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Journey Home - January 10, 2011 - Denise Bossert, Former Presbyterian (conversion story)
wf-f ^ | December 10, 2010

Posted on 01/10/2011 10:41:33 AM PST by NYer

The Christian tradition that emerged from John Wesley’s eighteenth-century Methodist movement has developed several branches. One of them is called the Wesleyan Church, and I was born into a family in that denomination. My parents met at a Bible college in Oskaloosa, Iowa. My father was studying to be a minister, and my mother was there to pick a husband out of the pool of future preachers.

Dad’s family was predominately Wesleyan. As Wesleyans, we believed in being born again. We boiled it down to the ABCs.

A: Accept Jesus as Savior.

B: Believe He died for you, personally, on the cross in atonement for your sins.

C: Confess your sins (privately) to Him and ask for forgiveness.

Wesleyan practice had many wonderful aspects. My earliest memories are of prayer meetings, personal testimonies of grace, and adults on their knees in prayer. We firmly believed that God was personally involved in our lives and actively working with us for our sanctification.

My mother’s family was United Methodist, one of the other denominations in the broader Wesleyan tradition. Sunday worship seemed a bit more formal there than in my father’s church, but my maternal grandparents had a personal faith. They paused after breakfast every morning to read from some spiritual book and contemplate a passage of Sacred Scripture. I remember how my maternal grandfather used to lead us in prayer, how the whole family knelt on the linoleum floor and propped their elbows up on kitchen chairs and folded hands as grandpa prayed.

This praying grandfather was a farmer, but his two brothers were United Methodist preachers. One was a well-known traveling evangelist who held tent meetings, preaching revivals and giving altar calls in which all were invited to come forward and invite Jesus into their hearts as Lord and Savior.

My maternal grandmother actually had a Quaker background. In fact, her own grandmother had been a Quaker minister. Quakers weren’t like the Wesleyans and United Methodists I knew. They were actively involved in social justice issues, and they were contemplatives. They believed in the prayer of quiet, a kind of prayer that actually has parallels in Catholic tradition, in Carmelite spirituality in particular.

Quakers would be reticent to admit this connection. In fact they rail at most things Catholic. No formal prayer. No structured worship. And no sacraments or holy rituals.

When my parents met their freshman year in college, then, they brought to their marriage a rich mix of inherited faith traditions.

In Love with Jesus Christ

My father’s second pastorate in the Wesleyan denomination was in Cedar Falls, Iowa. It was during this pastorate that my mother implemented a program at the church called Good News Club. One afternoon each week, the neighborhood children met in the basement of the church.

We sang peppy songs, and my mom told a Bible story. We earned little trinkets for memorizing Scripture, with door prizes to encourage the kids to come back the next week. One week, at the end of the program, my mother shared with us the evangelical Protestant understanding of the plan of salvation.

I don’t remember very much about that afternoon. I just remember wanting to be forgiven. And I remember falling head over heels in love with Jesus Christ.

Shortly after that first conversion, I asked my mom if I could be baptized. We were attending family church camp, and I remember the dozens of campers and tents lined up in a row and a big tent for evening camp meetings. I distinctly remember the people in white tunics, down at the river — how they walked into the water with the Wesleyan pastors and one by one were immersed in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

My soul cried out for that: Me, too! But mom said I was not old enough truly to understand.

When we returned to the parsonage (pastor’s home), I began to ask if I could receive communion, which was usually offered four times a year. Again I was told that I wasn’t ready yet.

I remember telling my mom that the bread stood for Jesus’ body, because He died on the cross for our sins. And the grape juice (which is what Wesleyans used for communion) represented His blood, which Christ shed on the cross for our sins. And then I looked at her as if to say, isn’t that it?

“Yes, that’s right,” she told me. But I still wasn’t permitted to receive.

A Divided Christian World

It was the summer of my ninth birthday, and my sister was headed into fifth grade. I remember hearing my parents talk about her assigned teacher, and how rumor had it that he had taught students about the occult during the previous year. So they considered sending my sister and me to the Catholic school across the street from our public school.

I don’t know why my parents went ahead and sent us to the public school. Maybe they realized that gossip isn’t always true, or maybe they didn’t think they could afford Catholic school. But one thing stuck with me, and I thought about it that next year every time I was on the Lincoln Elementary playground.

I would look across the street at all those children dressed in their Catholic school uniforms. I would see the sisters who monitored the recesses. And I would wonder why my parents, who had provided my sister and me with every Christian experience (worship, Christian records, Christian books, Bible camp, Good News Club) had stopped short here.

I suppose that was my first experience with a divided Christian world. It wasn’t outright anti-Catholicism, but a concrete sign of division and separation.

During that school year my paternal grandfather passed away in a farming accident. Dad left pastoral ministry, and we moved to the family farm to help grandma. I had known what it was like to have a pastor as a father, and now I was given the chance to have a farmer for a father. Both experiences were wonderful. We all expected that Dad would continue on as a farmer, but God opened a different door.

During our time on the farm, a local Presbyterian church called my dad. They needed someone to fill the pulpit until they could find a replacement for their previous pastor. My dad became the favorite stand-in, and eventually the nominating committee asked him if he would consider becoming their new pastor.

He accepted the position. So he spent the next three years traveling back and forth to the nearest seminary (in Dubuque, Iowa) to complete a Master of Divinity degree, reserving the weekends for sermons and visits to parishioners.

I soon noticed a number of differences between Wesleyans and Presbyterians. We didn’t kneel to pray in church anymore — ever. We didn’t talk very much about holiness or sanctification.

Once we were Presbyterian, we stopped going to camp meetings in the summer. Believers weren’t baptized down by the river. They were baptized at the font, usually when they were babies.

Many of the hymns changed. We learned a new prayer they called “the Lord’s Prayer”. The teenagers went to Confirmation class and had to learn the Apostle’s Creed.

One important difference I noticed was that the Presbyterians didn’t talk dramatically about the need to be “born again”. It seemed as if they believed that being “right with Christ” was more of a lifelong pursuit and not a single-moment-in-time prayer. 

That’s when I first realized that Protestants had many interpretations of Scripture. Even though they might all agree that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, I discovered, not all Protestant Christians believe the same things. 

This was a new and confusing thought. If truth isn’t just a matter of opinion, why did some of the denominations have totally different ideas about when we should be baptized, how we are sanctified and justified before God, and whether we can ever lose the gift of grace and mercy once we have it?

The questions weren’t simply whether Eve ate an apple or a pomegranate. These two denominations had differing opinions on key issues of life, death, and salvation.

Mixed Messages

During seminary, Dad studied Greek and began to rethink his position on baptism. As a Wesleyan, he had dedicated infants and held to a believer’s baptism at the age of accountability. But his seminary studies uncovered a troubling problem with that theological position.

He now pointed out New Testament passages to my mother in which entire households presented themselves for baptism. He showed her the Greek word for household, which included every member, slave and free, young and old — infants included.

Soon my sister and I were baptized. A few short years before, my mother had said I was too young, that I needed to wait until I understood the deeper theological implications. But now, because the denomination required it, I was slated to be baptized — at the direction of my parents. I certainly was receiving mixed messages.

That same year, a friend invited me to a weekend sleepover, and I went with her family to Sunday Mass. I didn’t pay much attention until the Liturgy of the Eucharist. At that point, I realized that it was what my family would have called “Communion Sunday”. (I didn’t realize that it’s “Communion Sunday” every Sunday for Catholics.)

Lori leaned over and asked me if I knew about Communion. Mom had recently given me permission to receive Presbyterian communion, so I whispered back to Lori, “I know all about communion”. But then everyone started standing up and going forward, and I turned in a bit of a panic and said, “Lori, we don’t do it like this. What do I do?”

My friend was not equipped to handle this sudden crisis, She just said, “Hold your hands like this, say amen, and cross yourself when it’s over.” (A somewhat incomplete catechesis, to be sure.)

And that’s how I received Our Eucharistic Lord that day, in complete oblivion.

