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The new corruption meter [how does religion affect a nation's level of corruption?]
livemint.com ^ | Jan 14 2011 | Aakar Patel

Posted on 01/14/2011 12:57:20 PM PST by Alex Murphy

The map is a representation of the 2010 Corruption Perceptions Index, an annual list drawn up by Transparency International.

[snip]

The remarkable fact is the clean line dividing Protestant nations and Catholic ones. The Protestants are all on top of the list.

[snip]

Catholic nations across the world tend to be more corrupt than Protestant nations.

[snip]

Every other Catholic nation is more corrupt than its Protestant neighbour. How can we explain this difference between two streams of Christianity?

[snip]

The sociologist Max Weber (died 1920) noticed the difference in prosperity levels between Protestant states (the US, UK and Germany) and Catholic ones (Argentina, Italy, Spain) of the same race. He concluded that the difference came from something he called the Protestant ethic. Protestants carried Christ’s message of doing good work to doing work well. Applied to capitalism, this message became doing honest, hard work.

[snip]

The other stream of Christianity resembling the Catholic faith is the Orthodox Church with its mystical elements. And its nations follow the same pattern as Catholics.

[snip]

Corruption is of two types. The first is transactional, where a bending or breaking of the rule is agreed upon and paid for. This is the common form of corruption. All nations are susceptible to it, because it hinges on the morality of individuals.

The second form of corruption is that where the act of corruption unfolds not from greed but opportunity.

This is the lower form, and more venal.

Here the transaction is forced, and the payer is unwilling and often on the right side of the law. Yet he must bribe because he is vulnerable. It could be to build a house, release a consignment from customs, collect a relative’s corpse from the morgue or collect an income-tax refund.

(Excerpt) Read more at livemint.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Eastern Religions; Mainline Protestant; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: corruption
Every other Catholic nation [except Luxembourg, Ireland and Austria] is more corrupt than its Protestant neighbour. How can we explain this difference between two streams of Christianity? ....[The sociologist Max Weber] concluded that the difference came from something he called the Protestant ethic. Protestants carried Christ’s message of doing good work to doing work well. Applied to capitalism, this message became doing honest, hard work.

....Corruption is of two types. The first is transactional, where a bending or breaking of the rule is agreed upon and paid for....[In the second form of corruption] the transaction is forced, and the payer is unwilling and often on the right side of the law. Yet he must bribe because he is vulnerable.

The color-coded map and all scores can be viewed here. Here are the specific countries (from least to most corrupt) mentioned in the article, where religious affiliations were mentioned:


1 posted on 01/14/2011 12:57:21 PM PST by Alex Murphy
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Comment #2 Removed by Moderator

To: Alex Murphy; marshmallow

Maybe you and marshmallow should challenge each other to see who can post the most negative articles about the Catholic Church in 24 hours...OH nevermind! .......you’re both are


3 posted on 01/14/2011 1:22:11 PM PST by notaliberal
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To: Alex Murphy
Thanks for taking the time to set up the link to the map and the list. I wonder if the distinction is as much a result of the organizational structure as it is what's taught by the different churches. The RCC is a hierarchy with a papal monarch. Protestant churches are either congregational in structure, or semi autonomous.
4 posted on 01/14/2011 1:27:55 PM PST by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: notaliberal

I know! Let’s start a Religious War on Free Republic where there wasn’t one before!

Line up, Orange and Green! Bombs away!

< / religious taunting >


5 posted on 01/14/2011 1:28:37 PM PST by Uncle Miltie (0bamanomics: Punish Success, Reward Failure. Destroying America is the point.)
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To: Alex Murphy
Your characterization of these nations, especially the European ones, as Catholic/protestant/Orthodox is a joke. They are agnostic or atheistic with small remnants of religious belief. Similar for South and Latin America.

The measure of your objectivity was taken and found wanting.

6 posted on 01/14/2011 1:33:07 PM PST by bronx2 (while Jesus is the Alpha /Omega He has given us rituals which you reject to obtain the graces as to)
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To: Alex Murphy

Calling Scandinavian countries Protestant is a bit of a stretch don’t you think?


