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The Not So Secret Rapture
reformed.org ^ | W. Fred Rice

Posted on 01/14/2011 5:57:52 PM PST by topcat54

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To: metmom; RegulatorCountry; left that other site; RJR_fan; Lee N. Field
Genesis 12:1-3 Now the LORD said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

Yes, and?

“I will bless those who bless you” is plainly a reference to Abraham and his Seed, in whom all the nations of the earth will be blessed. It is not a reference to the modern Jews or the secular state of Israel.

Did your prophecy teachers tell you something different?

101 posted on 01/15/2011 8:40:49 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: topcat54

...and, not so much ignored as butchered, as they like to quote the ‘thief in the night’ part but omit the following reference to the earth and heaven being destroyed. There is no way anyone lives on this earth after the thief in the night comes.


102 posted on 01/15/2011 8:41:58 AM PST by spacejunkie01
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To: topcat54; RegulatorCountry; left that other site; RJR_fan; Lee N. Field

You can keep your anti-Israel stand.

Fortunate for you this is the RF.


103 posted on 01/15/2011 8:47:36 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: spacejunkie01
"The point is, believers will be protected during the tribulation but they will not be removed. We don’t leave until Christ’s real, loud, visual return and that’s where he destroys everything, except us.

Amen!

104 posted on 01/15/2011 8:50:08 AM PST by Vegasrugrat
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To: metmom

Why is he anti Israel?


105 posted on 01/15/2011 8:51:15 AM PST by spacejunkie01
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To: Quix
WHY IS IT that most of the more combative REPLACEMENTARIANS like the most combative RC’s are soooooooooooo thin-skinned, prickry, stuffed-up, OB-COM, haughty, prissy, self-righteous, irrational, shallow, control-phreaqued, foot-stamping, constricted pontificators on FR?

This is called "projection".

106 posted on 01/15/2011 9:11:05 AM PST by Lee N. Field (Dispensational exegesis not supported by an a-, post- or historic pre-mil scholar will be ignored.)
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To: metmom
In reading Revelation there is continual reference to those left on the earth not repenting of their sin, and wehn [sic] God destroys Babylon, it’s for the evil in it.

What other reason do you propose for God poring [sic] out judgment on the earth? The fun of it? He has nothing better to do?


He probably doesn't, and what better thing could he be doing than this? The heavens and earth are told to rejoice in this single hour of destruction. I don't think God is going to be saying, "You know, I told everyone to rejoice in this, but I really didn't enjoy doing that at all." He will derive great pleasure in thoroughly kicking the ass of Evil. Besides, all that comes after the great tribulation and John seeing those who gave their lives for the Lamb during the tribulation. Again, we have an example of an extra-biblical teaching (pre-trib rapture) being used to contextualize things in scripture and then those contextualizations being used to reinterpret other parts of scripture and see things that just are not there, ie, "those left on the earth" if, by that, you mean "those left behind after the pretribulation rapture" because even during that time after the great tribulation and right up to the destruction of Babylon, there are faithful believers on the earth (Rev 18:4).

There is one way that what Jesus warned about the period of great tribulation could also encompass the bowl judgments of God. I'll see if you can spot it. It depends on whether Jesus was being literal with his superlatives or using that as a way of saying "it's going to be really, really bad so be forewarned" or was being very specific with his categories (tribulation being something distinct from judgment). Either way, though, he warned believers that they would be going through it and that God would be watching out for them (Mt 24:22).
107 posted on 01/15/2011 9:15:23 AM PST by aruanan
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To: metmom; RegulatorCountry; left that other site; RJR_fan; Lee N. Field
You can keep your anti-Israel stand.

Nice dodge. Gen. 12 says nothing about modern Israel. For you to use it as an excuse to bash folks who don't share your odd eschatology is unwarranted.

Besides, I'm not “anti-Israel.” I'm anti the prophecy pimps who use modern Israel as a pawn to prop up their aberrant theology. Your only real objection is that I don't swallow hook line and sinker your theology.

I don't confuse what you teach with what the Bible teaches.

108 posted on 01/15/2011 9:21:06 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: Lee N. Field; Alamo-Girl; Amityschild; AngieGal; AnimalLover; Ann de IL; aposiopetic; aragorn; ...
Wellllllllllllllllllllllll:

Photobucket

It is difficult to observe someone claming to be a Christian post such false, unmitigatedly outrageously wrong HOGWASH.

I've documented the inaccuracy, wrongness, falseness etc. of your assertion about Stan's clearance before.

My own clearance was TOPSECRET CRYPTO. I'm not ignorant of clearances.