It doesn’t take a brilliant theologian to know that this was a missed opportunity for Catholic apologetics. An open communion table, which many Protestant denominations offer, doesn’t help bring unity, even though it seems like it should. Here’s the ironic thing: A closed communion actually facilitates unity because it facilitates questions that demand answers.

As it was, the teachable moment was lost to me — and would not come again for thirty years.

My junior year of high school brought another interesting “Catholic” moment. My sister and I had ended up in a very small debate class along with five Catholic boys. While other students in the class avoided the Catholic-Protestant dialogue, Bob Johanns and I never missed an opportunity to engage one another in a theological debate. Bob had a natural gift for personal apologetics and wasn’t intimidated in the least by the offspring of Protestant clergy.

For a novice debater, he made some irrefutable points.

His first argument was based on the undeniable legacy found in the history of the Catholic Church. He spoke of the unbroken line of apostolic succession and the terra firma of Catholic teaching. I remember wishing I had the legacy argument on my side of the debate because it was such an effective point.

To refute the point, I argued that his Church legacy didn’t always merit acclaim. He pointed out that I didn’t have any legacy, but rather a fractured system of Protestant denominations, loosely united by one word: Christian. It was hardly the unity Jesus intended when He asked the Father to make us one as He and the Father are one (see Jn 17:21).

His second argument for the Catholic Church rested on the saints. I dismissed this point because they were Catholic saints, not my saints. Why did I need to know about them?

In the end, his points failed to win me over. But they gave me a great deal to think about.

Changes and Challenges

My father took another pastorate after my junior year, which required our family to move to another town. I was angry and lonely. I met a boy that year, a Presbyterian. We became serious very quickly, and we married just one month after my eighteenth birthday.

We had three children within five years. The marriage was tumultuous from the start.

When I was pregnant with our third child, my husband was “led to Christ” in the evangelical Protestant sense and was “born again”. My husband announced that he felt a call to ministry, and we moved our family of five to Dubuque. There he enrolled in the same seminary my father had attended years before.

Dubuque was one of the first towns to add EWTN to its cable line-up. So, in between my own undergraduate classes, I would catch episodes of Mother Angelica Live while my husband worked on his Master of Divinity. I was fascinated by the spunky nun in the brown habit.

I graduated and took a position teaching Spanish in a local Catholic high school. I didn’t convert, but I asked questions. One day in the faculty lunch room, I asked Brother Roger Betzold what everybody was doing in the Mass right before the Gospel reading.

He told me they made the Sign of the Cross on their head, lips, and heart as a reminder and a promise that the words from Holy Scripture would remain in their minds, on their lips, and in their hearts. I was amazed by the beauty and meaning behind the simple act. I had asked the question thinking that Catholics practiced meaningless rituals — only to realize that the rituals did indeed have profound meaning.

My husband eventually had second thoughts about pastoral ministry and switched degrees to a Master of Religion, which is an academic rather than a professional degree. After his graduation, we moved to Atlanta so he could return to the field of business. In our search for a church home, we visited a United Methodist church.

When the pastor visited us to “court us for membership”, he was surprised to learn of my husband’s seminary degree. Within months, my husband was on staff of the church as the program director. He enrolled in Emory University so that he could finish the Master of Divinity degree he’d started at Dubuque.

The parishioners thought their program director and his little family were absolutely wonderful. But I can tell you, things were not all wonderful. Two months before my husband was slated to be ordained, the marriage crumbled.

I wasn’t teaching at the time. I had no job and no money, and the only place to go was back home to my parents. After a ten-month separation, the marriage ended.

Nearly a decade later, I would go through the healing process of laying the whole thing before Mother Church. At that time I would come to a realization: What happened after our wedding day wasn’t disordered so much as the events leading up to the wedding day. The Church was the only one with the authority to sort through the mess and declare that this attempted marriage had not been valid.

All that would come in time; for now, I was dealing with the aftermath of a marital hurricane. My parents helped me pick up the pieces of my life. I filled my days with substitute teaching positions and took a stab at freelance writing. I wrote an article tracing the trends in Protestant fiction and sold my first article to two papers. 

In Love with the Saints

During this time, my father was diagnosed with a debilitating neurological disorder. He would eventually be forced to go on disability and leave pastoral ministry permanently.

In October 2003, my father’s health began to decline rapidly. On December 28, 2003, he passed away. In that moment, everything changed.

When I saw his body lying motionless on the hospital bed, I realized there was something almost holy in that room. Something sacred. Something that surpassed the world of human senses. And I realized that I hadn’t noticed the holy or sacred in anything for a long time.

I had never experienced such consuming grief. I was surprised that grief could also be holy — and a moment of incredible and unexpected grace.

When my father died, I inherited his personal library. I perused those theology books in a quest for answers to my nagging questions about suffering. I didn’t really know what I was searching for. Maybe something my father had written in a margin, something that might help me through the pain.

In the bottom of one of those boxes, I found a book by Saint Augustine called The Confessions. When I read the book, something this man wrote hundreds and hundreds of years ago caught my attention: “The man who knows [all things] is unhappy, and happy is the man who knows [the Lord].”

Over and over, Saint Augustine said the happy man is the man who seeks the Lord. As I read, it seemed that Dad was nodding his head, affirming that this would be my journey through the pain to the other side.

Many years earlier, when I was working on the article I noted, a religion reviewer at Publisher’s Weekly had recommended that I read a series by Susan Howatch. I had recently completed the series and I needed another book. I decided to try something by a woman named Evelyn Underhill, a woman mentioned in a couple of Howatch’s books.

I discovered almost immediately that Evelyn Underhill had great respect for the Quakers. And then there was the intriguing fact that Underhill wanted to be Catholic, but had remained Anglican at the request of her husband. Catholic. How odd, I thought.

Then I read a chapter in Underhill’s book entitled Dark Night of the Soul. The answers to my questions about suffering were beginning to lead to answers, and I wanted to know more about the book upon which Ms. Underhill had based her chapter. I found an English translation of her source, a book of the same title by Saint John of the Cross.

I was so taken by that book that I wanted to know whatever I could about the man who wrote it. When I learned that his spiritual companion was a Carmelite by the name of Saint Teresa of Ávila, I went in search of her books next.

I was beginning to fall in love with Catholic saints. I should have known then that my days as a Protestant were numbered.

Real Presence?

A couple of years before Dad died, he had mentioned a priest by the name of Father Larry Brunette, who served on a ministerial board with him. I remembered Dad’s saying that he really liked this priest. In June of 2004, I called Father Brunette and told him that I was feeling an inexplicable tug toward the Catholic Church.

He told me that everything comes down to what I believe about Holy Communion. He said that if I could accept Jesus Christ at His word, I would continue this faith journey. If I could not believe in the Real Presence, the journey would come to an end right there.

Then the priest suggested a little book called The Lamb’s Supper by a former Presbyterian minister, Dr. Scott Hahn. I remember being very surprised. Protestant clergy becoming Catholic? Really! I didn’t know that such a thing ever happened.

I considered the priest’s words. Could I truly believe that Jesus Christ was really present in the Eucharist?

I picked up my Bible and turned to the Gospel of John, chapter six, where Jesus tells His disciples: “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.… For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed” (vv. 53, 55). Then I read the Gospel accounts of the Last Supper, when Jesus says, “This is my body … this is my blood” (Mt 26:26, 28 and parallel passages). In both accounts, the faithful disciples take Him at His word.

Soon after that, I made a trip to the nearest Catholic Church. I told the secretary that I thought I was supposed to become Catholic, and I needed to know what to do next. They signed me up for Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults (RCIA) classes.

RCIA was wonderful — until December. That’s when I faced my greatest obstacle. In December 2004, our RCIA leader introduced the class to the Church’s teaching on the Immaculate Conception.

