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Have You Been Saved?
LDS.org ^ | Dallin H. Oaks

Posted on 01/10/2011 5:06:57 AM PST by Paragon Defender

Have You Been Saved?

Elder Dallin H. Oaks
Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

 

 

Dallin H. Oaks, “Have You Been Saved?,” Ensign, May 1998, 55

As Latter-day Saints use the words saved and salvation, there are at least six different meanings.

 

 

 

What do we say when someone asks us, “Have you been saved?” This question, so common in the conversation of some Christians, can be puzzling to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints because it is not our usual way of speaking. We tend to speak of “saved” or “salvation” as a future event rather than something that has already been realized.

Good Christian people sometimes attach different meanings to some key gospel terms like saved or salvation. If we answer according to what our questioner probably means in asking if we have been “saved,” our answer must be “yes.” If we answer according to the various meanings we attach to the terms saved or salvation, our answer will be either “yes” or “yes, but with conditions.”

I.

As I understand what is meant by the good Christians who speak in these terms, we are “saved” when we sincerely declare or confess that we have accepted Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior. This meaning relies on words the Apostle Paul taught the Christians of his day:

“If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

“For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation” (Rom. 10:9–10).

To Latter-day Saints, the words saved and salvation in this teaching signify a present covenant relationship with Jesus Christ in which we are assured salvation from the consequences of sin if we are obedient. Every sincere Latter-day Saint is “saved” according to this meaning. We have been converted to the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, we have experienced repentance and baptism, and we are renewing our covenants of baptism by partaking of the sacrament.

II.

As Latter-day Saints use the words saved and salvation, there are at least six different meanings. According to some of these, our salvation is assured—we are already saved. In others, salvation must be spoken of as a future event (e.g., 1 Cor. 5:5) or as conditioned upon a future event (e.g., Mark 13:13). But in all of these meanings, or kinds of salvation, salvation is in and through Jesus Christ.

First, all mortals have been saved from the permanence of death through the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Cor. 15:22).

As to salvation from sin and the consequences of sin, our answer to the question of whether or not we have been saved is “yes, but with conditions.” Our third article of faith declares our belief:

“We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel” (A of F 1:3).

Many Bible verses declare that Jesus came to take away the sins of the world (e.g., John 1:29; Matt. 26:28). The New Testament frequently refers to the grace of God and to salvation by grace (e.g., John 1:17; Acts 15:11; Eph. 2:8). But it also has many specific commandments on personal behavior, and many references to the importance of works (e.g., Matt. 5:16; Eph. 2:10; James 2:14–17). In addition, the Savior taught that we must endure to the end in order to be saved (see Matt. 10:22; Mark 13:13).

Relying upon the totality of Bible teachings and upon clarifications received through modern revelation, we testify that being cleansed from sin through Christ’s Atonement is conditioned upon the individual sinner’s faith, which must be manifested by obedience to the Lord’s command to repent, be baptized, and receive the Holy Ghost (see Acts 2:37–38). “Verily, verily, I say unto thee,” Jesus taught, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (John 3:5; see also Mark 16:16; Acts 2:37–38). Believers who have had this required rebirth at the hands of those having authority have already been saved from sin conditionally, but they will not be saved finally until they have completed their mortal probation with the required continuing repentance, faithfulness, service, and enduring to the end.

Some Christians accuse Latter-day Saints who give this answer of denying the grace of God through claiming they can earn their own salvation. We answer this accusation with the words of two Book of Mormon prophets. Nephi taught, “For we labor diligently … to persuade our children … to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Ne. 25:23). And what is “all we can do”? It surely includes repentance (see Alma 24:11) and baptism, keeping the commandments, and enduring to the end. Moroni pleaded, “Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ” (Moro. 10:32).

We are not saved in our sins, as by being unconditionally saved through confessing Christ and then, inevitably, committing sins in our remaining lives (see Alma 11:36–37). We are saved from our sins (see Hel. 5:10) by a weekly renewal of our repentance and cleansing through the grace of God and His blessed plan of salvation (see 3 Ne. 9:20–22).