My relative with an extremely high clearance asserted that there are at least 30 or some such clearances above TOP SECRET.

Your assertion is GROSSLY MISLEADING.

Technically--in terms of the commonly known clearances, they go from CONFIDENTIAL, through SECRET to TOP SECRET.

What you fail to acknowledge, is that in many cases, most cases, ABOVE TOP SECRET, THE CLEARANCES AND THEIR LABELS ARE CLASSIFIED themselves--though many have been outted. Further, that they are hyphenated in some sense technically though in use they are not.

That is they are TOP SECRET--SPECIAL ACCESS/______ EYES ONLY. e.g. CINCPAC's EYES ONLY, PRESIDENT'S EYES ONLY etc. Anyone who thinks that PRESIDENT'S EYES ONLY is

!NOT! "ABOVE" mere TOP SECRET

IS

Either grossly uninformed, unaware, ignorant, deliberately deceptive, clueless and/or outrageously perverse in playing some idiotic game.

Certainly everyone handling such materials knows better. As do those who lock you in prison for treating them equal to TOP SECRET.

This website gives very basic information on such:
.
http://www.clearancejobs.com/security_clearance_faq.pdf

to wit from there:

What is a “special access authorization?” Access to classified defense information is based on an appropriate level of security clearance (Confidential, Secret or Top Secret) and a “need-to-know.” Need-to-know can be either a formal or an informal determination.

All classified defense information exists within one of these two “need-to-know” domains— formal or informal. Information that exists within the domain of informal need-to-know determinations is referred to as “collateral classified” information. Information that requires a formal need-to-know determination (also known as a special access authorization) exists within Special Access Programs (SAP) and Sensitive Compartmented Information (SCI).

Acronyms such as ATOMAL, CNWDI, COMSEC, COSMIC, CRYPTO, NOFORN, ORCON, SAP, SCI, SIOP-ESI, SPECAT, SIOP-ESI, etc., are not clearances. They are categories of classified information, some of which have extra need-to-know restrictions or require special access authorizations.
For example,
COSMIC stands for “Control of Secret Material in an International Command.” COSMIC Top Secret is the term used for NATO Top Secret Information. There are many such markings stamped or printed on classified material, but most are only acronyms denoting special administrative handling procedures.
[IN FUNCTION AND IN THE MINDS, CONVERSATIONS AND HANDLING OF SUCH MATERIALS by the people who do it--COSMIC etc. designations ARE CONSIDERED TO BE HIGHER in CLEARANCE AUTHORIZATION than those without such HIGHER level authorization.

And, if the category is particularly sensitive, another investigation is implemented to obtain the "HIGHER" clearance authorization.]

How can I be granted Sensitive Compartmented Information (SCI) access?

No one is actually granted SCI access, since SCI encompasses several categories of compartmented information. People are granted eligibility for SCI access. Once this eligibility has been established, a person can be granted a special access authorization for a specific category of information within SCI. In order to be considered for SCI access, a cleared individual must first be nominated for an SCI billet and approved by the government agency that controls the information.

What is a Special Access Program (SAP)?

A SAP is defined as: "a program established for a specific class of classified information that imposes safeguarding and access requirements that exceed those normally required for information at the same classification level." Technically, SCI is a SAP. Some SAPs are referred to as "black" programs; the very existence of which can be classified.

This page from the above doc would give the impression that your outrageously false assertion was correct:

What are the security clearance levels? Security clearances can be issued by many United States government agencies, including the Department of Defense (DoD), the Department of Homeland Security, the Department of Energy (DoE), the Department of Justice, and the Central Intelligence Agency. DoE clearances include the “L,” and “Q” levels. DoD issues more than 80% of all clearances. There are three levels of DoD security clearances:
• Confidential
• Secret
• Top Secret.

.

However, as I've noted, anyone that thinks that CINCPAC EYES ONLY level clearance etc. are NOT FUNCTIONALLY "HIGHER" than a garden variety TOP SECRET is uninformed, clueless, or enjoys playing some sort of strange game of deception.