7 posted on 01/14/2011 1:35:50 PM PST by Domalais
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To: Domalais
"Calling Scandinavian countries Protestant is a bit of a stretch don’t you think?"

Since when has "stretching" the truth ever been a problem on FR when it serves to smear the Church?

8 posted on 01/14/2011 1:47:21 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: Domalais; Alex Murphy
New Zealand, weekly church attendance 15%; 33% of citizens report no religious affiliation at all

Denmark, only 31% of citizens agree with the statement "I believe there is a God"; weekly church attendance under 10%

Sweden, only 23% of citizens agree with the statement "I believe there is a God"; Protestant Church of Sweden claims membership of 70% of the population, but only 2% of the CoS membership attends services weekly.

Sounds like the headline should be "formerly Protestant, now functionally atheist countries least corrupt".

9 posted on 01/14/2011 1:59:50 PM PST by Campion
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To: wmfights
Thanks for taking the time to set up the link to the map and the list. I wonder if the distinction is as much a result of the organizational structure as it is what's taught by the different churches.

You're welcome. I created the list in post #1, but the rankings are taken from Transparency.org (there were a handful of discrepancies with the livemint article), and the religious affiliations and quotes/excerpts are from the livemint article. Only those countries mentioned in the article, wherein a religious affiliation is named, were included in my list. I have no idea what methodology was used re assigning affiliation to a country.

10 posted on 01/14/2011 2:12:21 PM PST by Alex Murphy ("Posting news feeds, making eyes bleed, he's hated on seven continents")
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To: Alex Murphy

Actually, more Catholics in Canada and Switzerland.

I really don’t see how your conclusion bears out. 6,9,12,14,15 are all Catholic. That’s 5/15.

•6, Canada (majority Catholic)
•7, Netherlands (Protestant)
•8, Australia (Protestant)
•9, Switzerland (majority Catholic)
•10, Norway (Protestant)
•12, Luxembourg (Catholic)
•14, Ireland (Catholic)
•15 (tie), Austria (Catholic)
•15 (tie), Germany (Protestant)
•17 (tie), Barbados (Protestant)
•20, Britain (Protestant)
•21, Chile (Catholic)
•22 (tie), United States (Protestant)


11 posted on 01/14/2011 2:53:39 PM PST by BenKenobi (The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there)
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To: Alex Murphy

I believe in Germany at least....the Catholic State of Bavaria is the most prosperous.


12 posted on 01/14/2011 2:56:10 PM PST by Katya (Homo Nosce Te Ipsum)
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To: Alex Murphy

None of those countries are either Protestant nor Catholic. NONE.

I said it a million times, I doubt that of all the people who identify themselves as Catholics, that 1% really live Catholic lives. I DOUBT THAT 1% are real Catholics.

Birth control, fornication, divorce, adultery, immoral dress, never go to confession. No, there’s few Catholics left, one here one there.

When was the last time anyone saw a large Catholic family?


13 posted on 01/14/2011 2:59:22 PM PST by verdugo
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To: bronx2; Cronos; Alex Murphy

“Your characterization of these nations, especially the European ones...”

Actually looking at the successor states to the USSR cited, I’d say that someone on this thread needs to read more on the subject before thinking that religion is a determining factor.

I recommend Successor States to the USSR, John W. Blaney


14 posted on 01/14/2011 3:08:28 PM PST by OpusatFR
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To: Alex Murphy
I don't know why, but I couldn’t get the map the article was referring to until I saw the link in your post.
15 posted on 01/14/2011 3:12:34 PM PST by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: wmfights
I don't know why, but I couldn’t get the map the article was referring to until I saw the link in your post.

I couldn't either, which is why I tracked down the original and linked to it in post #1.

16 posted on 01/14/2011 3:33:57 PM PST by Alex Murphy ("Posting news feeds, making eyes bleed, he's hated on seven continents")
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To: verdugo
None of those countries are either Protestant nor Catholic. NONE. I said it a million times, I doubt that of all the people who identify themselves as Catholics, that 1% really live Catholic lives. I DOUBT THAT 1% are real Catholics. Birth control, fornication, divorce, adultery, immoral dress, never go to confession. No, there’s few Catholics left, one here one there. When was the last time anyone saw a large Catholic family?