The question of whether a person has been saved is sometimes phrased in terms of whether that person has been “born again.” Being “born again” is a familiar reference in the Bible and the Book of Mormon. As noted earlier, Jesus taught that except a man was “born again” (John 3:3), of water and of the Spirit, he could not enter into the kingdom of God (see John 3:5). The Book of Mormon has many teachings about the necessity of being “born again” or “born of God” (Mosiah 27:25; see Mosiah 27:24–26; Alma 36:24, 26; Moses 6:59). As we understand these scriptures, our answer to whether we have been born again is clearly “yes.” We were born again when we entered into a covenant relationship with our Savior by being born of water and of the Spirit and by taking upon us the name of Jesus Christ. We can renew that rebirth each Sabbath when we partake of the sacrament.

Latter-day Saints affirm that those who have been born again in this way are spiritually begotten sons and daughters of Jesus Christ (see Mosiah 5:7; Mosiah 15:9–13; Mosiah 27:25). Nevertheless, in order to realize the intended blessings of this born-again status, we must still keep our covenants and endure to the end. In the meantime, through the grace of God, we have been born again as new creatures with new spiritual parentage and the prospects of a glorious inheritance.

A fourth meaning of being saved is to be saved from the darkness of ignorance of God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, and of the purpose of life, and of the destiny of men and women. The gospel made known to us by the teachings of Jesus Christ has given us this salvation. “I am the light of the world,” Jesus taught; “he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life” (John 8:12; see also John 12:46).

For Latter-day Saints, being “saved” can also mean being saved or delivered from the second death (meaning the final spiritual death) by assurance of a kingdom of glory in the world to come (see 1 Cor. 15:40–42). Just as the Resurrection is universal, we affirm that every person who ever lived upon the face of the earth—except for a very few—is assured of salvation in this sense. As we read in modern revelation:

“And this is the gospel, the glad tidings …

“That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;

That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;

“Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him” (D&C 76:40–43; emphasis added).

The prophet Brigham Young taught that doctrine when he declared that “every person who does not sin away the day of grace, and become an angel to the Devil, will be brought forth to inherit a kingdom of glory” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young [1997], 288). This meaning of saved ennobles the whole human race through the grace of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. In this sense of the word, all should answer: “Yes, I have been saved. Glory to God for the gospel and gift and grace of His Son!”

Finally, in another usage familiar and unique to Latter-day Saints, the words saved and salvation are also used to denote exaltation or eternal life (see Abr. 2:11). This is sometimes referred to as the “fulness of salvation” (Bruce R. McConkie, The Mortal Messiah, 4 vols. [1979–81], 1:242). This salvation requires more than repentance and baptism by appropriate priesthood authority. It also requires the making of sacred covenants, including eternal marriage, in the temples of God, and faithfulness to those covenants by enduring to the end. If we use the word salvation to mean “exaltation,” it is premature for any of us to say that we have been “saved” in mortality. That glorious status can only follow the final judgment of Him who is the Great Judge of the living and the dead.

I have suggested that the short answer to the question of whether a faithful member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been saved or born again must be a fervent “yes.” Our covenant relationship with our Savior puts us in that “saved” or “born again” condition meant by those who ask this question. Some modern prophets have also used “salvation” or “saved” in that same present sense. President Brigham Young declared:

“It is present salvation and the present influence of the Holy Ghost that we need every day to keep us on saving ground. …

“I want present salvation. … Life is for us, and it is for us to receive it today, and not wait for the Millennium. Let us take a course to be saved today” (Discourses of Brigham Young, sel. John A. Widtsoe [1954], 15–16). President David O. McKay spoke of the revealed gospel of Jesus Christ in that same present sense of “salvation here—here and now” (Gospel Ideals [1953], 6).

III.

I will conclude by discussing another important question members and leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are asked by others: “Why do you send missionaries to preach to other Christians?” Sometimes this is asked with curiosity and sometimes with resentment.

My most memorable experience with that question occurred some years ago in what we then called the Eastern Bloc. After many years of Communist hostility to religion, these countries were suddenly and miraculously given a measure of religious freedom. When that door opened, many Christian faiths sent missionaries. As part of our preparation to do so, the First Presidency sent members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles to meet with government and church leaders in these countries. Our assignment was to introduce ourselves and to explain what our missionaries would be doing.