The Wiki article from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_clearance

Sheds a bit more light on it:

Security assessment/clearances

Individuals who require access to more sensitive information (or access to sensitive federal government sites and/or assets) because of their job will be required to sign the Security Clearance Form (TBS/SCT 330-60e). There are three basic levels of clearance:

  • Confidential (Level 1)
    • In addition to the RS checks, foreign employments, immediate relatives, and marriages/common-law relationships must be declared and be screened.
    • This level of clearance will grant the right to access designated and classified information up to Confidential level on a need-to-know basis. Department Head have the discretion to allow for an individual to access Secret level information without higher level clearance on a case-to-case basis.
  • Secret (Level 2)
    • Same as Confidential.
    • This level of clearance will grant the right to access designated and classified information up to Secret level on a need-to-know basis. Department Heads have the discretion to allow for an individual to access Top Secret-level information without higher-level clearance on a case-to-case basis.
  • Top Secret (Level 3)
    • In addition to the checks at the Secret level, foreign travels, assets, and character references must be given. Field check will also be conducted prior to granting the clearance.
    • This level of clearance will grant the right to access all designated and classified information on a need-to-know basis.
[edit] Site access

An additional category called 'Site Access' exists not for access to information purposes but for those that require physical access to sites or facilities designated by CSIS as areas "reasonably be expected to be targeted by those who engage in activities constituting threats to the security of Canada". Designated areas include Government Houses, official residences of government officials, Parliament, nuclear facilities, airport restricted areas, maritime ports, and any large-scale events that are sponsored by the federal government (e.g., 2010 Winter Olympics).[4] The checks conducted are similar to those of a Confidential clearance.Hierarchy

A security clearance is, in general, granted to a particular level of clearance. The exception to this is levels above compartmentalized access, when an individual is given access to a particular type of data. The President of the United States must legally be given access to any government or military information he or she requests, even if he or she would not otherwise be able to obtain a security clearance were he or she not the President.

[edit] Controlled Unclassified Information

This is not a clearance, but rather a level at which information distribution is controlled. Controlled Unclassified is information that may be illegal to distribute. This information is available when needed by government employees such as Department of Defense (DoD) employees. It should not, however, be redistributed. An example of the type of information that may be controlled at this level is the operational details of a non-critical system.[citation needed]

[edit] Confidential

Also known as a "public trust" clearance, this is the simplest security clearance to get. This level typically requires a few weeks to a few months of investigation. A Confidential clearance requires a NACLC investigation which dates back 7 years on the person's record and must be renewed (with another investigation) every 15 years. Applicants are required to complete federal Standard Form 85P ([7])

[edit] Secret

A Secret clearance, also known as Collateral Secret or Ordinary Secret, requires a few months to a year to fully investigate, depending on the individual's background. Some instances wherein individuals would take longer than normal to be investigated are many past residences, having residences in foreign countries, having relatives outside the United States, or significant ties with non-US citizens. Unpaid bills as well as criminal charges will more than likely disqualify an applicant for approval. However, a Bankruptcy will be evaluated on a case-by-case basis and is not an automatic dis-qualifier. Poor financial history is the number-one cause of rejection, and foreign activities and criminal record are also common causes for disqualification. A Secret clearance requires a National Agency Check, a Local Agency Check, and a Credit investigation; it must also be re-investigated every 10 years.[8] Investigative requirements for DoD clearances, which apply to most civilian contractor situations, are contained in the Personnel Security Program issuance known as DoD Regulation 5200-R, at part C3.4.2

[edit] Top Secret

Top Secret is a more stringent clearance. A Top Secret, or "TS", clearance, is often given as the result of a Single Scope Background Investigation, or SSBI. Top Secret clearances, in general, afford one access to data that affects national security, counterterrorism/counterintelligence, or other highly sensitive data. There are far fewer individuals with TS clearances than Secret clearances.[citation needed] A TS clearance can take as few as 3–6 months to obtain, but more often takes 6–18 months, while sometimes taking up to 3 years to obtain.[citation needed] The SSBI must be renewed every 5 years.

[edit] Compartmented Information

As with TS clearances, Sensitive Compartmented Information (SCI) clearances are assigned only after one has been through the rigors of a Single Scope Background Investigation and a special adjudication process for evaluating the investigation. SCI access, however, is assigned only in "compartments." See Compartmentalization (intelligence). These compartments are necessarily separated from each other with respect to organization, so an individual with access to one compartment will not necessarily have access to another.[citation needed] Each compartment may include its own additional special requirements and clearance process. An individual may be granted access, or read into to a compartment for an extended or only short period of time.

A representative list of kinds of information that may require compartmented access, without using specific national terminology, includes:

Such compartmentalized clearances may be expressed as "John has a TS/SCI", whereby all clearance descriptors are spelled out verbally. For example, The US National Security Agency used to use specialized terms such as "Umbra",[9][10][11] This classification is reported to be a compartment within the "Special Intelligence" compartment of SCI.[12] The various NSA compartments have been simplified; all but the most sensitive compartments are marked "CCO", meaning "handle through COMINT channels only".