Home to Mother Church

I announced to the entire class that I couldn’t accept that Mary was conceived without sin. I was willing to admit that Protestants had let the pendulum swing too far in the opposite direction, relegating Mary to a minor role in the Christmas story. But I thought that such a development was in response to excessive Catholic Mariology.

After many attempts to help me understand, the instructor mentioned that I had the option of placing a petition before the Blessed Mother. I could always ask Mary herself to show me the truth.

As an Evangelical, I had placed many petitions before the Lord. That was not a new concept. And I didn’t have a problem with asking Mary to answer my petition. I just didn’t think she would do it. 

The dogma of the Immaculate Conception, in fact, was the one obstacle that had stood between my father and the Catholic Church. I had vivid memories of discussions between my parents about this strange Catholic teaching. Could I accept it?

Not yet. I needed more evidence. So I prayed — hard.

“Lord”, I said, “I will follow you wherever you lead, even if it is down a road my father could not take. I just want to get this right. And so, I beg You not to answer the petition I place before Your mother if this teaching shouldn’t be embraced.”

Then I turned my heart to Mary and laid it on the line:

“Mary, if you are immaculately conceived as the Catholic Church says, and if you love me, please answer this petition. I want someone to communicate with me by your inspiration. I need the communication to encourage me in the faith, and I don’t want it to be from Catholic friends at the school where I used to teach.

“I don’t want it to be from anyone in my parish. I have shared this struggle with some of them, and they may know through earthly tongues that I need to be propped up. Mary, I want the message to come from you to the ears of one who could know no other way.

“Please choose someone who, for me, would represent the universal Catholic Church. Then I will know I am right where I’m supposed to be and that the Church’s teachings are all correct, terra firma, especially the teachings about you. Please answer my petition before the end of the year — I know, that’s just two weeks away.”

In the mailbox the next day was a letter from a woman who had appeared on The Journey Home [the EWTN television show on conversions to the Catholic Church] the previous July. She had written me once in August 2004. In December, she decided to write me a second time to encourage me in the faith and let me know she was praying for me.

Her letter was dated December 8, 2004. Above the date, she had handwritten “The Feast of the Immaculate Conception”. With tears streaming down my face, I read her two-page, single-spaced letter. 

Mary Beth Kremski’s letter had been dated four days before I made the petition, arriving less than twenty-four hours after my request for help. Our Lady had proved herself to be the Immaculate Conception and a mother with impeccable timing.

On August 14, 2005, in the Year of the Eucharist, I received Our Lord — Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity — in Holy Communion. Finally, I was home.

I had begun a journal back when my father had been sick. When I was sure that I was ready to enter Mother Church, I took a section of the journal and worked it into an eight-hundred-word article. I attached it to an email and sent it to the editor at my local diocesan paper, the St. Louis Review.

He ran it … and the Review is still running my articles. In the last five years, 37 diocesan papers have run pieces of my conversion story.

I’m married now. On Christmas Eve of 2007, my husband (who had vowed he would never become Catholic) told me he had been secretly studying with our parish RCIA leader. He was ready to join me in Mother Church.

On the Easter Vigil of 2008, we received the Eucharist for the first time as a family.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: freformed; methodist; presbyterian
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Denise Bossert's blog is Catholic by Grace
1 posted on 01/10/2011 10:41:37 AM PST by NYer
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To: NYer

Beautiful story. I am so proud of this family. Too bad some are so brainwashed and can’t see where the truth is....the Catholic Church.


2 posted on 01/10/2011 10:44:23 AM PST by napscoordinator
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; markomalley; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; ...
From her web site:


My Favorite Blog Post - why I love the Immaculate Conception

Have you ever watched a television program that changed your life? Well, that’s what happened to me – but it took more than five months for the full impact to hit me. It began on July 16, 2004. I caught the tail-end of a Journey Home program (EWTN), and I was immediately drawn to that night’s guest. On a whim, I wrote Mary Beth Kremski and attempted to explain something that I didn’t completely understand myself – my growing desire to enter the Catholic Church.

I had been fascinated by Mrs. Kremski because she was a Third Order Carmelite – or at least that’s what the tag line at the bottom of the television screen said. I didn’t know what Third Order meant, but I knew that the authors of the books I had recently read were Carmelites. St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila – only they lived in the 1500s. I had no idea that there were Carmelites living and breathing today! What luck! I had to write her. I had so many questions.

We exchanged just one set of letters in August, and then the communication ended. I turned my attention to the local Catholic Church and decided to try RCIA class and see what would happen from there.

In December of 2004, the RCIA leader at my parish introduced the class to the Church’s teaching on the Immaculate Conception. I’ve come to the conclusion that our Blessed Mother was gently guiding me through this part of my journey, but at that moment in time, she seemed to be nothing more than one major stumbling block for me.

I announced to the entire class that I couldn’t accept that Mary was conceived without sin. I was willing to admit that Protestants had let the pendulum swing too far in the opposite direction, relegating Mary to a minor role in the Christmas story, but I felt that was in response to excessive Catholic Mariology. I explained that, while I believed the Lord could do that for Mary, I was convinced it was highly unlikely that he did do it. At that moment, I didn’t even have enough faith to say, I believe, Lord help my unbelief.

The terrible thought hit me then. Where does one go when she believes in Apostolic Succession, the Papacy, Purgatory, the Communion of Saints, and all Catholic Teaching, except the Immaculate Conception? What was the name of that denomination? I felt like Peter when he said, where else can we go? This is a difficult teaching, Lord, but I’ve nowhere else to turn.

After many attempts to help me understand, my RCIA instructor mentioned that I had the option of placing a petition before the Blessed Mother. If I had sincerely given myself to the task of understanding and I still couldn’t embrace this teaching, he told me that I could always ask Mary to show me the Truth.

As an Evangelical, I had placed many petitions before the Lord. That was not a new concept. And I didn’t have a problem with asking Mary to answer my petition. I just didn’t think she would do it.

I knew a lot was riding on this petition. The Immaculate Conception was the one obstacle that stood between my father (a Presbyterian minister) and the Catholic Church. In fact, if he could have resolved this issue, I’m convinced he would have converted to the Catholic Church thirty years ago. Before I made my petition to Mary, I prayed, “Lord, I will follow you wherever you lead, even if it is down a road my father could not take. I just want to get this right. And so, I beg You NOT to answer the petition I place before Your Mother if this teaching shouldn’t be embraced.” Then I turned my heart to Mary and laid it on the line:

Mary,

If you are as the Catholic Church says and if you love me, please answer this petition. I want someone to communicate with me by your inspiration. I need the communication to encourage me in the faith, and I don’t want it to be from Catholic friends at the school where I used to teach or my Catholic in-laws. I don’t want it to be from anyone in my parish. All of them—well, I have shared this struggle with some of them, and they may know through earthly tongues that I need to be propped up. Mary, I want the message to come from you to the ears of one who could know no other way. Please choose someone who, for me, would represent the Universal Catholic Church. Then I will know I am right where I am supposed to be and that the Church’s Teachings are ALL correct, terra firma, especially the Teachings about you. Please answer my petition before the end of the year—I know, that’s just two weeks.

This petition is rewritten word-for-word from my journal entry for December 12, 2004, the day I said the prayer. I knew it was unlikely I would receive a response. Almost as unlikely as the Immaculate Conception, I thought.

Our Lady didn’t make me wait very long. In the mailbox the next day was a letter from the woman who had appeared on The Journey Home the previous July. I had not heard from her since August when her one and only letter arrived. BUT, in December of 2004 she decided to write me a second time to encourage me in the Faith and let me know she was praying for me. Her letter was dated December 8, 2004. Above the date, she had hand-written The Feast of the Immaculate Conception. With tears streaming down my face, I read her two-page, single-spaced letter.

I had been ready to abandon the journey. I knew it would drive me crazy to teeter on the fence for very long. That’s why I had put a time restriction on the Blessed Virgin. That letter sealed everything for me. Like Thomas when he touched the wounds of Our Lord, all my doubts were gone instantly.