Elder Russell M. Nelson and I called on the leader of the Orthodox Church in one of these countries. Here was a man who had helped keep the light of Christianity burning through the dark decades of Communist repression. I noted in my journal that he was a warm and gracious man who impressed me as a servant of the Lord. I mention this so that you will not think there was any spirit of arrogance or contention in our conversation of nearly an hour. Our visit was pleasant and cordial, filled with the goodwill that should always characterize conversations between men and women who love the Lord and seek to serve Him, each according to his or her own understanding.

Our host told us about the activities of his church during the period of Communist repression. He described the various difficulties his church and its work were experiencing as they emerged from that period and sought to regain their former position in the life of the country and the hearts of the people. We introduced ourselves and our fundamental beliefs. We explained that we would soon be sending missionaries into his country and told him how they would perform their labors.

He asked, “Will your missionaries preach only to unbelievers, or will they also try to preach to believers?” We replied that our message was for everyone, believers as well as unbelievers. We gave two reasons for this answer—one a matter of principle and the other a matter of practicality. We told him that we preached to believers as well as unbelievers because our message, the restored gospel, makes an important addition to the knowledge, happiness, and peace of all mankind. As a matter of practicality, we preach to believers as well as unbelievers because we cannot tell the difference. I remember asking this distinguished leader, “When you stand before a congregation and look into the faces of the people, can you tell the difference between those who are real believers and those who are not?” He smiled wryly, and I sensed an admission that he had understood the point.

Through missionaries and members, the message of the restored gospel is going to all the world. To non-Christians, we witness of Christ and share the truths and ordinances of His restored gospel. To Christians we do the same. Even if a Christian has been “saved” in the familiar single sense discussed earlier, we teach that there remains more to be learned and more to be experienced. As President Hinckley recently said, “[We are] not argumentative. We do not debate. We, in effect, simply say to others, ‘Bring all the good that you have and let us see if we can add to it’ ” (“The BYU Experience,” BYU devotional address, 4 Nov. 1997).

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints offers all of the children of God the opportunity to learn the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ as restored in these latter days. We offer everyone the privilege of receiving all of the ordinances of salvation and exaltation.

We invite all to hear this message, and we invite all who receive the confirming witness of the Spirit to heed it. These things are true, I testify in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


TOPICS: Other Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: ctr; cults; lds; mormon; salvation
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1 posted on 01/10/2011 5:07:01 AM PST by Paragon Defender
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To: Paragon Defender

I thought I had posted this one before but upon a search on the title I did not see it. If this is a duplicate I do apologize.


2 posted on 01/10/2011 5:15:41 AM PST by Paragon Defender
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To: Paragon Defender
The Lord Jesus Christ said "He who believes in the Son has eternal life"

Gospel of John 3:36. Thus the Lord is saying that He who has belief planted in him "HAS" Eternal Life and by implication is Saved.

We also see this in the same Gospel (John 6:36,37) where the Lord says that He will not cast them into Hell those who come to Him(through Faith). "But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."

So you see here, that the Lord Jesus Christ is talking about those who BELIEVE and that the "WILL CERTAINLY NOT CAST OUT" them into Hell.

Therefore, folks like us, can have the Full Assurance of Salvation and that we will be with Him Forever.

Once Belief upon Christ and Christ Alone for Salvation is given by God, one cannot lose their Salvation - for it is GIVEN BY GOD.

3 posted on 01/10/2011 5:35:57 AM PST by sr4402
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To: Paragon Defender

Here we go again.

Jesus is the only way to salvation. Mormons base their hope for “salvation” on their works, which CANNOT save them. They will die in their sins if they do not repent and come to Christ, putting aside hope in works and embracing His forgiveness.

It is NOT the official policy of Freerepublic to promote Mormonism. Mormons are conservative and therefore are welcome on this site, but this continual posting of Mormon doctrines is getting old.

I cannot speak on behalf of the administration, but I am sure they are getting really tired of this game.


4 posted on 01/10/2011 5:40:08 AM PST by PastorBooks
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To: PastorBooks

You forgot to mention the lucky underwear that good mormons are supposed to wear.

Good old Propaganda Defender is at it again! Hahaha!