The US Department of Defense establishes, separately from intelligence compartments, special access programs (SAP) when vulnerability of specific information is exceptional and the normal criteria for determining eligibility for access applicable to information classified at the same level are not deemed sufficient to protect the information from unauthorized disclosure. The number of people cleared for access to such programs is typically kept low. Information about stealth technology, for example, often requires such access.References

  1. ^ a b Personnel Security Standard
  2. ^ Guide to the Audit of Security - March 2004
  3. ^ a b Security Policy-Manager's Handbook
  4. ^ CSIS Security Screening
  5. ^ Security of Information Act
  6. ^ ISM Chapter 2 Part I
  7. ^ http://www.opm.gov/Forms/pdf_fill/sf85p.pdf
  8. ^ [1]
  9. ^ "NSA Bibliographies". NSA Bibliographies. 2007-09-27. http://www.thememoryhole.org/nsa/bibs.htm. 
  10. ^ "William H. Payne v. National Security Agency". William H. Payne v. National Security Agency. 2007-09-27. http://cryptome.org/nsa-codeword.htm. 
  11. ^ "US Spying on Indian Nuclear Scientists". The NSA has been spying on Indian nuclear scientists by tapping phone conversations. 2007-09-27. http://www.subcontinent.com/sapra/research/nuclear/nuclear20000619a.htm. 
  12. ^ "National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 24". Declassified documents and Archive publications on U.S. Intelligence. 2007-09-27. http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB23/index2.htm. 
  13. ^ Tyler, Jeff (2006-11-17). "Private spooks for hire". http://marketplace.publicradio.org/shows/2006/11/17/PM200611178.html. Retrieved 2009-01-10. 
  14. ^ Associated Press (2007-03-25). "Security Clearance a Valued Resume Credential". Fox News. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,261120,00.html. Retrieved 2009-01-10. 
  15. ^ Willing, Richard (2007-02-14). "White House looks for faster top-secret clearances". USA Today. http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-02-14-top-secret-clearances_x.htm. Retrieved 2009-01-10. 
  16. ^ Merle, Renae (2006-02-09). "Security Clearances Can Pay Off". The Washington Post. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/08/AR2006020802348.html. Retrieved 2010-05-23. 
  17. ^ "Security Clearance Guidelines: Foreign Preference". military.about.com. http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/security/blforeignpref.htm. Retrieved 2007-05-15. 
  18. ^ Arthur L. Money (16 August 2000). "Guidance to DoD Central Adjudication Facilities (CAF) Clarifying the Application of the Foreign preference Adjucitative Guideline" (pdf). http://www.dod.mil/dodgc/doha/policyinterpmemo.pdf. Retrieved 2007-05-15.  (the "Money Memorandum")
  19. ^ ISCR Case No. 02-21102

.

Most garden variety TOP SECRET clearances do not require a polygraph etc.

Many HIGHER clearances DO require a polygraph exam.

I assure you that my relative's clearance allowing access to nuclerar testing activities and within sight of UFO type craft coming and going routinely, DID REQUIRE significantly increased investigation common for HIGHER clearances.

PLEASE--Continue spreading false understandings, impressions and assertions if you wish. It helps greatly to undermine your perspective's credibility wholesale.

ESSENTIALLY, THE FACT REMAINS THAT:

THOSE WHO WORK WITH
Security Clearances daily
Talk AS and refer to
security clearances for
SPECIAL ACCESS CATEGORIES
AS
"HIGHER"
than
categories which do NOT require
SPECIAL MORE RESTRICTED NEED TO KNOW

Anyone calling such HIGHER category clearances EQUAL to a garden variety TOP SECRET clearance would be considered an ignorant, uninformed, clueless soul.

May God have mercy if your assertions cause folks to believe a deception and suffer loss accordingly.

109 posted on 01/15/2011 9:23:14 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Lee N. Field
Photobucket

BBBBBBBBBZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZTTTTTTT

TERMINALLY WRONG

yet again!

110 posted on 01/15/2011 9:27:51 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: metmom
Fortunate for you this is the RF.

Why?

111 posted on 01/15/2011 9:28:15 AM PST by Lee N. Field (Dispensational exegesis not supported by an a-, post- or historic pre-mil scholar will be ignored.)
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To: Quix; raynearhood
It is difficult to observe someone claming to be a Christian post such false, unmitigatedly outrageously wrong HOGWASH.

I've documented the inaccuracy, wrongness, falseness etc. of your assertion about Stan's clearance before.

My own clearance was TOPSECRET CRYPTO.I'm not ignorant of clearances.

Yeah, whatever.