Mary is my Mother! And like the truest mother, she loves me and knows me better than I know myself. After all, she knew the very thing I would ask of her before I even asked it. Mary Beth Kremski’s letter had been dated four days before I made the petition, arriving less than twenty-four hours after my request for help. Our Lady proved herself to be the Immaculate Conception and a Mother with impeccable timing.

3 posted on 01/10/2011 10:44:45 AM PST by NYer ("Be kind to every person you meet. For every person is fighting a great battle." St. Ephraim)
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To: NYer
In June of 2004, I called Father Brunette and told him that I was feeling an inexplicable tug toward the Catholic Church. He told me that everything comes down to what I believe about Holy Communion. He said that if I could accept Jesus Christ at His word, I would continue this faith journey. If I could not believe in the Real Presence, the journey would come to an end right there.
Beautifully succint.

Happy New Year!

4 posted on 01/10/2011 11:02:36 AM PST by eastsider
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To: NYer
I soon noticed a number of differences between Wesleyans and Presbyterians. We didn’t kneel to pray in church anymore — ever. We didn’t talk very much about holiness or sanctification.

If that was the only differences she noticed she was a doctrinal idiot.. thus her conversion to catholism

5 posted on 01/10/2011 11:08:44 AM PST by RnMomof7 (Gal 4:16 asks "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?")
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To: RnMomof7

If that is your complete understanding of things, then I don’t think she’s the one who is the idiot.


6 posted on 01/10/2011 11:22:23 AM PST by vladimir998 (Copts, Nazis, Franks and Beans - what a public school education puts in your head.)
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To: RnMomof7

If that was the only differences she noticed she was a doctrinal idiot.. thus her conversion to catholism.” ___________________________________________________________

Good grief, give it a rest. You aren’t her. You weren’t there. Her story is not your story...uhmmm... if you have one. Our Father determines the measure of budding faith, their experiences as they are formed. Not you and not me, certainly.


7 posted on 01/10/2011 11:26:01 AM PST by RitaOK
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To: RnMomof7

If that was the only differences she noticed she was a doctrinal idiot.. thus her conversion to catholism.” ___________________________________________________________

Good grief, give it a rest. You aren’t her. You weren’t there. Her story is not your story...uhmmm... if you have one. Our Father determines the measure of budding faith, their experiences as they are formed. Not you and not me, certainly.


8 posted on 01/10/2011 11:26:07 AM PST by RitaOK
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To: NYer

. “And so, I beg You not to answer the petition I place before Your mother if this teaching shouldn’t be embraced.”

She doesn’t ask the Lord directly if the teaching should be embraced, she asks him not to answer the petition she places before “his mother” if it “shouldn’t be embraced”.(Fascinating!)

So she gets some “letter” which in her already made up mind confirms her already desired direction. She has no assurance that it was actually God that was answering or “not answering” her request.

Gideon “laid a fleece” ASKING GOD DIRECTLY to confirm his word which God did so by first wetting the fleece with dew but not the ground on one night, then wetting the ground on another night but not the fleece.

I would have had more of an open mind on this lady’s story should she have asked...”Lord, I need a word from you DIRECTLY....is this teaching true or not true, never mind what ever petitions I place before Mary?”

By the way, I did ask those same questions for myself, and I was and am always continuously reminded of the temple veil rent in two as God’s declaration that we can all come boldly before the throne of grace, having an advocate with the Father which is Christ Jesus!


9 posted on 01/10/2011 11:26:44 AM PST by mdmathis6 (Jesus never said, "suffer the children to come unto me after they talk to my MOM, first!")
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To: NYer

“As Wesleyans, we believed in being born again.”

And now she doesn’t?


10 posted on 01/10/2011 11:28:41 AM PST by Augustinian monk (NAFTA/GATT- How 's that free trade thingy workin out, America?)
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To: NYer
Mary, If you are as the Catholic Church says and if you love me, please answer this petition. I want someone to communicate with me by your inspiration. I need the communication to encourage me in the faith

Huh?

I have been told time and time again that catholics don't pray to Mary.

Obviously I've been misinformed.

11 posted on 01/10/2011 11:33:26 AM PST by what's up
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To: RnMomof7

“If that was the only differences she noticed she was a doctrinal idiot.. thus her conversion to catholism”

I believe the author was speaking of her childhood observations. If you can’t read the story in context, then it appears YOU are the once with the problem, not the author.


12 posted on 01/10/2011 11:33:39 AM PST by surroundedbyblue
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To: what's up
No, we don't worship Mary. So we don't pray to her as we pray to the Father or to Jesus.

But we certainly pray to her in the sense of petitioning her - in other words, ask her to pray for us, to help us, to guide us to her Son.

That's what Mary does - she's a helper on the road to Christ - a major helper, an important helper, queen of the saints and Queen Mother to her Son the King.

Everything she does is pointed towards her Son, from the moment that she said to the Angel, "Be it done unto me according to thy word," Luke 1:38, to her last words in the Bible, "Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it." John 2:5.

You might say that when I am feeling the weight of sinfulness very heavily and am ashamed to lift my head to the Lord Jesus, I can take hold of a corner of Mary's mantle and ask her to stand beside me and help me to make a good confession, do penance, amend my life and approach the Lord's altar again. I am here to tell you that she will help you like a good friend when you stumble and fall.

13 posted on 01/10/2011 12:05:07 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: AnAmericanMother
Yeah, right. I've been told that Cathlics don't PRAY to Mary...they ask her to pray for THEM on their behalf...just like one would ask a neighbor to pray.

WRONG. The Catholic in this article asked Mary to take action...to give them a sign...no mention of mere intercession to Christ on their behalf. Sure, there may be catholics who do not pray to Mary...but there are plenty who do and it's disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

ask her to stand beside me and help me to make a good confession, do penance, amend my life and approach the Lord's altar again

Christ's atonement and resurrection is all you need to approach the Lord's altar. Nothing else.

14 posted on 01/10/2011 12:20:23 PM PST by what's up
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To: what's up; RnMomof7

The whole Mary/canopy of saints theology kind of reminds me of a man trying to get ahold of customer service.....:”RINNNNNNG, RIIIINNNNNG...bzzzzzzCaller: Uh father in Heaver I’m having a little trouble with tempt.....”beeep, Hello, this is Jesus Christ, I’m out at the moment spinning a new galaxy into being, please leave your petititions with Mary or one of the lesser deities uh errr saints and I will get back to you with them at the earliest possibility; any confessions of sin can be made at any local parish Catholic church or sent up the temporal chain of cammand depending on perceived severity. Have a good day and remember, I love you and my Mom REALLY loves you!” BEEEP.

Caller” wait wait come back, I really need you now and I’m not anywhere near a priest, saint, catholic church... hmmm I wonder what the Bible says...oh I see...temple veil torn in two, go boldly before the the throne of Grace, advocate with the Father”

Lord God, I am tempted and I need to see my Lawyer, Jesus Now!...I am a sinner in need of Grace....

and suddenly a whisper and an inner rising ebullience
(I’m here with you always my child and MY FRIEND; let us talk about what is troubling you...!)


15 posted on 01/10/2011 12:31:54 PM PST by mdmathis6 (Jesus never said, "suffer the children to come unto me after they talk to my MOM, first!")
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To: AnAmericanMother; what's up
No, we don't worship Mary. So we don't pray to her as we pray to the Father or to Jesus. But we certainly pray to her in the sense of petitioning her - in other words, ask her to pray for us, to help us, to guide us to her Son.
Man Just Using Virgin Mary To Get To Jesus

16 posted on 01/10/2011 12:32:38 PM PST by Alex Murphy ("Posting news feeds, making eyes bleed, he's hated on seven continents")
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To: mdmathis6
Lord, I need a word from you DIRECTLY....is this teaching true or not true, never mind what ever petitions I place before Mary?”

You apparently missed the following petition she made to our Lord.