You make an excellent point, and one that I agree with. I've echoed a similar argument re Protestants for years:

The Catholic Church is failing to stem the tide of immorality here in America. The creedally orthodox Protestant churches are failing as well. IMO we can argue all day regarding whose numbers are increasing or decreasing, but none of it matters if cultural rot is still the result. We are failing to be salt and light.
-- Alex Murphy, December 22 2008
I wouldn't (and don't) "blame the Catholics" for Obama's win. If anything, I blame the Protestant and Evangelical churches for Obama's win, via the Hispanic and Black "Protestant" votes. Our congregations are (apparently) far more racially divided than 2004's vote let on. Hispanic and Black "Protestant" voters went for Obama in almost opposite ratios to White Protestants. That's not something the Protestant/Evangelical church should be proud of....

....In short, I believe that Christians in 2008 have lost ground, and are now too small a minority to sway elections in and of themselves. We have become strangers in a foreign land (Exodus 2:22, cf Jeremiah 5:19). That's the real story coming out of these election results, in my honest opinion.
-- Alex Murphy, November 10 2008

I think there's a reason why we didn't make a difference in the overall vote, like we (supposedly) did in 2000 and 2004. Year-by-year census numbers show that the number of believing, practicing Christians in this country has been steadily declining for decades. I think we have finally shrunk to the level where we've lost any influence over the culture, morality, or politics at large. IMO that's what the 2008 vote demographics are saying.

We can't influence the ballot box, until we start changing the hearts and minds of the unbelievers among us. We'll remain a statistical oddity, "strangers in a foreign land" (Exodus 2:22, cf Jeremiah 5:19), until we increase our numbers (and I don't mean simply filling seats in the pews). We Protestants and Evangelicals need to take the Great Commission and all Ten Commandments seriously again.
-- Alex Murphy, November 7 2008


17 posted on 01/14/2011 4:08:30 PM PST by Alex Murphy ("Posting news feeds, making eyes bleed, he's hated on seven continents")
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To: Alex Murphy

If we rank them on things such as legalized prostitution and devaluing traditional marriage, the list would pretty much be the same, eh?


18 posted on 01/14/2011 4:24:08 PM PST by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
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To: notaliberal
It seems to me that there is a large difference between Christian and non Christian countries. Most of the countries that are considered “Orthodox” on the list are more likely atheist because of 60 plus years of Communist indoctrination. Similarly Muslim countries and pagan countries in Africa do not do well.
19 posted on 01/14/2011 4:39:05 PM PST by marktwain
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To: bronx2

>>They are agnostic or atheistic with small remnants of religious belief.

I was thinking the same thing. I would be interested in comparing corruption rates among nations in relation to frequency of church attendance or tithing.


20 posted on 01/14/2011 7:26:24 PM PST by TheDingoAteMyBaby
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To: Alex Murphy; bronx2; OpusatFR; wmfights; Katya; BenKenobi
What is funny is 7, Netherlands (Protestant), whereas According to the CIA World Factbook,[3] as of 2002 the religious makeup of the Netherlands was 31% Roman Catholic, 13% Dutch Reformed, 7% Calvinist, 5.5% Muslim, 2.5% other and 41% none.

hence the Netherlands is technically more Catholic rather than Protestant

And in Canada according to the CIA fact book Roman Catholic 42.6%, Protestant 23.3% (including United Church 9.5%, Anglican 6.8%, Baptist 2.4%, Lutheran 2%), other Christian 4.4%, so Canada and the Netherlands are both more Catholic than Protestant

Next, Switzerland and from the CIA fact book again Roman Catholic 41.8%, Protestant 35.3%, Muslim 4.3%, Orthodox 1.8%, other Christian -- Catholic, 42%, and Protestant 36%....

Finally, as Katya pointed out, in Germany the most prosperous states are Bavaria and Swabia, both either majority Catholic or largely Catholic, while the poorest part is Eastern Germany which is mostly Protestant.

As you can see in E.Germany's case and others, the branch of Christianity is more coincidental than otherwise.