5 posted on 01/10/2011 5:55:22 AM PST by Mr. Jazzy (God bless the United States of America and protect her from the enemies of freedom.)
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To: Mr. Jazzy

It is a ‘works’ thing. Like one of a scouts merit badges. You wouldn’t understand.


6 posted on 01/10/2011 6:56:54 AM PST by Leisler (They always lie, and have for so much and for so long, that they no longer know what about.)
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To: PastorBooks

Hi PB

I wasn’t going to respond much, especially to the anti-Mormon comments that are expected but I just wanted to set straight what you mention. My intent here is two-fold.

1. To share with other LDS folks on FR of which there are many. (No Caucus heading because that has been essentially taken away from us)

2. To set straight our viewpoint on certain doctrinal topics that are mentioned by anti-Mormon activists in other threads. I will likely post more as I see inaccurate mentions of us on other topics in other threads. This is not using the FR to “promote” Mormonism, we have plenty of sites for that.

Out of curiosity, although there seems to be a decline recently of the frequent attack posts on the LDS faith, were you “tired of that game” or is only when someone posts something that you disagree with?


7 posted on 01/10/2011 7:10:42 AM PST by Paragon Defender
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To: Paragon Defender; Jim Robinson; Religion Moderator
No Caucus heading because that has been essentially taken away from us)

Liar.

8 posted on 01/10/2011 7:15:38 AM PST by T Minus Four ("If Mormonism were a cult, I would know it and I would not be in it")
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To: Paragon Defender; colorcountry; Colofornian; Elsie; FastCoyote; svcw; Zakeet; SkyPilot; ...

Out of curiosity, although there seems to be a decline recently of the frequent attack posts on the LDS faith, were you “tired of that game” or is only when someone posts something that you disagree with?

- - - - -
No need to post threads, you have been doing a beautiful job for the Flying Inmans with your threads. No need to post more when we can just use yours.

And it isn’t a game.

BTW, Yeah I’m already saved.


9 posted on 01/10/2011 7:28:28 AM PST by reaganaut (Ex Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Mr. Jazzy
You forgot to mention the lucky underwear...

Or the holy crackers, or the blessed grape juice.

Making fun of Christians is fun. Thank you Maher & Jazzy.

Can we do the Jooooos next?

10 posted on 01/10/2011 7:31:05 AM PST by laotzu
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To: Paragon Defender; Jim Robinson; Religion Moderator; T Minus Four
(Caucus heading because that has been essentially taken away from us)

LOL....yep, the ability to take pot shots at Christians and Christianity under cover of the Caucus label HAS been "taken away".

Courtesy pings to JR and RM.

***********************************

Tuesday, January 04, 2011 2:08:24 PM · 1,502 of 2,371
Jim Robinson to Paragon Defender; Religion Moderator

I have removed the caucus designation from exactly two LDS threads in recent memory, both were posted by Paragon Defender. I did a search on “LDS Caucus” and he seems to be the primary poster of the vast majority of them. He seems to be spamming the forum with them. And if he and or his compatriots choose to continue violating my trust, I will either continue removing them or will suspend the LDS Caucus designation privilege altogether on FR.


11 posted on 01/10/2011 7:31:24 AM PST by greyfoxx39 (Don't enter a battfield with flowers for succor when surgeons are saving the lives of the wounded.)
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To: greyfoxx39
the ability to take pot shots at Christians and Christianity under cover of the Caucus label HAS been "taken away

Of course it has, that is cowardly. You must now take your anti-Christian potshots in the open and take your consequences. But you can still post a legitimate LDS caucus thread. You make a poor martyr.

12 posted on 01/10/2011 7:35:18 AM PST by T Minus Four ("If Mormonism were a cult, I would know it and I would not be in it")
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To: greyfoxx39; Paragon Defender

Meant the previous for PD of course. Mornin’ GF :-)


13 posted on 01/10/2011 7:37:33 AM PST by T Minus Four ("If Mormonism were a cult, I would know it and I would not be in it")
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To: Paragon Defender

And the mormon females ???

and the non-whites males ???

What about them ???

all mormon doctrine for the mortmon afterlife applies only to white mormon males...

Meanwhile in Christianity all can be born again...