I announced to the entire class that I couldn’t accept that Mary was conceived without sin. I was willing to admit that Protestants had let the pendulum swing too far in the opposite direction, relegating Mary to a minor role in the Christmas story, but I felt that was in response to excessive Catholic Mariology. I explained that, while I believed the Lord could do that for Mary, I was convinced it was highly unlikely that he did do it. At that moment, I didn’t even have enough faith to say, I believe, Lord help my unbelief.

I knew a lot was riding on this petition. The Immaculate Conception was the one obstacle that stood between my father (a Presbyterian minister) and the Catholic Church. In fact, if he could have resolved this issue, I’m convinced he would have converted to the Catholic Church thirty years ago. Before I made my petition to Mary, I prayed, “Lord, I will follow you wherever you lead, even if it is down a road my father could not take. I just want to get this right. And so, I beg You NOT to answer the petition I place before Your Mother if this teaching shouldn’t be embraced.”

Watch the program this evening. It airs at 8pm - LIVE - on EWTN. They have a viewer call in segment. You can pose the question directly to her.

17 posted on 01/10/2011 1:02:15 PM PST by NYer ("Be kind to every person you meet. For every person is fighting a great battle." St. Ephraim)
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To: what's up
I have been told time and time again that catholics don't pray to Mary. Obviously I've been misinformed.

And I will repeat what you have been told by other catholics though choose to disregard. Catholics DO NOT worship Mary. The word "pray" means to address a solemn petition. It is no different from you asking any of your friends to "pray" for you. The difference here is that some of our friends are in heaven. When it comes to Mary, she holds a special relationship as the Mother of God. From the cross, Jesus entrusted His mother to His followers. The 10 commandments tell us to Honor our mother and father. When catholics "pray" to Mary, they are honoring the mother entrusted to them by our Lord and Savior, as requested by Christ.

18 posted on 01/10/2011 1:10:15 PM PST by NYer ("Be kind to every person you meet. For every person is fighting a great battle." St. Ephraim)
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To: RnMomof7; vladimir998; RitaOK; Salvation
If that was the only differences she noticed she was a doctrinal idiot..

Wish I had a $1 for every conversion thread on which you have posted that or a similar comment.

From Pastor to Parishioner: My Love for Christ Led Me Home [Drake and Crystal McCalister]
(why am I Catholic?) Because I Awoke from a Long, Bad Dream [Webster Bull]
From the Ark to the Barque (Hadley Arkes Speaks about His Reception Into the Catholic Church)

Because of the Divine Beauty of the Mass [Tom and Terry Fenwick]
Anglican Priest Comes Home! [Tim Gahles and his wife Vanessa and family]
The Conversion of Alphonse Ratisbonne
The Journey Home: June 7 - Michael Cumbie - Former Charismatic Episcopal clergyman
Former Colombian model shares conversion story [Amada Rosa Pérez ]
The Leadership of Jesus - SF Master Sergeant Mike Cutone (Conversion Story/Book Review/Interview)
Former Mormon looks forward to baptism at Easter vigil [Melissa Reeves]
From Lesbian Atheist to Stay-at-Home Mother of Six: Quebec Journalist Tells Her Story [Brigitte Bedard]
New Catholics a sign of Easter blessing for church (in Oregon)
Protestant Organist Finds Musical Home in the Catholic Church [Gary Marks]

Record number confirmed in Baltimore, despite recent media attacks on Church
An inspiring story of one man’s journey to becoming Catholic[Jeremy Feldbusch]
Can It Be? (Testimony of a former Jehovah's Witness)
Why I am a Catholic[CAROLYN E. DAVIS ]
Man Who "Died" 5 Times Is Becoming Catholic [Jeremy Feldbusch] (Thousands to Enter Church at Easter)
EWTN - The Journey Home - Monday March 22 - Fr. Donald Calloway
Mystery, Meditation, Media: An Interview with Matt Swaim - (Former Presbyterian)
The Reasons for G.K. Chesterton's Conversion
Fr. John Corapi's Conversion story - March 6 at 10pm on EWTN
Responding to the Pope’s Anglican Invitation (priest relates journey from Pentecostalism) [Father Douglas Grandon ]

In the Breaking of the Bread (conversion story of Tim Drake)
Australia's Traditional Anglicans Vote to Convert to Catholicism
Church of England Bishop Converts to Rome [Bishop Paul Richardson}
From Krishna to Christ: The Conversion Testimony of Father Jay Kythe
Ex-Protestant at home in Byzantine Catholic Church {Father James Barrand]
In Iraq, soldier finds a new faith (Muslim converts to Catholic faith)
Why I Left Anglicanism [Fr. Longenecker]
EWTN - The Journey Home - Oct. 26, 2009 - David Twellman, former United Methodist
Senior Anglican bishop reveals he is ready to convert to Roman Catholicism, Rev John Hind
Book: "You Have Not Chosen Me, But I Have Chosen You..." (23 Surprised Converts)

Newt Gingrich on Catholicism and JPII
Mickey Rourke thanks God and Catholic faith for 'second chance'
Catholic convert and political commentator Robert Novak passes away
Why Newt Gingrich Converted to Catholicism
Reading Into the Church [Deal W. Hudson]
Gnarly: from abuse victim, to prostitute, to surfer, to minister [Mary Setterholm]
Cathedral rector’s priestly journey began with early conversion [ Fr. Bob Clements]
The Great Philosopher Who Became Catholic [Mortimer J. Adler]
The Greater Blessings [David Mills]

EWTN - Journey Home - June 22, 2009 at 8pm - Dr. Jay Budziszewski - former Episcopalian
Cardinal says Catholics humbled by Anglicans' decision to join church
Catholic convert from Oregon coast becomes a priest (former Evangelical)
EWTN - The Journey Home - June 15, 2009 - Marcus interviews a Muslim convert [Talat Strokirk]
(All Saints) Sisters Doing It For Themselves (Anglican House converting en masse)
Journey Home to the Catholic Church: I Have Jumped into the Tiber to Swim Across (UK minister, Fr. Jeffrey Steel )
EWTN - Journey Home - June 8, 2009 at 8pm - Fr. Jay Toborowsky, Jewish convert
EWTN - Monday 8pm - Journey Home - Jerry & Yolanda Cleffi (former Assembly of God)
Exclusive: Newt Gingrich Opens Up on Catholic Conversion and Embracing 'Overt Christianity'
Mom’s Gift From Pope [Heidi Sierras]

The Journey Home - April 27 @ 8pm - Doug Grandon former Episcopal clergyman
EWTN - The Journey Home - April 20 - Msgr. Keith Barltrop, former Baptist
Journey Home - Monday April 6 - Kenneth Howell, Former Presbyterian minister
Newt Gingrich on his conversion to Catholicism
Gingrich Keeps Quiet on Catholic Conversion (received into Church over the past weekend)
Exclusive: Newt Gingrich conversion details; plans release of JP2 documentary
“150,000 new or returning Catholics”
Catholic Church prepares for tens of thousands of U.S. converts
Gingrich to Become Catholic During Easter Season
Faith Journey Leads United Methodist from Pastorate to Catholic Priesthood

From Atheist to Catholic (‘Unshakable’ Rationalist Blogged Her Way Into the Church) [Jennifer Fulwiler]
Former Episcopal bishop discusses his new life as Catholic priest [Father Jeffrey N. Steenson]
The Newt Evangelization: Gingrich to become Catholic
Conservative Episcopal bishop resigned to become Roman Catholic priest (New Mexico) Rev. Jeffrey Steenson
Converted Muslim Tells Story Behind Papal Baptism
EWTN - The Journey Home - December 1 - Dr. Steven C. Smith (former Willow Creek)
Former Socialist senator who converted to Catholicism calls for end to abortion [Mercedes Aroz]
Young New Yorker leaves police force to become priest [Nicholas Fernandez]
Interesting Deathbed Converts
Hollywood screenwriter returns to Cleveland, turns life over to God [Joe Eszterhas]

