en sarki ceiropoihtouThe NKJV properly translates this verse for as as:
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh --who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands--The Greek renders to “once Gentiles in the flesh” indicating a former status. The author subtly changes this correct rendering to:
'Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are calledIn support of his overall thesis regarding the Jew/gentile distinction in the commonwealth.
But the Greek does not allow such a construction. Paul emphasis is on former gentiles after the flesh. “Former” gentiles supports the elimination of the Jew/gentile distinction ala Gal. 3:28,29.
It’s also worth noting that Paul’s designation for unbelieving gentiles -- “gentiles after the flesh” --corresponds to his similar phrase “Israel after the flesh” indicating unbelieving Jews (1 Cor. 10:18).
In the new covenant commonwealth of Israel there are no gentiles after the flesh or Israel after the flesh. There are only the spiritual children of Abraham, neither Jew nor Greek.
And this is a flaw as well.
Under the old covenant, there where physical descendents of Abraham in Israel as well as converts, those who actually underwent physical circumcision and followed all the ceremonial law. Once this happened they were considered full-fledged Jews. There were also sojourners and aliens, those dwellers in Israel subject to the civil laws but not necessarily all the ceremonials laws. E.g., they could not participate in the Passover, which was only for the circumcised.
The author wants to treat gentiles in the new covenant commonwealth as basically sojourners and aliens, rather than as full-fledged converts. This is unworkable from the NT perspective, since both Jews and gentiles have undergone the new covenant rite of initiation, water baptism (the NT analog of OT circumcision). They are more appropriately viewed as “converts” and thus full up members of the commonwealth, indistinguishable from the rest of the brethren.
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Eph. 4)
That is unlikely in this context; let me elaborate. The fulfillment of Zech 12 ... esp. vs 10 is in view here in Matt 24. Rev 1:7 also provides exegetical evidence that the fulfillment of Zech 12 occurs at the second coming.
That repentance is in view here is evident in the Zechariah passage; as it talks about God pouring out a spirit of grace and supplication (the LXX word used here means pity, mercy, compassion). The lexical data for the Hebrew word here is a little stronger than the NASB translation renders it ... it means "supplication for favor."
Its rather hard to see judgment in view here; salvation (grace) and repentance (supplication for favor) fits the context much better.
What of the mourning? I believe the mourning is the heartfelt response of the nation when they realize that Jesus was the Messiah that they rejected 2000+ years ago.
Allowing that Matthew 24:30 and Rev. 1:7 are speaking of the second coming (which I do not take them to be, but rather the judgment of Israel in AD70), there is still no repentance per se in view in either of those NT passages. We take our queue from the NT as being the fuller revelation of God.
I would take the words in Zech. 12 as encompassing the entire time from Christ’s first coming until His second. Remember this verse is also quoted at the cross, when the salvation of Israel was secured. Since that day many have been touched by the mercy of God and come to salvation by repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.
But at the last day the opportunity will be ended. The fact is that the second coming of Christ will not be a day of rejoicing for all Israel after the flesh as many will be cast into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. (Luke 13:28)
It will be a day of mourning for Israel after the flesh:
And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itselfToday is the day of salvation for all men.
In what sense was Jesus seen by the whole world "coming in the clouds of heaven" in AD 70?
In precisely the way that Jesus told the high priest he would be witness to these events.
Jesus said to him, "It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Matt. 26:64)
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