112 posted on 01/15/2011 9:33:46 AM PST by Lee N. Field (Dispensational exegesis not supported by an a-, post- or historic pre-mil scholar will be ignored.)
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To: Lee N. Field

It keeps me from saying something I’ll regret later.


113 posted on 01/15/2011 9:38:49 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Lee N. Field
Come on Lee. Don't you know that we have a genuine war hero on our hands? No wonder he tips to the left.


114 posted on 01/15/2011 9:40:51 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Lee N. Field

Thanks

for confirming the wisdom in adjusting my assessment of various

uhhhhh qualities . . . and criteria

several basement floors lower.

Accuracy can be important in critical situations.


115 posted on 01/15/2011 9:42:00 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: metmom; Lee N. Field
It keeps me from saying something I’ll regret later.

If you spoke the truth in love -- rather than only offering drive by, out of context Scripture quotes -- there would be nothing to regret.

116 posted on 01/15/2011 9:45:06 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: Lee N. Field

BTW,

I do appreciate the wimpy response

to the substantive documentation.


117 posted on 01/15/2011 9:56:51 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: MarkBsnr

Has

SPREADING FALSE WITNESS

become another

Vatican Alice In Wonderland School of Theology and Reality Mangling

daily religious obligation and dogma?


118 posted on 01/15/2011 9:58:01 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Lee N. Field; topcat54; metmom
When Religion Forum posters take the view that Israel is no longer God's chosen people or particularly blessed of God then I ask the posters to state their views towards Jews and races or genealogies because that particular belief is held by Christian Identity and other white supremacist groups, none of which are tolerated at all on Free Republic.

Another "red flag" is when the poster claims that the word "Adam" means white.

119 posted on 01/15/2011 9:58:23 AM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: topcat54; metmom

I gather

hypocrisy

is not in REPLACEMENTARIANS’

daffynitionary?


120 posted on 01/15/2011 9:59:05 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Religion Moderator; Lee N. Field; topcat54; metmom
When Religion Forum posters take the view that Israel is no longer God's chosen people or particularly blessed of God then I ask the posters to state their views towards Jews and races or genealogies because that particular belief is held by Christian Identity and other white supremacist groups, none of which are tolerated at all on Free Republic.

It is no secret that my views are essentially those of the vast majority of non-dispensational Christians for 2000 years, and that is how I have represented them on this forum for the last decade.

The “God's chosen people or particularly blessed of God” wrt modern Israel view is the new kid on the block, in my opinion.

See Not Replacement...Expansion!

121 posted on 01/15/2011 10:06:34 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: topcat54

Posting Scripture IS posting TRUTH in love. It is not drive by posting.

Israel is God’s chosen people. That has not been rescinded.

If you think it has been rescinded or that Israel is no longer God’s chosen people, state where in the Bible that occurred; book, chapter, and verse.

All the nations of the earth have indeed been blessed through Abraham, the fulfillment of which is in Jesus, the seed of Abraham.

I don’t regret posting Scripture to support my view.

There is nothing else to regret because I didn’t tell anyone what I was thinking.


122 posted on 01/15/2011 10:08:03 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: topcat54
Israel is Israel.

Making the distinction between the OT and *modern* Israel is.......


123 posted on 01/15/2011 10:10:41 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
Posting Scripture IS posting TRUTH in love. It is not drive by posting.

It is if you can explain how it supports your positions. Otherwise it's just a drive by.

Now, perhaps you can explain how Gen. 12 is speaking of modern Israel as opposed to Abraham, the father of many nations.

I don’t regret posting Scripture to support my view.

I'm sure. When will you start?

124 posted on 01/15/2011 10:11:38 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: metmom; topcat54
Israel is God’s chosen people. That has not been rescinded.

I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.

But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable."
--Romans 11
125 posted on 01/15/2011 10:14:44 AM PST by aruanan
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To: metmom
Israel is God’s chosen people.

Israel of the New Testament is not a physical nation, it is the invisible nation of believers in Jesus Christ, regardless of race or origin of nation.

God Bless

126 posted on 01/15/2011 10:16:36 AM PST by Vegasrugrat
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To: metmom; Lee N. Field
Israel is Israel.

Hardly.

But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, (Rom. 9:6)

Making the distinction between the OT and *modern* Israel is.......

Totally justified.

Biblical Israel vs. Modern Israel

Here are some characteristics of Biblical Israel that modern Israel does not share. The absence of these characteristics proves that modern Israel is in no sense related to Biblical Israel, therefore it cannot be a fulfillment of any biblical prophecies.