A Journey in Prayer {Randy Hain} [Ecumenical]
ECUMENIC] Our Conversion Experience (SDA to Catholic) [Brandon and Tara Ogden]
An open letter to Mr. Stephen A. Baldwin, Actor, and “born again” Christian [ Victor R. Claveau, MJ "
Sick person who suffered accident recounts conversion after traveling to Lourdes [Ecumenical] [Antonio Escobedo Garcia]
Welcome Home! Anglo-Catholic Sisters on the Road to Rome [Ecumenical]
Former Anglican Bishop, Catholic Convert, Jeffrey Steenson on Anglocatholicism [Ecumenical]
Jeffrey Steenson: Why I Became Catholic [Address to Anglican Use Conference]
Tony Snow Dead at 53, A Tribute to a Catholic Journalist [Tony Snow - Catholic Convert]
A Sexual Revolution (One woman's journey from pro-choice atheist to pro-life Catholic) [Jennifer Fulwiler]
C of E bishop will defect to Rome

Assyrian bishop explains his journey into communion with the Catholic Church
Virginia Tech tragedy leads bereaved mother on journey back to faith [Marian Hammaren]
Journey Home - EWTN at 8pm - Dr. William Bales, former Presbyterian Minister [Ecumenical]
First the Protestants, Now the Cults: Will We (the Catholic Church) Be Ready? [Open]
Six Million African Muslims Convert to Christianity Each Year [OPEN]
EWTN - The Journey Home - May 19 - Tom Cabeen, former Jehovah's Witness [Ecumenic]
A TRIUMPH AND A TRAGEDY [James Akin]
Alex Jones: the evangelical who became a Catholic deacon
Mary and the Problem of Christian Unity [Kenneth J. Howell, Ph. D.}
How the Saints Helped Lead Me Home [Chris Findley]

Who is Mary of Nazareth? [Kenneth J. Howell, Ph. D.}
A story of conversion at the Lamb of God Shrine
EWTN - Journey Home - 4/7/08 - Rosalind Moss - Former Jew & Evangelical Christian
Our Lady’s Gentle Call to Peace [Joan Tussing]
Coming Out of Sodom (Reversion Experience of Once-Active Homosexual) [Eric Hess]
Our Journey Home [Larry and Joetta Lewis]
Book on Mary turns runaway youngster immersed in drugs and crime into a priest
Dr. Robert C. Koons (former Lutheran) - Journey Home - Monday 3/31 - Conversion Story
The Story of a Convert from Islam – Baptized by the Pope at St. Peter's [Magdi Cristiano Allam]
How Do We Know It’s the True Church? - Twelve Things to Look For [Fr. Dwight Longenecker]

"Have you not read?" The Authority behind Biblical Interpretation [Robert Sungenis]
New Catholics ‘ on fire’ for faith
New faith pulls Hot Springs family together (Baptists join Catholic Church at Easter Vigil) [Danny Morrison and family
SciFi Writer, John C. Wright, Enters Catholic Church at Easter Vigil (conversion story)[John C. Wright]
"What is Truth?" An Examination of Sola Scriptura [Dwight Longenecker’family]
LOGIC AND THE FOUNDATIONS OF PROTESTANTISM [Fr. Brian Harrison]
Pope baptizes prominent Italian Muslim [Magdi Allam]
My Journey of Faith [Marco Fallon]
My (Imminent) Reception into the Roman Catholic Church [Robert Koons]
Thousands in U.S. to Join (Catholic) Church - Many Feel They Have Found a Home

TURN ABOUT (Carl Olson, former Evangelical and Monday's guest on EWTN's Journey Home)
Former Southern Baptist Pastor Now a Traveling Crusader for the Catholic Church [Michael Cumbie]
All Roads Lead To Rome (A Southern Baptist's Journey into the Catholic Church)[John David Young]
Allen Hunt, Methodist Minister ...Journeys Home (Catholic, Re: Real Presence)/a>
The Challenges and Graces of Conversion [Chris Findley]
An Open Letter...from Bishop John Lipscomb [Another TEC Bishop Goes Papist]
Unlocking the Convert's Heart [Marcus Grodi]
His Open Arms Welcomed Me [ Paul Thigpen}
Why I'm Catholic (Sola Scriptura leads atheist to Catholic Church)
From Calvinist to Catholic (another powerful conversion story) Rodney Beason

Good-bye To All That (Another Episcopalian gets ready to swim the Tiber)
Bp. Steenson's Letter to his clergy on his conversion to the Catholic Church
Bishop Steenson’s Statement to the House [of Bishops: Episcopal (TEC) to Catholic]
Bp. Steenson's Letter to his clergy on his conversion to the Catholic Church
Bishop Steenson Will Become a Roman Catholic
Married man considers turn as Catholic priest
Pavarotti returns to the Catholic faith before dying
Searching For Authority (A Methodist minister finds himself surprised by Truth!)
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part VI: The Biblical Reality (Al Kresta)
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part V: The Catholics and the Pope(Al Kresta)

The Hail Mary of a Protestant (A true story)
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part IV: Crucifix and Altar(Al Kresta)
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part III: Tradition and Church (Al Kresta)
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part II: Doubts (Al Kresta)
Conversion Story - Rusty Tisdale (former Pentecostal)
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part I: Darkness(Al Kresta)
Conversion Story - Matt Enloe (former Baptist) [prepare to be amazed!]
THE ORTHODOX REVIVAL IN RUSSIA
Conversion Story - David Finkelstein (former Jew)
Conversion Story - John Weidner (former Evangelical)

Patty Bonds (former Baptist and sister of Dr. James White) to appear on The Journey Home - May 7
Pastor and Flock Become Catholics
Why Converts Choose Catholicism
From Calvinist to Catholic
The journey back - Dr. Beckwith explains his reasons for returning to the Catholic Church
Famous Homosexual Italian Author Returned to the Church Before Dying of AIDS
Dr. Francis Beckwith Returns To Full Communion With The Church
laetare (commentary on ordination of married Anglican convert to the Archdiocese of Los Angeles) Father Bill Lowe
Catholic Converts - Stephen K. Ray (former Evangelical)
Catholic Converts - Malcolm Muggeridge

Catholic Converts - Richard John Neuhaus
Catholic Converts - Avery Cardinal Dulles
Catholic Converts - Israel (Eugenio) Zolli - Chief Rabbi of Rome
Catholic Converts - Robert H. Bork , American Jurist (Catholic Caucus)
Catholic Converts - Marcus Grodi
He Was an Evangelical Christian Until He Read Aquinas [Rob Evans]
The Scott Hahn Conversion Story
FORMER PENTECOSTAL RELATES MIRACLE THAT OCCURRED WITH THE PRECIOUS BLOOD
Interview with Roy Schoeman - A Jewish Convert
Church Is Still Attracting Converts [Jim Anderson]

19 posted on 01/10/2011 1:16:55 PM PST by NYer ("Be kind to every person you meet. For every person is fighting a great battle." St. Ephraim)
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To: NYer
The word "pray" means to address a solemn petition. It is no different from you asking any of your friends to "pray" for you.

So now you are saying it's OK to "pray" to my friend i.e. address a solemn petition?

Egads.

It is no different from you asking any of your friends to "pray" for you

As I already stated, this lady did NOT JUST ASK MARY TO PRAY FOR HER. You are widely missing the point.

From the cross, Jesus entrusted His mother to His followers

You are very incorrect. Read the Bible text again. He entrusted Mary to John.

20 posted on 01/10/2011 1:24:19 PM PST by what's up
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To: NYer

Let me share a little bit of a Hymn some of you may recognize, “The Church’s one foundation is Jesus Christ her Lord...”
No one on earth, no human soul in heaven has anything to do with it. Not a single bit of tradition. No one to stand between me and my Savior.
It is Jesus Christ and me.


21 posted on 01/10/2011 1:32:48 PM PST by vpintheak (Democrats: Robbing humans of their dignity 1 law at a time)
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To: what's up
So now you are saying it's OK to "pray" to my friend i.e. address a solemn petition?