Men, women, black, white, all nations and creeds...

Nana, was that around when the lust driven Joey Smith attempted to mess it up so that he could get himself wine, women and song and money and power over other people ???

THe LORD Jesus Christ who is God said, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.” John 3:3

The LORD Jesus Christ who is God said, “Do not marvel and act surprised that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ John 3:7

Paul said, “I am not ashamed of the Gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.” Acts 1:20

Paul said, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” Galations 3:28

Paul said, quoting Joel, “Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.” Acts 2:18

The LORD God said “And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.” Joel 2:28

Gollies looked at that...Women are included...equal with men in Christianity...and prophecing...women prophets...

Women being born again just like men...

Not so much in mormonism...

Mormonism is not Christianity...


14 posted on 01/10/2011 7:52:51 AM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: laotzu

Or the holy crackers, or the blessed grape juice.

Making fun of Christians is fun.
_______________________________________________

This is not about Christians this is about mormons...

Mormons dont use grape juice or wine in their religious rituals...

Mormons only ever use plain water...

always...

ask a mormon what that represents...


15 posted on 01/10/2011 7:56:38 AM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: laotzu

Mormons do not use wine or grape juice, they use water.

Mormons are not Christians, they THINK they are, but they are not. Their book of mormon is not a part of Christian scripture, PERIOD.


16 posted on 01/10/2011 8:03:50 AM PST by Mr. Jazzy (God bless the United States of America and protect her from the enemies of freedom.)
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To: Paragon Defender
Don't apologize PD, your posts are appreciated. I note that this is the first one in some time from an "official" LdS source vs. those other sites that are merely presenting their opinions or interpretations.

"“We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel[Which "gospel might you be referring to?]” (A of F 1:3)."

And here is where mormons have gone off the rails, so to speak.

Romans 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

(Romans 10:9-13, KJV).

"Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else." -Isaiah 45:22

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” —John 3:16

Joseph Fielding Smith says one obtains salvation by following laws and ordinances, but Paul has this to say about laws in Romans 3:20, "For by the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin." The Bible also says that Jesus Christ came to make peace by abolishing the law and blotting out ordinances. Ephesians 2:14 and 15 says, "For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, event he law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace. In Colossians Paul tells us that ordinance were blotted out and taken out of the way by nailing them to the cross.

Source; Salvation in Mormonism

17 posted on 01/10/2011 8:08:38 AM PST by SZonian (July 27, 2010. Life begins anew.)
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To: Paragon Defender; All
This is so full of theological holes - it is little wonder lds are not considered Christian by the rest of Christianity.

To Latter-day Saints, the words saved and salvation in this teaching signify a present covenant relationship with Jesus Christ in which we are assured salvation from the consequences of sin if we are obedient.

Lurkers will note "IF WE ARE OBEDIENT" - a conditonal 'salvation'. What is 'obedient'? Being completely godly, sinless and perfectly fulfilling all lds ordinances and laws.

Every sincere Latter-day Saint is “saved” according to this meaning. We have been converted to the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, we have experienced repentance and baptism, and we are renewing our covenants of baptism by partaking of the sacrament.

LDS definition of 'repentance' - complete and total rejection of sin and living a sinless life. If lds continues to sin, they by lds definition have not 'repented'.

I is humorous that the author writes of a weekly repentance. smith wrote regarding this:

“Repentance is a thing that cannot be trifled with every day. Daily transgression and daily repentance is not that which is pleasing in the sight of God.” —Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 148

We are not saved in our sins, as by being unconditionally saved through confessing Christ and then, inevitably, committing sins in our remaining lives (see Alma 11:36–37). We are saved from our sins (see Hel. 5:10) by a weekly renewal of our repentance and cleansing through the grace of God and His blessed plan of salvation (see 3 Ne. 9:20–22).

Of course the mormon has to resort to passages from a piece of fiction written in the 1800's. The bible clearly repudiates lds doctrine on this point -

Rom 5:6 KJV - For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 KJV - For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8 KJV - But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 KJV - Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 KJV - For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

The author of the article does make it clear to the reader - mormons cannot state with certainity that they are saved. Christian on the other hand CAN STATE with certainity because of the word of God in the bible - we are saved.