  1. Biblical Israel was established as part of the covenant made with Abraham and the promises made with the Seed, Jesus Christ. (Gen. 12:7; 13:15; 24:7; Gal. 3:16)
  2. Inclusion in Biblical Israel was by vow and obedience to God’s covenant, not strictly by lineage. (Gen. 17:23; Lev. 18:26; Rom. 2:28,29; 9:6,7)
  3. Biblical Israel was identified as a nation when they corporately vowed to abide by the law of God as given through Moses. (Exo. 19:8)
  4. Disobedience to the law of God was reason for individual excommunication from the nation of Israel, and temporal corporate punishment. (Exo. 12:15; Lev. 7:27; Lev. 18:29; Deut. 28:15)
  5. Biblical Israel was governed by God-ordained representatives in the church (the priesthood with respect to the ceremonial) and the state (elders, judges, and kings with respect to the civil) as a single and unique kingdom under God. (Lev. 13:2; Deut. 17:9; 19:12; 21:19)
  6. The judges of Biblical Israel was chosen directly by God. (Luke 22:30; James 1:1)
  7. Biblical Israel could have its nationhood status revoked through disobedience. (Matt. 21:43; John 11:48)
  8. The older covenant was never intended by God to be permanent, but was seen as giving way to a new covenant. (Jer. 31:31; Matt. 26:28; Heb. 8:13; 9:15; 12:24)
  9. For Biblical Israel the law was seen as a tutor to Christ, not as a means of salvation. (Matt. 23:23; Luke 24:44; Rom. 3:20; Gal. 3:24)
  10. Faith and repentance always preceded Biblical Israel’s physical restoration and blessing. (1 Kings 8:47,48; Ezra 1:5; Jer. 27:22)
  11. Restoration is clearly seen as an act of divine intervention, even by the nations. (Ezra 1:1; Ezekiel 37:4)
  12. Faithfulness to God in our day is measured by a proper relationship to the new covenant, not to rabbinic traditions. (Matt. 5:20; 16:6; Luke 1:72; Rom. 11:27; 2 Cor. 3:6)
  13. Modern Israel does not inhabit the land of promise. (Gen. 15:13)
  14. Modern Israel is a large debtor nation.  The ratio of public debt to GDP is higher in Israel than in the US. Biblical Israel was to lend to others.  (Deut. 15:6)

127 posted on 01/15/2011 10:22:26 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: Quix; All
Having read the majority of the postings to this thread, I see little clarification as to the facts of the Bible. Rather a good deal of time spent either insulting, denigrating or otherwise dissing each other.
When there are basic areas where God left it intentionally (it seems) vague or even hidden ... it is for a purpose. Either he does not want us to know until He opens our eyes to it ... in its time; or we are usurping His position and are athwart with His Word. God's Will, will Be of this we can be certain. Why do we believe He said to trust Him?

Is this discussion done in/with love for each other held in mind and answers created in such a way as to be kind and show loving intentions?

Sorry for butting into this discussion; it seems more like enemies that brothers. MOO

128 posted on 01/15/2011 10:28:30 AM PST by geologist (The only answer to the troubles of this life is Jesus. A decision we all must make.)
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To: Lee N. Field
Yeah, whatever.

Wouldn't be the first time a nut job has been granted a security clearance.

129 posted on 01/15/2011 10:37:00 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: geologist

Feel free.

Good points.

However, WHEN I find folks seriously interested in genuine dialogue of a civil sort, I’m happy to rise to the occasion.

When folks seem to be primarily interested in making

ALMIGHTY GOD out to be a liar

and seemingly addictively prone to spewing nonsense to demonized deceptive tripe, I have decreasing patience with such and feel more than a little comfortable telling it like it is, from my perspective.

And today, I have a list of other priorities as well.


130 posted on 01/15/2011 10:46:40 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: topcat54; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; ...
Wouldn't be the first time a nut job has been granted a security clearance.

THANKS for your very personalized labeling of me.

It's quite an honor coming from your level of awareness, paradoxically, of course.

131 posted on 01/15/2011 10:50:40 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: topcat54
Photobucket

132 posted on 01/15/2011 10:52:26 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix
Has SPREADING FALSE WITNESS become another Vatican Alice In Wonderland School of Theology and Reality Mangling daily religious obligation and dogma?

No, but repeated unsubstantiated and dubious claims are met with, shall we say, doubt until proven. That is why so many claims of the children of the Reformation are met with the reaction that they are by Christians. If you have proofs, lay them out. Unsubstantiated claims are met with various responses which may include ridicule and derision. I have never ridiculed a claim made by you that has been substantiated, now, have I?