No ... and don't twist my words. Have you ever asked anyone to pray for you? Then you addressed a solemn petition to your friend. Asking someone to pray for you is far more serious than asking your friend to join you for drinks at the local bar.

22 posted on 01/10/2011 1:40:11 PM PST by NYer ("Be kind to every person you meet. For every person is fighting a great battle." St. Ephraim)
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To: NYer
Asking someone to pray for you is far more

And the person who writes the article did far more than just ask Mary to "pray for her". Get it yet?

23 posted on 01/10/2011 1:51:49 PM PST by what's up
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To: what's up
No, I think you missed the point.

I'm glad, though, that you have such confidence that you can stand on your own, without any friends (on earth or in heaven) to help you.

Me, I'm a bit diffident when approaching the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, so if I have a friend (or several friends) by my side to encourage me and steady my trembling knees, that is a good thing.

O Mary Conceived Without Sin, Pray For Us Who Have Recourse to Thee. St Anthony of Padua, Pray For Us. St Therese of Lisieux, Pray For Us.

24 posted on 01/10/2011 2:08:39 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: AnAmericanMother
you have such confidence that you can stand on your own, without any friends (on earth or in heaven)

ABSOLUTELY FALSE. I have ZERO confidence that I can stand on my own.

I put ONE HUNDRED PERCENT confidence in the righteousness of CHRIST.

If you think Christ is not a friend in Heaven...well, that is a fairly large problem for you.

25 posted on 01/10/2011 2:16:00 PM PST by what's up
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To: vpintheak
Gotta read the whole hymn . . . .

Yet she on earth hath union
With God the Three in One,
And mystic sweet communion
With those whose rest is won,

With all her sons and daughters
Who, by the Master’s hand
Led through the deathly waters,
Repose in Eden land.

Interestingly enough, the author (an Anglican minister and Oxford man) wrote another poem called "The Knight of Intercession". Make of it what you will.

26 posted on 01/10/2011 2:16:29 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: what's up

Christ is the Good Shepherd, but also the Righteous Judge, who will come at the end of time when the heavens thunder and the earth gapes. I ask my friends to help me so that I may be fit on that day to stand with the sheep - even the least of them - and not the goats.


27 posted on 01/10/2011 2:21:38 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: AnAmericanMother
I ask my friends to help me so that I may be fit on that day to stand with the sheep

Your friends are not the help you should seek. They will not make you fit. Only righteousness makes one fit in the direct presence of an all-powerful, all-just and all-holy God.

Righteousness is to be found in no other. "There is NO OTHER NAME UNDER HEAVEN" (Isaiah). Christ's blood is what will save you. Don't look elsewhere.

28 posted on 01/10/2011 2:26:56 PM PST by what's up
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To: NYer; RnMomof7

I posted my petition to God and he brought to mind the torn temple veil and promise of the advocate with the Father. As for ETWN, I can’t get it since i shut off cable TV.

I went thru the Bible with quite a few translations available with an open mind with the notion if I was shown some justification for Mariology as the Catholics confess it, I would begin to take their claims seriously. (Being as the Bereans who checked every doctrine via scripture to see if would be true) I never found any direct evidence of scriptural support for the “traditions and writings” of various church theologians and popes who affirmed Mariology and proclaimed her sinlessness and ongoing intercessional authority to be true Christian doctrines.

On the otherhand I would never state the belief that all Catholics are nonchristians just like Catholics need to be careful about stating that all Protestants are “anathema” or outside of Grace. RN mom of 7 has a very compelling story on her FREEPER page about how she was drawn from Catholicicsm to a Protestant belief system. I’ve read other unique stories about how some found Christ via a confession of faith and the partaking of the Catholic Eucharist. Other stories I’ve read spoke of Catholics and Protestants joining Eastern Orthodox rites.

My point is, the Holy spirit blows where it wills, drawing the children of God into this ministry or that ministry, may draw some to be Catholics, others Protestant, even some Orthodox. We raise theological dust and forget the Christ who loves us and the Father who made us, but it is the Holy Spirit that carries that dust away ....for the Shekinah glory of God shall be made manifest, the knowledge of that Glory shall cover the Earth as the waters cover the seas!


29 posted on 01/10/2011 2:32:51 PM PST by mdmathis6 (Jesus never said, "suffer the children to come unto me after they talk to my MOM, first!")
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To: what's up
Of course you believe in the Communion of Saints?

The purpose of church and fellowship is to help one another towards righteousness. "Comfort one another and edify one another" as St. Paul says in 1st Thessalonians.

Of course you do. The only difference is that our communion extends to the Church Triumphant (in Heaven) as well as the Church Militant (on Earth) and the Church Suffering (in Purgatory).

30 posted on 01/10/2011 3:03:20 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: AnAmericanMother
"Comfort one another and edify one another"

This is veering from the topic at hand.

Yes, God's love is to be displayed. The community of saints on earth (whom Paul is referring to) needs edification because it is still enduring the sinful effects of the world, but this in no way extends to depending on one another when it comes time to stand before an Almighty God.

Christ's death alone has provided the righteousness needed to stand in the day of Judgment.

31 posted on 01/10/2011 3:21:05 PM PST by what's up
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To: what's up; AnAmericanMother

wu, your words have called a Biblical story to my mind.

Jesus was going about curing the lame and the blind and the lepers. There was a man who was a paralytic and he wasn’t able to go on his own to seek Jesus for a healing. So his friends took the initiative for him. They made a hole in the roof and lowered his pallet until he was placed at Jesus’ feet. It was there that he was cured.

It was his friends who were faithful and cared for him who made it possible for him to meet Jesus and to be cured.

His friends were intercessors for him.

The same can be said for the story of the centurion who sent his foot soldier, as an intercessor, to Jesus to ask for a cure for his daughter.


32 posted on 01/10/2011 3:27:13 PM PST by Running On Empty ((The three sorriest words: "It's too late"))
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To: what's up
The community of saints on earth (whom Paul is referring to) needs edification because it is still enduring the sinful effects of the world

Yes, and that's why we ask the saints in heaven to edify and encourage us -- because they no longer endure the sins of the world. And Christ is the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world. So they, who are in heaven, help us to endure.

33 posted on 01/10/2011 3:28:58 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: AnAmericanMother
Yes, and that's why we ask the saints in heaven to edify and encourage us

No, Paul was saying the believers on earth should edify each other. You are reading more into the scripture than what is clearly meant.

You have given me more proof that Catholics do not pray only for the saints to intercede for them. They pray for the saints theselves to edify and encourage them, believing that those who have already passed on have power to do so.

This is similar to the buddhists in Singapore I encountered who pray for their dead ancestors' help in life.

34 posted on 01/10/2011 3:46:31 PM PST by what's up
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To: Augustinian monk

Hate to break your bubble....but she believes all the more in being born again through Baptism!


35 posted on 01/10/2011 3:57:52 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Running On Empty
I'm not exactly what your point is.

Christians do things for each other all the time and they are exhorted by the scripture to do so.

If you are somehow trying to use your examples to prove that these people asked for help from beyond the grave, there is no inkling in your examples that this is true.

36 posted on 01/10/2011 3:59:40 PM PST by what's up
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To: what's up
Matthew 22 - He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are not dead. The "cloud of witnesses" and the "spirits of men made perfect" in Hebrews are not dead either.

And at the Transfiguration, Christ conversed with Moses and Elijah, long dead by earthly reckoning. He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

37 posted on 01/10/2011 4:19:31 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: AnAmericanMother
Obviously, those who die in Christ are alive forevermore.

But this does not mean they have authority to help us.

The point of that scene of the transfigured Moses and Elijah may be opposite of that which you intend...the point was to censure Peter when he mistakenly gave Moses and Elijah too much attention...and God certainly never told Peter to pray to them.

It's so easy to depend on other sources than God in prayer. As I pointed out...this is common in religions like Buddhism and easy to slip into..it dilutes dependence on God and it's easy to go from there to idolatry.