18 posted on 01/10/2011 8:09:43 AM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Paragon Defender
(No Caucus heading because that has been essentially taken away from us)

Well, well, well....PD, whining about something you did to yourself...is truly pathetic and sad.

You are the one JR whacked..for your spamming. You are the one...who has stomped all over FR.

Question: How many caucus threads did you get re-designated? And how many other mormon posters caucus threads has the same thing been done?

19 posted on 01/10/2011 8:15:37 AM PST by Osage Orange (MOLON LABE)
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To: laotzu
"Grape juice"???????

Tell the truth now....laotzu.

20 posted on 01/10/2011 8:19:23 AM PST by Osage Orange (MOLON LABE)
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To: T Minus Four; Paragon Defender
Liar

That word attributes motive, the intent to deceive, and is therefore "making it personal."

I will not however remove the post due to the high profile pings.

The Religion Forum guidelines have not changed. Posters must never use the caucus label as cover to take pot shots at non-members of the caucus, i.e. as a tactic in the debate.

As was emphasized in the recent dust-up, continued abuse of the caucus protection may result in the loss of that privilege to all members of the abusive caucus.

21 posted on 01/10/2011 8:28:21 AM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: Osage Orange
"Grape juice"???????

No. Grape juice.

22 posted on 01/10/2011 8:32:13 AM PST by laotzu
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To: laotzu; Osage Orange

Mormons don’t use wine or grape juice. They only use water and Wonder bread (with leavening).

BTW, did you know the LDS consider all non-mormons to be ‘gentiles’, even the Jews and that they alone are the true tribes of Israel?

Mormons aren’t Christians.


23 posted on 01/10/2011 8:54:50 AM PST by reaganaut (Ex Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Paragon Defender

PD, you are doing a bang up job!


24 posted on 01/10/2011 9:01:49 AM PST by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: laotzu
I thought you were a mormon......

Guess I was wrong..

Sorry

25 posted on 01/10/2011 9:42:51 AM PST by Osage Orange (MOLON LABE)
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To: Paragon Defender
Act 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

Act 20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Whoever rejects the Gospel of the Grace of God is accursed...Can not be and is not a child of God, a Christian...

Of course anyone can call themselves Christians and they do...

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

This or these verses may not apply to you guys but they certainly apply to someone...Someone, under any circumstances will not come into condemnation...He/she is Saved...Right now...And I submit that one someone they apply to is me...

I will agree with you that one of us is wrong and is not a Christian...But we both use the name Christian...Somebody's going to have to give it up...

26 posted on 01/10/2011 9:51:49 AM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Iscool

Can not be and is not a child of God, a Christian...

- - - - -
What is intersesting about your statement is it is the basic Christian view, that we BECOME children of God by adoption through our faith in Christ.

Mormon teaching is that we are all BORN children of God (because our spirits were born to Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother).

They ignore the adoption part all together. To them we are born without a sin nature and children of God. We only CHOOSE to sin, theoretically all humans can choose NOT to sin (Mormon motto is “Choose the Right” or CTR).

Jesus, our elder spirit brother, chose NOT to sin and that is why He got to be the Savior.

Our other elder spirit brother, Lucifer, wants us to sin because he is peeved he didn’t get a body and wasn’t picked as the savior. No, I am not kidding, I can provide references.


27 posted on 01/10/2011 10:36:22 AM PST by reaganaut (Ex Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Paragon Defender
To Latter-day Saints, the words saved and salvation in this teaching signify a present covenant relationship with Jesus Christ in which we are assured salvation from the consequences of sin if we are obedient.
It must be made clear that the meaning of "obedient" means to be obedient to the LDS rules, not the Jesus of the Bible.

You speak of a "covenant relationship with Jesus Christ in which we are assured salvation."

It must be clear that the Mormons have a diffent Jesus, one that had a father who had a father etc etc.

And a Jesus that has a brother who is satan.

The Bible speaks much of false Christs, do NOT use our Historical Biblical Jesus for your salvation, unless you wish to follow Him instead of your Jesus.

Thanks.

You do believe in the documented LDS teachings about your Jesus, don't you?