133 posted on 01/15/2011 10:56:31 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: ReformedBeckite
I'm always hesitant to have any conversation with anyone that proudly proclaims they have the truth, let alone some one who might humbly proclaim it.....kind of makes one suspicious of them all.

You stay in your hesitancy and suspicious nature and I'll stay in TRUTH proudly; yet with humility. I see no problem with it. After all, according to Scripture, it will be like that for eternity.

Praise God! Thank You, Jesus! It's ALL about JESUS!
134 posted on 01/15/2011 10:57:33 AM PST by presently no screen name
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To: MarkBsnr; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; ...

Uhhhhh.

UNSUBSTANTIATED CLAIMS

has long been the virtually exclusive turf

of

The Vatican Alice In Wonderland School of Theology and Reality Mangling

. . . particularly on FR.

. . . . claiming existence prior to 300AD

. . . claiming Mary’s asencion

. . . claiming Mary’s farcical perpetual virginity

. . . claiming Jesus exited Mary’s womb leaving her hymen intact

. . . claiming Mary is Queen of Heaven.

. . . claiming that Salvation can be had only through Mary’s agency

. . . claiming Mary shares hypostatic union with the Godhead’

. . . yada yada yada . . . the farcical fantasies spewed as fact never seem to end.


135 posted on 01/15/2011 11:01:35 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: presently no screen name

INDEED.

THE LION OF JUDAH

AIN’T NO WIMP

regardless of being infinitely humble.


136 posted on 01/15/2011 11:02:32 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix

AMEN!


137 posted on 01/15/2011 11:05:37 AM PST by presently no screen name
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To: Quix
Uhhhhh. UNSUBSTANTIATED CLAIMS has long been the virtually exclusive turf of The Vatican Alice In Wonderland School of Theology and Reality Mangling

Either put up, or as the saying goes, shut up. You claimed security clearance. You have made many claims which make Joseph Smith look like a piker. I have yet to see any proofs at all. If we could believe you, your abode abuts the Grand Central Station of Galactic alien traffic and the Vatican and most of the world governments and large companies and NGOs are conniving with them in order to enslave the human race.

You make claim after claim after claim and get all indignant when anyone actually calls you out for any proof whatsoever. Grand conspiracy theories are linked to individuals' articles and websites who clearly have no presence in reality whatsoever. Why don't you link to somebody who doesn't eat a steady diet of either Lithium or street pharmaceutals?

The fault is yours. Your presentation and arguments consist of multicoloured and multifonted blather, or articles from people that are not stable enough to mow your lawn on a sunny day. You claim to be in academia. Very well. Present a paper on a thread that would be analagous to a doctoral thesis and let us see your proofs. Convince me.

138 posted on 01/15/2011 11:12:44 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: topcat54; metmom
I'm anti the prophecy pimps

And we read what you are pimping.

Nice dodge. Gen. 12 says nothing about modern Israel.

God never changes. Praise God! The Father of Abraham, Issac and Jacob!
139 posted on 01/15/2011 11:20:02 AM PST by presently no screen name
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To: Quix; All
Many repeat what they were taught, in a kind of faith and hope: it is true and it is the ground they are standing upon. They defend it valiantly, perhaps due to fear of change or fear of being mislead, or fear they do not have the truth. It is complex and many are more insecure than others. It is my hope and intent to not weaken a brother or cause them to become dispirited or confused.

God is in them and will open their eyes as they are ready for knowledge and growth. They will be spending time in His Word if they are seeking in trruth.

Perhaps I am being simplistic but I trust God to be Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent, and He will enlighten all who in truth seek to know Him.

Blessed be the LORD!

140 posted on 01/15/2011 11:22:56 AM PST by geologist (The only answer to the troubles of this life is Jesus. A decision we all must make.)
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To: presently no screen name
God never changes.  

  I wish I had a nickel for every time that truth has been abused to support some questionable teaching. 

141 posted on 01/15/2011 11:29:43 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: MarkBsnr; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; ...
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh besss dem poh put-upon Rabid Clique RC's.

Please someone, quick, put some sugar in the center of a white hanky and tie a string around it so they can suck on it.

At least give them some pats on their pointy tearful heads.

Photobucket

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh playing the Stations

Of The Stations Of The White Hanky

cards again! Sooooooooooooo impressive!