If one pushes back the envelope to just before the industrial revolution, say 1770, we see that the Catholic countries from Spain, Portugal, France, Austria-Hungary, Bavaria, Poland-lithuania etc are the wealthier.

But then something happens that not only affects the Catholic south and Central Europe but also parts of north Europe like the Netherlands (they never re-captured their glory days of the 1600s) and bypasses the UK which enters it's golden era.

What is it? In my opinion it was revolutionary France and those ideas combined with raising the nation ABOVE God that hit continental Europe.

I see a direct line between the french Revolution and the October 1917 revolution right down to the EU
21 posted on 01/14/2011 9:13:22 PM PST by Cronos (Bobby Jindal 2012)
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To: Alex Murphy
"none of it matters if cultural rot is still the result. " --> correct. And in my opinion that rot ties in to the cable of evil that we all have in our houses and to which those who are connected are all now increasingly slaves to (Catholic, Protestant, Moslem, Hindu, all now worship the glowing screen).

I take one case -- HOMOSEXUALITY and the serial "Friends". Don't get me wrong, I like the show, but I can see both in myself and in conservative friends (Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox) how it has subtly affected our stances by showing a gay couple as "ok", "normal". And this was not as extreme as Will&Grace, but you get my meaning on how this show "Friends" affected us. I believe that it also affected societies "sleeping around" and let's live together before marriage ideas, but I have no observations of that as that didn't affect my friends or me:)
22 posted on 01/14/2011 9:18:20 PM PST by Cronos (Bobby Jindal 2012)
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To: Alex Murphy

That link isn’t working for me.


23 posted on 01/15/2011 11:00:13 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Alex Murphy; wagglebee; Natural Law; Judith Anne
Alex -- your statements that you see the Church as allies of conservative are not shown in the posts you post. A Catholic in chatanooga gets drunk and you find that and post it, a Catholic in Coimbatore kicks a stone and it hits a cow, and you find it and post it.

This persistent playing on small faults of individuals serves only secularists, athiests and Islamists. you may believe it helps the PCA/OPC but it does not

Furthermore, even if you compare the PCA/OPC combine versus Catholicism in numbers: PCA/OPC together = 300,000, Catholics IN THE USA alone, 60 million odd, that's about 200 times the number of PCA/OPC, so 200 times more likely for a few to make a mistake. Furthermore, the tight press control of the PCA/OPC is impossible in The Church of 1 billion. So your posts from a tiny org are hardly "balanced" in any way.

You may not like it, but the Catholic Church is viewed as the hall-mark of Christianity in the non-Christian world. When a non-Catholic pastor of 12 in the US threatens to burn the bible in the US, Catholic Churchs in Pakistan, India, Nigeria, Iraq are attacked. The PCA doesn't exist outside the US and the Catholic Church does -- spreading the gospel in Asia, Americas and Africa and now Europe again. And your statements that you want some kind of solidarity, I'm sorry, ring hollow
24 posted on 01/16/2011 10:13:40 PM PST by Cronos (Bobby Jindal 2012)
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To: Alex Murphy

I don’t deny that you may very well believe what you say, but honestly, your thread posting history gives a different impression. It’s one thing to disagree with us on doctrine, but to keep posting every little fault made by every Catholic in some obscure town is quite a different thing and gives the impression which is quite opposite to your statements, unfortunately.


25 posted on 01/16/2011 11:28:59 PM PST by Cronos (Bobby Jindal 2012)
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To: Alex Murphy
I find it very interesting that the most corrupt nations on the planet; the predominantly Protest countries of sub Saharan Africa and the Islamic nations are not mentioned in the summarized list.

Even more interesting was the deletion of my initial post #2 pointing this out.

26 posted on 01/17/2011 6:10:00 AM PST by Natural Law
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To: Alex Murphy

Australia is actually a majority Catholic country, given vast Irish and Italian immigration.


27 posted on 01/14/2014 3:17:34 PM PST by littlemermaid
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To: littlemermaid
Australia is actually a majority Catholic country, given vast Irish and Italian immigration

Welcome to Free Republic! What led you to post on this exactly-three-year-old thread today?

littlemermaid
Since Jan 14, 2014

28 posted on 01/14/2014 3:37:26 PM PST by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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