28 posted on 01/10/2011 10:47:46 AM PST by Syncro (Sarah Palin, the unofficial Tea Party candidate for president--Virtual Jerusalem)
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To: Paragon Defender
(No Caucus heading because that has been essentially taken away from us)
No it wasn't, it was being abused with proselytizing spam (more than 30 threads in one month) using the Historical Biblical Jesus intermingled with the LDS Jesus, who is NOT backed up by Biblical Scriptures.

This is not using the FR to “promote” Mormonism, we have plenty of sites for that.
Of course it is.

If there no posts to the contrary, the slick smooth words could be construed by some to speak of Christian salvation, which it is not.

This wouldn't fit the caucus designation anyway, it speaks of two different Jesus' and two completely different belief systems.

Seems kinda sneaky to me.

29 posted on 01/10/2011 11:00:38 AM PST by Syncro
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To: Syncro

To make it clear, my questions in #28 are to the writer of this article, not to you.

You may answer them for him though if you wish.


30 posted on 01/10/2011 11:03:06 AM PST by Syncro
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To: Osage Orange

Guess again...


31 posted on 01/10/2011 11:26:49 AM PST by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: ejonesie22; Osage Orange

Guess again...

- - - - - - - -

Well, it WOULD explain the derogatory reference to the elements of communion.


32 posted on 01/10/2011 11:57:49 AM PST by reaganaut (Ex Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Syncro

To make it clear, my questions in #28 are to the writer of this article, not to you.

You do believe in the documented LDS teachings about your Jesus, don’t you?
- - - - - -

He should, he is one of their “Twelve Apostles”. But then again, maybe he only stays in for the perks (and for the LDS general authorities those are many) and money.


33 posted on 01/10/2011 12:00:33 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Paragon Defender
We tend to speak of “saved” or “salvation” as a future event rather than something that has already been realized.

Too bad...


"I (Jesus) tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."
John 5:24

"because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. "
Hebrews 10:14

34 posted on 01/10/2011 12:07:56 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: reaganaut

You do believe in the documented LDS teachings about your Jesus, don’t you?
- - - - - -

He should, he is one of their “Twelve Apostles”

Well, they why does he blaspheme the LDS Jesus by trying to merge him with the Christian Jesus?

Now that is real sick, one of the 12 Apostles of LDS.

Unless they are trying to co-opt the real Jesus?

The should do that, and start following Him!

I guess the confusion goes all the way to the top of the ladder.

35 posted on 01/10/2011 12:10:58 PM PST by Syncro
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To: Paragon Defender
(No Caucus heading because that has been essentially taken away from us)

Boo hoo...

What's been 'taken away' is your USING the caucus sanctuary as a sniper zone; blasting away withOUT fear of MORMONism's LIES being called out.


Post yer List-o-Links® - it's safer for you.

36 posted on 01/10/2011 12:11:00 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Religion Moderator
That word attributes motive, the intent to deceive, and is therefore "making it personal."

Yup!

That about covers it!

37 posted on 01/10/2011 12:14:02 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Religion Moderator

Oh!

In the above reply; “IT” is MORMONism...


38 posted on 01/10/2011 12:14:57 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Syncro
 
It must be made clear that the meaning of "obedient" means to be obedient to the LDS rules, not the Jesus of the Bible.
 
May as well post the FACTS!
 



Articles of Faith

The Articles of Faith outline 13 basic points of belief of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The Prophet Joseph Smith first wrote them in a letter to John Wentworth, a newspaper editor,
in response to Mr. Wentworth's request to know what members of the Church believed.
They were subsequently published in Church periodicals.


They are now regarded as scripture and included in the Pearl of Great Price.

 
THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535—541
 
 

  1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
  2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
  3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
  4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
  5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
  6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
  7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
  8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
  9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
  10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
  11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
  12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
  13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith

 

39 posted on 01/10/2011 12:17:25 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
Sad, Jesus fulfilled the Law.

Believe (believe, continue to believe, repent, follow etc) on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

Paraphrase, but pretty accurate.

God new if the bolded area was needed, no one would be saved.

For goodness sake, that is why he sent Jesus!