1. Icon to bearing false witness 2. Black/white icon of duplicity, double standard dance 3. The icon to the doctrine of--when all else fails--kill the messenger. 4. Icon to chronically changing the subject 5. Icon of obfuscations to the supreme degree 6. Icon of the rubber bible 7. Icon of the rubber history texts 8. Icon of the rubber daffynitionary 9. Icon of the rubber logic text 10. Icon of hubris to the supreme degree 11. Groping for any explanation but the truth 12. Icon to the holy flip-flops in word meanings and arguments 13. Icon to the kill-the-messenger-in-worshipful-behalf-of-mary strategy 14. Icon to the fantasized divine right, to be correct, pristinely sanctified & perfectly flawless in all respects in all cases all the time, regardless of the REAL TRUTH. 15. Icon to chronic & obsessive inconsistency. 17. Icon to the undivine right of terminal snootiness to the max. 18. Golden bucket icon to the undivine right of throwing rocks at proddys.

142 posted on 01/15/2011 11:34:11 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: geologist; Quix
Is this discussion done in/with love for each other held in mind and answers created in such a way as to be kind and show loving intentions?

Speaking The Truth is love. As you see many come vehemently against it. Nothing new under the sun. Truth doesn't bow to evil nor will It be suppressed by it. PC is the opposite of Truth.
143 posted on 01/15/2011 11:37:15 AM PST by presently no screen name
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To: geologist

Thanks for your Biblical, wise and accurate words yet again.

However, Christ did at times call folks

—white washed tombs;
—vipers;
—sons of satan.

When I encounter similar attitudes as plagued Him, I’m willing to call a spade a spade.

Yeah, there’s plenty room for sobering error and we will certainly be judged according to the criteria we use.

Nevertheless, a lot of these obnoxious sorts have been throwing irrational and VERY UNBIBLICAL rocks my direction for a LOT of years. The evidence they have listed hereon is extensive in terms of the absurdities, destructiveness etc.

I think your point about insecurities is very apt. However, these characters are also very very VERY STRONG personalities regardless of their fragilities in various areas.

If they can so brazenly and so relentlessly throw out their garbage making ALMIGHTY GOD out to be a liar about HIS EVERLASTING PROMISES TO ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND JACOB

then they can jolly well learn to handle the responses such outrages engender.

imho.


144 posted on 01/15/2011 11:40:19 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: presently no screen name

INDEED.

THX.


145 posted on 01/15/2011 11:42:40 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: MarkBsnr

You must think I keep track!

LOL.


146 posted on 01/15/2011 11:44:01 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: topcat54

Get your first nickle from satan - he started distorting Truth in the garden. Nothing new under the Sun.

Psalm 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love you.

Psalm 29:11 The LORD gives strength to his people; the LORD blesses his people with peace.

Psalm 102:14 For her stones are dear to your servants; her very dust moves them to pity.

Isaiah 66:10 “Rejoice with Jerusalem and be glad for her, all you who love her; rejoice greatly with her, all you who mourn over her.

Jeremiah 29:7 Also, seek the peace and prosperity of the city to which I have carried you into exile. Pray to the LORD for it, because if it prospers, you too will prosper.”


147 posted on 01/15/2011 11:45:25 AM PST by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name

Fascinating . . .

how “pimping”

outrageous assertions that make ALMIGHTY GOD OUT TO BE A LIAR

is evidently considered quite “Christian.”

Sheesh. What hubris!


148 posted on 01/15/2011 11:47:35 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Vegasrugrat
All that you posted is true, unless you think that those scriptures were intended to mean only those of Faith. God chose all mankind to be His children, and gave that same gift to all of us. It is nonetheless true that only those who (metaphorically speaking) "open that door when Jesus knocks" who actually receive this gift that God gave to all of us.

When God made man it was that we should all be His children, He chose us, over the animals, over the angels, to be His children. All of us. The smaller number who, after "The Fall," have received Christ's gift through Faith are not the only ones to whom God offers this gift, nor are we alone "the elect" as God makes this offer to all mankind.

That is the difference between the Truth of Scripture's teaching, and the Calvinist twist which would make the "saved" somehow special. We are just as vile a pack of sinners as are those who have not Faith. We are merely saved because of our Faith. Anyone who says otherwise makes a liar out of Christ, and diminishes what He accomplished on the cross.

149 posted on 01/15/2011 11:54:33 AM PST by Gargantua (Palin ~ Bachmann 2012... just call it "Pa-Bach!" (AKA "Liberal Head Cemtex"))
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To: geologist
God is in them and will open their eyes as they are ready for knowledge and growth. They will be spending time in His Word if they are seeking in truth.

Perhaps I am being simplistic but I trust God to be Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent, and He will enlighten all who in truth seek to know Him.

Blessed be the LORD!

Might be simplistic, but still truthful.

150 posted on 01/15/2011 12:00:33 PM PST by Vegasrugrat
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