However, Jesus told us how to pray. He never told us to pray to anyone other than God.

38 posted on 01/10/2011 4:47:45 PM PST by what's up
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To: what's up; AnAmericanMother; Running On Empty
Obviously, those who die in Christ are alive forevermore.
But this does not mean they have authority to help us.

"Authority"?!! They're still bound by love of neighbor (that includes us!), as they are by love of God -- that's why "the greatest of these is charity", because faith will become knowledge, hope will be fulfilled, charity is eternal.

You seem to picture Heaven as structured something like IBM or a government bureaucracy, isolated individuals jockeying for position and indifferent to the fate of others -- we see the saints in Heaven as extended family -- "the Communion of Saints"!

It's so easy to depend on other sources than God in prayer. As I pointed out...this is common in religions like Buddhism and easy to slip into..it dilutes dependence on God and it's easy to go from there to idolatry.

Now, that's just silly!

39 posted on 01/10/2011 5:21:38 PM PST by maryz
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To: maryz
They're still bound by love of neighbor (that includes us!),

And that includes crossing back over into the temporal to act in response to our petitions? I think not.

Now, that's just silly!

No, that's reality.

40 posted on 01/10/2011 5:27:15 PM PST by what's up
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To: what's up
The point of that scene of the transfigured Moses and Elijah may be opposite of that which you intend...the point was to censure Peter when he mistakenly gave Moses and Elijah too much attention

You get that from the text ... how, exactly?

The point of the scene was to put Jesus in the presence of the Law (Moses) and the Prophets (Elijah) personified, to show that he fulfills them both. Nothing about any censure of Peter is mentioned, AFAIK.

41 posted on 01/10/2011 5:37:09 PM PST by Campion
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To: what's up
And that includes crossing back over into the temporal to act in response to our petitions? I think not.

The church in heaven is just as much the Body of Christ as the church on earth is, and there's one body (one faith, one baptism, etc.), not two.

What you're saying amounts to proposing that death cuts off the bonds of charity that bind some members of the Body to other members. We think that, in a fight between death and the Body of Christ, the Body of Christ wins. We have pretty good grounds for believing that, starting with a certain empty tomb on a certain Sunday morning, 2000 years ago.

42 posted on 01/10/2011 5:44:21 PM PST by Campion
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To: Campion
Peter's offer of setting up tabernacles for Moses and Elijah was rejected; his understanding was at fault.

God elevated Christ above the other figures when he declared Jesus His Son.

43 posted on 01/10/2011 5:59:39 PM PST by what's up
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To: NYer; Alex Murphy

Thanks, NYer, for this interesting post. It was interesting to read about how someone innocent, without an agenda, viewed her various experiences with many types of Christians. A child just soaks up impressions.

Her instincts told her something was wrong; she was looking for bedrock that didn’t change (just as God does not change). She finally found it— but it was sad to read that so many threw obstacles in her way. How many Christians feel the tug to the Church and fight it because they’ve been taught that the Church is evil? It reminded me of how the Apostles, who did believe in Christ, tried to keep the little children from getting closer to Him.

That’s how I see other Christians who work overtime trying to discredit Christ’s own beloved Church: they are believers but they are preventing God’s children from having a truly close relationship with Christ. They are keeping those children from touching Christ, and having Him touch them, through the Eucharist. They are obstacles, holding the innocent back from Christ because they think they know best what that relationship should be like.

Christ said no. He wanted to touch the children physically and hold them close. All signs in the Gospels point to Christ’s habit of using the tangible physical elements of this world to reach us. He could have created out of thin air, but He used the homely things of this world to help us SEE. He touched, He healed, He used mud and spit, He laid hands, He raised, He used bread and fish and wine. The Eucharist is just another, and the greatest, tangible way to touch us and hold us close. And the most amazing gift of all is that He set the tangible embrace on Earth for all eternity by instituting the Holy Eucharist. We consume Him and love for Him consumes us.

It’s no accident that His first and last miracles involved a banquet with wine. One was a wedding banquet where He chose to publicly enter into a New Covenant with us; the other was a Passover banquet where He sealed the New Covenant and gave us eternal, continual salvation in complete unity with Him.

Catholicism is the most beautiful, unified, whole fabric, incredible religion there is. (But, of course; look who started the Church!)


44 posted on 01/10/2011 7:10:36 PM PST by Melian ( See Matt 7: 21 and 1 John 2: 3-6)
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To: Melian
Thanks, NYer, for this interesting post. It was interesting to read about how someone innocent, without an agenda, viewed her various experiences with many types of Christians....

....That’s how I see other Christians who work overtime trying to discredit Christ’s own beloved Church: they are believers but they are preventing God’s children from having a truly close relationship with Christ. They are keeping those children from touching Christ, and having Him touch them, through the Eucharist. They are obstacles, holding the innocent back from Christ because they think they know best what that relationship should be like.

And thank you, Melian, for pinging just me to your post and the thread. It's clear that someone has an agenda, otherwise they would have labelled Denice Bossert as a former Wesleyan Methodist too, instead of just a former Presbyterian. Your convert showed great theological depth in commenting that (all) Wesleyans kneel in prayer, talk often about holiness and sanctification, and attend camp (revival) meetings in the summer - and (all) Presbyterians don't. It's very interesting that her Wesleyan pastor father only baptised adults in a river, instead of infants at a font. It's even more interesting that he never taught his congregation, let alone his own daughter, the Lord’s Prayer or the Apostle’s Creed until he became a Presbyterian.

Nope, no agenda here. Presbyterians bad, Catholics good, Wesleyans get a complete pass and a poorly educated girl gets 15 minutes of fame on cable TV for saying so. Move along, citizens.

45 posted on 01/10/2011 7:57:04 PM PST by Alex Murphy ("Posting news feeds, making eyes bleed, he's hated on seven continents")
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To: NYer

Calling a new convert an idiot and then someone else coming along to excuse it, by pointing fingers at those who object, says so much more about the name caller and excuser than it does of those who object, your nice laundry list put aside. Now speaking of your laundry list, if you can find the word “idiot” used anywhere then post it. You said it. You do your own leg work and prove it. Fair enough?


46 posted on 01/10/2011 7:57:13 PM PST by RitaOK
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To: Alex Murphy

IF we accept your premise that this poorly educated Christian doesn’t know what she is talking about when it comes to her former faith tradition and has an agenda, THEN we would also have to accept that poorly educated former Catholics who don’t know what they are talking about when it comes to their former faith tradition also have an agenda.

That’s just logic.

I thought our convert showed tremendous insight. She was obviously introspective from her earliest youth and cared deeply about having a real relationship with God. It was a long, thoughtful journey. She continued to persevere and found the Truth. Smart cookie. Glad to have her.


47 posted on 01/10/2011 8:12:27 PM PST by Melian ( See Matt 7: 21 and 1 John 2: 3-6)
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To: Melian
IF we accept your premise that this poorly educated Christian doesn’t know what she is talking about when it comes to her former faith tradition and has an agenda

That wasn't my premise. But you go right on and keep trying if you want.

48 posted on 01/10/2011 8:15:47 PM PST by Alex Murphy ("Posting news feeds, making eyes bleed, he's hated on seven continents")
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To: Alex Murphy

“And thank you, Melian, for pinging just me to your post and the thread.”

I’m not sure what you mean there. You had already posted on this thread (#16) and I also posted the same comment to NYer.

It’s just that I think about you and your faith journey, Alex Murphy, and pray for you.


49 posted on 01/10/2011 8:17:44 PM PST by Melian ( See Matt 7: 21 and 1 John 2: 3-6)
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To: NYer; RnMomof7
Wish I had a $1 for every conversion thread on which you have posted that or a similar comment.

Wow. That's a mighty big - and awfully convenient - list of links.

50 posted on 01/10/2011 8:18:41 PM PST by Alex Murphy ("Posting news feeds, making eyes bleed, he's hated on seven continents")
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