40 posted on 01/10/2011 12:27:34 PM PST by Syncro
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To: Syncro; T Minus Four; reaganaut; Godzilla; ejonesie22; Colofornian; svcw; colorcountry; SZonian; ...
You speak of a "covenant relationship with Jesus Christ in which we are assured salvation."

The glaringly false part of that statement is left unsaid...this "covenant relationship between mormons and Jesus Christ" supposedly binds God/Christ by means of arcane rituals based mostly on Masonic practices which take place in secretive ceremonies and consist of handshakes worthy of an LA street gang, massaging the bare flesh of others with oil most likely purchased in bulk from Sam's club and chanting nonsense syllables reminiscent of the old song, "The Lion Sleeps Tonight". All the while wearing white jump suits, little aprons for both sexes and bakers' hats for the men.

Small wonder this takes part in a building that allows entrance only to mormons who meet the entrance requirements that include 10% of their lifetime income.

41 posted on 01/10/2011 12:29:45 PM PST by greyfoxx39 (Don't enter a battlefield with flowers for succor when surgeons are saving the lives of the wounded.)
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To: Syncro

Well, they why does he blaspheme the LDS Jesus by trying to merge him with the Christian Jesus?

- - - - - - -
In this case, to make them appear legitimate and to keep members in.

The internet has brought about a HUGE decline in membership of the LDS. And it is hurting them.

It is all about money and power and control.


42 posted on 01/10/2011 12:36:53 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Syncro

Now that is real sick, one of the 12 Apostles of LDS.

- - - - - -
What is sicker is they equate themselves with the 12 apostles of the Bible.


43 posted on 01/10/2011 12:38:00 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: reaganaut
they equate themselves with the 12 apostles of the Bible.

Wow, and this would have been another caucus thread if the light wasn't shown on the nefarious practices of the LDS trying to steal sheep.

LOL, this one is 12 times more non-caucus!

How presumptuous of them.

44 posted on 01/10/2011 12:43:36 PM PST by Syncro
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To: reaganaut
What is sicker is they equate themselves with the 12 apostles of the Bible.

I don't see how!

Just WHEN did the True Twelve EVER raise their hands in unison and swear, "We affirm that what Jesus says is TRUE!", like these lame 12 YESMEN of MORMONism do whenever their LIVING Prophet® ever DARES to open his mouth and say, "Thus saith the LORD."?

45 posted on 01/10/2011 12:43:50 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

And because Mormonism denies the truth that it is God’s Integrity which guarantees the believer’s Salvation, Mormonism is blasphemous. Yet they continue to have their dupes posting their heresies at FR, trying to appear ‘christian’. Not only is Mormonism not Christianity, it is fundamentally designed as blasphemy toward the God of the Bible! ... And before this thread is closed, I will bet a Mormonism apologist will come on here to claim Mormons believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob ... yet the god of mormonism was once a man and sits now enthroned in yonder Heavens, according to the founder of this blasphemous religion!


46 posted on 01/10/2011 12:47:34 PM PST by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: Iscool
I will agree with you that one of us is wrong and is not a Christian...But we both use the name Christian...Somebody's going to have to give it up...

We had it first. I'd insert a smiley face here but it isn't really funny.

47 posted on 01/10/2011 12:49:10 PM PST by T Minus Four ("If Mormonism were a cult, I would know it and I would not be in it")
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To: greyfoxx39

But, you have to give them “style points” for the hats.


48 posted on 01/10/2011 1:14:23 PM PST by Mr. Jazzy (God bless the United States of America and protect her from the enemies of freedom.)
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To: Elsie
Young's Literal Translation
John 5:24 `Verily, verily, I say to you -- He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life.

That phrase 'believing Him' is a form of 'pisteuo' which is a verb well translated as 'faithing in Him'. That one can trust God's clear promise is fundamental to the Gospel of Grace in Christ Jesus. When Mormonism or any other form of religious message claims that it is not enough to do what Jesus says so clearly in John 5:24, that religious message is blaspheming, bringing 'another gospel' which is not from God.

49 posted on 01/10/2011 1:23:07 PM PST by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: Paragon Defender
Shouldn't this be labeled...

Have You Been Saved? (Cultic Vanity)
LDS.org ^ | Dallin H. Oaks

50 posted on 01/10/2011 2:06:51 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion
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